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Apple Deprecates OpenGL & OpenCL

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    Weasel
    Senior Member

  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    It was Windows 7 actually. You can "easily enable NTVDM mode in windows 10 too!", but it's some kind of emulation and it's not the real thing like it is in XP where it's actually run natively.

    And from personal experience this layer is a crapshoot, you're much better off running the whole thing in a VM (or PC) with XP or older Windows installed in it.
    Well for most 16-bit apps (remember Windows tries to support DOS apps too with NTVDM, not just Windows apps), you *cannot* run them without "emulation", because the CPU doesn't support real mode or unreal mode or virtual real mode or whatever, not from long mode. I don't know if it's even possible. Wine, for example, can run only Windows protected mode 16-bit apps (even on 64-bit kernel!). It can not run DOS apps without an emulator like DOSBox. This is not on Microsoft but the CPU.

    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    I wasn't, I was talking of the meaning of deprecation, Windows has deprecated and removed a bunch of stuff too, causing annoyances to users.
    Well, breaking drivers is more fine, even Linux does it all the time (they have to be recompiled).

    Keep in mind that Linux (the kernel) has a policy to never (literally, never) remove or break userland APIs (unless they're too new and fatal flaw). Yes, many APIs are deprecated, and usually renamed to old_ prefix, like old_stat -- but they continue to exist, and are not removed.

    That was my entire point: Microsoft are similar and very rarely remove. They deprecate APIs, but they don't remove them, just like Linux. Hence "Apple are not Microsoft" in that case, because Apple *do* remove.

    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    For example, DirectMusic and DirectSound are part of DirectX api wich is as userspace-facing as OpenGL, and they are dead or reduced to a handfew of functions left just for basic compatibility.

    As I said, not 100% of the deprecated APIs have been removed, some were, some are still waiting to be removed.


    That deprecation implies that something will be removed eventually.
    No, see my point above. The APIs you gave as examples are not removed and not left "for basic compatibility", whatever that means. DirectMusic still works, since games like Gothic 1 still have music.

    In fact more like 99% of deprecated APIs have *not* been removed and will probably never be. Obviously I'm not stating 100% because the Windows API ecosystem is absolutely huge and I can't know all of it but I've yet to see one.

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  • starshipeleven
    Premium Supporter

  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by grok View Post
    Er, do you know what the "V" stands for in NTVDM?
    Even running a DOS prompt in Windows 3.0 386 mode (or Windows 2.1 386 edition) goes through a thin "virtualization" layer. But it's pretty native up to Windows 9x where it still had direct access to hardware (LPT, COM most notably and also adlib/soundblaster). NT/2K/XP lock it down somewhat (the NTVDM, you can't even print directly), then Vista/7/8/10's modern graphics stacks don't allow raw CGA/EGA/VGA/SVGA anymore.
    I'm fuzzy about names and actual specifics, I was basing this off memories of when I had to deal with running 16bit applications, which thankfully happened the last time to me between Windows 7 and 8.

    With XP all was fine, from Win7 onwards running 16bit applications has never worked reliably even with office applications I worked with. Never tried games at all.

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  • grok
    Senior Member

  • grok
    replied
    I like this discussion.

    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    It was Windows 7 actually. You can "easily enable NTVDM mode in windows 10 too!", but it's some kind of emulation and it's not the real thing like it is in XP where it's actually run natively.

    And from personal experience this layer is a crapshoot, you're much better off running the whole thing in a VM (or PC) with XP or older Windows installed in it.
    Er, do you know what the "V" stands for in NTVDM?
    Even running a DOS prompt in Windows 3.0 386 mode (or Windows 2.1 386 edition) goes through a thin "virtualization" layer. But it's pretty native up to Windows 9x where it still had direct access to hardware (LPT, COM most notably and also adlib/soundblaster). NT/2K/XP lock it down somewhat (the NTVDM, you can't even print directly), then Vista/7/8/10's modern graphics stacks don't allow raw CGA/EGA/VGA/SVGA anymore.


