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NVIDIA Doesn't Expect To Have Linux 5.9 Driver Support For Another Month

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  • mlau
    replied
    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    Its actually hilarious because if Linux had a Hybrid/Micro Kernel design this wouldn't even be a discussion. The NVidia blob would be sitting in userspace (or Ring 0 environment) like any other program and would communicate with the kernel via some interface.
    The issue here is that linux refuses to carry around outdated interfaces when better ones are available, and that is completely unrelated to monolithic-vs-microkernel.

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  • mdedetrich
    replied
    Originally posted by Volta View Post

    Too bad you didn't have logitech wireless gamepad. It was nearly impossible to make it work in crap like WIndows 7. It works out of the box in Linux.
    I just had a quick look and this was due to logitech not providing a driver for Windows, so you can blame logitech here. Same problem as countless devices that don't work on Linux because it has no driver.

    If you modify the generic XInput driver to work with the logitech gamepad then Windows works with it fine.

    Originally posted by Volta View Post
    Tell this to those two freaks blind man.
    I am pretty sure I know who I am speaking to.



    Originally posted by tildearrow View Post

    Because Windows is the slowest operating system ever made, or at least when it comes to disk operations.
    Doing something simple takes too long, and sometimes even clicking takes too long.
    Actually the issue here isn't to do with NTFS, per say. The actual problem is that NTFS allows other programs to install hooks whenever a file operation happens (classic example here is anti virus) and this slows down the FS operations a lot.

    Of course backwards compatibility is the problem here, if Windows fixed this then it would break a lot of programs. This issue was made very publicly visible with Node.js on WIndows 10 (node.js stores the entire dependency tree of its program in files) and there was little that could be done to solve the problem.

    Originally posted by bug77 View Post

    A fair point, but you will agree a closed driver running on top of an open kernel does not impact the kernel's future (or present) availability.
    Its actually hilarious because if Linux had a Hybrid/Micro Kernel design this wouldn't even be a discussion. The NVidia blob would be sitting in userspace (or Ring 0 environment) like any other program and would communicate with the kernel via some interface.

    This issue has less to do with GPL than people think, its more to do with Linux sticking with an arguably archaic technical design for their kernel (every other kernel out there that has significant usage is either micro or hybrid kernel).
    Last edited by mdedetrich; 19 October 2020, 02:30 AM.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by zexelon View Post
    I have run nvidia consumer grade cards in VM's for a long time now. I have a dev environ running a 1070 in a vm right now and its been perfectly stable. The same machine also has a pair of M40's in it, and yes they dont require hacks to use in production and that is nice.

    But to be honest, VM'ing windows with GPU pass through is 100% an edge case on desktop. I did it for about 5 years between KVM and Xen and yes it works and it has a certain "coolness" factor to it, but now I am just back to dual booting. Its just easier and more sane to maintain.
    I find windows in VM with AMD cards not a problem. Dual booting is not useful for the case you have reference files from designers using windows that you need to look at while doing the Linux work. Ok I could solve it with 2 complete computers on desk but that another form of waste but then you don't have copy past between vm to host and other useful things.

    So its not just a coolness thing sometimes it the right workflow thing. The reality that code 43 by setting KVM and Xen right can be worked around. I guess you also found that the M40 with particular windows desktop applications don't perform as well as if you use a 1070 or a AMD card.

    Its the hard point that desktop applications are more often designed for your consumer grade cards than you business/enterprise ones. This causes issue that you really need to provide VM at times with the card type the application was built for. This is where Nvidia is being a jackass.

    Mxgpu from AMD and GVT-g from intel allows using 1 graphics card with multi VM this feature is product restricted makes sense. But saying X model cards can not be used with VM tech really does not make sense any more.

    Please note nvidia code 43 has bitten those at times running WSL2 because a form of hyper-v is activated to allow WSL2 it work under windows. So code 43 is not just screwing up Linux desktop users either.

    Be it a Linux Desktop or a Windows desktop some form of hypervisor is coming more and more likely so having driver fail because it detects hypervisor/virtual machine is now coming wrong.

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  • tildearrow
    replied
    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    * And virtualizing Windows just to play games? Why can't you just boot into Windows straight away?
    Because Windows is the slowest operating system ever made, or at least when it comes to disk operations.
    Doing something simple takes too long, and sometimes even clicking takes too long.

