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  • The "Ubuntu 8.10, Fedora in general, fglrx" thread for people who are sick of whining

    First and foremost, I'm not crapping in all these "woe is me" threads, so those of you facing your self-generated problems, don't crap in this thread. Show some respect for opinions.

    Look, I'm going to be completely honest with you guys, but I'll try not to come off as a smug, pompous ass. I find this whole fglrx/X-Server 1.5/Kernel 2.6.uber situation laughable, especially having been through it myself back on Fedora 6 (IIRC) when the X.org dudes decided to revise their version numbering (Hey! That sounds familiar!) and broke the official nvidia driver for us. No, it wasn't nVidia's fault. Sure, I was hoping they'd fix it soon, but I didn't start a thread or two in every major forum bashing them for it, but plenty of other people did; Just search nvnews.net to see.

    Things happen, and if the incident was important, the fixes usually follow very quickly.

    That said, Ubuntu 8.10 is coming out in 13 days from writing and everyone is all in a hubbub over X-Server 1.5 support. The truth is, a lot of people are "still" "back" on Ubuntu 7.10 & Ubuntu 8.04 (like me) and their video cards should be working one way or the other. We're worried about all these regressions, though. Ubuntu 8.04 isn't going away anytime soon. 3 years is a very long time in "technology years." You know that. Enter you guys running developement releases. You're worried about the future of Linux, about getting support now, about the view [FOSS] people will hold on AMD if they don't get this support out pronto. The thing you guys need to realize is this, Linux (the platform) is an extremely fast-placed moving target, and they (AMD) still have a bunch of regressions and unimplemented (AMD/ATi) features to worry about. (Not to mention get all their chips working with this re-written driver)

    On the one hand, you'll see people calling AMD a waste of time, a poor choice, a disappointment, etc. In the opposite corner of the ring, you'll find those who don't update to the latest Kernel 2.6.uber, X.org version, etc and whose installs are relatively stable and working. Those are the people who generally enjoy using their computers (and OSes), not the ones who are infatuated with compiler flags, etc. In yet another light you have the people still on Windows or Mac who are looking to check Linux out. The reasons vary from one person to another, and that's a different topic, but one thing they will look for: Driver support. Either it's there or it isn't. Again, Ubuntu 8.04 is fairly nice and it's not going away for years. Read: It's dependable if the support exists.

    If you take a step back and look at what AMD is doing overall, you'll see a company that is hurting, but still cares enough about the little people to keep working on their driver, publish documentation for those who insist on an open-source-only install/driver (which I don't think I'll ever understand completely).

    This is the same attitude found with EPIC Games and Unreal Tournament 3. A long-time friend of mine (no names) didn't even know who EPIC Games was, but his first reaction to the name was, "The only thing EPIC is their EPIC failure." For years and years they've supplied Linux binaries for a lot of their big-name games when they didn't have to. They're not making much money off Linux gamers compared to Windows users, and like any company, their goal is to sell a product. So, they even offer the opportunity to the little guys, then it gets tossed back in their face, but they keep giving that opportunity. Who is the bigger man here?

    AMD doesn't have to support their desktop video cards on Linux to sustain a working business model. But they do anyway. And they release documentation on their hardware!

    I wish X Server 1.5 was supported too, but it takes more than a wish to make it happen, it takes a lot of resources. Monetary resources. Monetary resources earned from selling a product, not from giving it away.

    All I really want to ask is this: Please cut them some slack.
    Last edited by downhillgames; 10-17-2008, 07:29 PM. Reason: Missed an "o" in "too." oops.

  • #2
    I can't see your problem

    Catalyst 8.10 is the fastest Catalyst ever, I have a better 2D and 3D Performance - Compiz running better, too

    And the Ubuntu-Catalyst 8.10 supports X-Server 1.5 which is e.g. already in Arch Linux ,Testing repo (catalyst-8.11-0.1-i686)

    And keep in mind that AMD is nearly insolvent.

    Comment


    • #3
      I can understand you're point to a degree. But you could also make the argument that if they had tracked and provided support for Fedora then they would already be able to support Ubuntu.

