Microsoft + Collabora Working To Map OpenGL/OpenCL Over DirectX 12

[davibu]

I personally like it. Especially if you are able to make D3D12 Software on Linux with Mesa. Which means more devs can use Linux, if they like.

For OpenGL over DirectX12, I wonder who will be faster, Zink or Microsoft. I personally don't see a problem on having OpenGL on top of DirectX 12 in the end more OpenGL Software will run on DirectX12 only machines and that means more freedom for the developer to choose OpenGL over DirectX.

Better than Apple just deprecating OpenGL and pushing everyone on their own proprietary API. Not even supporting Vulkan.

[CochainComplex]

Keep in mind there are devices (or will be in the future) which don't support Vulkan but do support D3D12. It is always nice to have a compatibility layer for those devices. It is actually a boon, providing OpenGL and OpenCL to devices/drivers which otherwise wouldn't have the ability to run that code. Plus they will be contributing to MESA, so what's not to like?

Im not so enthusiastic about this for the following reasons.

1. Vulkan supports way more devices than D3D12 already. It is opensource so if the devices are not supported it is just a question of user base and time to have it. D3D12 does not have this mechanism - so it is MS good will to extend support. Therefore the freedom option should get support.
2. People working in the Opensource fields which are able to contribute to such a layer project are mostlikely able to contribute (if not already) to OpenGl to Vulkan Projects. If only 1 out of 10 will switch to the other Project 10% of potential good code is also not coming promoting Vulkan.
3. People developing OpenGL stuff might be attracted to switch from Ogl to DX instead of Vulkan. Migration Chain from OpenGL to its spiritual successor might break.
4. Microsoft abuses free Development forces for their own needs - or does any of this contributers get any penny of the better market position achieved by this project?

You remember that we already had once the war between closed and open GFX Api? (DX vs OpenGL)
...and the reason why we still need Projects like Wine, DXVK, vkd3d or a windows license is the very fact that DX won that race.

We should promote Vulkan and condem any Microsoft "opensource" approach as much as possible or we will once again need some DX13 to Vulkan 2 Layer in the future for HalfLife 4, AC Shogun, call a Triple A Game of the future of your choice ...

We will have to deal the next two decades with (mostly) worse ports or the tinkering of making drm games running without getting baned. And I fear the later part will get even worse.


p.s.:Which devices not supporting Vulkan but D12 do you mean?

[CochainComplex]

D3D12 is more ore less the equivalent of Vulkan

Exactly and why not supporting the open, free, libre Version instead?

Don't get me wrong - DX12 performs great but we cant use it on the devices or more precisely OS's which we want to have without the grace of a monopoly or decades of work/reengineering/faking to make it run. Try to imagine the working hours for wine, dxvk, d9vk, lutris just to fake the microsoft ecosystem.

[dragon321]

This plus VKD3D and we'll get OpenGL from Microsoft and Collabora on Vulkan

To be honest I'm pretty surprised. OpenGL is deprecated in Windows since Vista (if I'm not wrong) and works because drivers developers install their own implementation. Now Microsoft will support OpenGL again? Interesting.

[skeevy420]

Exactly and why not supporting the open, free, libre Version instead?

Don't get me wrong - DX12 performs great but we cant use it on the devices or more precisely OS's which we want to have without the grace of a monopoly or decades of work/reengineering/faking to make it run. Try to imagine the working hours for wine, dxvk, d9vk, lutris just to "remake" the microsoft ecosystem.

I imagine they'll run into walls while MS keeps on running.

[QwertyChouskie]

MS has been actively supporting ANGLE for quite some time, I just see this as a higher-performance version. Might even just be mainly for WebGL on their XBOnes without terrible performance, or maybe legacy games seeing quick XBox ports (ANGLE is quite slow for general-purpose code, and is really only acceptable for code that is optimized specifically for running over ANGLE).

That being said, SuperTuxKart uses OGL3... STK on XBox? If that happens, I'm happy

(Also, with the way Mesa components tend to fit together, this will probably indirectly help Zink be more feature-complete and performant too. Anyways, this is MS's money, if it does end up being a waste and has no good use, what do I care? lol

[You-]

Who ever funds the developers will get what they funded, so we cant blame microsoft for doing this, or for Collabora accepting their monies.

It may not benefit the linux community directly but it is possible that as a side effect there are improvements made to the overall stack which benefit the linux community.

(OSS is not just Unix/Linux. A lot of OSS users are also on proprietary platforms)

[QwertyChouskie]

Just ready through the Collabora article, it gives a good look at MS's main use-case for this layer:

Secondly, we need to work on application compatibility. For now we will be focusing on productivity applications.

Sounds like a way to run CAD/CAM applications on a Windows 10X-style base, for businesses that want a locked-down/containerized Windows environment. Makes sense, even though 10X's interface is very purpose-built, the underlying system could be very appealing for businesses if MS makes a version with a more 10-like interface.

[TemplarGR]

I never understand why people get upset by news like this. Opensource does not work like closed source. People seem to not understand it, even after decades and decades of opensource development. In opensource, people work on what they want. You like their work? Fine, you can benefit from it, no? Fine, don't use it. It is not like Microsoft funded Linus Torvalds to scrap the Linux kernel or anything, so why people complain?

I repeat because people are poor readers: There are devices that either don't have OpenGL/CL/Vulkan drivers at all, or have really poor native support, but they have great D3D12 support (because they are from Microsoft, duh!). There are 2 options, you either create a situation where a large portion of users do not have access to Khronos APIs (and thus make them less attractive to use for application developers), or you create a layer to run them over D3D12 (and thus make Khronos APIs more universal and thus more attractive to use). It is that simple. Why people complain about this? It is literally bringing support for Khronos Open Standards to devices that don't have support for those standards, or have poor support. It is something. And you are not paying for this, and you are not working on this. It does not affect you or Linux in any way, shape, or form. You just have to complain because "Microsoft is evil" (even though Opensource companies like Google are far more evil....)

Also, the prospect of contributing work towards making MESA OpenCL 1.2 compatible is really great and important and a great boon for Linux. Clover is the only way we are going to have universal OpenCL support out of the box, without having to resort to external libs, opensource or binary, with all their incompatibilities and headaches. This will drive more OpenCL 1.2 app adoption (since Linux userspace devs will have knowledge that the vast majority of desktop machines will have a baseline of 1.2 CL support. Perhaps we will see more desktop apps try to utilize it in various areas to improve the desktop, like how they utilize OpenGL these days to make composite desktops a universal thing.

[ElectricPrism]

Embrace

Extend

Extinguish

Handicapping OpenGL by forcing developers to use a "Older Version" like Apple did will give Direct X a lead at claiming greater performance.

Additionally they can add features or obfuscate making it difficult for users of such a layer to ever "leave".

And finally, who is the one who decides when a software update gets pushed. The OpenGL community will likely have no authority or power to deliver to users the experience and features that are intended. Having Microsoft in the middle only complicates the delivery process like when Apple held a Steam Client update for almost 1 year from going out to users with no explanation.