AMD Announces Ryzen 7000 Series "Zen 4" Desktop CPUs - Linux Benchmarks To Come

[NM64]

The goal with Dragon Range may be a simple no-chiplet design with the intent of aiming for sub 55W power consumption.

A low-ish power CPU with RDNA3 is gonna be a strong sell I feel

I think you might be mixing up "Dragon Range" with "Phoenix":
https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryze...specifications

[Mahboi]

I think you might be mixing up "Dragon Range" with "Phoenix":
https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryze...specifications

I just might be, apologies about that. Still, I think the offer is solid as a mountain. Laptops always suffered from the simple physical limitations of power and fan capability. The company that starts seriously bringing the hammer on that suffering may just bring down the good old desktop. Sadly, it will probably mean a whole new era of problems with locked-in OEMs and serious age issues, but it will sell nonetheless.

I'm not particularly obsessed with minimalism, but I just observe that the amount of processing power has now exceeded a lot of our needs (in CPU space, GPU is another story). If we can start working towards a form of standardisation of capacity and lower power draw instead, we might just reach a standard that might satisfy most if not all of our basic computing needs for...well, ever. Not happening within 5 or even 10 years, but getting to a lower power draw and be satisfied with a lack of big power growth may be the first step.

[Anux]

I imagine that the vast difference in SOC topology between server/desktop and mobile has a lot to do with it - anything like Pluton would not be part of the compute die(s) (PSP, which handles TPM, is currently part of the I/O die), and mobile does not use chiplets at this time (AMD's upcoming Zen4 "Dragon Range" is rumored to basically just be the two-chiplet desktop repackaged for laptops though).

Pluton will most likely also be in the I/O die, it doesn't make sense to have it in the compute die because you only need one (Threadripper with 4 Plutons?). For possible monolithic dies it will be on there like it is on Ryzen 6000.

One thing in particular is that there's rumors from Moore's Law is Dead that Zen3 and Zen4 is basically designed so that, if AMD wanted to, they could pair Zen3's I/O die with Zen4 compute die(s) on AM4 or pair Zen4's I/O die with Zen3 compute die(s) on AM5, and obvious Zen3 non-plus does not support Pluton.

Tom is just playing around with ideas he doesn't know everything and does say so. Just because he thinks it's possible doesn't mean it will be done. I'm watching most of his stuff tho because he's almost always right if he says he knows for sure.

On the subject of I/O dies, it's worth noting that the server I/O die is different from the desktop I/O die despite the compute dies being identical.

That still doesn't say anything about Pluton. If they want to have Win Server on it they will have Pluton there and they probably will. It's easier to make it switchable then to build different CPUs for Linux.

"Just"... except that Microsoft mandates that Microsoft requires the 3rd Party Certificate to be disabled by default if you ship Windows pre-installed on a device with Pluton.

> Disabled by default
What do you read into that? Maybe some devices (Surface?) will have no off switch, but surely not all.

You're doing the very thing I already stated that too many armchair experts are doing - proclaiming definitive statements when we have no definitive proof.

I'm just extending logically what is done already.

If you meant all CPUs period, then we can already say that's false since there have been several desktop CPUs launched after Ryzen 6000 (e.g. the 5800X3D) that lack Pluton. If you meant CPU architecture, then that goes back to what I said above in that Pluton is not something that would be part of the actual compute die(s) and therefore we have a divergent architecture between server/desktop and mobile.

Maybe I wrote "that wants to run Windows 11" with a reason? Surely a Playstation won't have it.

PS: 5800X3D is an unaltered 5800 with cache on top

[NM64]

Oct. 2022 UPDATE: Welp, if Anandtech's Ryzen 7950X review is to be believed, then desktop Zen4 / Ryzen 7000 does indeed have Pluton:

• https://www.anandtech.com/show/17585...the-high-end/6

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ORIGINAL POST

I'm just extending logically what is done already.

My issue with that logic is that Pluton such little sense in the context of the Linux-dominated server world, and server is where AMD is making big bucks right now. Using a Microsoft security solution on a Linux server is just... like... what? Where's the logic there?

