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  • siggma
    started a topic Future of my support for ATI

    Future of my support for ATI

    I've had an X1650 for nearly a year now. I've watched update after update for windows XP and Vista. I've installed update after update for Ubuntu and basic Debian lenny. I've heard promises and more promises from ATI. I've heard there is an ATI representative reading here. Hopefully you hear this, and pass it on.

    For me It comes to this, support Linux or I'll never purchase another ATI or AMD product again.

    I think the lack of good working 3D support, including VIDEO PLAYBACK in Linux is a political move to do as much as possible to prevent Linux from flourishing more than it has, especially as a desktop operating system.

    It's no secret Microsoft is threatened by Linux from a marketing viewpoint but it makes no sense that a hardware manufacturer would drag their feet this much in providing full support for an obviously flourishing operating system like Linux. I have no doubt this is not a technical issue, it's a political issue and in not solving it you've tried to moved the issues with Microsoft to the desktop of those who want to get rid of their dependence on a single company for all their software needs. Watching this card perform in Vista compared to Ubuntu makes me ill...

    Windows is supposed to be an OPERATING system, not an EMPIRE system. It's now become an application restriction system. it's supposed to provide an environment to support those products I choose to purchase and install on MY COMPUTER HARDWARE, not limit my choices to ONLY MICROSOFT products or those products that have the "stamp of approval" from Bill Gates.

    So, ATI / AMD, by not FULLY supporting the fastest growing operating system in existence while at the same time providing outstanding support for Microsoft based products, I have to assume there is some kind of collusion between AMD and Microsoft and that means you are aware of the issues and that you've chosen to try to support the ONE SIZE FOR ALL approach to computing based on attempting to control what I do with the hardware I've purchased.

    What are you all going to do when hardware contains it's own software?
    Why do we even need to "install" a driver. Why can't the industry agree to create a common hardware video language and then embed the whole thing on a chip so we don't need software drivers at all. Why is Microsoft even involved in writing or installing code that supports a hardware video device? Why does Microsoft have anything at all to do with hardware drivers? It's sheer insanity, unless you think about the marketing implications of loosing "control" of the hardware industry.

    Seems the limiting factors in this industry are no longer technical restrictions but fear based, politically motivated, marketing driven, user manipulation and it's ME, the purchaser of the hardware that looses. And that bugs me.

    Eventually you'll have to make a choice. Hardware that is dependent on a specific operating system significantly limits the scope of it's use. At present Microsoft is the largest "application software distributor", and both XP and Vista are applications, not operating environments, but they won't be forever. The more they try to control what software I install and use, the less enticing their products become and the more their market share drops... How many times has Microsoft been sued for breach of contract or unfair business practices. Does anybody remember Netscape?

    Are they really the kind of company you want to be in league with?

    Think about it.
    -Tom
    Last edited by siggma; 07-30-2008, 03:23 PM. Reason: added a comma

  • legume
    replied
    Originally posted by siggma View Post
    I can't find a zip for the tear-free video patch. I see the commit log but I don't really know how to get the actual patch. Can one of you give me a hint?

    i just got the latest radeon video source and compiled it and I'm about to test it before I apply any patches.
    -Tom
    There is currently more work going on to get vsync for R500, so it may be worth waiting a bit.

    http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18542

    Leave a comment:


  • duby229
    replied
    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
    There has been a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem here. One thing that wasn't so obvious to us back in 2002/2003 was that major advances in the X framework were totally dependent on availability of decent open source drivers for a majority of GPU vendors, since any API-breaking changes to the framework couldn't even be tested unless the same developers could make co-ordinated changes to the drivers.

    This is obvious in hindsight, but what isn't ?
    You know what???

    Freakin Bravo man...

    I couldnt possibley have said it any better myself even if I had tried. And that really is the crux of it isnt it? A radeon 7000 works beautifully in linux. Its a wonderful experience. All of the features that card supports are also supported by X. Now that we finally have newer hardware with open source support with more features, those should be supported in due time as well.
    Last edited by duby229; 11-24-2008, 07:53 PM.

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  • siggma
    replied
    Almost usable

    Yea, I don't think so. I copied the diff++ and patch won't apply it.

    Code:
    [email protected]:~/xf86-video-ati$ sudo patch -p001 < ../tearfreepatch.txt 
    patching file src/atombios_crtc.c
    patch: **** malformed patch at line 6: OUTREG(AVIVO_D1MODE_VIEWPORT_SIZE + radeon_crtc->crtc_offset,
    Either copying it from the web messed up line endings or it's not valid for the current version.

    Thanks anyway.

    Update:

    For those who care the latest radeonhd works better now and is almost usable.
    Git compile instructions are here: http://www.digitalself.org/2008/06/1...ri-3d-support/

    Relevant xorg.conf for r560 (x1650) using HDMI->DMI adapter ->LG 19" panel below:

    Code:
    Section "Device"
        Identifier    "Configured Video Device"
        Driver "radeonhd"
    #    Option "AccelMethod" "EXA"
        Option "DRI" "true"
        Option "UseFastTLS" "2"
        Option "BackingStore" "on" 
        Option "MaxGARTSize" "512"
        Option "ColorTiling" "on"
        Option "EnablePageFlip" "on"
        Option "DisplayPriority" "HIGH" #BIOS or AUTO   
    EndSection
    NOTE: Page flipping makes a HUGE difference for me. I still see video artifacts but it's nowhere near as bad as it has been.
    Last edited by siggma; 11-24-2008, 07:49 PM. Reason: Added results for radeonhd

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  • bridgman
    replied
    I have asked Alex for advice on this, particularly re: whether the patch is likely to still work on the latest code (it was posted back in July I think). He is on vacation this week but might pop in anyways.

