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  • Originally posted by mitchellrenouf View Post
    I will admit I was wrong about the iGPU and only that.

    why so fast in giving in ? you can say the intel iGPU is faster and the AMD one is slow because it has only 2CU ...

    anyway you are a joke to be honest.


    Originally posted by mitchellrenouf View Post
    You clearly don't understand how complex performance actually is and how insecure AMD processors are.
    AMD is insecure ? my threadripper cpu/mainboard from 2017 did get BIOS/UEFI security fix update in 2023...
    ASRock Super Alloy; Supports AMD TR4 Socket Ryzen Threadripper Series CPUs; IR Digital PWM, 11 Power Phase & Dr. MOS; Supports Quad Channel DDR4 3600+(OC) & ECC UDIMM Memory; 4 PCIe 3.0 x16, 1 PCIe 2.0 x1; NVIDIA 4-Way SLI™, AMD 4-Way CrossFireX™; 7.1 CH HD Audio (Realtek ALC1220 Audio Codec), Supports DTS Connect; 8 SATA3, 3 Ultra M.2 (PCIe Gen3 x4 & SATA3); 2 USB 3.1 Gen2 10Gb/s (1 Type-A + 1 Type-C), 12 USB 3.1 Gen1 (4 Front, 8 Rear); 1 U.2 Connector; Dual Intel Gigabit LAN; Intel 802.11ac WiFi; ASRock RGB LED; BIOS Flashback; Hyper BCLK Engine III

    "
    4.01
    [Beta]
    2023/5/5 5.34MB Instant Flash Update AGESA to SummitPI-SP3r2 1.1.0.7
    ​"
    now tell me how insecure my AMD CPU are... please do it.

    Originally posted by mitchellrenouf View Post
    Ryzen is basically a marketing gimmick where they just put two processors together and threw cache at it until they could even compete after the disaster of FX.
    A typical gaming CPU a ryzen 7800X3D does not have "Put two Processors together" and the 7800X3D is faster than a intel 13900X3D.

    but then back in time of the FSB Front side bus don't you remember at the time AMD did native dualcore cpus intel did just put 2 cpu dies together connected via the front side bus.. remember ? it was always a big bottleneck.

    Disaster of FX... i did have a AMD FX8350 and for vulkan and directX12 it was a nice performing cpu.

    it was only a bad design for outdated APIs like OpenGL and DirectX9/10/11

    also you said you like the GHZ and the FX8350 could do 8ghz...

    Originally posted by mitchellrenouf View Post

    AMD Epyc is actually better but still less secure if you care about using your computer online. You are basically using a processor without a disable execution bit just to defend AMD.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control-flow_integrity
    your control flow integrity argument about " Intel Control-flow Enforcement Technology"

    is pointless because of this out of your wikipedia article:

    " Bypass techniques


    There are several generic techniques for bypassing CFG:
    • Set the destination to code located in a non-CFG module loaded in the same process.[23][25]
    • Find an indirect call that was not protected by CFG (either CALL or JMP).[23][25][26]
    • Use a function call with a different number of arguments than the call is designed for, causing a stack misalignment, and code execution after the function returns (patched in Windows 10).[27]
    • Use a function call with the same number of arguments, but one of pointers passed is treated as an object and writes to a pointer-based offset, allowing overwriting a return address.[28]
    • Overwrite the function call used by CFG to validate the address (patched in March 2015)[26]
    • Set the CFG bitmap to all 1's, allowing all indirect function calls[26]
    • Use a controlled-write primitive to overwrite an address on the stack (since the stack is not protected by CFG) [26]
    ​"

    also according to this article:


    AMD also has Control-flow Enforcement Technology (CET)


    "AMD mobile processor Ryzen 5000 brings CET protection against ROP attacks

    The Control-flow Enforcement Technology (CET) is intended to make malware attacks with Return-Oriented Programming (ROP) more difficult.

    AMD Ryzen 5000U/H with Zen 3 and Control-flow Enforcement Technology (CET)

    In order to circumvent protection mechanisms, some malicious programs rely on Return Oriented Programming (ROP) or Jump Oriented Programming (JOP). Some modern processors, such as the AMD mobile processors of the Ryzen 5000U and 5000H series with Zen 3 technology, are said to make such attacks more difficult with a "shadow stack".

