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AMD Ryzen 7000 Series Make For Compelling Budget Servers, Leading Performance & Value Over Xeon E

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Sonadow View Post

    And yet sometimes, even after ripping out the bundled 4GB memory and 5400rpm HDD and replacing it with your own 8 or 16GB memory and a cheapass SSD, it still ends up cheaper than a DIY build.

    The variations in prices between OEM prebuilts and aftermarket DIY builds can sometimes be staggering.
    Yup.

    In this case, it ended up about equal to a DIY of the same spec. Getting at the RAM was easy, but getting the HDD out was quite fiddly.

    I'm pretty sure the mobo/PSU are custom, so no easy replacement if one or other goes pop, which may be something else to consider.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Paradigm Shifter View Post
      Prebuilt prices here can be crazy, and often do not offer a lot of flexibility. I still like DIY-ing my systems, but know what you mean. Sometimes a prebuilt is more cost effective.

      That said, my experiences of Acer have been very poor, and the Lenovo systems were were provided with some new equipment are... less than adequate, but I would suggest that that is the equipment supplier trying to save fractions of a dollar here and there (who in their right mind specs up a system with a 64-bit OS, 4GB of RAM and a 5400RPM HDD in the 2020s?)
      Consumer product lines are always going to be... problematic. The business and server product lines are the only way you'll get solid well tested devices that doesn't have scripted support being outsourced to the cheapest bidder. It's been a number of years since I had to talk to Lenovo's ThinkServer tech support, but they had a person on site the next business day and between the two of us had the problem sorted in an hour. That was no extra cost to me other than the basic business class warranty. Dell business product lines are pretty much the same. Dell consumer you have to pay extra so you might as well go ahead and just pay for the extra cost for an Optiplex, PowerEdge, etc. over the pretty crappy Inspiron line.

      Also, as far as the options are concerned... businesses have different priorities than consumers. Cost for Suzy Secretary's desktop is always going to be the biggest concern over performance as businesses are usually going to be buying them in bulk. When you save $100 or more on each system, provision them with your model specific drive image which has a customized versioning load out, maybe adding a little extra RAM on the cheap (believe it or not, a secretarial office PC doesn't quite need 8GB+ if all its running is Word and/or an intranet browser or remote terminal to a central mainframe), and deploying them en masse, the cost savings is worth it over the slight loss in productivity from having to boot a PC from a spinning HDD every so often.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by stormcrow View Post
        Consumer product lines are always going to be... problematic. The business and server product lines are the only way you'll get solid well tested devices that doesn't have scripted support being outsourced to the cheapest bidder. It's been a number of years since I had to talk to Lenovo's ThinkServer tech support, but they had a person on site the next business day and between the two of us had the problem sorted in an hour. That was no extra cost to me other than the basic business class warranty. Dell business product lines are pretty much the same. Dell consumer you have to pay extra so you might as well go ahead and just pay for the extra cost for an Optiplex, PowerEdge, etc. over the pretty crappy Inspiron line.
        I've not found support for the expensive business oriented systems to much better than the consumer stuff, if I'm honest. It's still knee-jerk-buck-passing by default. There is also automatic resistance to any suggestion from the user reporting the issue as to what the cause might be - even (or especially) when it turns out to be an accurate diagnosis!

        Originally posted by stormcrow View Post
        Also, as far as the options are concerned... businesses have different priorities than consumers. Cost for Suzy Secretary's desktop is always going to be the biggest concern over performance as businesses are usually going to be buying them in bulk. When you save $100 or more on each system, provision them with your model specific drive image which has a customized versioning load out, maybe adding a little extra RAM on the cheap (believe it or not, a secretarial office PC doesn't quite need 8GB+ if all its running is Word and/or an intranet browser or remote terminal to a central mainframe), and deploying them en masse, the cost savings is worth it over the slight loss in productivity from having to boot a PC from a spinning HDD every so often.
        True.

        A secretary doesn't need a crazy system. Word isn't as light as it used to be, but it's still not terrible.

