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  • #61
    By the way, I don't disagree at all with what you are trying to accomplish, or what you are trying to do for your users.

    I just disagree with a few of the statements you are making along the way

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    • #62
      Originally posted by bridgman View Post
      So here's the problem - it sounds like you don't really want "the bug fixes and new features available in the newest versions of the ATi software" since that requires a kernel driver update as well. Ubuntu does want that and so they are picking up *all* of the changes including a new kernel driver and moving from user modesetting to kernel modesetting.

      What you really seem to want is a cherry-picked *subset* of the new features, focusing only on the ones your distro needs. That's not what Ubuntu are doing - they are keeping the existing functionality for Karmic and moving to all new functionality with Lucid.

      So... do you really want the same as Ubuntu ? It sounds like you want something significantly different.
      I used Ubuntu as a base because they do 95% of my bug testing for me and all I have to due is fix the bugs they cause with their frankly horrible backporting procedures. Thankfully, I can fix most if not all of the bugs in Ubuntu by going back to the devs and just installing the latest versions of the software.

      I might eventually might move on to Debian (especially since I want to put infinityOS on the iPad so it has a real OS :P), but I can't right now as I'm only one person and I would have no time left over to do anything if I even attempted to keep full track of Debian development.

      I have to make do with the pitfalls of Ubuntu Karmic for now, as Lucid is beta and will not be fully stabilized for around 2 months after its release. Though I am very excited to try out Lucid when it stabilizes and use the OSS Radeon 3D acceleration. infinityOS 2.0 will be based on Lucid.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by bridgman View Post
        By the way, I don't disagree at all with what you are trying to accomplish, or what you are trying to do for your users.

        I just disagree with a few of the statements you are making along the way
        No problem. I can get a little passionate and emotional at times. Nothing of what I said was meant to be taken personally by you guys. I frankly believe it's miracle what you guys accomplish with so little resources.

        My criticisms were mainly targeted at your corporation and your bosses rather the ATi dev team itself.

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        • #64
          I'm more of a boss than a developer these days so feel free to criticize away

          All I ask is that you recognize that your needs may be very different from the needs of other ATI/AMD customers, that we are trying to look after *their* needs as well as yours, and that the corporate decisions which would be ideal for meeting *your* needs (focusing on open source) may not work for the needs of our *other* customers (who mostly care about 3D performance/features/stability and don't really give a rat's a$$ about video playback).

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          • #65
            Originally posted by bridgman View Post
            I'm more of a boss than a developer these days so feel free to criticize away

            All I ask is that you recognize that your needs may be very different from the needs of other ATI/AMD customers, that we are trying to look after *their* needs as well as yours, and that the corporate decisions which would be ideal for meeting *your* needs (focusing on open source) may not work for the needs of our *other* customers (who mostly care about 3D performance/features/stability and don't really give a rat's a$$ about video playback).
            We did make a deliberate decision to try to improve all areas in parallel rather than ignoring one segment and making another segment happy sooner. In the short term that probably means a few lost sales (and makes for some interesting forum arguments between people in different market segments) but it's also the approach that gets us to the "happy place" the fastest.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by darkphoenix22 View Post
              I have to make do with the pitfalls of Ubuntu Karmic for now, as Lucid is beta and will not be fully stabilized for around 2 months after its release. Though I am very excited to try out Lucid when it stabilizes and use the OSS Radeon 3D acceleration. infinityOS 2.0 will be based on Lucid.
              Sounds good. In the meantime, my guess is that there are a bunch of Ubuntu users who can point you to the best set of updates to get 3D on Karmic without touching xorg or kernel versions. It may be as simple as a Mesa update (probably worth going right to 7.8), but I'm not 100% sure about about that.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                I'm more of a boss than a developer these days so feel free to criticize away

                All I ask is that you recognize that your needs may be very different from the needs of other ATI/AMD customers, that we are trying to look after *their* needs as well as yours, and that the corporate decisions which would be ideal for meeting *your* needs (focusing on open source) may not work for the needs of our *other* customers (who mostly care about 3D performance/features/stability and don't really give a rat's a$$ about video playback).
                Definately. And until a year ago, I don't even feel that Linux was even ready for the desktop, so I completely understand your team's focus on the workstation market.

                We'll be seeing more and more "schisms" like this over a variety of projects on Linux. Linux has grown up and its userbase is spliting into the workstation and desktop subsets, which have VERY different wants and needs.

                Linux is going to be having growing pains over the next couple years. This is because for the first time ever, it is ready to be used by the power user, not just your Grandma or local computer guru.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                  All I ask is that you recognize that your needs may be very different from the needs of other ATI/AMD customers, that we are trying to look after *their* needs as well as yours, and that the corporate decisions which would be ideal for meeting *your* needs (focusing on open source) may not work for the needs of our *other* customers (who mostly care about 3D performance/features/stability and don't really give a rat's a$$ about video playback).
                  On the other hand, we ask that you recognize that you don't need to match NVidia performance and features in your closed driver, but merely ask that you provide *working* support. That means, we don't ask for excellent video features; we only need correct colors and vsync, very *basic* and obvious "features" (not really "features", they're expected out of every driver). We don't need the fastest 2D ever done; only non-slow-as-molasses one.

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                  • #69
                    Yep, understood. I don't think it was well understood at the beginning that some players were not capable of working with a GL output yet.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                      Yep, understood. I don't think it was well understood at the beginning that some players were not capable of working with a GL output yet.
                      When in Rome, do as the Romans do... The Xv API has been a standard for video playback in Linux for an infinity now.

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