      It would make a lot more sense (to me at least) to support a bleeding edge distro. That way by the time the other distros catch up, the support is already there, and some/most of the bugs shaken out by the distro that came before.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by janl View Post
        It would make a lot more sense (to me at least) to support a bleeding edge distro.
        Problem with that is that your often trying to debug 2 or more bleeding edge products at the same time that's why a stable base is preferred to bleeding edge. It would be like troubleshooting a computer with a no video symptom with out any "known good" parts to test against.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by deanjo View Post
          Problem with that is that your often trying to debug 2 or more bleeding edge products at the same time that's why a stable base is preferred to bleeding edge. It would be like troubleshooting a computer with a no video symptom with out any "known good" parts to test against.
          Besides their userbase, that's probably one of the biggest reasons Windows gets support so quickly. Have you ever installed an old Rage 128 card or somethin' on XP when your main one is giving you problems? The XP Rage 128 drivers released in 2001 (IIRC) still work as good as the day they were released, and I'm talking about on SP3 and everything, no "rolling back." I tried to get my Rage 128 working (with 3D) on Linux and it couldn't be done. I was told, "It's too old to hack on." Well, there weren't any updates needed to make it work on XP, it's just that Linux changes so much that the old driver couldn't function anymore.

          A stable development platform is definitely advantageous to a(n arguably) "bleeding-edge" development platform.
          Originally posted by thacrazze View Post
          I can't see your problem

          Catalyst 8.10 is the fastest Catalyst ever, I have a better 2D and 3D Performance - Compiz running better, too

          And the Ubuntu-Catalyst 8.10 supports X-Server 1.5 which is e.g. already in Arch Linux ,Testing repo (catalyst-8.11-0.1-i686)

          And keep in mind that AMD is nearly insolvent.
          That isn't 8.10 in the repos, that's a beta of 8.11. You're missing my point entirely, yes.

          Comment


          • #6
            Linux pace development too fast?

            I am amazed at the frantic pace at which Linux (kernel, OS desktops, applications) is changing. We deal with constant updates, new versions, new releases, so linux really looks like a messy construction site, only that it is never completed and also is a never ending story: new bugs are introduced because of precisely those changes in code, on top of older bugs.
            It looks indeed like a race against time. The efforts are also indeed amazingly awesome. However, I feel that this frantic pace is firing back to users. All problems related to updates so frequently lead to broken systems and of course, users become upset, frustrated!
            Look, we can compare this with Windows and Mccintosh models: They provide simple updates (security issues basically) from time to time, which DO NOT brake the system. Actually, ONE version stays for many years (example: Windows XP). However, with Linux, there is this crazy idea that if you dont upgrade to the nex version you are using obsolete software. Therefore, Windows XP and MacOs are then utterly obsolete? non-sense. Try to do updates or upgrades in linux and you will start having problems, like broken packages, loss of drivers' function, etc.Briefly: Problems all the time, instability issues; lack of proper support for new hardware. This is the price we have to pay for "life on the fast lane".
            To top it up, the interaction between companies and Linux is not good. Yes, more and more companies are supporting their harware in linux, but unfortunately, they consider us as marginal users.
            I propose to slow down in development. Stop those fancy projects that introduce bugs, conflicts, from draining resources. Concentrate in stability, focus on hardware support to make drivers that really do work. Look guys, that idea that Ubuntu should outperform macOS can ONLY succeed with OUTSTANDING hardware support, which is not just there, and not with fancy eye kandy and decorations! Lets realize this: if you like macOS, then use macOS! Why in the heck Ubuntu has to be like macOS? Hell, for one, I just want it to be a final product, rock solid and usable for years (like windows xp or macOS) and able to do everything I need at home and at work, and don't want to be bothered/forced about installing a f*cking new version every six months or so because some packages were spoiled during updates. It is a vicious circle that I hope one day shall be broken.
            Maxei DeVraie

