There are many more readers than members

[bridgman]

http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20846

For the record, gordboy's posts there were as courteous and well-reasoned as any on the forum.

[bridgman]

I do *so* much miss being able to edit

One common thread I see between gordboy and -fan is that both talk about major releases as "the next stable release", while in fact major releases (eg 6.13) normally deliver new functionality while the minor releases (eg 6.12.4) deliver bug fixes and improved stability.

The development and test focus with major releases is more on making the new functionality work well while breaking as little as possible in the existing functionality.

[mugginz]

This is a good discussion but I think it's missing the point. It seemed to me that gordboy was not banned specifically for his attitude or aggressive posting, but rather for ignoring previous warnings, both private and in now-closed threads. Other users receiving similar warnings did back down (although they were replaced by other users); gordboy did not.

I think that if the conversation was to not be continued then the right thing would've been to close the thread.

The other question for me is how "robust" the discussion actually was - gordboy had asked about the long delay between releases late last year, had been told that the next driver would come out some time after the 2.6.33 or 2.6.34 kernel locked down (whichever took KMS out of staging for radeon-supported GPUs), and seemed fine with that. The latest round of "why aren't you releasing the driver" posts only appeared *after* the first 6.13 RC was published and the release process had started - that's what made other posters question the validity of gordboy's complaints and threats.

I myself question the validity of his main point as well but I don't question his right to make them in the light of what else gets posted by others. While I wish for the drivers to be at their most awesome right now, they're not quite there yet and unless I'm prepared to muck in with code myself I'll personally keep things in the realm of "do I buy nVidia or AMD?" and simply vote with my wallet and the wallets of those that I advise.

[mugginz]

I do *so* much miss being able to edit

One common thread I see between gordboy and -fan is that both talk about major releases as "the next stable release", while in fact major releases (eg 6.13) normally deliver new functionality while the minor releases (eg 6.12.4) deliver bug fixes and improved stability.

The development and test focus with major releases is more on making the new functionality work well while breaking as little as possible in the existing functionality.

Of course they could be both the same individual but at this stage I myself see no real value in that topic. I get the feeling some would like Gordboy-Fan to disappear as well though.

[bridgman]

I think that if the conversation was to not be continued then the right thing would've been to close the thread.

That's what happened last time, but I don't think there was any desire to stop discussion of the topic, just keep the tone of discussion more reasonable :

http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?p=117423#post117423

The question is how you maintain a semblance of control without censoring the actual discussion. The usual practice (whether it be a schoolyard fight, a mob in the street or a forum thread gone bad) is to first warn the group, then if that doesn't work figure out "who started it" and either get them to back off a bit or take them out of the picture until things cool down.

I myself question the validity of his main point as well but I don't question his right to make them in the light of what else gets posted by others. While I wish for the drivers to be at their most awesome right now, they're not quite there yet and unless I'm prepared to muck in with code myself I'll personally keep things in the realm of "do I buy nVidia or AMD?" and simply vote with my wallet and the wallets of those that I advise.

I agree. I'm no fan of mob behaviour either - one definition of a mob is a bunch of people saying "but *I* only hit him once..." when the aggregate response is just as bad as what the initiator did.

The problem here, I think, was that in the last few threads gordboy wasn't really making points, just jumping to the conclusion that the developers were all incompetent and/or malicious without any supporting arguments. I think we all encourage criticism just as much as praise but I didn't really see much this time other than personal attacks both in the threads and via PMs.

Of course they could be both the same individual but at this stage I myself see no real value in that topic. I get the feeling some would like Gordboy-Fan to disappear as well though.

I don't really care about who's who either - I was trying to say that the one potentially valid complaint (lack of a "stable release") was probably missing the point anyways, since the major releases are not the same as stable releases anyways.

In the end the discussion seemed to boil down to one specific bug fix which gordboy wanted in the minor releases but which agd5f felt was too invasive/risky to be a good candidate for a minor. Fair point, but I don't think anything like that could ever justify even the initial posts we have seen.

[mugginz]

That's what happened last time, but I don't think there was any desire to stop discussion of the topic, just keep the tone of discussion more reasonable :

But if the topic of discussion is whether or not the devs are incompetent and you can't make statements in the affirmative without being in breach then the subject needs to be terminated.

http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?p=117423#post117423

The question is how you maintain a semblance of control without censoring the actual discussion. The usual practice (whether it be a schoolyard fight, a mob in the street or a forum thread gone bad)

"forum gone bad" was the starting point.

is to first warn the group, then if that doesn't work figure out "who started it" and either get them to back off a bit or take them out of the picture until things cool down.

And when dealing with a thread you can also ban the others behaving in a similar way or simply close the thread.

I myself question the validity of his main point as well but I don't question his right to make them in the light of what else gets posted by others. While I wish for the drivers to be at their most awesome right now, they're not quite there yet and unless I'm prepared to muck in with code myself I'll personally keep things in the realm of "do I buy nVidia or AMD?" and simply vote with my wallet and the wallets of those that I advise.

I agree. I'm no fan of mob behaviour either - one definition of a mob is a bunch of people saying "but *I* only hit him once..." when the aggregate response is just as bad as what the initiator did.

The problem here, I think, was that in the last few threads gordboy wasn't really making points, just jumping to the conclusion that the developers were all incompetent and/or malicious without any supporting arguments.

