Originally posted by Luke_Wolf
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Strawman: taking the extreme of an idea an going to argumentum ad absurdum in order to befuddle the point and knock down an idea that you try to portray the other individual as pushing
Aka exactly what you were doing.
Massage certainly belongs on the list, just because you are now acknowledging that it works (you weren't before) doesn't mean that it suddenly merges into allopathic medicine.
Herbalism isn't vague in the slightest it's the school of medicine that derives medical products (consumables (such as teas and pills), poultices, etc) from organic and mineral sources although primarily from plants. Also yes there are certainly poisons in nature and things that will kill you, belladonna being a perfect example however that said Thyme for instance has components that on their own would be bad for you but you suffer no ill effects when taken from the actual plant.
Actual scientific herbalism, when used properly, is not alternative medicine. It's simply medicine. The difference is, actual medicine is supported by evidence. How is this difficult for you?
I'm well aware of that thank you, the question was whether you were aware of that.
you don't say? let me highlight the particularly important part from this
now let me ask you this: which school just happens to have entire books related to the effects that plants have on things that have developed over time... oh right herbalism, which then goes on to inspire drugs like Asprin when they note the efficacy of certain plants on various problems. Asprin wasn't developed on it's own you know it was created as a result of the recognition of the efficacy of willow bark tea.
now let me ask you this: which school just happens to have entire books related to the effects that plants have on things that have developed over time... oh right herbalism, which then goes on to inspire drugs like Asprin when they note the efficacy of certain plants on various problems. Asprin wasn't developed on it's own you know it was created as a result of the recognition of the efficacy of willow bark tea.
Nowadays sure, but that is actually a very modern development, back during the war between states (aka the civil war) allopathic practitioners didn't bother cleaning their hands or their equipment it required homeopaths forcing the issue in order to get them to just do even that. While I can't vouch for the rest of homeopathy they did benefit us historically by doing that.
yes and it has nothing to do with the other schools of medicine and everything to do with culture. The spanish for instance are still eating bulls balls for this reason, and during the 1900s people surgically replacing their balls with that of an animal was actually a thing and apparently relatively common. The simple fact of the matter is people are trying to "enhance" themselves irregardless of there being any medical theory involved.
That's why you need science, biology, chemistry, pharmacology, neurochemistry, to separate the actually working cures from the quackery. Traditional herbal remedies may sometimes work, but many of them are mere placebos and some are plain harmful. You need science to separate out the ones that work from the ones that don't. The ones that do work go on to become actual medicine, while the ones that don't keep being sold as "alternate medicine" to gullible fools, because "who needs evidence, the doctors are just trying to take your money" (says the snake-oil salesman).
of course he wanted to be cured that's why he was taking treatment period, but you see I'm not arguing for homeopathy or miracle diets I've been very clear in what I support which is all rather soundly based.
Imperfect is an understatement at best, and it working best is a teniable statement at best as other schools are kind of lacking in the study department for effects on cancer, because studies are expensive and such schools aren't profitable for the drug companies who fund most of that work.
Just what part of medicine and science for that matter isn't trial and error in terms of development...
None of the modern pharmaceuticals just happen due to a chemist somewhere going "hmm, what happens if I add a methyl group here, let's try it".
There's a reason that medical sciences always advance whenever there's a war it has to do with the massive increase in wounded and dead thus allowing more trials a lot of which end up as failures, but then we randomly get stuff like the Sulfa drugs.
Actually that electrical field is what the concept is based upon, again whether it's ascribed characteristics are true or not are up in the air but if you want to be scientific you wouldn't dismiss such things out of hand but acknowledge that it is one theory on the matter regardless of whether you agree with it or not.
Okay lets spell it out for you since you're lacking the ability to get the point. The vitalitae concept when you remove the whole energy component of it basically amounts to supporting the body, reducing stress, and being non-invasive about treatment when necessary has a positive effect on the overall individual. Damaging the body, increased levels of stress, and invasive treatment has an overall negative effect on the individual.
