It Looks Like Intel Could Begin Pushing Graphics Tech More Seriously

[dungeon]

If someone wanna play AAA games on PC comfortably he should watch what GPU current gaming consoles have and then buy something like double faster card and double faster CPU than that just to be on safe side

I mean just look at GFLOPS of Neo APU found in PS4-PRO, that is 4.2K and XO-X will be 6K.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s#Console_GPUs

Which means PC gamer need at least that but just for selected titles (and with a lot of luck with generic APIs ) so or even better 9-12K GFLOPS to claim clear rig advantage for year 2018+ AAA gaming

Meanwhile fastest current Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 is ~0.9K GFLOPS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_...hics#Kaby_Lake

That does not yet matched even Durango's 1.3 to not talk about 1.8 of Liverpool, blah. blah... and that is just raw power i don't calculated luck which PC user needs to have that title is properly optimized or so

To not mention that average Intel user probably get that HD 630, which is 0.4K GFLOPS to not mention that HD620/610 are even less Of course that is 10-20 times more power than RPi VC4 but for comfort AAA gaming these are decade or two behind, there is no at least similar raw power to start comparison

Of course if user disable something it might be playable or so, so that is what Intel suggests... on average "start with setting game on lowest and see if it is playable"

[Michael_S]

I condemn anyone that does not do his own research and buys whatever is on sale.

It is the best way to get fucked sideways and end up with whatever random crap the seller was trying to get rid of (which should already speak about how much it is desirable). It is a sign of stupidity, and I despise stupidity.
Humans are called "homo sapiens sapiens", which is "man who knows that he knows", it's the meta-thinking and abstraction ability are what makes a human, not the ability to talk and understand spoken language.

The complexity of the field is not relevant, if you need something you should be able to do a decent choice. If you know you don't know enough to tell good from bad you look for experts and reviews, in real life or the Internet. Not assume whatever is on sale is OK.

The whole reason software project estimates suck is that no matter how brilliant you are, a lot of the complexity you have to solve doesn't become apparent until you're part way into implementing the solution.

A complex purchase has the same problem. Sometimes you don't figure out what is wrong about the product until after you've been using it for a while. I'm better at shopping for cars, home improvements, computers, vacations, etc... etc... now mostly because I know what to look for, and I know what to look for because I made mistakes five, ten, and fifteen years ago.

And again, the average person doesn't even realize that there's complexity at play. They view a computer as an appliance - you can pick any model of coffee maker and make coffee, you can pick any model of a Playstation 4 at the store and play any Playstation 4 game, why can't you pick any PC and play PC games?

And I'll also respectfully disagree on the level of complexity of smartphones, TVs, apartment rentals (and housing in general), and pets.

Oh, I think there's plenty of complexity there. But still less than PC shopping. You can't say, "I'll rent the apartment on 4th street with the landlord from Oak street and the kitchen from the place in Vickstown." You have a whole package, take it or leave it. Likewise, you can't say, "Give me a Chihuahua, but swap out the temperament for one from a Yellow Labrador."

Buying a house or apartment is more complicated, that's why I mentioned rentals.

With a PC, an informed consumer has a colossal number of possible combinations of options. That makes it more complicated than those other topics.

(Edit) And when you do buy a pet, for example, at most decent places the staff will go over with you what you need and why you need it for care of the animal. And that's all pretty intuitive - your pet needs to sleep and eat. If some non-technical person is in Best Buy looking at PCs and the sales staff tries to convince them to get a gaming rig, they're likely to think it's just some jackass trying to get more money out of them.

And they usually do. I've yet to see devices with only iGPUs being marketed as "gaming", outside of dodgy internet ebay auctions, anyway.

Right.

[starshipeleven]

No, I'm saying car manufacturers should make cars that can drive, just as much as Intel should make GPU's that can game.

No, you're saying that all cars should be race cars.
Quit posting this bullshit assumption that all people need to game on their PC, and get out more and see what normal people does outside.

If you really were working in IT support/repair (instead of just claiming bullshit) you would know that the average home PC is a piece of garbage with a P4 or at most a crappy Core Duo, where "gaming" is not even remotely possible regardless of what GPU you install.

And the reason they still use that garbage is that they don't NEED to game, plain and simple. They use it for internet and documents and email. OH THE HORROR.

