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Linux Looks To Retire Itanium/IA64 Support

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  • ssokolow
    replied
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    I never played that, or pretty much any game since about that time, but the idea sounded very intriguing. In my younger years, I'm sure I'd have played it.
    It's a great concept... just underwhelming execution.

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  • coder
    replied
    Originally posted by ssokolow View Post
    Dungeon Siege being so boring despite being everything I'd wanted for so long, visually,
    I never played that, or pretty much any game since about that time, but the idea sounded very intriguing. In my younger years, I'm sure I'd have played it.

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  • coder
    replied
    Originally posted by ssokolow View Post
    (Among other things, the DOSBox wiki specifically says that the CPU, FPU, and I/O emulation aren't calibrated to run at specific speeds relative to each other, so you can't set them all to perfectly match a PC XT simultaneously.)
    I don't expect that's an issue for any but the very oldest software (the PC XT reference being key). Since the late 80's games and such have had to rely on the realtime clock, rather than hard-coded timing assumptions, because a big speed difference existed even between the 8088 and the 80286. Once the 386 started becoming mainstream, not to mention the 486, anything hard-coded to run on old 8088's would've already gotten broken.

    Originally posted by ssokolow View Post
    FPGA cores are gaining popularity because cycle-accurate emulation on CPUs is on the order of "needs 3GHz to emulate a 33MHz CPU". (From my rough memories of what the bsnes/higan SNES emulator requires for cycle-accurate emulation.)
    Fair point about console emulation. I do believe such issues should've mostly disappeared by the PS3 era, if not before.

    IMO, cycle-accurate simulation of a scalar, non-pipelined core like the NES and I think even SNES had doesn't seem that difficult. You basically know the cost of each instruction, which lets you model the CPU's clock. You can add delays as-needed, to keep that clock running at the correct rate relative to the host's realtime.

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  • ssokolow
    replied
    Originally posted by Ironmask View Post

    I'm pretty similar. I loved XP, enjoyed the Luna theme and especially liked the Zune theme, but I read Free as in Freedom and got some zeal from it and switched to Linux. Happily used it for about 6 years, then got fed up with how much of a mess it was. I'm on Windows now, but I'd like to switch back again now that a lot of issues I had with the Linux ecosystem have been resolved since then. Like you, it helps that I find entertainment in pretty much everything besides games.
    Funny thing that. I run the Zune theme on the WinXP PC in my retro-hobby corner (KVMed together with a P133 that dual-boots DOS/Win311 and Win98SE and a recently acquired Power Mac G4 that runs MacOS 9) and, if Zune had been offered at launch, it might have made the difference in my opinion of XP... though I'd probably still have faulted it for wasting so much space.

    (Back in the KDE 3/GNOME 2 days, my GTK apps would run a hacked theme called Clearlooks Compact and, recently, I whipped up a userstyle to collapse away all that unappealing whitespace in Wikipedia's new theme. I've never been a fan of excess padding or oversized elements in non-touch layouts.)

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  • Ironmask
    replied
    Originally posted by ssokolow View Post

    At least he wasn't the stubborn teenager I was, who saw Luna as such a personal affront that he stayed on Win98SE for years after Windows XP's release without even looking to see if some sort of classic theme existed.

    (In the end, I wound up switching to WinXP + Litestep before the combination of Litestep's bugs and Dungeon Siege being so boring despite being everything I'd wanted for so long, visually, led me to quit Windows and PC gaming cold-turkey and I've been daily-driving Linux ever since... it helped that it coincided with me discovering and becoming addicted to anime, manga, and fanfiction.)​
    I'm pretty similar. I loved XP, enjoyed the Luna theme and especially liked the Zune theme, but I read Free as in Freedom and got some zeal from it and switched to Linux. Happily used it for about 6 years, then got fed up with how much of a mess it was. I'm on Windows now, but I'd like to switch back again now that a lot of issues I had with the Linux ecosystem have been resolved since then. Like you, it helps that I find entertainment in pretty much everything besides games.

    Leave a comment:


  • ssokolow
    replied
    Originally posted by Ironmask View Post

    You decided to completely switch your entire operating system before just checking if the classic theme existed?
    At least he wasn't the stubborn teenager I was, who saw Luna as such a personal affront that he stayed on Win98SE for years after Windows XP's release without even looking to see if some sort of classic theme existed.

