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Ubuntu Announces Mir, A X.Org/Wayland Replacement

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  • phoronix
    started a topic Ubuntu Announces Mir, A X.Org/Wayland Replacement

    Ubuntu Announces Mir, A X.Org/Wayland Replacement

    Phoronix: Ubuntu Announces Mir, A X.Org/Wayland Replacement

    Canonical has lift the lid on Mir, it's name for the display server they are designing in-house. Mir will replace the X.Org Server on Ubuntu and it's not based upon Wayland or any other existing display server project...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTMxNzI

  • timothyja
    replied
    Originally posted by silix View Post
    it wouldnt be test driven development, but test retrofitted at best..
    I know what TDD is and no I'm not talking about retrofitting tests. I'm talking about any new lines or code having tests written first. Sure this misses some of the advantages on starting with TDD (such as making sure you are only have code that is 100% needed) but its still TDD and eventually over time you will have enough tests that you will gain the full advantages.

    so you spend a long time (possibly longer than with tdd - since to get a working prototype you rush development ) adding stuff that wont, by itself, make the rest of the code more streamlined, more readable, directly documented or directly mapped over working specs - which you'd possibly get directly using TDD... i fail to see the point of it...
    Sure I 100% agree with you if you are *starting* a new project TDD makes a lot of sense. But (and I should have made this point in my last post) TDD is not a reason in itself to start a project from scratch when you have an existing project that has reached a stable state and you are not going to be doing anything a whole lot different.

    In the case of Mir if TDD is so important than why not push for it to be used by the Wayland project rather than reinventing a stable project.
    Last edited by timothyja; 03-07-2013, 11:16 PM.

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  • silix
    replied
    Originally posted by timothyja View Post
    you can do TDD on an existing project.
    it wouldnt be test driven development, but test retrofitted at best..

    retrofitted tests (being usually written against the nominal use case's specification) help spot anomalies in the observable effects of the running application
    but unlike tdd testcases written before code (possibily more than one for each line of code, for the correct as well as the undesired behaviour), they are not in direct correspondence with the code they test
    thus they dont guarantee that the code is minimal (only the one "necessary and sufficient" to make the test pass ie satisfy specifications - minimality which in turn typically makes the code cleaner and more readable) nor that you cannot "change a LoC without at least one test faling" (which is the imperative with pure tdd)
    thus dont guarantee against possible hidden bugs
    and, they dont account for code documentation - unlike tdd testcases which should possibly suffice to understand the program's internals (since they're a programmatic embodiment of the program's specifications)
    Yes its takes a long time to get coverage but it just involves adding tests for any new code.
    so you spend a long time (possibly longer than with tdd - since to get a working prototype you rush development ) adding stuff that wont, by itself, make the rest of the code more streamlined, more readable, directly documented or directly mapped over working specs - which you'd possibly get directly using TDD... i fail to see the point of it...

    of course, TDD like other forms of Agile development isnt perfect, far from it - but if anything it gets you code at every iteration ("early release") that you can assume to work (ie code you dont necessarily have to go back to for bugfix testing etc, later) as soon as the iteration is complete (all test passing, assuming tests are correctly written themselves), and is inherently documented and minimal, since the earliest iterations

    OTOH, to get this you have TDD should be used from the start , hence canonical's decision

    Leave a comment:


  • Alex Sarmiento
    replied
    Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
    Either way, they're done with Linux, IMHO.

    Nobody's ever forked their other projects before, I don't see this being any different.
    Do you have any idea how many ubuntu fork distros are out there????!!!! Gosh!

    Leave a comment:


  • Alex Sarmiento
    replied
    Originally posted by funkSTAR View Post
    Canonical Marketing is doing a great job. Positive words for shitty ideas. First Harmony and Unity, now Mir(peace). Nice work marketing. Now lets drink to five years of further fragmentation and building walled gardens.
    How are those shitty ideas?

    Leave a comment:


  • timothyja
    replied
    Originally posted by silix View Post
    TDD.

    who hasnt developed a test driven project may easily dismiss the implication of this detail, but having worked with it for some games i can say it's quite deep actually...