    Leave a comment:


  • zexelon
    replied
    I have run nvidia consumer grade cards in VM's for a long time now. I have a dev environ running a 1070 in a vm right now and its been perfectly stable. The same machine also has a pair of M40's in it, and yes they dont require hacks to use in production and that is nice.

    But to be honest, VM'ing windows with GPU pass through is 100% an edge case on desktop. I did it for about 5 years between KVM and Xen and yes it works and it has a certain "coolness" factor to it, but now I am just back to dual booting. Its just easier and more sane to maintain.

    I think Error 43 wont be going away any time soon, but its more of a warning this could go baddly than anything else.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    I thought we were discussing NVIDIA's troubles with GPL obsessed kernel developers.
    The hate of Nvidia is not that simple. The thing you missed is it was as the ruling in china spread though the Linux kernel developers came aware GPL separation has to be more strictly enforced.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    Turns out the fact that NVIDIA wants to earn money off people who like to use their consumer products in a business environment* is a deadly sin.
    If I obey that rule I cannot use Nvidia at all. There is a problem with their cards.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    * And virtualizing Windows just to play games?
    Its not just for games. Adobe creative cloud applications like premier and photoshop in fact use the GPU. Even MS Office excel in different places will use the GPU. Since you have not done this you don't understand what you require.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    Why can't you just boot into Windows straight away?
    Because this does not work in many workflows. Like you will have a case where you have drawing in photoshop that has what is wished for in server side. Of course since server side is Linux you need Linux on the bare metal to be testing. So boot into windows straight way would result in need 2 computers instead of one.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    Why all the unnecessary complications and hassles?
    This is because you are ignoring the complications in the work case where you are needing todo stuff on Linux at the same time as accessing stuff on windows. Microsoft is not adding WSL2 to windows 10 for no reason. Lot of us are not bitting because hyper-v is the wrong hypervisor to match up to hosting so using WSL2 will give deceptive results.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    Besides virtualization incurs a performance penalty and offers less than perfect behavior.
    That exactly true and it also the reason why we will be virtualizing windows inside Linux. If you end product is going to be something Linux based and your reference material is coming in on software that is Windows based the correct workflow configuration is windows virtualized inside Linux. So that imperfect behaviour of the virtual machine does not effect your end result.

    The performance penalty depends on the problem. For a GPU bound program the overhead of the virtualization may not matter at all. Yes photoshop doing different things end up GPU bound.

    GPU bound workflows is where the current Nvidia mix of cards falls down for use using virtual machines. Like photoshop is a good example here to show the problem. Yes it supports opencl and opengl shaders so in theory it should be just as good on consumer/desktop cards as Nvidia server and workstation cards. There is a problem the opengl shader route is better optimised than the opencl route. You Nvidia consumer/desktop and server/workstation cards have basically the same size bit if silicon inside but your mix of cores is different. Consumer/desktop have more shader cores and less compute cores and you server/workstation have more compute and less shader cores. This is one of the insane locations where if you obey the rule that you will not use consumer products in a business environment the fastest business grade card choice is a AMD pro card and of course this is going to be slower than Windows on bare metal with a Nvidia consumer gpu by a large margin with the current cards.

    There are many reason why Linux users hate Nvidia. Its really simple to miss some hate is the code 43 problem. Yes code 43 is attempt to split their business and consumer clients so they can change more for the business card. That fine if the business cards in fact have an absolute equal to the consumer cards the problem is that does not exist.

    The reality here is Nvidia is not giving Linux users cards that out the box are right for the Linux users needs. Why Linux users hope that Intel or AMD deliver a decent high end card is not only to go open source but also in the hope it will force Nvidia to correct their insanity by either releasing a new line of cards or removing the 43 code error.



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  • birdie
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Stop there.
    I thought we were discussing NVIDIA's troubles with GPL obsessed kernel developers. Turns out the fact that NVIDIA wants to earn money off people who like to use their consumer products in a business environment* is a deadly sin. I get it but it's beside the point. And again, if there are better products out there, go buy them and forget about this evil corporation. It looks like people have run out of ideas how to insult NVIDIA at every turn, so now they are just throwing everything and the kitchen sink into the mix.

