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Nouveau Still Pushing Forward In 2020 Thanks To Red Hat But Community Developers Leaving

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  • #51
    NVIDIA doesn't want FOSS drivers because that would eliminate their ability to segment the market the way they like it.

    Anyone defending this shitty company might as well play Space Invaders in hell while sucking Huang's cock.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by blackiwid View Post

      So how is the support if I install a current Fedora version or upgrade it when it's new and the current kernel is to new or the driver is to old rather and there is no current one to work and the distro starts with a black screen.

      You either need to install special Nvidia Linux versions like Ubuntu that always keeps it kernel as old as possible (which then maybe not supports other hardware you have) or do much hand work to manually install drivers on the konsole like a animal.

      So you have to use special linux versions that are specifically designed to be good for Nvidia you just don't understand that because you made this chances already like a frog in the water not even noticing it. That you forgo many features or speed or bugfixes because you are so invested in Nvidia and build your linux world around Nvidia.

      No Ubuntu Support is maybe arguably good for Nvidia "Linux" support in general can be horrible. Of course you would then say it's Fedora fault, but that is wrong because they are a general Linux distribution so they can't just deliver bad support for Intel and AMD with old Kernels therefor old drivers from that companies just to support Nvidia with their need of old kernels.

      But of course it's your choice, you also can buy a knife and cut of 4 fingers of you, freedom is nice? I guess so yes, have fun cutting of your fingers and enjoy your freedom it's nice that you are allowed to enjoy hurting yourself.

      And I wonder how your vga driver work when a current compisor like gnome-shell starts, yes Distros could detect it and come with a different desktop to install their driver, but Linux distros / devs have also no obligation to do any extra work to support Nvidia. So yes that is a 2way street.
      This argument is as old as Linux itself! Its basically an argument about user experience. There are a few of schools of thought on this:
      1. Microsoft - Keep all things compatible as much as possible... when in doubt support through virtualization (ex. 16-bit code, win9x code on NT, etc.)
      2. Apple - All code and hardware is tied together effectively per product gen... when that hardware gen is outdated... toss everything in the trash and move on
      3. BSD - You want compatibility? Here is the list of what you can buy...
      4. Linux - Keep all things compatible... until its not... then blame the broken software
      The Linux mentality is interesting and I cant fault it, the number of times the Linux kernel has broken ABI and or other kernel interfaces is exceptional. Its not wrong but it does affect the user experience. Now the vast majority of Linux "users" are actually large corporations running SaaS, web or other services. They either re-fractor their code, or more often "support" (ie. pay for) a FOSS dev or dev team to fix the issue upstream.

      Returning to the topic, I find it more interesting how quickly (and more importantly at all) groups like Nvidia have actually fixed their drivers when the Linux kernel changed and broke some key interface.

      Note: this does not only affect Nvidia, look at what they did to OpenZFS recently. The linux kernel has no love, even for FOSS software!

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      • #53
        Originally posted by mroche View Post
        The point of Linux is to be free for whatever your use case may be. That includes utilizing closed-source software and proprietary hardware.
        No that's not the point of Linux at all. That's just a point you made up to make yourself feel better about being a bugman with no value system other than Consume Product™.

        Originally posted by mroche View Post
        I am free to use the software that I choose. I am also free to use the hardware that I choose.
        'Muh Freedoms.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by mroche View Post
          Using a closed-source or proprietary product does not put a blanket ban on you supporting an ecosystem which is what this statement implies. That was the point I was making. When it comes to the choice of NVIDIA, AMD, or Intel, it is a complex situation for people who need to do more than look at a browser or word processor. It's totally fine for people to choose solely on the principle of open-source or more-free, but it is also just as valid to choose on the principle of best value for oneself outside of those reasons.
          Mike
          Generally speaking of course you are free to buy Nvidia, but just because you are incentiviced and given in to buy products from them by their market dominated nearly monopoly doesn't mean that you have to defend their bad behaviour. Like if you are member of the cathlic church you don't have to be pro raping children, right?

