ATI and Linux compatibility

[ivanovic]

Let me list my experience so far. That is the experienced regarding fglrx is from some time last summer. What I was using at that time was kde 4.2 on gentoo unstable, amd64. Since last summer I am using the open source driver since that time, the reason being the missing xorg-server 1.7.x support in fglrx. I do track the latest changes. I am even using mesa/xf86-video-ati/libdrm from git. My graphics card is an HD3850 512MB and my CPU is a Core2Quad 9300. Here is my experience:

fglrx:
Native games (ET:QW, Ankh, Ankh2, JackKeane, Sacred: Gold, ...): Flawless experience, games run really fast
2D usage with Desktop effects (kwin): Worked acceptable. I had no real problems with those. It was fast enough for me and my every day usage. There was no DRI2, so you could not move OpenGL windows around nicely. No idea if this has changed so far.
Watching videos: Xv had some tearing in it but VSynced OpenGL was fine as long as I was just using one display. Since I tend to use 2 displays there is tearing on one of the two simple because the screens are not identical. I do mirror the content of my 1920x1200 Desktop display on my 1920x1080 TV.
3D Games in wine: I have no experience with those since if I want to play Windows native games I tend to boot Windows.

open source stack:
Native games: Not all do work due to problems with S3TC (patent encrumbed!) as well as some problems with the ogre engine. It is significantly slower, but eg World of Goo does run perfectly with current mesa. Sacred: Gold is significantly slower but playable since some weeks ago. I have not tried ET:QW yet. Ankh2 and JackKeane do crash at the moment.
2D usage with Desktop effects: Works perfectly. Faster than fglrx and zero problems at all! There is even DRI2, so moving opengl windows around it no problem at all. I am using KMS, so even the plain terminal without xorg does offer a decent resolution.
Watching videos: Xv does work nicely as long as just one screen is involved. When two screens are used and one mirrors the other you will get sync artifacts. I got no problem with software decoding HD videos.
3D Games in wine: I have no experience with those since if I want to play Windows native games I tend to boot Windows.

I got no experiences regarding the nvidia drivers so I don't know if they were better for my usecase or not. I am just very satisfied with what my card does offer me. Yes, I do use the open source driver, because it does "just work". I don't know if I would buy an ATI card for playing with wine though.
In general my experience with fglrx was that it does work rather good. From what I heard the driver has significantly improved over the last year, so it would probably be even better now. Though you have to know how to install it best and personally I'd recommend to always do it via your package manager (if possible) or you might end screwed in the end.

So for my usecase with "no WINE usage" I'd always buy another ATI card. Regarding WINE: I'd have a look at the appdb and check if the games I play are listed and if problems with ATI are mentioned. If not: order an ATI card, test if it *does* work for you and the games you play and if it does not send it back to the shop asking for an nvidia card.

[Jimbo]

You're also arguing other things as well

Yeah, of course, can I?

speaking of native opengl you said:

Sometimes fglrx can compete with the nVidia blob and sometimes it can't.

Can you post better arguments than your feelings? some *recent* benchmarks?
I pointed that i have no serious idea about that, but that i liked unigine numbers for example, i read that opengl is very good with fglrx. More objective data is needed here.


WINE is always the shield of nvidia fanboys , seriously boot windows is even beter than wine + nvidia!!. It's a real pitty what this application is doing to ATI.

[pingufunkybeat]

Who's sweeping what under the carpet? People want to ignore the nVidia blobs superiority and instead try to steer the discussion away from that and onto whether it's morally correct to use closed or open source drivers.

No, people are saying that having to run a piece of hardware which is keeping secrets from you is an important consideration when purchasing a video card. Especially when the official binary drivers sometimes fry your card, and you have to hope for the best when you use them.

You are saying that ultimate performance is the ONLY consideration, and this might be the case for you, but it is only one of several considerations for many people running Linux.

We have open drivers and specs for almost everything running in a modern computer, and I don't see why video cards should be any different.

If you need the card to support a wide range of software then you don't have the luxury of deliberately reducing you're range of software just to satisfy the development process the drivers are developed with.

Sure. I can't run OpenGL 3+ stuff using open drivers ATM.

But I don't need to. So I can run software based on open specs and open drivers.

And many people out there are in the same boat.

It would be really stupid for many users to run a secret binary blob running over secret hardware because it is capable of doing things that most users will never ever need.

How does nice virtual terminal switching or nice boot splash screen help me to run games under wine?

It doesn't but running games under wine doesn't help you with fast (and reliable!!!) VT switching either.

The advantage of the open drivers is that you profit from all the common infrastructure, such as having no xorg.conf, having KMS, making use of the Gallium state trackers in the future, and best of all -- having all of it work out of the box, and not having to download cryptic binaries from cryptic URLs -- i HATED that about nVidia.

The suggestion that we should abandon the open source ideals just because some kid wants to play WoW under Wine is frankly ridiculous.