    Intel had already published the so-called Control-flow Enforcement Technology (CET) as a ROP/JOP antidote in 2016, but it can only be used in the latest eleventh-generation "Tiger Lake" Core i processors. AMD also uses the term CET in the current AMD64 Architecture Programmer's Manual Volume 2: System Programming (PDF file), which explains the implementation. Apparently, AMD has so far only built CET into the systems-on-chip (SoCs) with Zen 3, i.e. not into the AM4 versions of the Ryzen 5000.

    Microsoft wants to use the CET functions of x86 processors with a future update of Windows 10, but so far there is only a preview version of Windows 10 with shadow stack (SHSTK) support. Intel has developed a CET patch for the Linux kernel. Apple has been building the ARM counterpart to CET called Pointer Authentication Code (PAC) into its own processors since the A12.

    CPU cores from ARM itself dominate PAC from the upcoming Cortex-A78C, which is also aimed at Windows notebooks. Upcoming processors are expected to have additional features that make attacks more difficult, including memory tagging​​​"

    as you can see the mobile AMD Ryzen 5000U/H with Zen 3 already have Control-flow Enforcement Technology
    and also the Ryzen7000 do have the same.

    yes my old threadripper from1000/2000 generation does not have it.

    intel had it in 2016 and amd had it in 2021 means intel was faster to get this feature in hardware.

    but it can also be implemented by the compiler and Link time optimisation LTO error checking virtual tables..

    "LLVM/Clang provides a "CFI" option that works in the forward edge by checking for errors in virtual tables and type casts. It depends on link-time optimization (LTO) to know what functions are supposed to be called in normal cases.[14] There is a separate "shadow call stack" scheme that defends on the backward edge by checking for call stack modifications, available only for aarch64.[15]
    Google has shipped Android with the Linux kernel compiled by Clang with link-time optimization (LTO) and CFI since 2018.[16] SCS is available for Linux kernel as an option, including on Android.[17]
    "
    Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

    Comment


    • Originally posted by qarium View Post

      no it is low because it is the fasted cpu for gaming. and the 13900K consumes 146watt for similar performance.
      this means the FPS per Watt is high. and no one cared if the apple M2 only consumes 40watt if the FPS per Watt is lower and the total performance is also lower.

      before the 7800X3D emerged the people did buy a intel 13900KS just to make sure they have the fasted FPS possible in their games and the 150+watt consumtion was irrelevent to them.
      If you are trying to throw electricity at a task, the M2 is probably not for you, although if the leaks are accurate, a M3 variant should come out later this year that will outperform the 13900KS and 7950X3D across the board.

      You are rather fixated on the 40W number. That is AC power draw for an entire system, such that comparing it to power draw for a CPU alone is comparing apples and oranges. If you are looking at the CPU cores alone in the machine that was recorded at that power draw, they are probably drawing somewhere around 10W to 15W.

      Originally posted by qarium View Post
      show me your benchmarks with total FPS and FPS per watt or I and any other gamer does not care.
      53watt is not high my threadripper does ~240watt on Gaming...
      less power consumtion is irrelevant for gamers to be honest there is maybe a different for "mobile gamers" but thats another story.
      You are the one who said that they could do things to reduce power usage. They already did by making the Zen 3+.

      Originally posted by qarium View Post
      and again you come up with zen3+ non X3D cpu benchmarks i told you this already no one cares because gamers don't buy these cpus. they buy the X3D cpus because they have the best gaming performance and the best power consumtion in this field.

      there is maybe a big gap outside of gaming but for gaming AMD right now has the best solution.

      right now AMD does not offer this best solution to "Mobile Gaming"

      but if we speak about mobile gaming the market buy the valve steam deck with amd apu right now.

      lets say apple team up with valve and the next steam deck is based on apple silicon then yes this would be interesting.

      but right now who does buy a apple m2 laptop to do mobile gaming ? just be honest very little people do this.
      The creator of PCGamingWiki buys Apple equipment to play games:

      https://www.youtube.com/@Andytizer

      There is a fair number of people on Reddit who do too:



      If you go by the Steam hardware survey, the population of people playing games on MacOS is bigger than the population of people playing games on Linux, which includes the Steam Deck. The majority of that is on Apple silicon.

      In any case, performance in games is just one aspect of hardware design. Apple has a very well balanced design that impresses me far more than energy hogs from AMD and Intel. If you force AMD or Intel hardware to operate within the confines of the same power envelope, Apple's hardware will outperform it.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ryao View Post
        If you are trying to throw electricity at a task, the M2 is probably not for you

        as long as you are not a "Mobile Gamer" people really do not care thats why they do not buy a M2...

        and for mobile gamers they honestly tend to buy the valve steam deck with AMD soc instead of an apple soc...

