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  • cybertraveler
    replied
    Rust is special. It quite uniquely, has a good chance of providing some competition for C & C++. Go isn't really competition because it's garbage collected.

    The fact that Rust is being developed to fulfil the very practical needs of Mozilla increases its chance at success.

    If Rust does turn out to be superior to C in many ways and can improve security I'd love to see it conservatively used in the kernel.

    Leave a comment:


  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by zboszor View Post
    Then we become robots. Humans learn from their own mistakes. It's an educational misdirection to take away the choice of mistakes. A mistake is often not a mistake but a new way of thinking and it opens up new areas for development. Taking away this choice leads to stagnation and decline.
    rust won't save your ass from logic mistakes, which are what programming is about (codifying logic for a machine to execute).

    It saves your ass from derps and inattention mistakes that are physiological and normal in any project because of human nature (i.e. you are not always 100% at peak mental performance when coding), see bug statistics.

    The same can be said about IDE's helping coders by suggesting function names, checking for spelling or syntax errors, and such. Forgetting to close a parenthesis isn't a mistake that teaches you anything nor taking it away is going to cause stagnation and decline.

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  • OneTimeShot
    replied
    Re: $LanguageOfTheMoment

    There is no doubt that C has issues, but there has never been an accepted replacement. Everyone dumps on Java. C# is Microsoft. C++ maybe if they ever stop adding stuff. Then there are all of those hip languages Ruby, PHP, Go, Ceylon, etc that basically are 10 a penny.

    Rust - who knows? We've seen loads of these languages come and go. My money is on Rust being dead in a couple of years...

    In any case, IMO the real issue is in the surrounding libraries. libc is really obsolete. Java libraries and .NET are pretty decent. That's where we should be concentrating attention.

    Leave a comment:


  • caligula
    replied
    Originally posted by tomtomme View Post

    not all mistakes are the same. there are indeed "dumb" mistakes you want to avoid from the get go especially if it could compromise the security / well being of others. Or would you like your surgeon to operate at the wrong end, because it was decided to remove the patient-checklist to enable more "educational mistakes" again?
    Mistakes are good for students and such while in education. Mistakes can be bad when you are working on serious stuff.
    At the same time, dynamic languages such as JavaScript are becoming more common everywhere. People hate compilers because they always complain about buggy code. Dynamic languages are better because you can spew millions of lines of code, even syntactically broken code. If the script interpreter picks then branch (if-then-else) instead of the else branch, the latter could even contain raw binary data without the parser noticing anything. The problems are revealed as late as possible, maybe in production. This saves a lot of money and developer time. Compilers (incremental in IDEs) catch problems maybe in less than a second after typing the code. This is constantly slowing down the developers. Many also disable syntax highlighting because it reveals syntax errors, e.g. XML without a matching closing tag. This early noticing of problems ruins the productivity.

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  • tomtomme
    replied
    Originally posted by zboszor View Post

    Then we become robots. Humans learn from their own mistakes. It's an educational misdirection to take away the choice of mistakes. A mistake is often not a mistake but a new way of thinking and it opens up new areas for development. Taking away this choice leads to stagnation and decline.
    not all mistakes are the same. there are indeed "dumb" mistakes you want to avoid from the get go especially if it could compromise the security / well being of others. Or would you like your surgeon to operate at the wrong end, because it was decided to remove the patient-checklist to enable more "educational mistakes" again?
    Mistakes are good for students and such while in education. Mistakes can be bad when you are working on serious stuff.

    Leave a comment:


  • zboszor
    replied
    Originally posted by boxie View Post
    Programmers are human. Humans make mistakes. If you remove the ability for the humans to make mistakes then you are immediately a step ahead.
    Then we become robots. Humans learn from their own mistakes. It's an educational misdirection to take away the choice of mistakes. A mistake is often not a mistake but a new way of thinking and it opens up new areas for development. Taking away this choice leads to stagnation and decline.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    I think the size savings are useful for embedded/mobile hardware - think phone/tablet, or Intel Joule devices for example. If this kind of selective support can be implemented for other drivers and parts of the kernel, the reduction in size can provide benefits such as reduction in boot/loading time, lesser space on disk and in memory etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

    C is fastest, rust is for people who are sleeping and should not program at all. C is safe when the programmer is not sleeping and doing null pointer assignments and buffer index overflows.

    Regards,
    Msc C/C++ software developer since 1991.
    .......nobody's perfect. Every single developer has made mistakes in the past, is making mistakes now and will continue to make mistakes in the future. That's just the nature of human beings. Reducing the possibility of making mistakes as much as possible, improves the quality of software considerably.

    Leave a comment:


  • boxie
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    C/C++ is a industry standard.
    So was IE6...

    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    Rust is not good, if it is it would be used widely.
    Nice logical fallacy there, C has had decades to get millions of software projects written / Rust not so much.

    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    All the best software that you use is written with C/C++, kernels, gaming engines, desktops, engineering software etc.
    define: all
    define: best

    The more correct statement here is "A lot of very big projects are written in C/C++"

    In short - you can find good software written in any (non toy) language and conversely you can find very bad examples of software written in all languages.

    Programmers are human. Humans make mistakes. If you remove the ability for the humans to make mistakes then you are immediately a step ahead.

    Leave a comment:


  • audir8
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

    C/C++ is a industry standard. Rust is not good, if it is it would be used widely. All the best software that you use is written with C/C++, kernels, gaming engines, desktops, engineering software etc.
    I find myself distinguishing more and more between C and C++, and not lumping them together. The kernel is C, so is Mesa/GLSL, innodb, postgres, redis, and memcache. I don't think it gets more high performance and lower latency than any one of those software projects. Rust is more comparable to C, and it's stated competition. Will Rust be a better C? It's still early, but I wouldn't rule it out. Go is farther ahead, and I don't think it's momentum is decreasing yet. As far as systems languages go..

    C++ has added a lot of features since 98. I'm not sure if it has as strong a niche as it used to thanks to newer languages, most of them running on some sort of VM. If you absolutely need the expressiveness and efficiency (ie. gaming), it's still the go to, but if you don't need the efficiency, you'd be better off with anything on the JVM. You'll still get similar speed and a lot of developer productivity. Java is used for distributed systems, HFT, and desktop/engineering software, and if you were starting a new project in any of those fields today, you would have legitimate choices for which language/framework to build on.

    I also don't think the people working on Rust at Mozilla or on other systems languages are "sleeping", or that the C/C++ are the only industry standards by any means.

    Leave a comment:

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