The wine kid can get his nVidia, and the rest of us can enjoy open drivers. Though I assume that the wine kid would have a much better time running Windows games under Windows in the first place.

[mugginz]

You're also arguing other things as well

Yeah, of course, can I?

You sounded like you were trying to re-cast you argument to one revolving around just native 3D. In this discussion that would be disingenuous as part of the software suite needed by the OP is wine, amongst other things.

You can make arguments about the other points and you should but the fact remains that at the moment nVidia is still the better choice for the OP's criteria.

speaking of native opengl you said:

Sometimes fglrx can compete with the nVidia blob and sometimes it can't.

Can you post better arguments than your feelings? some *recent* benchmarks?
I pointed that i have no serious idea about that, but that i liked unigine numbers for example, i read that opengl is very good with fglrx. More objective data is needed here.

No, more data isn't required. How does FPS help when the software wont even start under fglrx?

WINE is always the shield of nvidia fanboys , seriously boot windows is even beter than wine + nvidia!!. It's a real pitty what this application is doing to ATI.

The ability to run wine is also quite relevant when the OP is asking:

Hi! I've been researching for hardware to buy a new computer. As I only use Linux but never used any ATI graphic card and a friend of mine said a while ago the combination is by any means no good, I wondered if the scenario changed over the years. Searching on internet, found AMD website FAQ, which states that "ATI Proprietary Linux driver currently supports Radeon 8500 and later AGP or PCI Express graphics products" (http://ati.amd.com/products/catalyst/linux.html#2)

You, Linux users, owners of ATI cards, would you please tell if it's possible to do the combination Linux/ATI and still play performance demanding games (on wine and natively)?

I searched but couldn't find useful and **updated** material on internet. Most of material are from past 5 years!!

Thanks in advance,
Rauss.

[Jimbo]

you are breaking the post, is already answered that nvidia is better for wine (read the first page of the thread please)

[Jimbo]

No, more data isn't required. How does FPS help when the software wont even start under fglrx?

This clearly shows that you have no idea what is native opengl and fglrx.

[mugginz]

No, people are saying that having to run a piece of hardware which is keeping secrets from you is an important consideration when purchasing a video card. Especially when the official binary drivers sometimes fry your card, and you have to hope for the best when you use them.

Whether there are secrets or not has no relevance compared to when the hardware you buy can not even run the software you have.

You are saying that ultimate performance is the ONLY consideration, and this might be the case for you, but it is only one of several considerations for many people running Linux.

No I'm saying that the hardware you buy needs to be able to run the software you have and want to have.

We have open drivers and specs for almost everything running in a modern computer, and I don't see why video cards should be any different.

Of course it's better to have them, but it's even better when the hardware will run the software you have in the way you want it to be run.

Sure. I can't run OpenGL 3+ stuff using open drivers ATM.

But I don't need to. So I can run software based on open specs and open drivers.

But the world doesn't revolve around the same feture set that you require. When someone needs hardware to run the software that they need to run then they have to buy hardware that will run it. If you have minimal requirements then you have more flexibility in which hardware you can purchase.

And many people out there are in the same boat.

And many are not in that same boat.

It would be really stupid for many users to run a secret binary blob running over secret hardware because it is capable of doing things that most users will never ever need.

Are you saying that all anyone ever needs a computer to do is the same things that you use a computer for.

How does nice virtual terminal switching or nice boot splash screen help me to run games under wine?

It doesn't but running games under wine doesn't help you with fast (and reliable!!!) VT switching either.

Yes but why is he buying a graphics card? Is it to do virtual terminals or is it to run games?

The advantage of the open drivers is that you profit from all the common infrastructure, such as having no xorg.conf, having KMS, making use of the Gallium state trackers in the future, and best of all -- having all of it work out of the box, and not having to download cryptic binaries from cryptic URLs -- i HATED that about nVidia.

And the advantage of the closed drivers is that they support more software and where that software is the software that you need to run then that makes the choices clearer.

The suggestion that we should abandon the open source ideals just because some kid wants to play WoW under Wine is frankly ridiculous.

The suggestion that we should abandon the software we need to run in order to only run open drivers is even more ridiculous.

The wine kid can get his nVidia, and the rest of us can enjoy open drivers. Though I assume that the wine kid would have a much better time running Windows games under Windows in the first place.

That's both very closed minded of you and fails to address the use cases he has for a computer.

[mugginz]

you are breaking the post, is already answered that nvidia is better for wine (read the first page of the thread please)

So what are you arguing about?

The OP needs to run wine, so I guess even you agree case closed, he should buy nVidia.

[mugginz]

This clearly shows that you have no idea what is native opengl and fglrx.

People have reported instances where software that runs under nVidias blob wont run under fglrx. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.

[mugginz]

People have reported instances where software that runs under nVidias blob wont run under fglrx. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.

And I mean native OpenGL software.