More Broken Promises and Prevarication

[adamk]

eature based, I concede there are points for both camps. But this goes further than that. Given the (unusually) long latency between releases, people are naturally concerned whether there will _ever_ be another stable release, or whether they will be forever be waiting outside the gates forlornly with their begging bowls.

People suggests more than one. So far, you seem to be the only person (note the singular) that seems to be worried if there will ever be another stable release. Or did you take a poll somewhere that I'm not aware of?

Adam

[Tillin9]

Don't feed the trolls

Seriously, others in this thread have stated it - but don't feed the trolls.

From a regular user perspective, 6.12 did pretty much everything I wanted. I understand developer constraint and with the major UMS to KMS change not rushing to release a driver with a bunch of potential issues (and support headaches) seemed like the right call.

As far as the release, the only thing I would have liked was a little more transparency that 6.12 didn't do KMS. However, once I realized this, compiling from git was very easy (I just followed the guide) so anyone who wanted/ needed the newer code had it. Most distros even had some kind of packaged option as well.

I personally want to thank all the developers for their hard work. Having had ATI cards on Linux for a number of years I can honestly say we've come a very long way from a barely working r300 driver, to a near fully featured driver with half-decent 3D that supports everything but the latest batch of cards.

[bridgman]

So let me get this clear. You are saying that if all goes well, there will be a full release in the next 2 weeks. That is fantastic news.

And I take it, that the devs will keep phoronix fully apprised of the situation, should things take a turn for the worse.

No, I am saying that based on what I am seeing the devs are still within the ballpark estimates they discussed previously, which IMO is pretty good considering the scope of the release. The release process started a couple of weeks ago and, as airlied said, it will finish when it finishes, but it's looking good so far.

Given that the release process started in the last couple of weeks with two RCs already delivered, that this was always intended to be "the KMS release" and that the major distros are already picking up the code from git and enabling KMS I don't see any reason for worrying that there will never be another release.

[gordboy]

A Year Is An Eternity In Software Terms

People suggests more than one. So far, you seem to be the only person (note the singular) that seems to be worried if there will ever be another stable release. Or did you take a poll somewhere that I'm not aware of?

Adam

I wouldn't be at all surprised if your knowledge of the real concerns of people was incomplete. Just because I have no support in this (obscure) thread doesn't mean the whole world and I, are at odds. I think I have managed to do a decent job of pointing out the blatant inadequacies of the current development process, despite its well-intentioned adoption.

At what point are people entitled to ask "listen guys, a year is plenty, just give us the good stuff and work on the rest" ?

At what point are people entitled to ask "listen guys, this just isn't working, time for a change of direction" ?

See, I'm never that sold on the "we do it that way because we do it that way" line. To be honest, it smacks of insular and to me, intellectually dishonest, thinking.

I don't even think it's going too far to say that it places unnecessary burdens on other parts of the linux ecosystem, when a key part is effectively holding up the whole traffic flow with its adherence to curious Rules Of Engagement.

I've used harsh tactics at times, to be sure. But sometimes people just will not listen. So if anyone reading this felt hurt or impugned I unreservedly apologise.

[bridgman]

I think you are entitled to ask those questions, and if you had simply done that we would probably have gotten to the same discussion much sooner.

What's not so clear is whether you are entitled to start by insulting the developers and saying that everyone needs to be replaced without even stating your concerns or discussing whether those concerns are valid. I think the consensus opinion here is that you have not earned the right to do that.

[bridgman]

What I guess I don't understand is that in December you were told that there would be a ddx release "after 2.6.33 locked down in feb/mar" and you seemed fine with that. Since then, 2.6.33 has locked down with KMS support and the release process has started, but you seem much less happy than you were in December ? What changed ?

[gordboy]

The Right Men For The Job ?

I think you are entitled to ask those questions, and if you had simply done that we would probably have gotten to the same discussion much sooner.

What's not so clear is whether you are entitled to start by insulting the developers and saying that everyone needs to be replaced without even stating your concerns or discussing whether those concerns are valid. I think the consensus opinion here is that you have not earned the right to do that.