        Originally posted by ryao View Post
        although if the leaks are accurate, a M3 variant should come out later this year that will outperform the 13900KS and 7950X3D across the board.
        you know what i really believe this. also because the M3 will have AV1 decode and endcode i really think M3 will be great.

        but as always it is apple... they can destroy even a great product with a price to high.

        Originally posted by ryao View Post
        You are rather fixated on the 40W number. That is AC power draw for an entire system, such that comparing it to power draw for a CPU alone is comparing apples and oranges. If you are looking at the CPU cores alone in the machine that was recorded at that power draw, they are probably drawing somewhere around 10W to 15W.
        the only company who maybe should care about this is valve they could build a steam deck with a apple soc if they want to.

        Originally posted by ryao View Post
        You are the one who said that they could do things to reduce power usage. They already did by making the Zen 3+.
        The creator of PCGamingWiki buys Apple equipment to play games:
        https://www.youtube.com/@Andytizer
        one single person does not count as a statistic honestly.

        Originally posted by ryao View Post
        There is a fair number of people on Reddit who do too:

        If you go by the Steam hardware survey, the population of people playing games on MacOS is bigger than the population of people playing games on Linux, which includes the Steam Deck. The majority of that is on Apple silicon.
        the hardware on the steam hardware survey is mostly outdated you see this in every metric like ghz number or core count or graphic cards they use 8 year old graphic cards and older. this means this is really not the case: "The majority of that is on Apple silicon."

        "the population of people playing games on MacOS is bigger than the population of people playing games on Linux"

        this is true but this was never the topic the absolute majority is on x86 even the apple hardware is mostly the old x86 stuff.

        also if you compare the games who run on apple devices compared to the games run on the steam deck then it is clear that linux on the steam deck run much more games than the apple steam clind. this alone would make anyone look stupid to buy apple hardware for that task.

        Originally posted by ryao View Post
        In any case, performance in games is just one aspect of hardware design. Apple has a very well balanced design that impresses me far more than energy hogs from AMD and Intel. If you force AMD or Intel hardware to operate within the confines of the same power envelope, Apple's hardware will outperform it.
        well outside of gaming (not mobile gaming) the apple M2 is great. but right now i would not buy it because no ASICs for AV1 decode and encode... even a cheap rockchip rk3588s does have AV1 decode and encode...

        but i believe apple m3 will have AV1 decode and encode and yes of course 4ghz design this will give intel the rest.

        AMD will surrive this longer because the people who need 86 compatibility will and they do it also now buy AMD..

        but intel is death... intel right now makes no sense for gaming ~150watt and amd only 54 watt means if you buy intel you pay double in the moment you buy the hardware and in the moment you get the electric energy bill.


        Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

        Comment


        • Originally posted by qarium View Post


          the hardware on the steam hardware survey is mostly outdated you see this in every metric like ghz number or core count or graphic cards they use 8 year old graphic cards and older. this means this is really not the case: "The majority of that is on Apple silicon."
          The steam hardware survey says that 56.04% of MacOS users have VirtualApple CPUs. What do you think that means?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by qarium View Post

            why so fast in giving in ? you can say the intel iGPU is faster and the AMD one is slow because it has only 2CU ...

            anyway you are a joke to be honest.




            AMD is insecure ? my threadripper cpu/mainboard from 2017 did get BIOS/UEFI security fix update in 2023...
            ASRock Super Alloy; Supports AMD TR4 Socket Ryzen Threadripper Series CPUs; IR Digital PWM, 11 Power Phase & Dr. MOS; Supports Quad Channel DDR4 3600+(OC) & ECC UDIMM Memory; 4 PCIe 3.0 x16, 1 PCIe 2.0 x1; NVIDIA 4-Way SLI™, AMD 4-Way CrossFireX™; 7.1 CH HD Audio (Realtek ALC1220 Audio Codec), Supports DTS Connect; 8 SATA3, 3 Ultra M.2 (PCIe Gen3 x4 & SATA3); 2 USB 3.1 Gen2 10Gb/s (1 Type-A + 1 Type-C), 12 USB 3.1 Gen1 (4 Front, 8 Rear); 1 U.2 Connector; Dual Intel Gigabit LAN; Intel 802.11ac WiFi; ASRock RGB LED; BIOS Flashback; Hyper BCLK Engine III

            "
            4.01
            [Beta]
            2023/5/5 5.34MB Instant Flash Update AGESA to SummitPI-SP3r2 1.1.0.7
            ​"
            now tell me how insecure my AMD CPU are... please do it.