    (In the end, I wound up switching to WinXP + Litestep before the combination of Litestep's bugs and Dungeon Siege being so boring despite being everything I'd wanted for so long, visually, led me to quit Windows and PC gaming cold-turkey and I've been daily-driving Linux ever since... it helped that it coincided with me discovering and becoming addicted to anime, manga, and fanfiction.)​

    Leave a comment:


  • ssokolow
    replied
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    For a simulation like that (as opposed to real-time control applications), you simply need to tweak the emulator so that it advances the apparent realtime at the same rate as the execution time of the emulator. I'd be surprised if popular emulators didn't already have such an option.
    I'm skeptical that the fix is as simple as your armchair diagnosis would suggest, and I was just using it as an example anyway.

    (Among other things, the DOSBox wiki specifically says that the CPU, FPU, and I/O emulation aren't calibrated to run at specific speeds relative to each other, so you can't set them all to perfectly match a PC XT simultaneously.)

    More generally, FPGA cores are gaining popularity because cycle-accurate emulation on CPUs is on the order of "needs 3GHz to emulate a 33MHz CPU". (From my rough memories of what the bsnes/higan SNES emulator requires for cycle-accurate emulation.)
    Last edited by ssokolow; 16 February 2023, 07:17 PM.

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  • torsionbar28
    replied
    Originally posted by kylew77 View Post
    I wonder how much difference there is between Alpha and Itanium
    Not even remotely similar.

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  • kylew77
    replied
    Kind of a sad day. HP-UX will be the last Unix on Itanium. FreeBSD dropped support after the 10 series and while NetBSD has been working on port no current version of NetBSD runs on Itanium. With Linux broken, HP-UX will be the last Unix for this architecture. I wonder how much difference there is between Alpha and Itanium because OpenBSD has a port to DEC's Alpha, maybe they could port to Itanium? Probably the biggest obstacle is affording hardware for it. I know back when FreeBSD supported the architecture it was a one man project.

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  • torsionbar28
    replied
    Originally posted by Ironmask View Post
    My guess is they kept making them under some contractual reasons or partnership deals. In fact, while I don't have any sources, that sounds very familiar to me.
    I'm sure there some corporate and government computers still running Itanium somewhere who probably do need upgrade/replacement parts. But one would think Intel would just tell them to stuff it, especially because I'm sure the number of remaining customers is in the double digits. But that's the enterprise world, everything gets supported for 50 years and everyone stops using it after 20.​
    Yes, that reason is HP-UX. Long time HP-UX engineer here, we started on PA-RISC servers ~23 years ago, and upgraded to Itanium around 2007. It wasn't so much that we wanted Itanium. It's that our applications ran on HP-UX. Just like if you want to run Windows, you need an x86 machine. If you want HP-UX, you're buying Itanium. HP-UX is very entrenched in some vertical markets. Pharmaceuticals, for example, and some areas of government.

    Kittson was originally slated to be a nice upgrade, but years ago they knee-capped it, eliminating all innovation, and Kittson was a 100 Mhz clock increase and that's it. Basically the only reason they even released Kittson was because they promised HPE a new SKU way back when. So Kittson ended up being a "check the box" exercise on a ship that everyone knew was sinking. One nifty thing about Itanium was that it used EFI firmware. So we had EFI starting in early 2000's, where x86 peecee's didn't get it until years later.

    I was at DEC/Compaq in the late 1990's, and Compaq did the same thing to Alpha. Cancelled the EV8, and then knee-capped the EV7, calling it "EV7z". Dunno what the z stood for, but in practice it meant nothing more than fulfilling contractual obligations. 7z was a 150 Mhz clock increase over EV7 and that it. This is likely where they got the idea for crippling Kittson. It still grates on me the name Compaq came up with for that program. It was called Project RetainTrust. As in "trust me, keep buying these, we won't kill it off". And then they killed it off, which they were planning to do all along. Even so, I know folks that are still running AlphaServers today running critical workloads. No more official support from the vendor of course, but there are 3rd party outfits out there that stock spares and sell maintenance/service agreements to keep this stuff alive. I'm sure Itanium will be likewise still be running somewhere in 20 years.
    Last edited by torsionbar28; 16 February 2023, 05:04 PM.

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