        The example I was referring to, however, was a large scientific supplier providing a Lenovo turdbox to act as a gateway/remote access system for their engineers - as such, it was expected to run a large number of programs, none of which are/were exactly light on the memory usage, on (single channel!) 4GB of RAM. With their standard suite of stuff they installed so their engineers can try to fix the big, expensive equipment remotely, it was swapping constantly. It took me about a week before I lost patience and updated it to 16GB in dual channel. It now sits at about 7GB of RAM used (although we do have a fancy environmental monitoring controller option added) when idle. Even just dropping in a second 4GB DIMM would have made it much more usable and would have cost all of, what, $5? $10?

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        • #24
          All this article is really saying is that all Zen 4 and most Zen 3 CPUs are better than Rocket Lake, which is hardly news. That's because the Xeon E-2300 CPUs are just rebadged Rocket Lake desktop processors, with a couple more features enabled.

          It's too bad Intel hasn't been able to deliver a "Xeon E-2400" series successor to these Rocket Lake processors for delivering an affordable, ECC-friendly server option.
          Oh, but they did something even better, Michael! They took a page from Ryzen's book and enabled ECC support on many regular Gen 12 and Gen 13 desktop processors!


          Here's a list of all the Gen 12 & 13 CPU models that support ECC memory:


          The only catch is that you have to use them on a W680 board. That's not as bad as it sounds, because "Xeon E" processors also were restricted to certain motherboard chipsets, if you wanted to use features like ECC memory. So, the chipset restriction is nothing new, at least as far as Intel is concerned.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by pegasus View Post
            What is the availability of ECC UDIMMs?
            They've been available since about Dec. 2022 and downright plentiful since about Feb. 2023. The worst part is that they were limited to DDR5-4800, for a long time. There are now some DDR5-5600 ECC UDIMM modules available, but only from a couple brands. Even after Gen 14 (Raptor Refresh) launches, I would guess the DDR5-6400 ECC UDIMMs won't be available until early next year.

            Originally posted by pegasus View Post
            In my past experience these have always been a major pain point with such "low end" servers. Very poor choice and those you could get caused your mobo to refuse to boot. Hope this improves with DDR5 gen.
            Major brands like Kingston and Crucial have compatibility checkers, on their website. You can use it to check which of their DIMMs are compatible with the motherboard, and I think they even offer a money-back guarantee if they say it's compatible and it turns out not to be.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Paradigm Shifter View Post

              Yup.

              In this case, it ended up about equal to a DIY of the same spec. Getting at the RAM was easy, but getting the HDD out was quite fiddly.

              I'm pretty sure the mobo/PSU are custom, so no easy replacement if one or other goes pop, which may be something else to consider.
              Custom parts are also sometimes required in the DIY world. They are not exclusive to OEM prebuilts.

              My sister's ITX board required a custom HSF that the board vendor sells specifically for that particular board. If you try to put a stock Intel HSF or a any standard aftermarket cooler, it'll never ever git. Even the bracket for an AIO pump won't fit unless you are willing to cut out a quarter of the bracket.

              Makes it no different from an OEM custom part in both purpose and practice.

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              • #27
                Okay, so with the performance of Ryzen 7000 series CPUs taken into account, I currently have a Ryzen 3 2200G CPU with 48GB of RAM. I currently run a couple of virtual machines in Proxmox:
                • VyOS virtual machine for router and firewall
                • Pi-Hole
                • VM running Samba 4 AD DC (Active Directory Domain Controller)
                • Jump Server (for connecting to other networks via SSH tunneling, such as accessing my wireless access point via HTTP in the "Network Devices"/"Management" network; only running when needed)
                • Home Assistant for home automation
                • Multiservers (one VM running multiple Apache virtual hosts per IP address spanning multiple network interfaces)
                  • Nextcloud
                  • Web server for hosting my development website (my custom website uses a flat-file structure for dynamically-generating web pages and does not use a database)
                  • Ansible
                  • Certificate management server (via easy-rsa)
                  • File/media server (just using SCP for file transfers and Kodi for streaming movies over an NFS network)
                • Windows 10 VM for administering Samba 4 AD DC; it's off most of the time until it's needed.
                • A couple of VMs used for getting certified on RHCSA. These VMs are behind another router running VyOS.
                My load average for all 4 CPU cores is 0.06 (1 minute), 0.08 (5 minutes), and 0.09 (last 15 minutes). My RAM usage is around 17%. I am the only one accessing my server.

