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  • crazycheese
    replied
    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    As I said, I'm talking about fglrx having a perf boost with compiz enabled, not the opensource drivers.
    I?m definitely not fglrx fan, since version 8.6(if I remember correctly) crashed the system when switching terminal windows... And opensource radeon is currently not my choice.

    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    No problem at all, I just think Ati is doing a better job than Nvidia with their opensource stack, also because I don't think Ati can ever
    Sure.

    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    of their radeon driver. Since it's open-source, if anyone has a problem with the way it's being developed, it can still be forked, while Noveau will never see the benefits of released specs, and can never have an alternative to reverse engeneering. You said everyone is free to choose, I'd say everyone except the Nouveau devs.
    You missed the point that opensource amd drivers need firmware blobs in order to operate, so noveau is more clean opensource than radeon.
    Also, I do not think AMD will allow features in radeon that will compromise the need for fglrx. Like efficient power management and performance improvements that would make radeon outperform fglrx in 3D and make it useless (but its wild guess).
    Every time I rised an idea to make radeon opensource driver officially supported part of amd and to put its development on monetary basis (cause the main income for driver development comes from card selling, yes I know amd produces only chips and PCB design - they still need them sold). Every time amd expressed its ok with current state, current development rate and current performance of radeon compared to fglrx.
    Well, if fglrx is their best bet, then I?m better with nvidia. But this is only due to my usage scenario. If you find opensource radeon sufficient for you, than I congratulate you.

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  • vervelover
    replied
    Contrary to your statement, I had composite slow down 3d performance on opensource drivers with hd4770
    As I said, I'm talking about fglrx having a perf boost with compiz enabled, not the opensource drivers.

    So whats your problem? Comparing two different evils?
    No problem at all, I just think Ati is doing a better job than Nvidia with their opensource stack, also because I don't think Ati can ever

    cut the headroom and independence
    of their radeon driver. Since it's open-source, if anyone has a problem with the way it's being developed, it can still be forked, while Noveau will never see the benefits of released specs, and can never have an alternative to reverse engeneering. You said everyone is free to choose, I'd say everyone except the Nouveau devs.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazycheese
    replied
    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    My fault I should have mentioned, the performance increase is with fglrx only.
    Any time I play Doom 3 with Nvidia proprietary drivers with compiz on the performance falls on my laptop.
    Mate, just use the driver and hardware you see fit. Right now nvidia is ok for me, unlike amd. As I sayd, I have no performance hits with or without compositing and no screen tearing in any videos (vdpau, smplayer). Contrary to your statement, I had composite slow down 3d performance on opensource drivers with hd4770(thats equivalent to ~9800gt in raw opengl).


    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    This doesn't make sense to me. They DO support open-source drivers by releasing docs and having 3 devs working on them, does nvidia support their open source drivers in ANY way? No. And open-sourcing a small config software that works only for their closed source driver seems to me like saying: "ok, can't bother making a decent config interface for our binary drivers, let's make it open source so that some else does it".
    Nvidia has no official opensource drivers, at all. They have contributed suggestions and patches for opensource stack and they provide many things in opensource.
    Amd does not have official opensource drivers (their only official driver is catalyst), but has opensource strategy - where they release the specs and fund some developers to collaboratively improve opensource drivers.
    To help you understand me, I ask you to look at both amd and nvidia hardware - which is through and through proprietary. This is the reason opensource radeon driver cannot work without microcode blobs and there is Mr. Bridgeman to prevent something not acceptable for AMD to come into opensource driver(yet it is used in their proprietary driver). Nvidia decided just to close the driver completely and work on it in-house instead.
    Which is better depends on your demands and amd opensource driver is inferior to amd official closed source driver when you ask for performance and features. So whats your problem? Comparing two different evils?

    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    Seems to me like saying: radeon was better when it was being reverse engineered by people that had nothing to do with Ati, when Ati had no control over it and did not hinder it, and it was exactly what nouveau is now. So, it's like saying that all the open-sourced docs and the devs working on it and the whole ati open-source strategy actually worsened the state of the driver.
    Its like saying, it limited the driver possibilities and put it on permanent position number 2. Yes, it improved driver development speed and being officially supported is nice, but, at same time, it cut the headroom and independence. This "headroom", of course, has no use any way if nobody can reach it due to closed specs harming development rate and possible cease-and-desist due to patent infringements.