            A typical gaming CPU a ryzen 7800X3D does not have "Put two Processors together" and the 7800X3D is faster than a intel 13900X3D.

            but then back in time of the FSB Front side bus don't you remember at the time AMD did native dualcore cpus intel did just put 2 cpu dies together connected via the front side bus.. remember ? it was always a big bottleneck.

            Disaster of FX... i did have a AMD FX8350 and for vulkan and directX12 it was a nice performing cpu.

            it was only a bad design for outdated APIs like OpenGL and DirectX9/10/11

            also you said you like the GHZ and the FX8350 could do 8ghz...



            your control flow integrity argument about " Intel Control-flow Enforcement Technology"

            is pointless because of this out of your wikipedia article:

            " Bypass techniques


            There are several generic techniques for bypassing CFG:
            • Set the destination to code located in a non-CFG module loaded in the same process.[23][25]
            • Find an indirect call that was not protected by CFG (either CALL or JMP).[23][25][26]
            • Use a function call with a different number of arguments than the call is designed for, causing a stack misalignment, and code execution after the function returns (patched in Windows 10).[27]
            • Use a function call with the same number of arguments, but one of pointers passed is treated as an object and writes to a pointer-based offset, allowing overwriting a return address.[28]
            • Overwrite the function call used by CFG to validate the address (patched in March 2015)[26]
            • Set the CFG bitmap to all 1's, allowing all indirect function calls[26]
            • Use a controlled-write primitive to overwrite an address on the stack (since the stack is not protected by CFG) [26]
            ​"

            also according to this article:


            AMD also has Control-flow Enforcement Technology (CET)


            "AMD mobile processor Ryzen 5000 brings CET protection against ROP attacks

            The Control-flow Enforcement Technology (CET) is intended to make malware attacks with Return-Oriented Programming (ROP) more difficult.

            AMD Ryzen 5000U/H with Zen 3 and Control-flow Enforcement Technology (CET)

            In order to circumvent protection mechanisms, some malicious programs rely on Return Oriented Programming (ROP) or Jump Oriented Programming (JOP). Some modern processors, such as the AMD mobile processors of the Ryzen 5000U and 5000H series with Zen 3 technology, are said to make such attacks more difficult with a "shadow stack".

            Intel had already published the so-called Control-flow Enforcement Technology (CET) as a ROP/JOP antidote in 2016, but it can only be used in the latest eleventh-generation "Tiger Lake" Core i processors. AMD also uses the term CET in the current AMD64 Architecture Programmer's Manual Volume 2: System Programming (PDF file), which explains the implementation. Apparently, AMD has so far only built CET into the systems-on-chip (SoCs) with Zen 3, i.e. not into the AM4 versions of the Ryzen 5000.

            Microsoft wants to use the CET functions of x86 processors with a future update of Windows 10, but so far there is only a preview version of Windows 10 with shadow stack (SHSTK) support. Intel has developed a CET patch for the Linux kernel. Apple has been building the ARM counterpart to CET called Pointer Authentication Code (PAC) into its own processors since the A12.

            CPU cores from ARM itself dominate PAC from the upcoming Cortex-A78C, which is also aimed at Windows notebooks. Upcoming processors are expected to have additional features that make attacks more difficult, including memory tagging​​​"

            as you can see the mobile AMD Ryzen 5000U/H with Zen 3 already have Control-flow Enforcement Technology
            and also the Ryzen7000 do have the same.

            yes my old threadripper from1000/2000 generation does not have it.

            intel had it in 2016 and amd had it in 2021 means intel was faster to get this feature in hardware.

            but it can also be implemented by the compiler and Link time optimisation LTO error checking virtual tables..

            "LLVM/Clang provides a "CFI" option that works in the forward edge by checking for errors in virtual tables and type casts. It depends on link-time optimization (LTO) to know what functions are supposed to be called in normal cases.[14] There is a separate "shadow call stack" scheme that defends on the backward edge by checking for call stack modifications, available only for aarch64.[15]
            Google has shipped Android with the Linux kernel compiled by Clang with link-time optimization (LTO) and CFI since 2018.[16] SCS is available for Linux kernel as an option, including on Android.[17]
            "
            CET_SS instructions does not equal Intel CET. I could be mistaken but not likely but not even Zen 5 will be on par with Intel CET. Those CFG flaws only affect windows and on non-intel processors.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ryao View Post
              The steam hardware survey says that 56.04% of MacOS users have VirtualApple CPUs. What do you think that means?
              did not see this. looks like on other projects these virtual apple cpus also pop up:


