Please write about NVidia's 2D performance problems

[unimatrix]

You revive an year-old thread to post what accounts to a "mee too"?! Why? You could at least specify which configuration gives you the trouble, otherwise that was a pretty useless post.

If you are still using Ubuntu 8.04 as in that thread, understand that it's almost two years old and both X.Org and the nVidia drivers have progressed immensely since. I don't have any problems with any of my 4 nVidia-based computers, all running up-to-date versions of software (KDE 4.2) and drivers. If you do have these problems with recent versions, posting in the nVidia forums would certainly be better since you'd've found a possibly rare bug.

I have had these problems with EVERY ubuntu version and with every nvidia driver version.
I have posted to nvnews: http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=135027 ( even videos showing the problem ) and ubuntuforums: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1257784 and http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1196716
Most of those are firefox-oriented, because the problem is most visible there, but obviously it's system-wide.

And I have tried absolutely everything. Phoronix is my last hope, that is why I am now posting here.

[mgc8]

Now that's more like it... however, it is still not clear to what extent your problems are identical to what you quoted. After looking through the linked threads, it seems you ran browser benchmarks that show difference under Linux (which is to be expected) yet the actual "feel" of the system as a whole was not unuseably slow, just "not right".

I understand that "speed" of an interface is a very subjective matter, but what this thread was discussing was dead-slow behaviour of applications -- like a window that is impossible to scroll because of the speed, or an app taking many seconds to maximize or minimize. Your experience on the other hand seems more about things being slower than in windows, taking longer to show up or load or having slower benchmark numbers; while that is indeed a real problem with Linux atm., it affects all video configurations to some extent (see the recent "Intel graphics regressions" articles on this very site) not just nVidia and as such deserves a sepparate discussion.

The 185/190 driver revisions have solved most issues that people were experiencing, so if you still have extremely slow behaviour then it certainly is a bug, perhaps related to a certain board/bios/etc. configuration, and the thread on NV forums should help fix that. By the way, did you try the same tests with the nv driver (or nouveau) to get a direct comparison?

As to the general slowness of a Linux Desktop vs. the same system running *win, basically you can blame the X System -- however, keep in mind that for all it's weaknesses, you can use X in ways that are simply impossible with other OS'es: try running Firefox on your server with the window displaying on a thin client for example... It's all about tradeoffs.

[unimatrix]

Now that's more like it... however, it is still not clear to what extent your problems are identical to what you quoted. After looking through the linked threads, it seems you ran browser benchmarks that show difference under Linux (which is to be expected) yet the actual "feel" of the system as a whole was not unuseably slow, just "not right".

I understand that "speed" of an interface is a very subjective matter, but what this thread was discussing was dead-slow behaviour of applications -- like a window that is impossible to scroll because of the speed, or an app taking many seconds to maximize or minimize. Your experience on the other hand seems more about things being slower than in windows, taking longer to show up or load or having slower benchmark numbers; while that is indeed a real problem with Linux atm., it affects all video configurations to some extent (see the recent "Intel graphics regressions" articles on this very site) not just nVidia and as such deserves a sepparate discussion.

The 185/190 driver revisions have solved most issues that people were experiencing, so if you still have extremely slow behaviour then it certainly is a bug, perhaps related to a certain board/bios/etc. configuration, and the thread on NV forums should help fix that. By the way, did you try the same tests with the nv driver (or nouveau) to get a direct comparison?

As to the general slowness of a Linux Desktop vs. the same system running *win, basically you can blame the X System -- however, keep in mind that for all it's weaknesses, you can use X in ways that are simply impossible with other OS'es: try running Firefox on your server with the window displaying on a thin client for example... It's all about tradeoffs.

First of all I have to say I'm so glad to get a reply from someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

I will be replying to your last paragraph because that is the case here. That is basically the whole problem - The same system is being slower and less responsive on Xorg than on *win. I suspected Xorg was to blame. I have tried it with nv too, and it wasn't any better. Possibly even worse. (but seriously, nv is a piece of s**t, even vesa has better 2d rendering performance)
So my question is, is there anything that can be done about it?
If not, then I'm afraid Linux will never be a successful desktop OS. It is just too frustrating to have all these tiny delays when minimizing/maximizind, opening/closing windows and especially the scrolling lag. I'm seriously thinking of switching back to Windows, because this is really getting on my nerves. (Not a threat, just being honest here. I love linux, but I simply cannot live with this.)