    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    Sorry, but I have no complaints over Ati open-source strategy if I compare to Nvidia's non-existent one.
    Yes, I would agree with you if I had a built-in IGP graphics and be OK with OpenGL2, unimportant power management and fps.
    But right now, no opensource driver is usable for me. Sure, when radeon driver improves past current state, it will change, but I?m talking about "now".

    Leave a comment:


  • vervelover
    replied
    I used opensource driver on 4770 and turning compiz off resulted in 20% performance increase
    My fault I should have mentioned, the performance increase is with fglrx only.
    Any time I play Doom 3 with Nvidia proprietary drivers with compiz on the performance falls on my laptop.


    Yeah, AMD does not support open driver too. Don?t get me wrong, they released documentation and have at least 3 people working on drivers full day, yet official driver is closed source catalyst.
    This doesn't make sense to me. They DO support open-source drivers by releasing docs and having 3 devs working on them, does nvidia support their open source drivers in ANY way? No. And open-sourcing a small config software that works only for their closed source driver seems to me like saying: "ok, can't bother making a decent config interface for our binary drivers, let's make it open source so that some else does it".

    Yes. Pretty much correct. But small details:
    - nvidia does not hinder noveau, amd controls(less or more, bad or good) radeon
    - noveau is firmware-free as it can generate the firmware itself, unlike radeon(xf86-video-ati and corresponding kernel driver)
    - noveau, in features and performance is same to nvidia, as radeon to fglrx. Well, due to AMD not turning away, radeon is 150% of noveau, yet not even close to nvidia blob or fglrx. In terms of power management noveau is better..
    - noveau is clean-room reverse engineered driver, but radeon is not link
    - amd is completely satisfied with how, and how fast radeon driver is developed and financed; and how it lives together with fglrx. Well, I?m not. But everyone is free to choose,no?
    - if you buy discrete card for 3d, neither of the drivers is usable, both opensource are interesting mostly for legacy unsupported cards(much less impacts nvidia)
    Seems to me like saying: radeon was better when it was being reverse engineered by people that had nothing to do with Ati, when Ati had no control over it and did not hinder it, and it was exactly what nouveau is now. So, it's like saying that all the open-sourced docs and the devs working on it and the whole ati open-source strategy actually worsened the state of the driver. Sorry, but I have no complaints over Ati open-source strategy if I compare to Nvidia's non-existent one.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazycheese
    replied
    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    Actually, with ATI I get a performance boost when compiz is enabled while playing games. Some phoronix tests also show this (can remember the link sorry)
    Its good that you have performance increase, but I cannot confirm that either. I used opensource driver on 4770 and turning compiz off resulted in 20% performance increase. With nvidia proprietary I see absolutely no decrease. Maybe it is combination of either buggy drivers and/or very weak cards. As mentioned, I see no decrease.

    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    Does it matter when the only driver they support is closed-source?
    Yeah, AMD does not support open driver too. Don?t get me wrong, they released documentation and have at least 3 people working on drivers full day, yet official driver is closed source catalyst.
    So your statement makes no sense.
    However, your previous statement had sense, since nvidia settings is opensource, yet has no support for non-english language.

    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    Sorry, but on my laptop I still get it, I updated the drivers everytime but still compiz=tearing.
    9800gt(gnome2/compiz, now sold) - no tearing, 8300 IGP(gnome2/compiz, not my machine) - no tearing, 260sp216(kde4/kwin) - no tearing. I?m sorry you have the bug on laptop, I have no idea why.