[starshipeleven]

The whole reason software project estimates suck is that no matter how brilliant you are, a lot of the complexity you have to solve doesn't become apparent until you're part way into implementing the solution.

On the contrary of software, PC hardware is already "solved" and benchmarked and stuff. So you can get away with looking things up or asking an expert.

A complex purchase has the same problem. Sometimes you don't figure out what is wrong about the product until after you've been using it for a while. I'm better at shopping for cars, home improvements, computers, vacations, etc... etc... now mostly because I know what to look for, and I know what to look for because I made mistakes five, ten, and fifteen years ago.

And what I said is that most people would have already made that mistake long ago with something else, and normal-IQ people would eventually get the point that maybe they need to research a bit, or ask experts in fields they don't understand, before buying something new they knew nothing about.

Not to go in boldly and assume there is no complexity at all.

And again, the average person doesn't even realize that there's complexity at play. They view a computer as an appliance - you can pick any model of coffee maker and make coffee, you can pick any model of a Playstation 4 at the store and play any Playstation 4 game, why can't you pick any PC and play PC games?

See above, just assuming that there is no complexity everywhere just because in some cases it is indeed simple... is stupid.

Oh, I think there's plenty of complexity there. But still less than PC shopping. You can't say, "I'll rent the apartment on 4th street with the landlord from Oak street and the kitchen from the place in Vickstown." You have a whole package, take it or leave it.

Yeah, and failing to notice the details can be disastrous (like for example neighbours, electrical outlet quality, insulation and noise dampening, or whatever else).

Likewise, you can't say, "Give me a Chihuahua, but swap out the temperament for one from a Yellow Labrador."

It's a bit more complex, outside of easy-mode breeds like Labradors and maybe a few others, you need to pay attention to the dog's individual behavior, as like with any intelligent animal they do have their own personality too and you can easily end up with a very bossy dog that is a pain to keep in line (the dog constantly tries to control you, a natural Alpha dog), or a highly problematic animal with weird behaviours (common danger if you take it from shelters), or even a dangerous one that bites people and has to be put down.

Also, ever seen guides on how to keep exotic fish? It's not just "buy a bowl and fill it with water".

With a PC, an informed consumer has a colossal number of possible combinations of options. That makes it more complicated than those other topics.

As I said, the consumer isn't necessarily required to make the decision on his own, but to find experts to guide him. Knowing how to find experts is crucial in life as you will need to do many things you are not an expert on.

If some non-technical person is in Best Buy looking at PCs and the sales staff tries to convince them to get a gaming rig, they're likely to think it's just some jackass trying to get more money out of them.

Most staff in the big shops isn't worth a damn. They'll try to sell you any kind of overpriced crap if they get the chance, be it PCs, lawn movers, or chairs.
Still falls into the "finding an expert" field. They aren't experts.

[Michael_S]

starshipeleven - good points.

Where I see most people make mistakes with PC purchases is their first one. A high schooler or college student saves up for their first PC, grandpa decides he should look into this 'email' thing, or similar... For most of the people over age twenty or twenty-five, that event is in the past and they know to do their research. But I suspect some of those high school kids and such will continue to make that kind of mistake, indefinitely.

I may have already mentioned it earlier in the thread, but this past winter one of my son's friends decided to build a gaming PC. My son is a gaming PC enthusiast, and pushed him towards a good graphics card and modest CPU. The boy instead bought into marketing and word-of-mouth and got an Intel i7 7700k and an RX 460, and was crushed when he got lower frame rates at the same resolution and graphics settings than a classmate with a Pentium 4560 and a better video card.

[starshipeleven]

starshipelevenBut I suspect some of those high school kids and such will continue to make that kind of mistake, indefinitely.

And that's perfectly fine as they are still young and lack proper experience to deal with the unknown (I mean, teens make horrible mistakes anywhere they try without assistance, not just on PC hardware).
If they don't listen to the right people (and they usually don't, dem kids, you know) then they will learn it the hard way.
As long as they learn their lesson (who to trust and who to NOT trust when getting info), then it's fine.

But if instead they convince themselves that (for example ) all PCs of the world must be gaming rigs and that it is Intel's fault if that isn't the case, then there is a problem.

[duby229]

No, you're saying that all cars should be race cars.
Quit posting this bullshit assumption that all people need to game on their PC, and get out more and see what normal people does outside.