    * And virtualizing Windows just to play games? Why can't you just boot into Windows straight away? Why all the unnecessary complications and hassles? Besides virtualization incurs a performance penalty and offers less than perfect behavior.
    Last edited by birdie; 18 October 2020, 07:46 PM.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    Can we just replace this comment with "I hate NVIDIA for trying to earn money"? And, no, 99.9% of users out there don't use virtualization in any shape or form - you're not a home user.
    Stop there. Linux home users are way more likely to use virtualisation for the the case they have to run Windows software. Linux desktop users are a small percentage that is right but it does not mean they have the budget for high end cards either. Mind you it does get insane that you can spend over 1000 dollars on a Nvidia graphics card and it still need the work around. Yes RTX 2080 cards throw error 43. Yes the latest rtx 3090 also throws error 43.

    A common problem of nvidia gpus, passthrough to a virtual machine running windows, is caused by the error 43. This article helps fighting that error.

    Yes work around. All nvidia forces by their method of anti-vm is more complex VM setup to hide the fact that its inside a VM.

    The horrible reality is that RTX 2080 and RTX 3090 have a different mix of cores to the Nvidia workstaton/server cards that Nvidia drivers straight up support running VM on. So you cannot buy a Nvidia workstation/server card are be faster in every workload to the desktop card. So this here forces hand that Nvidia drivers blocking usage in VM has to be worked around as you cannot spend money and buy a different card to fix the problem. So this is Nvidia being an annoying jackass.


    AMD also releases cards that are not ideal of virtualisation but they also don't stupidly make their drivers detect a VM and auto fail. MxGPU feature on AMD is hardware restricted to only the pro cards. Yes this is the means to have host and VM use the same card and to get this feature you have to pay for the more expensive cards. Notice something is market segmentation that people cannot hack their way around.


    Please note AMD pro cards have the same GPU core mix as the top end AMD desktop cards so they perform the same. Really Nvidia is missing a complete line of cards the result is Nvidia puts people with the rock and hard place problem being the follow:
    1) by a really expensive workstation/server card that does not right task the best to get VM support.
    2) use a desktop card hack around the driver lock to VM support so using card in way that is not support by Nvidia so their task performed right.

    Something to be aware of with Pcie 4 8x slot is fast enough. More and more of the entry level AMD B550 boards in fact support pci bifurcation to support 2 graphics card. SLI/Crossfire is not that usable. But a person on this generation of entry level motherboards is coming able to use 2 GPU cards. Now if this is not for SLI/Crossfire who is the market to sell those extra cards to. That right Linux users running Windows in VM doing GPU passthough.

    AMD had the advantage here since they were design the motherboard chipset of the future boards have been able to see how the market was going to change. Nvidia needs to get the memo. That multi gpu is back for a particular percentage of their market space and those are not looking for cards optimised for server/workstation cards but optimised for desktop that support virtualisation so Nvidia you need to either drop the 43 error or release a new line of cards for this market.

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  • bug77
    replied
    Originally posted by cjcox View Post
    sdack I sense your frustration. But I think maybe you're just a bit "over the top". I'm not saying we don't need passionate people standing up for their beliefs, just make sure you're not throwing out most of the conversation in the process. As for me, I do not consider it "fear" to want software to be available longer term. I think people would be amazed at the software that has been destroyed (permanently lost) over the years. But yes, there can be "agendas", even when there is good intent.
    A fair point, but you will agree a closed driver running on top of an open kernel does not impact the kernel's future (or present) availability.

    Leave a comment:


  • Volta
    replied
    And let it be testament to shit company like nvidia and its imbecile followers:



    When people complain to me about the lack of Nvidia support in Sway, I get really pissed off. It is not my fucking problem to support Nvidia, it’s Nvidia’s fucking problem to support me. Even Broadcom, fucking Broadcom, supports the appropriate kernel APIs. And proprietary driver users have the gall to reward Nvidia for their behavior by giving them hundreds of dollars for their GPUs, then come to me and ask me to deal with their bullshit for free. Well, fuck you, too. Nvidia users are shitty consumers and I don’t even want them in my userbase. Choose hardware that supports your software, not the other way around.

    Leave a comment:

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