    It was not perfect in XP either by the way but I liked that it could run a number of DOS games even with the limitations. (I casually learned years after abandoning Windows 7, that if you run an XP graphics driver in Windows 7 you can run DOS games there as well! but I haven't tested this.)
    grok
    Senior Member
    Last edited by grok; 09 June 2018, 12:05 PM.

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  • starshipeleven
    Premium Supporter

  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    I'll need a source for that one. 32-bit versions of Windows still support with NTVDM, and that's a completely different thing, since it's a subsystem.
    It was Windows 7 actually. You can "easily enable NTVDM mode in windows 10 too!", but it's some kind of emulation and it's not the real thing like it is in XP where it's actually run natively.

    And from personal experience this layer is a crapshoot, you're much better off running the whole thing in a VM (or PC) with XP or older Windows installed in it.

    Dude nobody cares about driver APIs, we were talking about userland APIs.
    I wasn't, I was talking of the meaning of deprecation, Windows has deprecated and removed a bunch of stuff too, causing annoyances to users.

    Windows always relied on its ecosystem and retrocompatibility though, so they never made such strong changes like Apple said they will do. Apple is a religion so they can get away with breaking retrocompatibility or making inferior shit hardware that just looks cool.

    The reason driver APIs are irrelevant is because they are tied to hardware, while most userland applications are not.
    The API's I've talked about are both kernel-to-driver interfaces OR userspace APIs. They are NOT tied to hardware in any way or sense, they are usually higher-level interfaces offloading then on the actual drivers which would actually run the hardware.

    For example, DirectMusic and DirectSound are part of DirectX api wich is as userspace-facing as OpenGL, and they are dead or reduced to a handfew of functions left just for basic compatibility.

    Thanks for proving my point? Those APIs are deprecated but not removed and they still work.
    As I said, not 100% of the deprecated APIs have been removed, some were, some are still waiting to be removed.


    Really, what is your point here?!?
    That deprecation implies that something will be removed eventually.

    Leave a comment:

  • Weasel
    Senior Member

  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    For example the whole 16bit mode ain't available any more from at least Win8 onwards (maybe also Win7). 16bit applications can suck it, regardless of the system APIs they are calling they won't even start.
    I'll need a source for that one. 32-bit versions of Windows still support with NTVDM, and that's a completely different thing, since it's a subsystem.

    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    The graphic drivers APIs did change again between Win7 and win8, and the old API was deprecated, in Win10 it's absent alltogether and this means old drivers using it don't work anymore in it. For example Microsoft had to go banging on Intel's door to get a hacked-up HD3000 driver that would at least provide 2D acceleration and screen resolution change support, which is distributed ONLY through Windows 10 updates. Main issue with it is that it does not support dual graphics properly, so all laptops with it will have good times.

    Sound cards, don't get me started on this bullshit. I can get dozens of sound cards for a few bucks on Ebay that will work perfectly fine on Linux just because their windows drivers use an old API that was deprecated and removed at some point in time.
    Dude nobody cares about driver APIs, we were talking about userland APIs. The reason driver APIs are irrelevant is because they are tied to hardware, while most userland applications are not.

    You know, like what OpenGL is. It's userland API.

    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    For example, DirectMusic API? It's dead in 64bit Windows 7 and any Windows 8.
    DirectSound? Dead in Windows 8

    And so on. Maybe not all are dead yet, but if you want to look at some that are dead, that's where you should look at.
    Thanks for proving my point? Those APIs are deprecated but not removed and they still work. (not to mention MS didn't state they will be removed, if ever, not even in your link)

    Really, what is your point here?!?

    Leave a comment:

  • starshipeleven
    Premium Supporter

  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    There are APIs from the Win16 era that are still around, despite being "deprecated" since Windows 95. Curious to know which one you're referring to?
    For example the whole 16bit mode ain't available any more from at least Win8 onwards (maybe also Win7). 16bit applications can suck it, regardless of the system APIs they are calling they won't even start.

    The graphic drivers APIs did change again between Win7 and win8, and the old API was deprecated, in Win10 it's absent alltogether and this means old drivers using it don't work anymore in it. For example Microsoft had to go banging on Intel's door to get a hacked-up HD3000 driver that would at least provide 2D acceleration and screen resolution change support, which is distributed ONLY through Windows 10 updates. Main issue with it is that it does not support dual graphics properly, so all laptops with it will have good times.