    you have to write unit tests to see them initially fail (of course, classes and code dont even exist yet), then the (minimal) code that will make them pass (green bar in the test runner - all test methods satisfied), then refactor the code (and the tests, if you change the class hierarchy or method names) to refine the design

    this leads to (ideally) have smaller iterations, and working (and pre verified) code at each iteration
    but this also implies a NECESSITY to have the whole project developed in TDD, so that each project subunit is covered by tests, so that bugs or regressions introduced with subsequent feature iterations or refactorings, are immediately caught
    otherwise there's no point in going TDD at all

    this means that, canonical may be "right" or "wrong" by choosing such development strategy, but that doesnt matter - since they have choosen it they can't import foreign, non tdd code any more
    so no, they couldnt "just fork" an existing solution ... even if it may work just fine, even if it may be the most popular, even if it's in development for some years and even if its developers are brilliant people, the fact that they havent worked with programmatic description of specification and the fact it comes without unit tests make it a no go
    this is important to understand
    Rubbish you can do TDD on an existing project. Yes its takes a long time to get coverage but it just involves adding tests for any new code.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pallidus
    replied
    Originally posted by nerdopolis View Post
    By the looks of it, it doesn't seem to be.
    http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mir-team/mir/trunk/files
    Just the names of the files, and defined API's, and source layout, and the fact everything is in c++. It's a completely new protocol.
    holy fuck, canonical has gone full retard


    shuttleworth is probably tired of dumping money into ubuntu and now is doing one last push and if everything crashes and burn so be it


    "or it's all about licensing, control, and exclusivity of the platform (think "ecosystem": having apps on the ubuntu market not ported on other distros). "


    yes but they could easily achieve that by simply grabbing wayland (or sf) forking it and modify the shit out of it +strip it down... what they are doing baffles me as it makes no sense

    Leave a comment:


  • silix
    replied
    Originally posted by Pallidus View Post
    why would canonical waste resources, time and money, making something if they could have just forked an existing solution?
    TDD.

    who hasnt developed a test driven project may easily dismiss the implication of this detail, but having worked with it for some games i can say it's quite deep actually...

    you have to write unit tests to see them initially fail (of course, classes and code dont even exist yet), then the (minimal) code that will make them pass (green bar in the test runner - all test methods satisfied), then refactor the code (and the tests, if you change the class hierarchy or method names) to refine the design

    this leads to (ideally) have smaller iterations, and working (and pre verified) code at each iteration
    but this also implies a NECESSITY to have the whole project developed in TDD, so that each project subunit is covered by tests, so that bugs or regressions introduced with subsequent feature iterations or refactorings, are immediately caught
    otherwise there's no point in going TDD at all

    this means that, canonical may be "right" or "wrong" by choosing such development strategy, but that doesnt matter - since they have choosen it they can't import foreign, non tdd code any more
    so no, they couldnt "just fork" an existing solution ... even if it may work just fine, even if it may be the most popular, even if it's in development for some years and even if its developers are brilliant people, the fact that they havent worked with programmatic description of specification and the fact it comes without unit tests make it a no go
    this is important to understand

    Leave a comment:


  • shadowriver
    replied
    Originally posted by Pallidus View Post
    "Mir is nothing but vaporware at this point. "


    here's the irony: do a search for wayland + vaporware and you will see how many people said the exact same thing about wayland.


    here's where I'm coming from:

    I hate xorg, tired of the stupidy that is setting up conf files to try different options and xorg needs to die, NAY, should have died already...

    enter wayland

    for 5 years nothing but promises and "oh it's going to be terrific" " oh it's so great"

    bla bla fucking bla

    I even remember seeing here and other places that ubuntu 12.04 would be using xwayland/weston what the fuck ever

    12.04 didn't, then I heard the same about 12.10 that canonical was desperate to port ubuntu into wayland...

    12.10 came and went and now it's 13.04... still no signs of wayland


    this is a new fucking world where tech is moving fast, you can't take 5 years to make a gay display manager for fucks sake.

    and now these stupid ass wayland devs act all surprised and offended that canonical said 'fuck this' and made their own...

    wayland will be ready when 2015? let me fucking lol

    it can be the biggest piece of shit ever made, but at least in little more than a years time canonical will release something
    Then why they they not use there working power to back up Wayland development if they tired of looking how slow it goes? Instead they making own thing from 0. So there really 2 possible reasons why they did that:

    1.They don't like where Wayland is going, so they going there own way
    2.They don't want to contribute... as they always did, so they making there own thing to have control over what they using.
    Last edited by shadowriver; 03-06-2013, 02:50 PM.

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  • nerdopolis
    replied
    Originally posted by Pallidus View Post
    I actually am perplexed by this clusterfuck...

    it simply does not make sense that canonical would waste this many resources into making a brand new display manager from scratch


    I hope that mir is just a fork of wayland with some stuff modified/stripped

    that would make the most sense, be the most sensible, and canonical wouldn't just straight up admit it in order not to look shady...

    has anyone actually had access to mir's code?
    By the looks of it, it doesn't seem to be.
    http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mir-team/mir/trunk/files
    Just the names of the files, and defined API's, and source layout, and the fact everything is in c++. It's a completely new protocol.

    Leave a comment:

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