                Could the Ryzen 7000 series processors be of any benefit to me? Can I get less of an idle power consumption with new AMD 7000 series CPU?
                Last edited by GraysonPeddie; 06 September 2023, 08:12 AM.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by pegasus View Post
                  What is the availability of ECC UDIMMs? In my past experience these have always been a major pain point with such "low end" servers. Very poor choice and those you could get caused your mobo to refuse to boot. Hope this improves with DDR5 gen.
                  ECC UDIMMs for the DDR4 platforms is both plentiful and cheap-ish from my perspective (Kingston, Samsung and Crucial all provide decent ECC UDIMMS kits with good support).

                  I have 6 AM4 motherboards of which 5 of them run with ECC UDIMMs from all three brands (usually the exact same type of sticks in each system). I've never had any RAM-related issues with them tbqh. I also have two older AM3+ motherboards with DDR3 ECC UDIMMs and have never had issues with them either.

                  Don't know what the situation is with DDR5 at this stage, but once the platform matures, I have a hard time thinking it would be any different than what it is like in the mature AM4 ecosystem.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Sonadow View Post

                    In fact, if you were to buy a brand new workstation or server from OEMs instead of DIY-ing it, it sometimes even ends up cheaper than the DIY build seeing that you get on-site warranty for the entire package, as well as the option to use certain processors that may not be available off-the-shelf. Especially if you live in an area where aftermarket server boards and server components like ECC memory are rarer than diamonds.

                    I stopped DIY-ing full systems years ago when I did the math. And now I only purchase prebuilds from Acer and Lenovo.
                    i would take it one step further, I would seriously consider not building my own server or even buying one from a vendor.

                    I was recently offered a job building Linux servers for a data-center and during the interview process, it was explained to me that clients could order any custom built server they wanted, the data-center would install any OS the client wanted, Windows, Linux, BSD and the client got root access to the server.

                    The operation was huge, they had their own dedicated diesel powered backup generator and when they said the client could order anything they wanted, they meant it, they showed me one system they built for a client that had an i7 and 2 Nvidia Tesla cards.

                    In all honesty, for many workloads, you are better off using the services of a company like this than building your own server or buying one from a vendor,

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by GraysonPeddie View Post
                      Okay, so with the performance of Ryzen 7000 series CPUs taken into account, I currently have a Ryzen 3 2200G CPU with 48GB of RAM. I currently run a couple of virtual machines in Proxmox:
                      • VyOS virtual machine for router and firewall
                      • Pi-Hole
                      • VM running Samba 4 AD DC (Active Directory Domain Controller)
                      • Jump Server (for connecting to other networks via SSH tunneling, such as accessing my wireless access point via HTTP in the "Network Devices"/"Management" network; only running when needed)
                      • Home Assistant for home automation
                      • Multiservers (one VM running multiple Apache virtual hosts per IP address spanning multiple network interfaces)
                        • Nextcloud
                        • Web server for hosting my development website (my custom website uses a flat-file structure for dynamically-generating web pages and does not use a database)
                        • Ansible
                        • Certificate management server (via easy-rsa)
                        • File/media server (just using SCP for file transfers and Kodi for streaming movies over an NFS network)
                      • Windows 10 VM for administering Samba 4 AD DC; it's off most of the time until it's needed.
                      • A couple of VMs used for getting certified on RHCSA. These VMs are behind another router running VyOS.
                      My load average for all 4 CPU cores is 0.06 (1 minute), 0.08 (5 minutes), and 0.09 (last 15 minutes). My RAM usage is around 17%. I am the only one accessing my server.

                      Could the Ryzen 7000 series processors be of any benefit to me? Can I get less of an idle power consumption with new AMD 7000 series CPU?
                      I would not change a thing, you have a nice setup, based on the stats you cited it's very efficient and I think the only thing you would get by trying to "upgrade" would be spending money and time and aggravation.

                      I am a firm believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", it seems you are nowhere near to max utilization, so I say stick with what you have.

                      Comment

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