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Maxei View Post
              I am amazed at the frantic pace at which Linux (kernel, OS desktops, applications) is changing. We deal with constant updates, new versions, new releases, so linux really looks like a messy construction site, only that it is never completed and also is a never ending story: new bugs are introduced because of precisely those changes in code, on top of older bugs.
              It looks indeed like a race against time. The efforts are also indeed amazingly awesome. However, I feel that this frantic pace is firing back to users. All problems related to updates so frequently lead to broken systems and of course, users become upset, frustrated!
              Look, we can compare this with Windows and Mccintosh models: They provide simple updates (security issues basically) from time to time, which DO NOT brake the system. Actually, ONE version stays for many years (example: Windows XP). However, with Linux, there is this crazy idea that if you dont upgrade to the nex version you are using obsolete software. Therefore, Windows XP and MacOs are then utterly obsolete? non-sense. Try to do updates or upgrades in linux and you will start having problems, like broken packages, loss of drivers' function, etc.Briefly: Problems all the time, instability issues; lack of proper support for new hardware. This is the price we have to pay for "life on the fast lane".
              To top it up, the interaction between companies and Linux is not good. Yes, more and more companies are supporting their harware in linux, but unfortunately, they consider us as marginal users.
              I propose to slow down in development. Stop those fancy projects that introduce bugs, conflicts, from draining resources. Concentrate in stability, focus on hardware support to make drivers that really do work. Look guys, that idea that Ubuntu should outperform macOS can ONLY succeed with OUTSTANDING hardware support, which is not just there, and not with fancy eye kandy and decorations! Lets realize this: if you like macOS, then use macOS! Why in the heck Ubuntu has to be like macOS? Hell, for one, I just want it to be a final product, rock solid and usable for years (like windows xp or macOS) and able to do everything I need at home and at work, and don't want to be bothered/forced about installing a f*cking new version every six months or so because some packages were spoiled during updates. It is a vicious circle that I hope one day shall be broken.
              Maxei DeVraie
              QFT. Looks like someone caught the subtle hint [Sarcasm]But this is of course the evil cooporations' faults. Not the community at large.[/Sarcasm]

              Was it the "still on Ubuntu 8.04" part that gave it away?

              Comment


              • #8
                I actually don't think it's too much of a hassle, actually what one must remember is that the fglrx driver included in Ubuntu 8.10 is early, and buggy Beta at best, given i'd classify the monthly release as beta. So that said, i don't think that it's that bad that the driver does not work right this minute, and i know it'll be much better next month, and most likely the repository will give you an automated update within a few days of the fglrx 8.11 driver release.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Unlike Microsoft, which stops distributing its old OS releases (so that they don't compete for sales with their current OS releases), nobody is stopping you from booting a circa 2001 Linux image onto your machine if you really want to test some old hardware.

                  The pace of development is fast, but you don't need to keep up with it if the system you have today is working the way you want. In most aspects, my machines work the way I want. My current laptop is on Ubuntu 8.10beta, but I've only owned it for a month or two and I needed to install something new in order to get a working driver for the wifi. My old laptop still works fine on the last OpenSUSE distro I installed on it 2+ years ago, and likewise for my desktop machine from 3+ years ago.

                  Don't blame your problems on the Linux development model. In my experience the Linux development pattern still solves more problems than it creates. The kernel changes because the hardware environment changes, and it takes a lot of effort to keep up. (And IMO it's only barely; slowing down the pace would make things even more unbearable if you're frequently buying new systems.) But if your hardware hasn't changed in 3 years and the system is running the way you want, there's no compelling reason to keep tweaking the software. You only need to update the software when you know that there's a problem in your current code, or there's a new feature that you want.

                  Once you make the decision that you want some new feature, you have to pay the price. New = change = instability.

                  And yes, AMD *does* have to release a decent driver for Linux. It doesn't have to release one with all the bells and whistles that the gaming community demands, but there's a large market of professional/HPC work running Linux on AMD hardware, and they would lose an important market if they ignored Linux completely.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by downhillgames View Post
                    That isn't 8.10 in the repos, that's a beta of 8.11. You're missing my point entirely, yes.
                    Nope the Version in Intrepid is the 8.10 with a Hotfix for xserver 1.5 and not the 8.11

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