"Invasive treatment" is a fallacy, a red herring. You ignore that treatment is invasive because it's necessary. For example, when your appendix bursts, you need invasive surgery to remove it. You don't heal it with "vital energies" or faith healing. But invasiveness of treatments is always assessed on basis of least necessary, eg. if something can be treated with a pill instead of injection, it's a preferred form of treatment.
Says the guy who claimed that there was no basis for herbalism and has now been forced to change his tune and acknowledge that herbalism does in fact work even if he is still holding back
Flat Earth hasn't been believed on record since at least the Pyramids, and the greeks with Socrates I believe it was, and both calculated the circumference of the world, further on that point there is no evidence to my knowledge to support the idea that any significant group of people actually thought the earth was flat.
There are STILL groups of people who seriously believe the earth is flat.
For more information, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth
Originally posted by Wikipedia
it's not academic it's fundamental because science holds no pretentions about anything, particularly not about being correct which is why it's so important that it's constantly checking itself.
And to do that checking you speak of, you need peer-reviewed, rigorous scientific studies. You don't do it by just ranting about how "western medicine is invasive we need more body thetans". No. You need evidence. Want to prove naturopathy works? Show the evidence. Show that the concepts are sane. Evidence or GTFO.
And this advancement and checking is how we know that homeopathy doesn't work. The basic concept is flawed and unsound. It's based on belief and superstition, not hard evidence. The same thing with "vital energies", "chakras" and "thetans". The scientists have disproven the hypothesis, the claims made weren't supported by evidence, so rational people stopped believing in it. Some are still in denial.
Not quite... For instance just because physics doesn't work on a subatomic level doesn't mean that physics is disproven it just means that there's an exception, and it could just be that at that moment in time the universe had a hiccup and things went haywire, again science doesn't hold any pretentions about anything. It just says what is likely and what is not.
No you see unlike you I don't have those pretentions of the skeptics philosophy. For me anything is possible even magic (although magic being real... not likely) it's simply a matter of what is more or less probable based upon the data that I have available to me, you know like a real scientist not one of those silly philosophers who thinks that science has any absolutes rather than possibilities that are more or less likely.
No you see unlike you I don't have those pretentions of the skeptics philosophy. For me anything is possible even magic (although magic being real... not likely) it's simply a matter of what is more or less probable based upon the data that I have available to me, you know like a real scientist not one of those silly philosophers who thinks that science has any absolutes rather than possibilities that are more or less likely.
The same way we already know lots of how things work. That thing about magic is telling. You think there "could be magic". But since the hypothesis of magic is not testable, it's not a valid hypothesis, therefore irrelevant from the scientific perspective.
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russel%27s_teapot
I would like you to look in a mirror
Sure not every possibility is equally probable but it does mean that every possibility is equally possible.
There's an equality on what can be and not on what is likely to be, and on quite the contrary you were declaring a negative for all across things that actually had evidence for them, by the rules of logic any single positive case defeats a for-all and I provided several even if you then proceeded to play them off and dismiss them. So no use trying to pass the buck back to me, it's now up to you to try to prove a negative since that's the base you started from. Good luck.
You're trying to move the goalposts, the point is that there's no evidence for homeopathy, naturopathy, traditional herbal medicines, acupuncture, aromatherapy, faith healing, etc. That you try to stick in things that actually work (eg. actual medicine that is based on plants or herbal remedies, modern evidence-based herbal medicines, physiotherapy) and conflate them with the others is just a cheap way of trying to ignore the fact that alternate medicine is not supported by evidence.
Also naturopathic medicine as a school can't come in a bottle as the nature of it is a holistic examination of your life and how you can work to support the body, and I didn't know that eating right, releasing stress and trying to be non-destructive towards your body is somehow such an oh so bad idea, I should totally eat mcdonalds every day, stress myself all the hell out and intentionally pound my body with harsh chemicals yeah! Seriously though even if you don't agree with the ideas you would at least agree that the three underlying principles are good ideas yes?
No. You can exercise and relieve stress without believing in quackery about "vital energies" or "body thetans" or "chakras". You don't need aromatherapy or needles in your ears to stay out of mcdonalds. That you again try to conflate them just shows either incredible intellectual dishonesty or massive stupidity from your part.
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