    Sound cards, don't get me started on this bullshit. I can get dozens of sound cards for a few bucks on Ebay that will work perfectly fine on Linux just because their windows drivers use an old API that was deprecated and removed at some point in time.

    There must be something about printer drivers too as these are pretty much guaranteed to break if used in a Windows version 2 versions later the last supported one, and have a 50% chance of not working at all on the Windows version after the last one they officially supported.

    You can find a list of deprecated APIs here at the end of the page https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx

    For example, DirectMusic API? It's dead in 64bit Windows 7 and any Windows 8.
    DirectSound? Dead in Windows 8

    And so on. Maybe not all are dead yet, but if you want to look at some that are dead, that's where you should look at.

    For example, GetProfileString.
    I don't find anything stating that it is deprecated. It only says it is still offered for compatibility with 16bit applications (that curiously can't run at all in modern Windows anyway), and discourages its use.

    But I know of applications (portable ones usually) that still use it or use something similar (I think Notepad++ uses it), because writing their settings in the windows registry is not something they can afford.
    starshipeleven
    Premium Supporter
    Last edited by starshipeleven; 09 June 2018, 09:28 AM.

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  • Weasel
    Senior Member

  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    Deprecation is still deprecation even for MS, they might have longer deprecation times, but once something is deprecated it eventually gets the axe.
    There are APIs from the Win16 era that are still around, despite being "deprecated" since Windows 95. Curious to know which one you're referring to?

    For example, GetProfileString.

    Leave a comment:

  • starshipeleven
    Premium Supporter

  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by grok View Post
    Or Microsoft themselves offers an upgrade from S to Pro, except this seems "free" on their high end products but not free at all on third party low end laptops.
    This won't change a damn. It either means the S version is a fail, or that people will complain about it.

    Maybe the problem is they want the dumbed down users, those who will only run Edge and the default software etc. Small problem with that : these users tend to never install any software at all on a PC. Hence the store, and crap in the start menu : seriously there's a picture of Mickey Mouse in there, an ad for some other kiddy game, an ad for some war game.
    Fine but for a user who never installs anything on their PC, it's still more complicated to use an online-account and download things than to do nothing at all and click on Edge to run Edge, on Word to run Word, etc.
    1. users that never install anything on PC are irrelevant in the discussion about people installing stuff in their PC
    2. Windows store requires an online account just like any other store
    3. most of such basic people are perfectly fine with a tablet, many (especially in asia) are ok even with a big smartphone, and don't need to buy an actual PC at all.

    That or they'll try to win by attrition : won't fool millions of existing PC users, but will ensnare first time PC users who have Windows 10 as their first desktop operating systems. That'll be tens of millions, then hundreds of millions people possibly.
    Nonsense, pretty much every first-time PC user will have Windows 10 on their first PC if they buy new hardware.
    To get a PC with Windows 7 or even Windows 8 you would need to actually search for it specifically.

    People beginning their PC experience with Linux are at best as rare as linux users (as again there is no way to get a PC with Linux on it unless you are specifically searching for it and buy online), which means they are going to be irrelevant.

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  • starshipeleven
    Premium Supporter

  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by grok View Post
    Deprecated could also mean they just won't update their OpenGL : no OpenGL 4.6, or future versions like 4.7 or 5.0 if these ever come out.
    That's not how it works. Deprecation is a state where something is still there for a while but WILL be removed.

    It's a time that is supposed to help software developers by not just dropping something they require overnight (and causing massive breakage), but giving them time to adapt and migrate their applications.

    But Apple is not Microsoft.
    Deprecation is still deprecation even for MS, they might have longer deprecation times, but once something is deprecated it eventually gets the axe.

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  • Weasel
    Senior Member

  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by grok View Post
    Deprecated could also mean they just won't update their OpenGL : no OpenGL 4.6, or future versions like 4.7 or 5.0 if these ever come out.
    But Apple is not Microsoft. Apple explicitly said in the linked article that they will drop it in the future. It'll be more surprising if they don't.

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