    Leave a comment:


  • siggma
    replied
    I can't find a zip for the tear-free video patch. I see the commit log but I don't really know how to get the actual patch. Can one of you give me a hint?

    i just got the latest radeon video source and compiled it and I'm about to test it before I apply any patches.
    -Tom

    Leave a comment:


  • bridgman
    replied
    There has been a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem here. One thing that wasn't so obvious to us back in 2002/2003 was that major advances in the X framework were totally dependent on availability of decent open source drivers for a majority of GPU vendors, since any API-breaking changes to the framework couldn't even be tested unless the same developers could make co-ordinated changes to the drivers.

    This is obvious in hindsight, but what isn't ?

    Now that we are actively supporting open source driver development for ATI graphics again the xorg developers have access to open source drivers for enough of the hardware installed base that it is now feasible to make "big scary changes" to the X/DRI framework and have those changes be available on most of the commonly used hardware.

    There has been a lot of real progress made by the xorg community over the last year. So far it has all been down in the foundation portion of the xorg/DRI framework (memory management, KMS, DRI2) with little or no visible benefit for users, but I think we are only a few months away from the point where developers can start to build on the last year's efforts and show some real user-visible progress.

    Anyways, that's my 2 cents...
    Last edited by bridgman; 11-24-2008, 06:47 PM.

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  • Kjella
    replied
    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
    The Windows video system includes support for all the things you are talking about below -- triple buffering, flow control for video through the compositor etc... -- all of those are being added to the Linxu/X stack over time but they are not there yet. Even syncing Xv playback to vblank is problematic and keeps getting yanked and/or rewritten in the open source driver stack.
    Here we are at the real source of the problem - it's not ATI but it's the parts that Microsoft write in the Windows market that suck on Linux. From what I've read, the reason the nVidia driver works is that it takes over most of what xorg is trying to do. With all due respect to the people that have tried fixing X through extensions, it's still a mess. Graphics cards shouldn't have to implement more than the lowest layer of modesetting / gallium3d shaders / video acceleration / dual+ screen, the rest is (or rather should be) common.

    The really sad thing is that after the xfree86/xorg breakup I thought things would be different. Or well I suppose they're better, but the whole X subsystem has almost as many delays and dropped out features as Vista. I just hope that it's really so extendable as some people tend to think, because there's sure a lot that needs fixing still. I sound a little glum but it is improvign, just not nearly as fast as I'd like.

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  • siggma
    replied
    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
    Your comment was "So, now I upgrade to a new x1650 (r560) card and vuala, no support for most of it's features under linux." I was asking which features you were talking about.
    Video playback.

    If we wanted to do that, why would we bother investing in Linux support at all ? Wouldn't it be easier to only support Windows and MacOS ?
    Then why is it do difficult to get this working?

    My primary machine is running Ubuntu 8.10 with the in-box open drivers on an X1950PRO (ie rv570), running Compiz with wobbly windows, rotating cube etc... No artifacts or problems that I can see. Haven't played any DVDs though, just video files including some high-def H.264 files (eg Big Buck Bunny) which all play very cleanly. I have a fairly recent quad-core CPU though, maybe that is helping.

    I'm currently running radeon rather than radeonhd because the radeon package on 8.10 works properly with 3D while the radeonhd package does not, but I'm hoping to get the latest radeonhd built and running later this week.
    I'm running the same. Tried compiling a git radeon two weeks ago. I also compiled the git radeonhd and it's really messed up. Menus drop down but don't redraw background, xv won't work, gl is unusably slow, gl2 flashes wildly etc. So far the best driver I've seen is the straight radeon. I don't care that much about fancy rotating desktops but when I do enable them I see horrible tearing in ALL video output. My definition of "tearing" is when the update is interrupted by a second update. I'm running a 2 Ghz Core Duo that runs flawlessly under Vista. In fact I can't get it to tear no matter what I do.

    Yesterday I was fiddling with mediamonkey in Vista to see what framerates I could get. With mutisampling set to 6X using desktop mode I get 52 frames average at 1440x900 on my digital panel. I doubt I have a cpu issue so unless there is something specific to my Gigabyte motherboard, it's got to be the driver.

    The card is an X1650 PCIE 256DDR2 from Visiontek. CPU is an Intel 2140 Core Duo O-clocked a bit (from 200 - 240). Ram is a 1gig pair running Dual Layer at 799Mhz (I think). I doubt this box is too slow to reder the pages. I can play 5 640x videos at once and still see no frame drops so...


    The patch blocks all rendering activity until the next vblank. If your primary use of the system is for video playback this isn't a problem, but it does slow down 3d and some 2d drawing. Alex was pretty clear that this would probably not make it in as a general purpose solution, just as something which would help users whose primary application was video playback.
    So, how do I install it. I'm familiar with compiling and I can do a git get but I can't find the correct url to fetch it. Can you post the url, I'd be happy to give it a try.
    -Tom

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  • Melcar
    replied
    @ siggma:

    Just so you know, most of the complaints you pose already have been discussed to death on previous occasions, and bridgman & Co. have already thoroughly explained the situation. Repeating the same points over and over again comes out a bit like whining.

    Leave a comment:

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