Well outlooks vary, but I think it is fair to say that the developers have been steadfastly ignoring all concerns that didn't stem from an "approved" source.

No offence, but sod the concensus opinion here. Not one of the army of Adherents has made a single valid point. Anyone looking in from the outside world will have concluded that there is something seriously wrong in the radeon world, and they would be right.

Absolutely everyone has the right to make those points in no uncertain terms, and if the Prima Donnas can't stand it - tough cookies. The idea that people have to go through screening or initiation to get any sort of access is utter nonsense.

My view is that the current developers need a good kick up the backside or replaced completely. They have let everyone down. And I am far from the only person in the linux world who thinks that. But life goes on, as they say, and we will have to be content for the time-being, with the parlous state of affairs.

No matter how you spin or obfuscate, there can be no doubt that a year is a Sabbatical From Reality too long. The refusal of the developers to consider any other course than their current one is disgraceful.

I'd like to (hopefully) close the discussion, by thanking you for acting as a broker in the argument. Without your help, we would not have got to this point.

[droidhacker]

The current candidates for us are Ubuntu 10.04 and Fedora 13. Which gets chosen will ultimately mostly depend on the quality of the graphics support. And that of course, depends on whether there is a release between now and then.

You might like to be aware of the following;
F13 has the radeon 6.13 RC driver pulled from GIT on Feb 8th -- at this very moment.
Dave works for Red Hat == Fedora.
The radeon drivers are being worked on primarily by people under AMD and Red Hat. That includes Dave.

It therefore follows logically that the latest RADEON drivers have the greatest chance of hitting Fedora BEFORE ANY OTHER DISTRO.

In fact, you can COUNT ON IT.

There, I made your decision for you. If you're looking for cutting edge support for RADEON GPUs, Fedora is the clear choice.

[gordboy]

Another Day, Another Muppet

You might like to be aware of the following;
F13 has the radeon 6.13 RC driver pulled from GIT on Feb 8th -- at this very moment.
Dave works for Red Hat == Fedora.
The radeon drivers are being worked on primarily by people under AMD and Red Hat. That includes Dave.

It therefore follows logically that the latest RADEON drivers have the greatest chance of hitting Fedora BEFORE ANY OTHER DISTRO.

In fact, you can COUNT ON IT.

There, I made your decision for you. If you're looking for cutting edge support for RADEON GPUs, Fedora is the clear choice.

What is this, the Fedora Fan Club ? Thanks but I already know the affiliations and suitability of the devs.

Listen buddy, linux belongs to the entire community, not some self-appointed cabal of "experts". And it most certainly does NOT follow logically that Dave would or should withhold code from other distros.

But thanks for clearly enunciating the strategy. It is now abundantly clear that the devs should never have been allowed near any important open source project.

Anyone reading this will form the same inexorable conclusion : namely that the open source radeon devs are *deliberately* withholding releases.

I call on the devs to utterly condemn droidhacker's last contribution. Either that, or admit that he is right, and Fedora are acting against the interests of the linux community.

[duby229]

Thanks, but what you are seeing here is righteous indignation, and not a stress-related malady. You sound a bit like the kind of guy who would stand by and watch an old lady be mugged at a bus stop for fear of giving offence by intervening ... jkn

The reason is very simple. I am sick of being lied to by people that are frankly making linux look like a joke. And I am going to keep on answering the posts here until I get an answer to my question.

I won't insult your intelligence by asking it again

Your judgement on me is so far off its simply unreal. If you cant figure out one person on the internet, then what makes you think you can figure out an enire group of people. Let me just tell you one thing, If I ever seen you beating up an old lady I would beat your ass. I would beat you down to a bloody pulp. And not just you, but anybody I seen beating up an old lady.

Since your judgement on me is so far off I'll tell you who I actually am, and it's probably going to piss you the fuck off..... White. Straight. Male. Conservative. Republican. God fearing. Cristian. Marksman. American.

I bet every single last one of those traits really gets under your skin.