If you really were working in IT support/repair (instead of just claiming bullshit) you would know that the average home PC is a piece of garbage with a P4 or at most a crappy Core Duo, where "gaming" is not even remotely possible regardless of what GPU you install.

And the reason they still use that garbage is that they don't NEED to game, plain and simple. They use it for internet and documents and email. OH THE HORROR.

You're definitely wrong again. When a chip comes off the line it's already paid for. Mass production is the whole fucking point. If Bic made 1 lighter at time, they'd 47 dollars each. Same fucking difference and you know it.

And you keep insisting that people don't game but your wrong, they do! This is the whole fucking reason the PC gaming market collapsed a decade ago, and people still have this completely retarded mindstate even today.

[grok]

The problem is you blame Intel for software issues. Microsoft out modes old hardware with new Windows releases on purpose to drive sales of Windows Licenses. It really doesn't matter what Intel does because MS needs the license sales. The performance of Windows will always suck on baseline hardware.

Well not really, even Windows 10 requires just a 64bit Pentium 4 (or a 32bit Pentium 4 with NX bit, which seems to be the exact same, only Intel took time validating the features and microcode and so some have 64bit enabled and some don't)

Of course you'd want gigs of RAM on that Pentium 4, at least a fast hard drive, perhaps a DX9 graphics card (Microsoft has also supported a DX9 feature level so that you don't need 2010-level features just for the desktop).
Of course you'll end up with slow ass boring hard drive grinding. That's why people believe they need a damn SSD just to run an operating system. You can install Linux if you remember the 90s and even the Windows XP days when XP was working correctly and not loaded down with antivirus and crapware : fast enough OS with no need for an SSD.

you said MacOS doesn't require new hardware, well lol there a millions of Macs, Macbooks stuck to OSX 10.6 or 10.9 and so on.
Windows is great for hardware and software support. What's aggravating is Windows 10 takes all that out of the window by trying to be like Android and iOS i.e. dumbed down experience with online user accounts and stuff running behind your back that you can't turn off. Would still have been quite of okay if it was a tweaked Windows 8.1 where you can turn off the spyware, use Classic Shell and forget about the crap. But they did that crap, and even fired their QA department so that users are separated into grades of beta testers (Insider, Home, Pro, and then Pro was renamed to an expensive "Enterprise" you can't get and/or need to subscribe for)

Arguably, users refrain from buying a new PC so they don't get shackled to Windows 10, or they're willing to be treated like cattle as long as Google does it and they want to spend hundreds on Android phones etc. instead.

[caligula]

Same story with every Intel's generation, right? In the beginning something doesn't work well because it's brand new, so some issues is expected, then new generation is released, so those issues doesn't get fixed, because fixing those issues won't increase any sales except for low end chinese tablets.

The same is true for Android/ARM tablets and phones. Mobile devices have awful life time expectations. I agree Intel should and could better support the old platforms, but it's also true that tablet manufacturers have pretty much already abandoned Cherry Trail. If you want to buy one, you need to browse Aliexpress or Taobao. They've already stopped selling them in the developed world.

Maybe somebody from Intel could tell why both Bay and Cherry Trail failed so much? All the issues with suspend and power states. All the iGPU lockups. Some of the infrastructure just wasn't there. For example HDMI CEC and audio passthrough got mainlined only recently. Still I have to admit Intel has worked on these issues and at least kernel 4.12 seems pretty decent. Intel is still supporting them even if the higher level vendors have given up all support by now.

Even Dell 9250 with Skylake freeze from switch Gnome Terminal to fullscreen mode from time to time. Which generation is expected to work well? Sandy Bridge?

The desktops have longer lifetime expectancy so thjs is a different case and yes, it's disappointing. I don't know why Skylake has had so many issues. I've used iGPUs since HD 3000, the previous gens all were more stable. They DID have some issues, but not as many and severe.

[caligula]

And you keep insisting that people don't game but your wrong, they do! This is the whole fucking reason the PC gaming market collapsed a decade ago, and people still have this completely retarded mindstate even today.

There's no single PC market with a homogeneous audience. Corporations buy systems for normal office use or as travel companions. In that case, graphics perf might not be among top three priorities. The most important are weight, battery life, CPU performance, screen quality, max amount of memory, disk space, and SSD throughput. They make a significant portion of the sales. They also make periodic updates, which is important for the business.