AMD RDNA2 Vulkan: RADV vs. RADV+NGGC vs. AMDVLK vs. PRO Driver Benchmarks

[chithanh]

I'm not moving anything. Reloading graphics drivers in Windows is a breeze. Your applications continue running. In Linux you basically have to completely restart each time you want to reload them. If anything it's you who's moving goalposts.

You are not only moving goalposts, you seem to be unaware of how applications can survive X.org restart (some Google terms: Xpra, xmove).

Contrary to what you claim or imply, it is not necessary at all to restart your system, or any application, when unloading the graphics driver kernel module.

Ebuilds patches? Are you serious? Who cares about patches for the build system??

Lots of times, software has bugs that can be patched or worked around in the build system. Integrating such changes is very easy in Gentoo (also Nix/GUIX and other source based distros), simply copy/edit a text file. It is slightly more involved in Arch, and it is a pain in Debian, Fedora, etc.

[avem]

Moving the goalposts, are we? First it was "reboot", now it is "kill Xorg". And stopping X server and detaching from fbcon is precisely what makes the KMS driver to be "no longer in use" so you can unload the kernel module.

Indeed if you are debugging graphics drivers, you should first ensure that you are able to access and use the system without the GUI. If you have an Android smartphone, just install Termux or similar, so you don't even need a second desktop PC to access via SSH and run the detach/restore commands.

I am talking about user-submitted patches to Gentoo ebuilds vs. patches to Fedora rpm and Debian dpkg packages.

I'm not moving anything. Reloading graphics drivers in Windows is a breeze. Your applications continue running. In Linux you basically have to completely restart each time you want to reload them. If anything it's you who's moving goalposts.

Ebuilds patches? Are you serious? Who cares about patches for the build system??

[avem]

no, you can't unload kms drivers on windows at all

That's a plain lie. You can go to the Device Manager and delete your graphics adapter and find yourself in software mode (probably VESA). You're known to lie about both open and closed source software all the time, so I'm not surprised.

[chithanh]

Each bisect, go reboot.

No you cannot. KMS drivers in use cannot be unloaded unless you kill Xorg

Moving the goalposts, are we? First it was "reboot", now it is "kill Xorg". And stopping X server and detaching from fbcon is precisely what makes the KMS driver to be "no longer in use" so you can unload the kernel module.

, and run some commands which makes debugging a huge hassle. In Windows - any time of the week. And then there are huge caveats like the system could be left in a broken state, so you'll need SSH to restore it: https://nouveau.freedesktop.org/KernelModeSetting.html

Indeed if you are debugging graphics drivers, you should first ensure that you are able to access and use the system without the GUI. If you have an Android smartphone, just install Termux or similar, so you don't even need a second desktop PC to access via SSH and run the detach/restore commands.

I'm sure the number of patches for i915, amdgpu and nouveau from Gentoo users is fewer than 5. So much for Gentoo users being special.

I am talking about user-submitted patches to Gentoo ebuilds vs. patches to Fedora rpm and Debian dpkg packages.

[theriddick]

Was messing around with the PRO drivers, but it seems they had issues with dx12 and rt in games. I did manage to get The Ascent loaded up with RT once but the PRO drivers caused crashing or artifacts.

I look forward to when we can say, DX12 with RT works pretty flawless with proton and RADV or PRO but it seems we are still a fair way way. (correct me if I'm wrong)

I just wanted to test RT performance with PRO which its meant to support. (obviously not very well)

[pal666]

KMS drivers in use cannot be unloaded unless you kill Xorg, and run some commands which makes debugging a huge hassle. In Windows - any time of the week.

no, you can't unload kms drivers on windows at all

[avem]

The unloading part is wrong, you can detach radeon/amdgpu from fbcon and then unload the kernel module.

When it comes to involving your users in identifying and fixing problems, it matters how easy you make it. From Gentoo (where packages are bash scripts that anyone can easily see or edit on their system) I know that bug reports often come with patches attached. Contrast with Debian/Fedora/etc. where editing packages is several steps removed from ordinary users, and typically only the developers will do the bug fixing.

No you cannot. KMS drivers in use cannot be unloaded unless you kill Xorg, and run some commands which makes debugging a huge hassle. In Windows - any time of the week. And then there are huge caveats like the system could be left in a broken state, so you'll need SSH to restore it: https://nouveau.freedesktop.org/KernelModeSetting.html

I'm sure the number of patches for i915, amdgpu and nouveau from Gentoo users is fewer than 5. So much for Gentoo users being special.

[chithanh]

I cannot disagree with this but in my experience a vanishingly small number of "power users" actually have enough zeal and time to report and bisect major regressions. The Linux kernel architecture is not conducive to bisecting either because you cannot load and unload graphics drivers on the fly. Each bisect, go reboot. That's extremely tiresome.

The unloading part is wrong, you can detach radeon/amdgpu from fbcon and then unload the kernel module.

When it comes to involving your users in identifying and fixing problems, it matters how easy you make it. From Gentoo (where packages are bash scripts that anyone can easily see or edit on their system) I know that bug reports often come with patches attached. Contrast with Debian/Fedora/etc. where editing packages is several steps removed from ordinary users, and typically only the developers will do the bug fixing.

[MadCatX]

It changes everything because it's no longer the individuals who run and dictate their development, it's private corporations which do it to extract profits.

The primary purpose of a company is to make money. If a company invests serious resources into something, it's not unreasonable to expect them to get something out of it.

Does anyone here really believe Valve cares one bit about Linux and open source in general? OMG.

What is your definition of "caring about FOSS" and why does it matter? Valve Corporation is merely a legal entity and as such cannot "care" about anything. People paid by Valve to work on the graphics stack, however, can and probably do care a great deal about preserving the FOSS spirit of the projects they work on.

Note that instead of taking the easy way of forking the relevant code, hiring a bunch of sweatshop coders and controlling the development with an iron fist Valve decided to go with people who started as FOSS enthusiasts. This indicates that they either do care a bit about FOSS even at the corporate level or that they realized that it is better to fight alongside the FOSS community rather than against it.

It's funny how 20 years ago corporations touching Linux were scoffed at and ridiculed,

Would those be corporations with malicious intents that got picked up on and those corporations were rightfully told to eff off?

nowadays they've suddenly become "part of community".

If a company pays FOSS developers to work on FOSS in accordance with the generally accepted rules of FOSS development I really don't see a problem.

We've seen quite a lot of examples where "open" suddenly becomes not so open, e.g. MySQL, MongoDB, etc. etc. etc. and all the resentment which followed.

We have also seen a lot of examples where this didn't happen so I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

[avem]

Your definition of community is wrong. A FOSS community does not imply a community of unpaid volunteers. The idea is that everybody can chip in. RADV began as a hobby project of David Airlie (at least I think it was David). Zink was a hobby project of Mike Blumenkranz before Valve contracted him to work on it full time. If this is not the community spearheading important and impactful software projects, I don't know what is. Just because these projects later receive commercial backing to ensure further development doesn't change a thing.

It changes everything because it's no longer the individuals who run and dictate their development, it's private corporations which do it to extract profits. Does anyone here really believe Valve cares one bit about Linux and open source in general? OMG.

It's funny how 20 years ago corporations touching Linux were scoffed at and ridiculed, nowadays they've suddenly become "part of community". I guess open source fans do not care who and how develops Open Source software as long as it's "open".

We've seen quite a lot of examples where "open" suddenly becomes not so open, e.g. MySQL, MongoDB, etc. etc. etc. and all the resentment which followed.