    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    Sorry, what I meant to say is "no open-source actively supported (by nvidia) alternative". Nouveau is not supported by nvdia in any way.
    Yes. Pretty much correct. But small details:
    - nvidia does not hinder noveau, amd controls(less or more, bad or good) radeon
    - noveau is firmware-free as it can generate the firmware itself, unlike radeon(xf86-video-ati and corresponding kernel driver)
    - noveau, in features and performance is same to nvidia, as radeon to fglrx. Well, due to AMD not turning away, radeon is 150% of noveau, yet not even close to nvidia blob or fglrx. In terms of power management noveau is better..
    - noveau is clean-room reverse engineered driver, but radeon is not link
    - amd is completely satisfied with how, and how fast radeon driver is developed and financed; and how it lives together with fglrx. Well, I?m not. But everyone is free to choose,no?
    - if you buy discrete card for 3d, neither of the drivers is usable, both opensource are interesting mostly for legacy unsupported cards(much less impacts nvidia)

    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    I have a geforce2 on another computer, still supported but the drivers are CRAP. Equally aged ATI cards have a WAY better support with open source drivers that will last forever.
    I have five or six geforce2mx cards and one radeon 64 DDR(aka first radeon, R100). I don?t know when I will throw them away. They are all completely outdated crap. The performance of such cards nowadays on anything but 2D, is great luck. No one ever will bother to correct the driver code or fix bug, be it closed or opensource. Voodoo is much more sexy, even stays today, but they threw out its code from Mesa, remember?
    Last edited by crazycheese; 06 September 2011, 06:33 PM. Reason: wrong link

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  • vervelover
    replied
    No difference.
    Actually, with ATI I get a performance boost when compiz is enabled while playing games. Some phoronix tests also show this (can remember the link sorry)

    Thats correct, but nvidia-settings is opensource application.
    Does it matter when the only driver they support is closed-source?

    Absolutely no tearing issues here, kde4.7 with composite on, on gtx260sp216.
    Sorry, but on my laptop I still get it, I updated the drivers everytime but still compiz=tearing.

    Also, no open-source alternative.
    Sorry, what I meant to say is "no open-source actively supported (by nvidia) alternative". Nouveau is not supported by nvdia in any way.

    this card is backed up with binary driver for many years after its initial release, way more than amd
    I have a geforce2 on another computer, still supported but the drivers are CRAP. Equally aged ATI cards have a WAY better support with open source drivers that will last forever.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazycheese
    replied
    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    The Nvidia driver needs compiz to be switched off for playing games (or the peformance is A LOT slower),
    No difference.

    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    has no localization for nvidia-settings
    Thats correct, but nvidia-settings is opensource application.

    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    video-tearing is still an issue.
    Absolutely no tearing issues here, kde4.7 with composite on, on gtx260sp216.

    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    Also, no open-source alternative.
    What is this?

    Mate, your arguments are wrong. Why I use nvidia now? Cause this card is backed up with binary driver for many years after its initial release, way more than amd; and it performs much better than amd closed source.
    On the opensource side, I don?t see amd be interested more in opensource, as much as it is interested in closed source. Of course, opensource is way to go, but for me not before at least 5 years when performance is fixed and we are close to opengl4, opencl lands in opensource and there is fairly efficient power management. Then it will rock. Then I will buy amd card, knowing its backed up by good quality driver.

    Leave a comment:


  • PsynoKhi0
    replied
    The only annoying thing I've noticed out-of-the-box is a couple of funky texture artifacts in HoN (HD4670).
    Most notably, if I start at the hellbourne camp, folliage is randomly replaced by black and white checkers patterns. Same goes for mini-map "death ping" icons. No issues with 11.7.

    Leave a comment:


  • b15hop
    replied
    I don't know why, but my asus crosshair 4 formula seems to be incompatible with 4870 x2 (single GPU card with crossfire) ... Win7 HPE x64 is treating it like it's a removable USB device.

    It's even come up with a second fake LCD screen. One that doesn't physically exist!

    Leave a comment:


  • DeepDayze
    replied
    Originally posted by vervelover View Post
    to me, this driver works perfectly, far better than any nvidia driver I used on other machines. The Nvidia driver needs compiz to be switched off for playing games (or the peformance is A LOT slower), has no localization for nvidia-settings, which also looks outdated, and video-tearing is still an issue. Also, no open-source alternative.
    Sorry if offtopic

    Nouveau is the OSS alternative to the nVidia blob and is under heavy development. Right now it's at the point where the radeon driver was at like 2 years ago in comparison (2D works pretty well and very basic 3D support in Mesa)

    Then people should keep reporting bugs or adding info to existing bugs for Catalyst if they want them fixed. Also people should open or add to bug reports for radeon driver as well :^)

    Leave a comment:

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