              "VirtualApple
              56.04%
              +1.11%
              GenuineIntel
              43.92%
              -1.11%​"


              yes right this is really surprising to me. but it only shows to me that apple users are hit hard by obsolescence/planet obsolescence.
              also on the steam deck means linux more games run than on macos this alone shows to me that these people are not rational people.
              you litterally buy apple hardware and run macos to be cripled down and play less games compared to linux...

              also it looks to me like these intel-apple products where overpriced and by this the sales where limited and the apple m1/m2 products look much better in price maybe this helped to sale more hardware and by this effect outgun the intel-apple devices in the statistic.

              Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

              Comment


              • Originally posted by qarium View Post

                did not see this. looks like on other projects these virtual apple cpus also pop up:


                "VirtualApple
                56.04%
                +1.11%
                GenuineIntel
                43.92%
                -1.11%​"


                yes right this is really surprising to me. but it only shows to me that apple users are hit hard by obsolescence/planet obsolescence.
                also on the steam deck means linux more games run than on macos this alone shows to me that these people are not rational people.
                you litterally buy apple hardware and run macos to be cripled down and play less games compared to linux...

                also it looks to me like these intel-apple products where overpriced and by this the sales where limited and the apple m1/m2 products look much better in price maybe this helped to sale more hardware and by this effect outgun the intel-apple devices in the statistic.
                You can keep using the Intel hardware since Apple still supports a fair amount of it. However, it is not that great in comparison to Apple silicon for most things, so it is not surprising people are moving to Apple silicon. Apple keeps removing reasons to stay on Intel hardware. They recently released a Windows emulator based on Wine similar to proton for running games on MacOS and people are having a field day running games through it, despite it needing a developer preview of MacOS and Apple claiming it is for developers only.
                Last edited by ryao; 09 June 2023, 07:51 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ryao View Post
                  You can keep using the Intel hardware since Apple still supports a fair amount of it. However, it is not that great in comparison to Apple silicon for most things, so it is not surprising people are moving to Apple silicon. Apple keeps removing reasons to stay on Intel hardware. They recently released a Windows emulator based on Wine similar to proton for running games on MacOS and people are having a field day running games through it, despite it needing a developer preview of MacOS and Apple claiming it is for developers only.
                  not that great is what i mean with obsolescence... to me it did look like all the years with intel apple hardware that the intel hardware apple did sell was overpriced ... and the apple m1/m3 is priced competitively.
                  with that in mind it is no wonder why these people immigrate faster to the new hardware than the rest of the x86 market.

                  also apple looks like beeding more in the mobile device market and on steam the x86 people did have desktop and because of battery time and so one they tend to buy new hardware more often compared to the x86 desktop market. for example my computer is 6 years old and of course still fast enough but these mobile apple devices after 2-3 years are already game over.

                  "Apple keeps removing reasons to stay on Intel hardware."

                  thats really very good because the monopole of intel was always fraudulent and forced the people in expensive and bad solutions.

                  even if i do not buy apple hardware i can admit that this is still a good thing.

                  "They recently released a Windows emulator based on Wine similar to proton for running games on MacOS and people are having a field day running games through it, despite it needing a developer preview of MacOS and Apple claiming it is for developers only."

                  thats good but if i watch protonDB linux beats macos in games compatibility...

                  i really do not unterstand why apple does not official support linux on their hardware.

                  my only apple product i used was our family computer macintosh performa 5200 with 75mhz from 1995 and the fact that all the Dos and windows games did not run on this computer did really make me hate this computer
                  but it looks like today apple is ready to defeat this stigma ..

                  microsoft is really a evil company to be very honest.
                  Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by qarium View Post


                    thats good but if i watch protonDB linux beats macos in games compatibility...
                    With the emulator, most of what works with Proton will work on MacOS since the source code is mostly the same.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mitchellrenouf View Post
                      CET_SS instructions does not equal Intel CET. I could be mistaken but not likely but not even Zen 5 will be on par with Intel CET. Those CFG flaws only affect windows and on non-intel processors.
                      don't you read the wikipedia page about this ? you can implement it as a compiler feature with link time optimisation

                      also there are Bypass techniques ...

                      also as you can read the article i did quite ARM apple and ARM cpus in generall also implemented CET...

                      also whats the point is this your argument why i need to buy a intel cpu ?
                      Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

                      Comment

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