The State Of Open-Source Radeon Driver Features

[Hamish Wilson]

I think bridgman is the most informed one to tell us the answer to this question if he may: What would be technically easier for you and the linux driver team? Stabilising fglrx or getting the open source driver on par on functionality and performance with the fglrx?

I am not bridgman of course, but since this is a public forum I can respond anyway. Again, I have to ask why you see these as being mutually exclusive goals. One does not take resources from the other, and both are actually happening (if somewhat slowly). Catalyst is much better than it was back in the day (and certainly much better than it was before ATI was purchased by AMD) and the free drivers have been improving by leaps and bounds (I know, I have been following them for almost all that time).

By the way, there is not "one linux team" as I understand it, but two separate initiatives within the same company. So they are not even tripping on each other's toes.

Everybody seems to be assuming that if fglrx would be open sourced all our problems will end. I don't know how big is the fglrx but if somebody drops 6 millions lines of code on you (I don't know how big fglrx is just assuming a number), you aren't exactly going to become productive with it right away. In fact most devs that already work on the open source driver would continue to do so since they already know the code and are already productive with it.

Indeed, releasing the Catalyst code would not solve much of anything in the short term. I do not see anyone even suggesting that - and if they are they are indeed misinformed. Getting access to certain functions of Catalyst probably would be useful though.

Somebody else said that if you want to use the old 2000 3000 or 4000 lines of products you should stick to Ubuntu 12.04 not 12.10. I knew that. But most probably somebody coming to linux today will download the 12.10 since it's the latest and will find that the graphics drivers perform inadequately.

That was me, and in that instance I think you can blame Canonical. For a distribution that targets new and in-experienced users they certainly do not do themselves much favours by promoting their six month or die release model as being stable. Fedora at least never had that pretension, and I think Canonical should be promoting the LTS releases as being the best for new users. But that is not my or bridgman's call, and my point still stands that if you want a stable interface for blobs you should choose a stable long-term support release.

Another one said that why does linux have to want better market share. I've heard Torvalds saying that he doesn't like the fact that the only place where linux is not successful is the desktop. And I've heard many others saying that they would like better market share. In fact with better market share a lot of linux problems like being ignored by driver developers would end.

Again that was me, and that was me asserting my own personal opinion. My personal goal is to have a free and open system that suits my needs and does what I need it to do. Marketshare for me is not that large concern, although I do agree getting more users and companies on board could be helpful. Torvalds may have other ideas. Besides, citing Torvalds opinions as support for your own can be a rather risky proposition, given his rather abrasive manner and penchant for strong forceful declarations.

Also, Torvalds has not been all that friendly to blob manufactures in the past that are unwilling to work with his kernel infrastructural:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/2012/06/18/torvalds-slams-nvidia/1

[necro-lover]

I think bridgman is the most informed one to tell us the answer to this question if he may: What would be technically easier for you and the linux driver team? Stabilising fglrx or getting the open source driver on par on functionality and performance with the fglrx?

Everybody seems to be assuming that if fglrx would be open sourced all our problems will end. I don't know how big is the fglrx but if somebody drops 6 millions lines of code on you (I don't know how big fglrx is just assuming a number), you aren't exactly going to become productive with it right away. In fact most devs that already work on the open source driver would continue to do so since they already know the code and are already productive with it.

Somebody else said that if you want to use the old 2000 3000 or 4000 lines of products you should stick to Ubuntu 12.04 not 12.10. I knew that. But most probably somebody coming to linux today will download the 12.10 since it's the latest and will find that the graphics drivers perform inadequately.

Another one said that why does linux have to want better market share. I've heard Torvalds saying that he doesn't like the fact that the only place where linux is not successful is the desktop. And I've heard many others saying that they would like better market share. In fact with better market share a lot of linux problems like being ignored by driver developers would end.

I use the Radeon driver with the latest alpha kernel and latest mesa GIT ppa. And I'm happier with my computer and its more stable in the overall experience than my catalyst experience and I really tried to use the catalyst for years!

