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  • #41
    Originally posted by wodencafe View Post

    Such a dick... There is this little concept called Cross Platform, and it actually matters to some people here.

    All sorts of people browse, and post on, Phoronix, you shouldn't attack them for not toeing the Linux line.

    A Linux forum should be welcoming to all sorts of users, not pushing them away because "They use Windows and we're not about that".
    Ha, I've been called worse for less cause, fair enough. I've already apologized to him as it appears I misunderstood his intent. My issue was with the statement "it's for the Linux crowd, so I don't want it" (paraphrased) which comes off as a trollish thing to say in a Linux forum. I called that out, and if I'm a "dick" for that, then so be it.

    And for the record I never said "They use Windows and we're not about that". If you have to make up something to call me out for, you have no argument in the first place. I use Windows, OS X, Haiku, Slackware, OpenBSD, and Debian in my house, and FreeBSD and CentOS on production servers. I'm about as OS agnostic as they come, mate.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
      Once again, it's not a mass market product that can spread the millions of dollars spent in research and development over hundreds of thousands if not millions of devices.
      Sure, it not going to be mass market, awful price would prevent it. OTOH, Pi hit more than millions of units, chinese boards sold in 10 000s to 100 000s range and there're two gazillions of manufacturers already. Quite a handsome competition. Not to mention it made them damn attractive to all kinds of developers who were quick to join the fun. You see, $100+ dev boards were there like forever. But never caused buzz, and selling few mere boards to few embedded devs isn't very profitable thing. It can do as some part of business, but it's nowhere near to the swing cheap boards fun got these days.

      Somehow, it turned out this stuff could be surprisingly popular, if you manage to get price right and make it interesting for enthusiasts. Furthermore, it turned out it is viable idea to change embedded development processes: most hardcore of devs would design module or board and produce it, and others are going to assemble their final systems using these boards and modules, doing system integration and relatively easy parts of system design. Making high-density multi-layer high-speed PCB is a challenge. Retries wouild slow you down, and starting batch isn't free either, and retrying complicated PCBs is quite costly. OTOH making low-tech 2-layered "daughterboard" or just some custom add-ons & cabling isn't a major challenge. Result? System implementer cuts down development costs and times. Those who design module are getting some profit. Everyone is happy. That's how it works today.

      At least some of those companies who were initially only doing devboards already got idea there is huge demand at lower prices, and at least some of these were quick to join the fun.

      This is simply the way it's been in the semiconductor industry since the 1970's. Sure, the RaspberryPi may not cost anywhere near this much, but it's never been anywhere near current and aimed at big production numbers, which it reached with one of the two initial retailers taking in over 100.000 orders on day one alone, since the get-go.
      In fact, Pi were not even first to start it. They were most successful in marketing, and good at dumping prices. So they just made it obvious there is surprisingly huge demand for this class of devices if you manage to get your price right. But they are just a mere part of larger process, which has been ongoing even without them.

      Try to remember that we're still talking about a SoC with a CPU+GPU that consists of millions and millions of transistors.
      Try to get simple idea: I'm one who takes similar boards and modules and implements various fancy things using 'em. So, feel free to talk like Captain Obvious, etc .

      Modern hardware development even for mobile chips is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
      Hardly my fault. Those who manage to overcome hardships are earning money. That's how it works. Yes, it could be hard.

      The BAE RAD750 that was used on the Curiosity rover among others cost roughly $200.000 per board.
      And that's why there're only few such things exist in the world. Radiation hardened designs are special things, which could need serious deviation from mainstream CMOS processes and custom approach. Humans aren't exactly radiation hardened on their own, so they do not need radiation hardened devices most of time either. So there is no chance to distribute R&D costs on large number of devices. But general purpose CPU module could be very demanded thing. If you can get its price right. And somehow, I doubt nvidia is only going to manufacture like 5000 ICs, so I do not get how the hell they came to such an awful price. Neither it rad-hardened, nor it even extended temp range, its just some mere general purpose module at insane price.