But I think the point he was trying to make was fairly consistent and was that the devs were incompetent and that without him shaming the them into action the driver would never be released and that the lack of this current "stable release" was his supporting argument. Kind of circular really.

I might add that I don't share this view myself.

I think we all encourage criticism just as much as praise but I didn't really see much this time other than personal attacks both in the threads and via PMs.

How many of the others were warned with bans? From what I read I don't think it was many at all.

I don't really care about who's who either - I was trying to say that the one potentially valid complaint (lack of a "stable release") was probably missing the point anyways, since the major releases are not the same as stable releases anyways.

In the end the discussion seemed to boil down to one specific bug fix which gordboy wanted in the minor releases but which agd5f felt was too invasive/risky to be a good candidate for a minor. Fair point, but I don't think anything like that could ever justify even the initial posts we have seen.

Well his main point in itself looks like a personal attack and personal attacks have been allowed in the past. You can't discuss the point Gordboy was making without being personal so perhaps the entire discussion should've been shutdown.


I'm not here to try to validate the points he was trying to make by the way. Especially when I don't share his views. When it comes to discussions I prefer to keep it to "just the facts Mam" It makes for more productive discussions in the end. I'm just not seeing consistency in his banning though.

[nanonyme]

"forum gone bad" was the starting point.

Was it now really? Or was it just a cover-up to distract some users from seeing that we're continuing the exact same conversation in a different thread? Not that I have anything against starting a new thread on the same topic, the previous one got quite steamy. (not that the new one didn't very soon) If that was actually another user, I'd beg for better judgement for a username than picking one that so directly reminds us of a former quite overheated argument.

[mugginz]

"forum gone bad" was the starting point.

Was it now really? Or was it just a cover-up to distract some users from seeing that we're continuing the exact same conversation in a different thread?

I wasn't talking about the start of this particular thread myself but was referring to Gordboy's one. As for the start of this thread though it would seem that Gordboy-Fan was not only mentioning his support or Gordboy, but also it seemed he wanted to discuss the nature of the driver release process as well.

Not that I have anything against starting a new thread on the same topic, the previous one got quite steamy. (not that the new one didn't very soon) If that was actually another user, I'd beg for better judgement for a username than picking one that so directly reminds us of a former quite overheated argument.

[energyman]

Yeah, I'd be surprised if it wasn't gordboy doing ban evasion on another username.

without doubt.

[bridgman]

But if the topic of discussion is whether or not the devs are incompetent and you can't make statements in the affirmative without being in breach then the subject needs to be terminated.

And when dealing with a thread you can also ban the others behaving in a similar way or simply close the thread.

But I think the point he was trying to make was fairly consistent and was that the devs were incompetent and that without him shaming the them into action the driver would never be released and that the lack of this current "stable release" was his supporting argument. Kind of circular really.

I wonder if our different viewpoints are a result of you looking more at what is said during the worst parts (typically the end of the thread) and me looking more at "how we got there", ie the progression throughout the thread.

I think 4 patterns cover the options pretty well. I'm using "first" for the original poster and "mob" for all the folks who respond :

Pattern 1
first : I don't like the way the drivers are being developed
mob : you're stupid
first : you're stupid too

Pattern 2
first : I don't like the way the drivers are being developed
mob : I disagree and here's why
first : you're stupid
mob : you're stupid too

In the first case the people responding are clearly at fault; banning or blaming the original poster would be wrong. All parties are making personal attacks but I would blame whoever escalated ("mob" in this case).

In the second case the original poster was the one who escalated to personal attacks. Again, all parties are making personal attacks but the original poster is to blame.

Pattern 3
first : the developers are stupid
mob : I disagree and here's why
first : you're stupid
mob : you're stupid too

Pattern 4
first : the developers are stupid
mob : you're stupid too

In pattern 3 I would say the original poster is clearly to blame, even though both parties are making personal attacks by the end. The OP was given a chance to clean up the discussion but failed to do so.

Pattern 4 is what the etiquette books tell us to avoid, since it's a no-win right from the start. These are the threads you said should have just been closed, and I think you're right.

The question is which pattern(s) best match the threads we've seen here. My reading was that patterns 2 and 3 were closest to the mark, and those are the ones where after a general warning I would regard the original poster as being the one responsible for the poor tone of discussion and start waving the banhammer in their direction. Maybe closing the thread a second time would have been better, hard to say.

How many of the others were warned with bans? From what I read I don't think it was many at all.

Just a couple AFAIK. The point is that they backed off and OP did not.

Well his main point in itself looks like a personal attack and personal attacks have been allowed in the past. You can't discuss the point Gordboy was making without being personal so perhaps the entire discussion should've been shutdown.

Yeah, in hindsight any thread that *starts* with a personal attack should probably be closed before it has a chance to go any further. I hadn't thought about that until now.

I'm not here to try to validate the points he was trying to make by the way. Especially when I don't share his views. When it comes to discussions I prefer to keep it to "just the facts Mam" It makes for more productive discussions in the end. I'm just not seeing consistency in his banning though.

Again, it depends on the reason for the ban. If it was "ignoring warnings from the moderator and continuing to do what they were told to stop", I think only one poster did that. If the ban was for the general tone of discussion only, then I agree that the ban was inconsistent.