          For me it's more a spirit thing, Linux drivers is just a example of a bigger problem, even on windows they are a peace of shit, with their attempt to create a Nvidia only monitor section with their Gsync shit, and intentionally not supporting freesync/adaptivesync.

          Then their money grab deals with some companies that get exclusive freesync support when they pay Nvidia money to "certify" them. They are the enemy of their customers, even if you don't use Linux. So yes you maybe get a more fps out of a card or better energy efficiency per buck, but then afterwards you just have to buy either 200 dollar more expensive monitor than you can sell with big money loss if you ever want to have a card from a different company, or only get maybe 1/3 of the freesync monitors that work with nvidia since a few months or a year or so, before that not even that was a option.

          But again if you want to play games on a system you use many proprietary software on that pc anyway so it's a "tainted" pc anyway. Most at least techy people have more than 1 pc so of course it's fine if you buy nvidia for that gaming linux pc. I just would not trust that pc and not use it for anything else than gaming that is all. And I don't would start to defend Nvidia from their bad behaviour just because I use one of their products to get a job done.

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          • #55
            if there is closed driver options it's good enough, but look at Androidx86 there is only open source driver or nothing, unless Nvidia will see some business here.. So here I'm glad that non official drivers exists, we need culture change and make open source driver for major OSes too to really change ecosystem.

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            • #56
              Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
              And I don't would start to defend Nvidia from their bad behaviour just because I use one of their products to get a job done.
              These "I love open source and Nvidia are fucking great" comments are highly suspicious. Nvidia are exactly the kind of company that would shill and bot themselves some "good PR".

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              • #57
                I’m so grateful that AMD and Intel have open drivers because I can just boot my OS and start using it instead of having to fiddle with proprietary ones.

                I pray Nvidia will see sense so that their users can have a similar experience.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by xinorom View Post
                  No that's not the point of Linux at all. That's just a point you made up to make yourself feel better about being a bugman with no value system other than Consume Product™.
                  Believe what you will about someone you don't know. But feel free to be a case study in the toxicity of the internet.

                  Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                  Generally speaking of course you are free to buy Nvidia, but just because you are incentiviced and given in to buy products from them by their market dominated nearly monopoly doesn't mean that you have to defend their bad behaviour.
                  I don't recall any of my statements defending NVIDIA for their practices. My statements are about defending a user's and consumer's right to choose based on what they value, and that doesn't prevent them from being supportive and a fan of Linux just because they didn't purchase a solution from a vendor with a friendlier attitude to Linux and open-source.

                  Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                  For me it's more a spirit thing
                  I totally get that and respect that perspective. For most things I do open-source and free software plays a non-trivial role in my decisions. There are just other areas I am willing to or need to compromise on to achieve the results I'm looking for. Do I like all of the things NVIDIA does/has done? Absolutely not. That same sentiment applies to any vendor I deal with, no corporation or individual is perfect.

                  For the work I do, particularly in the computer graphics space, there is little room to go outside of NVIDIA. They generally provide the best DCC application support (and I'm not talking about driver certification, but actual DCC stability with both consumer and enterprise hardware, but obligatory YMMV) and the software stack they have built over the years has been a key driver in adoption/integration by vendors and developers. AMD has been making good strides in playing catch-up with ROCm, HIP, and that ecosystem. But it's still not as simple to get started with, "universal" in the sense of ease of packaging and deployment, and there are hardware aspects that NVIDIA provides that aren't there yet or don't exist in AMD cards (RTX is obvious but not what I'm talking about).