      Sure, you can produce boards cheaply if you just buy in an in-production chip that's already looking to make back it's development expenses. However when you've designed the SoC the board is built around yourself and are not going to sell the damn things to the mass market, you can't be expected to start giving away the boards at production costs when you have salaries to pay and proprietary tools and IP to pay license fees for.
      Hardly my fault, etc. At the end of day I have no use for $300 general purpose modules.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by kaidenshi View Post

        Ha, I've been called worse for less cause, fair enough. I've already apologized to him as it appears I misunderstood his intent. My issue was with the statement "it's for the Linux crowd, so I don't want it" (paraphrased) which comes off as a trollish thing to say in a Linux forum. I called that out, and if I'm a "dick" for that, then so be it.
        I think what he was speculating there was that nvidia was going to try to get into some kind of Linux market some how (either game machines or PCs or laptops or whatever). I.e., this thing isn't oriented towards Windows at all, which makes him "think twice" about nvidia's historically primary focus (Windows PCs). Hence, "What do they have on the mind? Is it some sort of experiment?"

        I don't necessarily agree with the sentiments, but that's how I understood them.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by caligula View Post
          None of the other popular boards seem to use Broadcom SoC. It's just the Pi crowd.
          how many millions of units those popular boards have sold?

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          • #45
            Originally posted by pipe13 View Post
            Seriously. Way to welcome a potential new member to the Linux community.
            Originally posted by dimko View Post
            No offence, you do realise I am senior member here, right?
            nicely fits here:
            Originally posted by johnc View Post
            I think you misunderstood what he was saying.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by SystemCrasher View Post
              Hardly my fault, etc. At the end of day I have no use for $300 general purpose modules.
              You and other (semi-) hobbyists aren't even the target market.
              If you had actually done due diligence, you'd know that the Jetson TX1 is aimed at professionals developing components for Drones, Autonomous Robotic Systems, Advanced Driver Assistance Systems and Mobile Medical Imaging.

              Those fields are structured quite differently from the regular Joe Schmo looking for a cheap 1080p/4k playing device. Frankly, they can afford to pay more.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by unixfan2001 View Post

                You and other (semi-) hobbyists aren't even the target market.
                Yeah, nvidia has been "good" in targeting markets for a while. Like they did in first Tegra, targeting windows mobile, without any Linux support at all... and you see, first Tegra failed to take off. Because those super-duper professionals from Microsoft proven to be really bad when it comes to innovations and emerging markets.

                And you see, there was one finnish student, who decided to write OS. Small and simple, non-portable, etc. And these days I run it on like 4 different architectures. And it what allows me to appear here. Keeping alive my router, my phone, my TV, my laptop, my desktop and... I probably missed something.

                While in no way I'm so great and so good in something, I think future would have plenty room for what I can do. Internet of Thins is coming, etc. And since systems capable of running Linux are getting small, cheap and power efficient, I can foresee whole new era of smart things. And it is huge market, being of order millions to billions units. And there is some room for someone like me. So I can have both fun and profit, and that's how I like it.

                If you had actually done due diligence, you'd know that the Jetson TX1 is aimed at professionals developing components for Drones, Autonomous Robotic Systems, Advanced Driver Assistance Systems and Mobile Medical Imaging.
                Yeah, feel free to use windows, it developed by professionals, etc. And I'll be better using Linux from finnish student. Because it beats these pros to the dust. And btw, Torvalds told Nvidia is worst company ever. Somehow, I do not remember, does Windows supports these ICs? Or are these super-duper-pros going to use OS from mere finnish student, who coded it as hobby project? XD

                Those fields are structured quite differently from the regular Joe Schmo looking for a cheap 1080p/4k playing device. Frankly, they can afford to pay more.
                But somehow, best margins are coming from mass markets. And $300 module would have major issues to get sold in millions range, etc. Because it is way too much and really screws up adoption. And btw, I fail to see any reasonable community around Nvidia ICs, except nvidia itself. Maybe I'm looking poorly, or something, but it seems there're not exactly best in this regard, and 100% reliance on company which has been directly called "worst company ever" by project manager of target OS... raises some interesting questions XD.
                Last edited by SystemCrasher; 16 November 2015, 02:39 AM.

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                • #48
                  SystemCrasher

                  As usual, I haven't got the slightest clue what you're on about.

                  1. Why do you feel the need to mention Windows? Wherever was it said that this board used Windows?
                  2. That the mass market, supposedly, offers the best margins doesn't mean that everything needs to be a mass market product. Focusing on the mass market generally stifles progress. You'd be hard pressed to turn a space shuttle into a mass market product.
                  3. Contrary to popular belief, Linus Torvalds is a human being. He has opinions that aren't necessarily right. People shouldn't take his every word for granted.
                  And since this isn't Apple and Linus can't fire anyone, I could personally give less of a crap of what he's thinking.

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