So your "Logic" is broken please consult your Borg collective for a reassimilation to fix your brain with nano-robots.

Or get some Vulcan lessons in Logic !

These FOSS individual Anarchists will always fight back in resistance

Because they don't think that resistance is futile.

[intellivision]

Hi, I am going to break the rule for just one post to you.

I too encountered exactly same situation of "stubborn management", "corporate viewpoint" and "stalled things/minds/mindsets".
The morale I got however, is extremely different from yours.
I just let the founders of iD Software explain it:

http://rome.ro/games_ddici.php

GL

crazycheese, I've been following your posts and every one of them has been an incoherent mess.
Perhaps the Phoronix forums aren't for you, I'd say 4chan would be more suited.

[V!NCENT]

The open source AMD drivers are fantastic for the desktop and budget games on Wine that used to be ?50 top titles. I haven't checked the native Steam Source games yet, but these will run great.

Ofcourse they won't run Crisis 7 or whatever, but if the power management will get some much needed love, I won't even have a reason to use the proprietary drivers et al!

AMD realy has filled the last gap of complaint about Linux on the desktop for me, and I thank them for that

[archibald]

Thank you for coming here and keeping us all informed Mr. Bridgman. As has been mentioned before; you have the patience of a saint (and the BSD comment was masterful!).

[bridgman]

AFAIK the only thing I implied was going to happen (based on what everyone is doing today) was that power management was hopefully going to improve.

I did say a couple of times that "if we did X then something bad might happen" but I also followed that with "so we aren't doing X".

Anyways, the worst I thought you were doing was maybe being sufficiently passionate about the open source drivers that you didn't always read what I typed carefully enough... or maybe I wasn't being sufficiently clear.

Hey, it's not like either of us ran over a donkey or anything

(yesterday's big news item : http://metro.co.uk/2013/01/17/donkey...swana-3355845/ )

[duby229]

I would like to answer your request, but I feel like I need to stop posting in this thread. When the time comes for what you implied was going to happen I don't want to be the guy you can point to and say "It's because of guys like this."

I think it would be better if I stepped out of this conversation. I am truly sorry for offending anyone. And I hope that you can look past my bias and continue doing good work.

[bridgman]

No I've concluded it from all the various things you've said in this thread. My response to crazycheeze was me telling him such.

Could I trouble you for a summary of your logic ? Are you perhaps assuming that when I answer a "why are you doing this" question you're thinking that I'm talking about *my* decisions rather than explaining how other people see things ? I try to be pretty clear about the difference but maybe I'm not being clear enough.

[duby229]

duby229 -- what in the world could possibly make you think I don't like the open source drivers ? The fact that you concluded this from reading crazycheese's post is a bit disturbing

No I've concluded it from all the various things you've said in this thread. My response to crazycheeze was me telling him such. I was trying to tell him what I had observed so he would stop.

I don't want to hurt your opinion further though as I said and so I'm not going to say anything more.

[Hamish Wilson]

You both guys just sound like whiny children. Posting manipulative post to try and make Bridgman feel bad in order to booster the open source drivers is no only completely see through but will have no affect what so ever. I understand your frustration but you clearly have no understanding of IT from a corporate viewpoint. If there is one thing I have learn from being a developer for the passed decade it is that its extremely hard to convince management to make changes even when its a very good idea to do so, and changing from a closed development process to an open one is a huge change so I fully understand why things are constantly stalled. Changing a persons mindset is a very difficult thing to do, and when you are dealing with management which typically doesn't always have a technology background yet gets to make all the final decisions changing minds becomes all the more difficult.

Personally I'm very grateful that Bridgman is thick skinned enough to take all the flak he gets in his stride, and still provide us with feedback.

Yes. Seriously, grow up people.

Thank you Bridgman for having the patience of a saint. I had hoped with Q's dismissal this kind of shenanigans would have died down. It does a disservice to us all.