                  As an example, with the Turing lineup NVIDIA improved the cards' performance in encoding video streams at 8K with NVENC, a feature that's been around since Pascal. This is something that interested us (at my last employer) a lot as all of our workstations are PCoIP systems. With an upcoming update/refresh from our thin-client provider this would potentially allow us to upgrade our artists' workstations from dual 2560x1600 displays to dual 4K monitors which is huge for the work we do and are planning on doing. Assuming the color accuracy and encoding bandwidth met our standards, of course. In other areas, NVIDIA is very receptive to enterprise needs and requests and is pretty good to work with, including adding custom driver bits for us to test potential workflows with our setup. This isn't to paint a rosy picture of team green, there have been situations (according to my colleagues) where the driver bit them in unexpected ways.

                  This is where it gets into more of the crux of the issue. On Windows, consumer support from NVIDIA is great as gaming is a first class citizen and integral part of the community, with many developer institutions and engine authors working on games that NVIDIA can work closely with to make sure the games run as smoothly as possible for consumers. On Linux, whether we as consumers like it or not, enterprise with, for example: HPC, machine learning/AI, and proprietary applications is where NVIDIA stands to make the most gain. So their focus on making sure that their driver is stable for the majority of that field (running RHEL/CentOS, Ubuntu LTS, SUSE like distributions) and providing a well built and targeted library support ecosystem makes a lot of business sense. Support for the general consumer is not the main priority. For the driver, the approach to Linux is more like it is on Windows considering graphics drivers aren't built into the NT kernel.

                  Something people often bring up is kernel breakage when a new kernel release drops as a result of the nonexistent upstream and NVIDIA hasn't released a patch for it. For some folks, myself included, this is negligible for our setups as we don't run bleeding edge. For my personal workstation (which I'm typing this on), I have one 2.5K monitor running an X11 GNOME session on RHEL 8. This solution is rock solid and fantastic, and I avoid a lot of the issues that people can have with the NVIDIA driver (lack of proper Optimus, Wayland, potential multi-monitor issues etc). Compatibility and stability is a major focus of my environments. But I understand that when those kernel breaks or general bugs happen it can be incredibly frustrating for the people experiencing it. My situation and environment is not everyone else's situation and environment. For the open-source community as a whole, I'm really hoping for some good news from NVIDIA at GTC this year, but I'm as wary as I always am that their announcement may not be what we are looking for.

                  Cheers,
                  Mike

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                  • #59
                    Originally posted by Prescience500 View Post
                    Nouveau is important because people who first try out Linux will have whatever hardware they have. We should strive to have it so that all of the hardware just works upon installation. I really hope that the open source announcement is an NVIDIA equivalent to the AMDGPU kernelside driver. That would solve a lot of problems and move them closer to having a great mostly open option on Linux...just like AMD has.
                    This is very true. I think the ideal is that Nouveau is made to be fast and stable enough to allow for typical desktop activities. That way it can serve as a gateway drug to GNU-Linux. Once the user has got their initial taste and they like it, they may then start looking for a better GNU-Linux experience and they will probably learn that Intel and AMD are the way to go (in terms of desktop graphics).

                    Thankfully, these days, AMD are being far more competitive with NVIDIA, so more and more users are coming into GNU-Linux land with an AMD card and getting a great out-of-box experience.

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                    • #60
                      As a reminder
                      2012:Linus Torvalds Calls NVIDIA The Worst Company Ever
                      Linus Torvalds, the creator of the Linux kernel, has called out NVIDIA for their poor graphics drivers / support in a public presentation. In the talk he called NVIDIA "the single worst company we have ever dealt with" and ended his green comments with "NVIDIA: FUCK YOU!"
                      Fuck You NVIDIA
                      2015:Nouveau: NVIDIA's New Hardware Is "VERY Open-Source Unfriendly"
                      2020:Nouveau Still Pushing Forward In 2020 Thanks To Red Hat But Community Developers Leaving
                      Originally posted by cybertraveler View Post
                      Thankfully, these days, AMD are being far more competitive with NVIDIA, so more and more users are coming into GNU-Linux land with an AMD card and getting a great out-of-box experience.

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