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NVIDIA's Proposal For A New API Better Than GBM Has Already Made Some Progress

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  • #51
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    Just as it is changing GBM now. You'd be freezing graphics development and wayland porting for quite a few years, and slowing it down afterwards too as there would be 2 backend protocols. That's not acceptable.
    I suspect we'll see otherwise. As much as this will be annoying the folks already using GBM, I think they'll be pragmatic on this too. They may find Nvidia frustrating, but the likes of Gnome and KDE (and the distros backing them) won't want to have to say "Nvidia hardware will never be supported". I think they'll do what it takes to work with Nvidia on making this proposed API a success - probably continuing with GBM so as not to block the Wayland rollout, while moving to the new API in parallel.

    They won't like it, but I'm pretty sure they'll do it - because they're pragmatic, and they know that pretending Nvidia doesn't exist isn't an answer.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by M@GOid View Post
      Now is time to Nvidia swallow their pride and follow the path others are taking, instead of demanding everybody to do their way.
      I mean no disrespect to Wayland devs or KDE devs or whatever, but of the groups involved the one with the best graphics knowledge by far is nvidia. I do trust their expertise more than some of the others. So who should swallow pride and respect the most knowledgeable engineers when it comes to programming GPUs?

      And I don't care about anything that Intel says about Linux graphics. Intel treats Linux graphics like a red-headed bastard stepchild, not much better than some of the third-rate ARM companies. All that company cares about is getting a display to light up.

      People here seem to think that Nvidia is some nefarious evil entity run by a mustache-twirler intent on blowing up the world. Nvidia has a metric craptop of customers running GPU applications on non-Windows systems and that diversification is only broadening as the years go by. Of all the GPU parties out there they have the most skin in the game.

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      • #53
        Originally posted by Delgarde View Post

        I suspect we'll see otherwise. As much as this will be annoying the folks already using GBM, I think they'll be pragmatic on this too. They may find Nvidia frustrating, but the likes of Gnome and KDE (and the distros backing them) won't want to have to say "Nvidia hardware will never be supported". I think they'll do what it takes to work with Nvidia on making this proposed API a success - probably continuing with GBM so as not to block the Wayland rollout, while moving to the new API in parallel.

        They won't like it, but I'm pretty sure they'll do it - because they're pragmatic, and they know that pretending Nvidia doesn't exist isn't an answer.
        I would love for them to say NVIDIA wont be supported. It will be the same as game developers saying only NVIDIA GPUs are supported because they decided to go with NVIDIA's locked-in non-compliant OpenGL.

        If NVIDIA wants this so bad, they can dedicate several developers to open source software projects to make it happen. Otherwise they need to realize the open source community will not be simply bullied.

        It's the very same pragmatism that means they *wont* go out of their way to bend over for a proprietary vendor. That's not how we do things here. NVIDIA, don't try to force others to pay for your technological debt.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by johnc View Post

          I mean no disrespect to Wayland devs or KDE devs or whatever, but of the groups involved the one with the best graphics knowledge by far is nvidia. I do trust their expertise more than some of the others. So who should swallow pride and respect the most knowledgeable engineers when it comes to programming GPUs?

          And I don't care about anything that Intel says about Linux graphics. Intel treats Linux graphics like a red-headed bastard stepchild, not much better than some of the third-rate ARM companies. All that company cares about is getting a display to light up.

          People here seem to think that Nvidia is some nefarious evil entity run by a mustache-twirler intent on blowing up the world. Nvidia has a metric craptop of customers running GPU applications on non-Windows systems and that diversification is only broadening as the years go by. Of all the GPU parties out there they have the most skin in the game.
          Even as a happy NVIDIA user (I run a GTX 680 under nouveau and am quite pleased with the results) I cannot help but laugh, faced with that sort of silliness.
          NVIDIA engineers absolutely aren't the best and brightest. If that was the case, there wouldn't have been that many major fuckups (no full DX12 support for earlier cards -- turns out starshipeleven was right about that and I'm more than willing to acknowledge that this makes him the victor of our previous debates -- driver revisions -- even WHQL approved ones under Windows -- bricking entire boards, etc, etc).

          The one thing they're good at is rigging the game. Either by releasing proprietary technology that only works on their GPUs (and, in most cases, only under Windows) or by applying driver-side trickery to make their GPUs appear faster, at the expensive of image quality.

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          • #55
            Originally posted by Delgarde View Post
            I suspect we'll see otherwise.
            Basing this on? All blog posts from DE and driver devs are pretty much in agreement about "not giving a fuck about EGLStreams". https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/bl...stream-or-not/

            They may find Nvidia frustrating, but the likes of Gnome and KDE (and the distros backing them) won't want to have to say "Nvidia hardware will never be supported". I think they'll do what it takes to work with Nvidia on making this proposed API a success - probably continuing with GBM so as not to block the Wayland rollout, while moving to the new API in parallel.
            Yeah, and also come at my home and give me money.
            You are hallucinating, I already said they don't have the resources to make something like that without basically halting development on other sides, that's why even if EGLStreams appears to be better than GBM none is really giving a fuck apart from butthurt NVIDIA fanboys.

            They won't like it, but I'm pretty sure they'll do it - because they're pragmatic, and they know that pretending Nvidia doesn't exist isn't an answer.
            Yes, and you are still blind to the fact that for everyone involved EGLStreams is actually worse.

            Really, you are making this appear much worse than it is.
            This just means people on NVIDIA blob will have to stay on Xorg, for all distros it's orders of magnitude easier to just keep that old dog around (also because Unix and BSDs) and for 99% of the userbase it won't be noticeable.

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            • #56
              unapproved post for Delgarde above

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              • #57
                Originally posted by Delgarde View Post
                They won't like it, but I'm pretty sure they'll do it - because they're pragmatic, and they know that pretending Nvidia doesn't exist isn't an answer.
                What makes you think this? You're purely guessing AFAIC. I've seen nothing to support this thought. 1) GNOME does NOT appreciate multiple APIs for pretty much the same thing. How is anyone going to be able to test it? 2) It would require GNOME/KDE to have the hardware as well as running proprietary software to support this. GNOME was pretty much started because of the Qt license (ages ago). 3) For KDE, the KWin developer already will not support Mir and anything distro specific.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by johnc View Post
                  I mean no disrespect to Wayland devs or KDE devs or whatever, but of the groups involved the one with the best graphics knowledge by far is nvidia.
                  *Cough*Mantle/Vulkan*Cough*, *Cough*AsyncShaders*Cough*

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                  • #59
                    NVidia devs already told somewhere, that they can implement GBM if they had to, but they rather not, because it will suck for various reasons. It is quite possible that they are right and it will be better for everyone or maybe that they have some special optimisation tricks they are doing, that others don't - could be a reason their drivers work great and amd still suck.

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                    • #60
                      Originally posted by Stellarwind View Post
                      NVidia devs already told somewhere, that they can implement GBM if they had to, but they rather not, because it will suck for various reasons. It is quite possible that they are right and it will be better for everyone or maybe that they have some special optimisation tricks they are doing, that others don't - could be a reason their drivers work great and amd still suck.
                      It's NVIDIA's fault that they have an architecture that might not be so great. AMD drivers don't suck. Have you even used the new open source AMDGPU drivers?

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