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  • #71
    Originally posted by ATFx View Post

    No offense its kind of unbelievable such an offensive comparison, is said by said supporter of said platform,
    that more inlines to what a windows user would make. To bash a much more Intelligent Community
    comparing to the Dumbest people on the Planet.
    I've never seen or heard Windows users bash Linux. It's 100% true on the opposite side, including insults and ridicule ("dumbest people on the planet"). You tried to insult Windows users but turns out you've missed the log in your own eye.

    Linux zealots continue to prove who they really are. Haters, offensive people with the elitism complex.

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    • #72
      Originally posted by CochainComplex View Post

      Please tell me which game does not work? How can you be sure thats the hardware?
      Dirt Showdown that i remember from top my head.

      And no, i can't be sure its hardware or not.
      When I upgraded only GPU, XORG and drivers changed.
      But then, sucky drivers from AMD could be problem, which is still AMD's issue.
      Machine does hang once every so often, like once or twice a month when I play games.
      But otherwise seems stable.

      With that said, I can recommend AMD Open Source GPU. They are good enough for the purpose and generally just work.
      At least to fellow Gentoo users, who know how to deal with Linux.

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      • #73
        Originally posted by birdie View Post

        I've never seen or heard Windows users bash Linux. It's 100% true on the opposite side,
        including insults and ridicule ("dumbest people on the planet"). You tried to insult Windows users but turns out you've missed the log in your own eye.

        Linux zealots continue to prove who they really are. Haters, offensive people with the elitism complex.
        ya idkwtf to call you. "elitism complex" you make no sense. You're the only one looking for Trouble making Stupid Comparisons.
        It takes more then a Birdie that meets the Eye to realize when you are one, maybe that was the purpose of being a flipoff.
        Last edited by ATFx; 12 April 2022, 08:01 AM.

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        • #74
          Originally posted by ATFx View Post

          ya idkwtf to call you. "elitism complex" you make no sense. You're the only one looking for Trouble making Stupid Comparisons.
          It takes more then a Birdie that meets the Eye to realize when you are one, maybe that was the purpose of being a flipoff.
          First, you insulted Windows users, now you've insulted me personally. Kudos for staying true to what I said about Open Source zealots. Congrats.

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          • #75
            Originally posted by Rabiator View Post
            3. Sounds a bit like the DLL Hell under Windows. But I don't see a perfect solution here, for either OS. I guess you can just install every library version in parallel, if you don't mind the bloat. An example would be several .NET versions installed on one Windows PC. Or you can specify a minimum version number and trust that future changes won't break the particular API you're using. Fat chance, I know.

            4. With some Ubuntu LTS or enterprise Linux version, you can get 5 years+ support with a more conservative update policy.
            Also, Microsoft tends to change their driver model from major release to major release (such as Win2000 => XP => Win7), which usually breaks drivers for the previous version. Some hardware makers follow up with adapted drivers, others don't and a switch of the OS requires new hardware too.
            Edit: Sometimes, the Linux kernel developers throw out support for really old hardware too. Which usually gets reported on Phoronix. But that tends to be 20 years+ old stuff. Imagine the ATI 9000 series of graphics cards had been supported up to Windows 10, and would only be kicked out now with Windows 11. That would be 18 years of support and comparable.
            Unfortunately the problem with LTS distros is they are much worse than rolling distros if you talk about Linux desktop specifically because the kernel is Monolithic and the graphics driver is hence tied to Kernel versions and due to the pace of Linux development along with release cycle of actual graphical cards it's not uncommon that you need to use latest kernel for best experience.

            I have said this before and I will say it again. The elephant in the room here is the fact that unlike MacOSX or Windows, Linux has no stable interface for graphics drivers. This means even if we are talking about OS drivers, they always have to distributed in the kernel tree where as with Windows you can easily install the latest graphics drivers (I.e. when new GFX card comes out) even if you are running a system 10 years old. Then factor in all of the fragmentation in distros....


            In my opnion this problem in itself means that Linux will never be a desktop OS unless it's on locked down walled garden hardware that a company controls (I.e. steam deck)

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            • #76
              Originally posted by Developer12 View Post

              Point being, nobody is going to step in to support anything out of tree. It will be broken frequently and without remorse.
              And who asked for that?

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              • #77
                Originally posted by sinepgib View Post

                And who asked for that?
                They were arguing that linux constantly breaking their driver interface compatibility created a maintenance burden that the linux devs had to support. They don't.

                The alternative answer is "get into the kernel tree and then you won't have breakage" but nvidia don't listen to that.

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                • #78
                  Originally posted by Developer12 View Post

                  They were arguing that linux constantly breaking their driver interface compatibility created a maintenance burden that the linux devs had to support. They don't.
                  Who did? I can tell you what _I_ claimed, which is that it creates a maintenance burden that nvidia (and other out-of-tree vendors) have to support.
                  Linux never claimed to support out of tree drivers, explicitly discouraged it, so I wouldn't say they "have" to support anything. They only need to deliver what they promise, and they didn't promise they'd play well with out of tree drivers at the expense of other priorities.

                  Originally posted by Developer12 View Post
                  The alternative answer is "get into the kernel tree and then you won't have breakage" but nvidia don't listen to that.
                  nvidia may very well be listening and just not be that simple to open source an existing driver, it may be possible (actually, the most likely scenario) that writing one from scratch means an objective decrease in user experience for a while until it catches up with the old one.
                  Other vendors may be pressed by other issues, such as speed to market and development costs. Happens with crappy embedded vendors that just write crappy drivers fast and dump that because there's a single kernel dev for the whole project.
                  Now, it's not a defense in the moral sense, but rather an explanation of why they may not be taking that road. The advantage is obvious. The disadvantages are still there, too.

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                  • #79
                    Originally posted by Developer12 View Post

                    They were arguing that linux constantly breaking their driver interface compatibility created a maintenance burden that the linux devs had to support. They don't.

                    The alternative answer is "get into the kernel tree and then you won't have breakage" but nvidia don't listen to that.
                    You're implying kernel hackers, in case NVIDIA open sources its drivers, will do maintenance. This is a 100% false statement. Both AMD and Intel have their own employees do that. Outsiders barely touch their graphics drivers kernel code. Valve has helped here and there but that's not because Valve is a good company, they have their own interests. Open Sourcing drivers will cost NVIDIA a whole lot more than having their own closed source drivers. Yes, RedHat has nouveau hackers but we are talking at most about three? Five people? This is far from enough to maintain the huge amount of code.

                    Linux kernel 5.17, drivers/gpu/drm/amd - over 265 megabytes of code. And that's their new driver only.

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                    • #80
                      Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                      I have said this before and I will say it again. The elephant in the room here is the fact that unlike MacOSX or Windows, Linux has no stable interface for graphics drivers. This means even if we are talking about OS drivers, they always have to distributed in the kernel tree where as with Windows you can easily install the latest graphics drivers (I.e. when new GFX card comes out) even if you are running a system 10 years old. Then factor in all of the fragmentation in distros....
                      Well, it isn't elephant. It is design choice. Choice that makes things simpler and easier to maintain. There are good reasons to do this like this. And there is easy solution for this issue - get driver into main kernel tree. It solves all issues.
                      https://github.com/torvalds/linux/bl...i-nonsense.rst

                      And no, Windows doesn't have stable interface for graphics drivers. Microsoft updates WDDM from time to time and some of those changes can break things. Most people don't care since they use recent drivers and it works without bigger issues, but try to install very old drivers on up to date system or new drivers on old system and see what happens.

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