And because AMD's desktop offering and server offerings are tied to the hip via the use of identical compute dies, this is where it would just be making more work for themselves to offer Pluton in chiplet architectures because it'd still have to interface with those compute dies used on server as well, and server definitely takes priority in AMD's book (one could argue that Zen as a whole is a server-focused architecture that was basically down-ported to desktop and mobile).

PS: 5800X3D is an unaltered 5800 with cache on top

It's not unaltered; the CCD is actually upside down compared to the 5800X non-3D.

[qarium]

Last time I checked the 6900XT traded blows with 3090 maybe 3% behind on average at 4K. And that is with 50W less, wouldn't exactly call this loosing.

and let me ask was this with or without DLSS2.x ?

what you say is maybe true and still a loss on people who dont care about powerconsumsion and want the maximum performance.

also the 50w less power consumsion goes away as soon as you activate DLSS2.x...

of course AMD has FSR1.0 and FSR2.0 but most games who support technology like this only support DLss2.x--.-

[Anux]

My issue with that logic is that Pluton such little sense in the context of the Linux-dominated server world, and server is where AMD is making big bucks right now. Using a Microsoft security solution on a Linux server is just... like... what? Where's the logic there?

As said its just TPM at its core, either one can just use the TPM standard and ignore the Pluton extentions or there will be a switch to expose a standard tpm. (just guessing)

All features that got anounced about Pluton untill now are already possible with standard TPM. It remains to be seen what special extras it will add if it's not all marketing bullshit.

And because AMD's desktop offering and server offerings are tied to the hip via the use of identical compute dies, this is where it would just be making more work for themselves to offer Pluton in chiplet architectures because it'd still have to interface with those compute dies used on server as well

Zen 4 compute dies are the exact same from notebook to server, if you really believe that pluton is on those compute dies, it would be on all CPU variations (except the cloud variants which are different dies).

It's not unaltered; the CCD is actually upside down compared to the 5800X non-3D.

Are you going to split hairs or do you want to tell me that these are different dies? Because to implement Pluton in X3D they would have to make a new design, extra masks, etc. That would go directly against AMDs strategy behind the chiplett approach. For one SKU?

There is simply no logical reason why pluton would be on the compute die. Just name one.

But DLSS !!!!!!!111!111

Really? You know that DLSS is not available in all games but RSR is. Lets just compare native and leave it at that.

[NM64]

Oct. 2022 UPDATE: Welp, if Anandtech's Ryzen 7950X review is to be believed, then desktop Zen4 / Ryzen 7000 does indeed have Pluton:

• https://www.anandtech.com/show/17585...the-high-end/6

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ORIGINAL POST

Amusingly, Red Dead Redemption 2 just got announced today with FSR 2.0.

As said its just TPM at its core, either one can just use the TPM standard and ignore the Pluton extentions or there will be a switch to expose a standard tpm. (just guessing)

TPM (part of the PSP) and Pluton are already two seperate parts on Ryzen 6000.

Maybe that's the crux of our disagreement? You seem to be under the impression that it's part of the PSP when it is in fact separate hardware:
https://archive.ph/bFu0n

Zen 4 compute dies are the exact same from notebook to server

Compute die = the CCD with the CPU cores and stuff. Zen4 mobile hasn't been announced at all in any official capacity and only Dragon Range, not Phoenix, uses the exact same CCD. Phoenix and below look to be using a monolithic CCD that includes I/O and, by definition of it being on 4nm (which is information we do know officially), it cannot be the same.

Also, on AMD's previous mobile offerings that have subsequently been used on desktop APUs (e.g. 5700G), even the portion involving the cores are not 100% identical because these have reduced cache and, due to the monolithic nature, then has the cores and I/O moved closer together in order to keep die size down rather than just taking the server/desktop CCD and disabling cache of power/thermal reasons like was done on some Athlon II CPUs.

Are you going to split hairs or do you want to tell me that these are different dies? Because to implement Pluton in X3D they would have to make a new design, extra masks, etc. That would go directly against AMDs strategy behind the chiplett approach. For one SKU?

