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Shuttleworth On Mir: "A Fantastic Piece of Engineering"

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  • Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
    I'm actually going to assume he's a delusional academic (come to think of it, isn't that statement redundant?) like the other one I was arguing with over Object Oriented Programming, who thinks that math solves everything and forgets that engineering has a long and ... entertaining... past of failures before things get to the point where you can just pop out a bridge or a building. The other one was delusional enough to believe that we got sending people into space right in 1. Which if you know anything about the history of space travel... well you're busting a gut in laughter right now, or maybe crying if you had relatives involved.. Hell we weren't even able to get it right again today with the constellation project which resulted in that all being acceded to corporations..
    You are just an ignorant who doesn't even know what mathematics is. I just hope you someday grow up and realize how silly you were. You keep doing "software engineering" and I'll keep viewing late, buggy, insecure, inherently-flawed software like it has always been.

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    • So Mark Shuttleworth called Mir "a fantastic piece of engineering". That evaluation would be better off coming from someone outside of Canonical.

      Vanity is never a good look.

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      • Originally posted by ba7a7chy View Post
        This is getting out of proportion, it is still LINUX it is still OPEN SOURCE, why do you care so much about X, Mir or Wayland ? who cares ? I want this dist you want the other this is all the idea of opensource software the choice is yours, I want Ubuntu, you can have Kubuntu or W/E, really guys this sounds like a bad opera from the viva channel.....
        Apple contribute way much more opensource code than Canonical, probably even Microsoft do that. I don't use either system.
        In the old community around Ubuntu, Canonical was a part of that community. Today Ubuntu is some sort of community around Canonical instead. But it really doesn't matter for me as I switched from Ubuntu a bunch of years ago. At least not before they began with there push to split the linux graphic stack....

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        • Originally posted by AdamW View Post
          So the shape of the graph is 'very slow growth, followed by a shorter period of comparatively rapid growth, followed by zero growth'. And the numbers are still _really small_ - we're playing in the sandbox between 0% and 1%, here.
          If you look a bit around their numbers, you will find dates where the Linux numbers dropped markedly, e.g. between January and February 2012. Same for iOS between October and November. My guess is that NMS was changing their counting method there. So a growth pattern which includes such anomalies is probably not a very useful indicator for anything.

          Originally posted by AdamW View Post
          I don't think anyone would dispute that, for a period of time, Ubuntu emerged as the pre-eminent desktop Linux distribution, as RHL and Mandrake and even (very briefly) Gentoo had done before; the question I was asking is 'what has Ubuntu achieved with that pre-eminence?'
          That was not the point of the post which you were replying to. Whether Ubuntu's dominance is a good achievement or bad thing is independent from whether "the devs will follow" Ubuntu in what they are doing.

          Originally posted by AdamW View Post
          Ubuntu's great showing on EC2 isn't so much to do with Ubuntu's merits as an OS as it is to do with the good job Ubuntu has done in producing, testing, releasing and promoting EC2 images.
          You should not think for a second that users are dumb sheep that simply follow marketing or are stuck with Ubuntu/Windows/... because they don't know any better. Users choose Ubuntu because the software and ecosystem fit their needs most.

          Originally posted by AdamW View Post
          Which is obviously a great thing to do, and they've done it well. But it means that you can't necessarily generalize from the EC2 numbers. You can look at them on their own as a great achievement for Ubuntu, though, which they absolutely are.
          Originally posted by chithanh View Post
          The same is currently happening for servers. EC2 is somewhat ahead of the curve because it is not as inert as SOHO or even enterprise sectors, but clearly shows where we are heading.
          See above; it doesn't, necessarily. After all, RHEL has a stunning 100% of the OpenShift market. Clouds are funny things.
          The OpenShift numbers are like that because 1) customers who have already decided for RHEL go there and 2) they don't have a choice to install anything else. None of that applies to EC2. Anyone who thinks that the trend is not reflected in "general" or "production servers" maybe lives in a very small nutshell in denial about the outside world.
          One more data point how relevant OpenShift (or any of the other cloud operators) is in comparison to EC2 is the Freelance.co.uk Fast 50 report for Q4, Amazon AWS is now #6 top trending item. OpenShift is not even an also-ran.
          Certainly your employer pays a considerable part of the $1.3bn/year income directly to one of the analyst houses which will answer questions about market share and trends. Especially the pace at which stuff is moving into the cloud and how long it takes for the slow-moving enterprise market to reflect the operating system trends.

          Originally posted by AdamW View Post
          This is not an assertion I've ever seen backed with any hard numbers. Ubuntu is typically very vague about its actual usage statistics, and few other distros even try to release numbers; Fedora releases some, with an extensive caveat attached about how they could be utterly wrong. It's very, very hard to count Linux distro users reliably.
          Sometimes you see surveys among members of Linux User Groups like the one right before LCA 2010 (sorry that the link contains only a tarball with CSV data, as nobody bothered to make pretty graphs out of them apparently). These surveys are usually not very large (a few hundred respondents) and opt-in or even self-identified among a very narrow target demographic, so the numbers cannot be directly transferred to the general population. But the general picture that is painted here is the same in all surveys.
          Ubuntu is used by 69.3% of respondents, almost twice as many as the next biggest distro, Debian which has 35.5% (multiple distros can be named). And this is among visitors of a Linux conference, who are enthusiasts or professionals with 30% participating moderately or heavily and 75% at least occasionally in the Linux community. It seems plausible that among general users, the share of Ubuntu is even higher.