[nanonyme]

It is just too frustrating to have all these tiny delays when minimizing/maximizind, opening/closing windows and especially the scrolling lag.

How long are they? Sub-second pauses or longer? Sub-second pauses are plenty frustrating too, just wondering if you're experiencing the same I am.

[unimatrix]

How long are they? Sub-second pauses or longer? Sub-second pauses are plenty frustrating too, just wondering if you're experiencing the same I am.

Yes, definitely sub-second.

A nice example would be unminimizing a window in Metacity. You can literally see how the window border appears with a delay, after the window content.
Or scrolling the music collection in Rhythmbox. Scroll clearly lags behind the mouse cursor.

[nanonyme]

Right. That'd be similar to what I've seen on a different card and drivers too so might be X itself. I found compositing helped a bit in some latency cases but made some others a bit slower.

[unimatrix]

Right. That'd be similar to what I've seen on a different card and drivers too so might be X itself. I found compositing helped a bit in some latency cases but made some others a bit slower.

Yes, same in my case. Compositing greatly reduces CPU usage in plenty of cases (in result things run smoother), but also reduces performance in other cases. See my GtkPerf test results: http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...2&postcount=26

EDIT: Since this is most likely a problem with X, I really wish I could try out Wayland. Anyone know if it works with nvidia drivers?

[unimatrix]

I made a video of a messagebox appearing: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/121855/pub/blip.avi
See how some parts of it appear with an annoying delay? It's not that bad, but it's annoying.

Here's the video in slow motion: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/121855/pu...low_motion.avi
(If it doesn't work in VLC, thank Avidemux).

PS: No compiz in this video. Compiz hides this with its animations that not many of us want because they represent even larger delays.

[nanonyme]

No compiz in this video. Compiz hides this with its animations that not many of us want because they represent even larger delays.

It's different even without the animations though. If they're using double-buffering (which I'd assume they do), they can draw the window completely in backbuffer, then flip it into frontbuffer and user only sees it a) not drawn b) completely drawn.

[mgc8]

I suspected Xorg was to blame. I have tried it with nv too, and it wasn't any better. Possibly even worse.

Well, in that case this is not necessarily a problem with the nVidia drivers, it is something that has different causes. Discussing it in this thread is not really appropriate since it would make people blame one part of the system when others are responsible.

So my question is, is there anything that can be done about it? If not, then I'm afraid Linux will never be a successful desktop OS

Everyone has different expectations when it comes to using a computer, for some it's applications that matter, for others the eye candy, some value responsiveness while others place number crunching performance on top.

Up to this stage, GNU/Linux as an OS was never seriously developed for the Desktop, there are only some attempts from distros like Ubuntu or Suse to improve performance, but that's it. The kernel was originally only optimized for server use, nowadays there is serious work going on to bring desktop features like KMS and better desktop-optimized scheduling into it, but it's a slow process... Likewise, X.Org as the only display option right now has a design based around client-server fuctionality, not lightning-fast desktop use. It can do things that are impossible in other OS'es, but at the same time it introduces difficult-to-solve performance problems. Furthermore, the whole driver stack is undergoing significant changes on the ATI and Intel sides, so there are plenty of bugs and regressions to be solved there.

That being said, as far back as I remember (and that's around 10 years), 2D acceleration was always poor in Linux and never on par with either *win or MacOSX. I never gave it much thought because I care more for using a free OS than snappy text-boxes, but it is a nagging problem and one that gives newcomers a feel of "slowness" that they associate with the whole OS... Perhaps this should be addressed more seriously by the X.Org/Qt/GTK/etc. devs, there are certainly ways of improving it without switching to a whole different display system like Wayland (which AFAIK does not work on nVidia yet). I'd start bugging them on mailing lists and bug trackers, but wait until the whole KMS/GEM/Gallium thing stabilizes, there's little hope of any kind of improvement until then.