...that's kind of my point though. Pluton doesn't make sense in server, so why would it therefore be present in desktop (or even Dragon Range) due to the shared architecture?

Heck, there is even AM4 server hardware now as seen by the following being from Asrock Rack rather than plain-old Asrock:
https://www.asrockrack.com/general/p...?Model=X470D4U

There is simply no logical reason why pluton would be on the compute die. Just name one.

No no, I didn't mean that it'd be on the CCD, I was saying that the CCD would still need to be compatible with any such I/O die and, as you stated above, it would seem like making additional work for minimal (if any) gain to have Pluton on anything above a mobile-centric monolithic die since, as I stated above, it's actually separate hardware from the PSP.

[Dukenukemx]

and let me ask was this with or without DLSS2.x ?

what you say is maybe true and still a loss on people who dont care about powerconsumsion and want the maximum performance.

also the 50w less power consumsion goes away as soon as you activate DLSS2.x...

of course AMD has FSR1.0 and FSR2.0 but most games who support technology like this only support DLss2.x--.-

It's been done without DLSS and FSR. Also, FSR is really easy to enable in Linux or Windows and works both AMD and Nvidia cards. Probably works on Intel but I haven't tried.

Just add these to the .profile and reboot. When you set the correct resolution you should get FSR working.
export WINE_FULLSCREEN_FSR=1
export WINE_FULLSCREEN_FSR_STRENGTH=2

[Anux]

TPM (part of the PSP) and Pluton are already two seperate parts on Ryzen 6000.

Really? I didn't know that, just assumed they dropped PSP. But wouldn't the most logical way going forward be to keep PSP and Pluton like already done on the 6000? That would solve all you Linux fears. After all the die space for this stuff is negligible.

Compute die = the CCD with the CPU cores and stuff. Zen4 mobile hasn't been announced at all in any official capacity and only Dragon Range

Dragon range is for mobile (55+ W) workstations and gaming rigs.

not Phoenix, uses the exact same CCD. Phoenix and below look to be using a monolithic CCD that includes I/O and, by definition of it being on 4nm (which is information we do know officially), it cannot be the same.

I'm not sure that it will be 100% monolithic, is there any source for that (it could very well splitt CPU/GPU)? And yes it will definitly be a different mask/process. But what leads you to assume they would drop Pluton on a notebook chip that will be used with Win 11 99% of times?

Also, on AMD's previous mobile offerings that have subsequently been used on desktop APUs (e.g. 5700G), even the portion involving the cores are not 100% identical

Jepp they were always half a year behind and a slight reiteration of the core design, it would be logical to assume Phoenix gets the same treatment.

...that's kind of my point though. Pluton doesn't make sense in server, so why would it therefore be present in desktop (or even Dragon Range) due to the shared architecture?

I don't think it's because of shared architecture but need for Win server, the webserver space is > 80% linux as is cloud but you have many companies running windows clients and those are typically surrounded by many Win servers. To have 2 different server CPU lineups would not be clever.

No no, I didn't mean that it'd be on the CCD, I was saying that the CCD would still need to be compatible with any such I/O die

What kind of compatibility would there be needed if pluton does nothing different from TPM? And even if, the compute die could just ask the I/O die "is pluton available?" and just report that back to the OS. Any pluton protocol and communication stuff would be the problem of the OS.

it's actually separate hardware from the PSP.

Is it really? If I had to implement it, I would just make 2 different APIs for the same hardware.

[qarium]

Really? You know that DLSS is not available in all games but RSR is. Lets just compare native and leave it at that.

if you watch sales it looks like nvidia does well on 8nm compared to amd on 7nm...
its also looks like nvidia is able to earn more money per 1mm² chip die compared to amd...
if you benchmark with raytracing it also looks like nvidia is faster...

i know only 1 group of people who would prever amd instead of nvidia and thats the linux people who want opensource drivers.

my argument also still stands because AMD 7nm cards beat intel 6nm cards...

only because intel orders some 3nm/4nm/5nm wavers does not mean they win a battle.