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          • Originally posted by chithanh View Post
            You should not think for a second that users are dumb sheep that simply follow marketing or are stuck with Ubuntu/Windows/... because they don't know any better. Users choose Ubuntu because the software and ecosystem fit their needs most.
            You should not think for a second that users are stuck with Ubuntu/Windows/... because the software and ecosystem fit their needs most. Users don't know squat about ecosystems. They use Windows because it came pre-installed with their PCs and because that's what they've been using for <insert number> years. And they "choose" Ubuntu because that's the only name from the Linux world they've ever heard.

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            • Originally posted by prodigy_ View Post
              You should not think for a second that users are stuck with Ubuntu/Windows/... because the software and ecosystem fit their needs most. Users don't know squat about ecosystems. They use Windows because it came pre-installed with their PCs and because that's what they've been using for <insert number> years. And they "choose" Ubuntu because that's the only name from the Linux world they've ever heard.
              Ohh stop if you think a non-tech user could manage any Linux distro, let alone a non-Ubuntu one.

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              • Mir advantages

                Mir advantages:

                LGPL with CLA is better than MIT. (MIT License is stupid)
                C++ Language (with boost)

                C is an old language.Is not capable to produce Big software like a graphics stack.I dont like C++ (complex language),but is better than C.

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                • Originally posted by prodigy_ View Post
                  Users don't know squat about ecosystems.
                  I don't think that statement is true. Users may not know the term "ecosystem", but they definitely know about the things that make up an ecosystem.

                  Examples:
                  1) Firefox. Ecosystem is mainly defined by the myriad of extensions. Users who wanted to switch to another browser (like Chrome) found it difficult at first because the extensions which they were used to didn't exist yet
                  2) Android. Ecosystem is mostly defined by apps. People like to buy Samsung Android phones, but almost nobody buys Samsung Windows phones, despite price and hardware being very similar. Most of the important popular apps are on both platforms, but few of the important non-popular ones are on WP. Like the app from your local public transport company or sports team.
                  3) Ubuntu. Ecosystem is defined by the packages. Want the latest release of some software? Find it readily availabe in an Ubuntu PPA. Banks are distributing their homebanking software precompiled and dynamically linked against libraries that are currently in Ubuntu, causing grief to users and developers of other distros.

                  Originally posted by johnc View Post
                  Ohh stop if you think a non-tech user could manage any Linux distro, let alone a non-Ubuntu one.
                  Interestingly if you look around e.g. gaming oriented forums, you will find many individuals who are knowledgeable enough to run Linux, yet they choose not to because it doesn't fit their needs. Linux doesn't run many games, good 3D acceleration is hit-and-miss, the software they use for work is Windows-only, etc.
                  This leads to the remarkable situation that some of those people install DD-WRT/OpenWrt on their routers (because it doesn't crash, allows bittorrent without causing a gaming lag, etc.) while exclusively using Windows on their desktop computer.

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                  • Originally posted by johnc View Post
                    To me it sounded like the comments about Wayland input mechanisms came from ignorance. Which, yes, is disturbing that they don't have a complete handle on how Wayland works, but that could also point to one of the overarching problems. For whatever reason they weren't interested in Wayland or weren't communicating or didn't know how to get information or just didn't care. Generally these signals can be picked up if people are paying attention.

                    I suspect the stuff they were doing "in private" came from things learned from their Ubuntu-for-Android and other touch research, but they didn't want to come forward with anything publicly until they knew they could commit to something on their own. A few weeks ago someone at Canonical mentioned that they were considering their own display server solution. I think we all expected something in-house and Google-like for their mobile OS. That they're extending it to the desktop as well is surprising, and where the real potential for failure is IMO.
                    Why should other people pick up on signals instead of relying on explicit communication? If you tell everyone you are running a community project instead of a commercial product, that isn't the healthy way to sustain it. I don't think people will care if this was some mobile only solution. I mean, Android has been running with their own for years and noone really said anything about that but the negative response is not about just presenting an alternative. If you look at the reaction even within their own project from volunteers for several years, it is self evident.

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                    • Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post
                      Why should other people pick up on signals instead of relying on explicit communication? If you tell everyone you are running a community project instead of a commercial product, that isn't the healthy way to sustain it. I don't think people will care if this was some mobile only solution. I mean, Android has been running with their own for years and noone really said anything about that but the negative response is not about just presenting an alternative. If you look at the reaction even within their own project from volunteers for several years, it is self evident.
                      I don't think Canonical see Ubuntu as a community project anymore, see shuttleworts blog about the new community he apparently think the new Ubuntu is destined to obtain.

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