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Intel Mesa Gives Problems With KDE's KWin, Again

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  • kayosiii
    replied
    Like I said I think the best way would be to pass a flag when asking about advertised features that tells the driver to only say yes if the feature is fully implemented and stable. That way a client could ask for only features that are done and really implemented.

    Leave a comment:


  • bridgman
    replied
    Originally posted by mat69 View Post
    [1] I wonder if it is good communication to set flags specified in a standard to advertise features ,that are in fact not working right. And yeah I know of the unfortunate situation that some tools require OpenGL X.Y while actually onle few features are really required. I just think that the blame was not fairly distributed.
    This issue comes up every few months. The core problem here is that the KDE devs were writing new code which used OpenGL features that were just being implemented in the open drivers. Nothing wrong with that in principle but it requires fairly close communication between app and driver developers so everyone understands what should and should not work.

    Most of those issues are in the past now, but one part of the problem will remain more or less forever -- the fact that OpenGL 2.x came out after DX9 hardware was designed but doesn't quite match the DX9 requirements. As a consequence of this, there are multiple generations of cards which can run GL 2.x well enough that users want it enabled (ie want the features advertised) but which can not provide 100% support and never will.

    The choices are either to disable GL 2.x features completely (thereby costing users the ability to run a large number of interesting and useful apps) or enable the features and recognize that they are always going to be "implementation errors" when running on DX9 hardware because the hardware doesn't support everything that GL 2.x requires.

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  • smitty3268
    replied
    Just to be clear about what i think needs to happen:

    Martin needs to stop his stupid "i can't be bothered to test current Mesa code" argument.

    Mesa devs need to stop their stupid "i can't be bothered to test KDE" argument.

    Both sides need to stop their stupid "everytime something goes wrong start shouting about how much the other side sucks" behavior.

    These problems are going to continue until both sides get it together and actually give a **** about their users. Right now they both seem more interested in scoring points.

    Leave a comment:


  • smitty3268
    replied
    Originally posted by Nille View Post
    smitty3268 and the E-Mail sounds like "Do it like we/I want" from Martin Gr??lin. I bet this is the reason why he get this type answers.

    > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...il/006870.html
    I agree that certain stuff from Martin needs to change. But instead of taking the opportunity to discuss that with him the Mesa devs chose to flame him, thereby ensuring that nothing changes and we will run into the same problems again.

    Mesa devs are not solely to blame, but neither are they blameless. Currently both sides are acting like idiots, and when 1 makes at least an effort at conciliation it's disappointing when that effort isn't returned.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nille
    replied
    Originally posted by mat69 View Post
    Actually free drivers _started_ to advertise features as implemented while they weren't. Martin once pointed out that 4.4 et al. would also not work that well with the new drivers as those misadvertise features.

    Originally posted by mat69 View Post
    Only that KWin got most of the blame and even for bad communciation ... [1]
    Maybe because of
    Originally posted by Martin Gr??lin
    Please
    note that I am not subscribed to this mailing list, so please keep me in CC (I
    might not be able to reply this week at all)
    The most big changes like this are discussed on the Mailing list.

    They don't care about Mesa and they don't test there Stuff on the Free Drivers. Its Sounds like he/kwin test only on the Nvidia Blob.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nille
    replied
    smitty3268 and the E-Mail sounds like "Do it like we/I want" from Martin Gr??lin. I bet this is the reason why he get this type answers.

    > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...il/006870.html

    Leave a comment:


  • mat69
    replied
    Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
    With KDE 4.5, KWin made changes which broke things on Mesa drivers and were (rightly) criticised for not testing with open drivers. They said that they trusted the drivers about the functionality they advertised, but didn't implement.
    I haven't read the whole thread yet but as far as I can remember it wasn't that way.
    IIRC KWin did not change anything in 4.5 which caused problems. Actually free drivers _started_ to advertise features as implemented while they weren't. Martin once pointed out that 4.4 et al. would also not work that well with the new drivers as those misadvertise features. Only that KWin got most of the blame and even for bad communciation ... [1]

    [1] I wonder if it is good communication to set flags specified in a standard to advertise features ,that are in fact not working right. And yeah I know of the unfortunate situation that some tools require OpenGL X.Y while actually onle few features are really required. I just think that the blame was not fairly distributed.

    Leave a comment:


  • smitty3268
    replied
    Originally posted by energyman View Post
    wrong, they (intel devs) fucked up major way. You don't change something like that in a point release. You just don't.
    Yeah, there's absolutely NO REASON why this change needed to be done in a point release and as we can see a good reason not to do it.

    That said, it's been pointed out that the upcoming Fedora release will be running 7.11 which IS a major release, and I do think they have every right to change the strings there. So KDE would still need to be fixed, it just shouldn't need to happen for Natty.

    Leave a comment:


  • smitty3268
    replied
    So, in an effort to promote communication he posted to the mesa dev list

    The responses basically came back as:

    1. Your email is too long to read
    2. Quit whining
    3. We don't care if we break KDE
    4. If you're having so many problems with Mesa, maybe you should just disable all compositing on our drivers and only work with the proprietary drivers.

    So, yeah. We're going to keep seeing this kind of stuff every 12 months, most likely.

    I wish open source graphics could get better than this... Maybe next year.

    Leave a comment:


  • energyman
    replied
    Originally posted by marek View Post
    They didn't fuck up at all. The Intel devs only changed the renderer string. It's a valid change, a normal one, it may happen from time to time and apps shouldn't rely on it. On the other hand, detecting KMS/GEM/DRI2 via some string in OpenGL is clearly a hack. There are better ways of detecting those than some random string that happened to contain "GEM" by luck. (I am surprised too that someone parses that string.)

    Anyway, the fact the driver devs haven't tested it is, of course, their fault. But the real problem lies in the Kwin code, Martin has even admitted that with the code snippet in his blog post. It's pretty clear that hacks like that would cause breakage sooner or later.
    wrong, they (intel devs) fucked up major way. You don't change something like that in a point release. You just don't.

    Leave a comment:

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