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OpenBLAS Deciding Whether To Drop Support For Russia's Elbrus CPUs

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  • Markospox
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Something about this is going too far for me. I guess the problem I have with it is that you can't know all the harm that bug could do.
    Usually I'm really peaceful and I'd like to be in a world where nobody shoots rockets at other people but if you do and rocket rips your ass off, well it's not nice but maybe it should have happened because you were such a d**k, great when it detonates where it would cause no harm, but Russians would probably think about getting equipment that is deadly, they turned out to be killing invaders (I always thought they were, in fact, mostly, they shown that on many occasions), I know, used for sci or not, if it does something to stop the conflict even by limiting things (there is intel), and doing modification maybe when fighting stops, I wouldn't say that would be a worst idea.

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  • L_A_G
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    You're missing the point. The point was that you presumed to be wronged, and the only question you pose is whether the injury was willful. That's a pretty good way to poison any exchange.
    Again, I'm stating that I'm a victim of any kind. The fact that someone is being an arse and not arguing in good faith does not make the people they're arguing with them into victims. Questioning if your opponent is arguing in good faith or not is an attack, not a defense. You could even argue that it's an insult. On the other hand calling yourself a victim is simply a defense and that's not what I'm doing.

    It's not, though. Elbrus was created for Russian government and military applications, many of which require functionality of a package like OpenBLAS. You can be virtually assured that any effort to support OpenBLAS on these CPUs is providing some benefit to military and defense applications. It's almost unthinkable they wouldn't use OpenBLAS on it, at some point.
    You clearly don't seem to understand what the Basic Linear Algebra Subprograms actually are because they have "military applications" much the same way a pencil or a pocket calculator have. Do you even know what linear algebra is and what it's actually used for? Just like the library itself, it's usage on the ELBRUS ISA is similarly academic in nature. We're talking about something created by and for scientific research here. Running on an ISA created to reduce Russia's dependence on foreign technology doesn't cause a sudden and massive change in what it can do. Specially not when as an ISA it's basically a huge failure.

    It's almost like you're trying to use analogies to distract from the actual facts, which really aren't so hard to understand.
    I keep using analogies to try and explain things. Things you're repeatedly failing to understand like the "military applications" of a set of programs made by and for scientific researchers in areas like fluid dynamics.

    It should be obvious that nobody is using it for any serious science. Its performance is too poor for that. You're just seizing on the excuse that because it can be used for non-military/government purposes, that we shouldn't treat it as a piece of military technology. That's actually the opposite of how "dual-use" technologies are typically regarded.
    No, being a linear algebra library made by and for researchers in the world of scientific compute (which is where I wrote my master's thesis BTW) it's "military" applications are very much theoretical in nature. Technically yes, you can use it for assisting in some design work of new military hardware like jets, but like you admit, the performance of the ISA isn't up to the task. Those are going to be running on x86 anyway and they're probably going to use pirated copies of Dassault Solidworks instead, a piece of software made specifically for designing jets and similar systems.

    L_O_L. Another whopper.
    Maybe if you don't understand what OpenBLAS actually is and what it's used for... It's like I'm trying to argue with a flat earther and trying to explain why you can't see the curvature of the earth from ground level or various "irregularities" caused by light being refracted by the earth's atmosphere.

    I was trying to focus on a very real and concrete example. However, if you'd rather move back into the realm of the hypothetical, then what I'd say is that I could understand maybe a French OSS project maintainer having refused to accept patches to support some DARPA-funded project, during the 2003 Iraq war. To me, that would be analogous.
    An example being hypothetical doesn't make it any less right than a scientific "theory" only like gravity, climate change or germ theory being a "theory". You should probably stop and think for a moment when your thinking is literally the same as that of flat earthers, climate change denier and anti-vaxxers.

    You can't seem to see any slope that's not slippery. If and when something is cancelled that shouldn't be, that is when to make your stand.
    The fact that I use examples of things that were a series of progressive escalations into something truly awful doesn't mean I think literally everything is the start of one. What history teaches us is that once the ball really gets rolling there isn't much you can do to stop it and the only way to stop it is to nip it at the bud. To again use an over-used example; once the kristallnacht happened, there really wasn't anything anyone could do to stop the momentum that would lead to the truly awful things that were to begin happening in a few years time.

    You're trying to argue as if the worst-case is the rule, not the exception. This is never a good argument.
    Rule? I'm just talking about what I'm afraid of what it's going to eventually escalate into under the current political climate. One that I'd describe as one of "neo-McCarthyism".

    If we'd treat everything according to its worst-case outcome, we wouldn't drive cars, ride bicycles, or even climb ladders.
    Basic activities like that really don't work as analogies when it's about taking offensive action. A better analogy would be physical humiliation and normalizing its use. In this analogy my concern is that it's going to escalate and start to be used on people who don't deserve it for invalid reasons.

    Huh? I just said I can understand not wanting to accept a patch for that CPU. It provides a nonzero benefit. Not massive, but then providing aid in lots of small ways can add up to something nontrivial. How is that "total war"?
    Have you watched the regular news anytime recently? Russia has been hit with massive and very substantial sanctions of a kind that's never been seen before. Inconveniencing them over something whose military usage can be described as theoretical at best hasn't happened in isolation. Ranging from the substantial to the insubstantial like this makes for a pretty total non-military offensive on Russia.

    Most of the developed world is doing basically everything short of things that would trigger World War 3. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz is even explicitly talking about avoiding escalation that would lead to it.

    No, you're not.
    Again, you don't seem to understand what BLAS is and what it's used for. I really do recommend that you take a moment to look up what it is and what it's used for.

    Yes. And if you're an open source maintainer, not accepting a patch is where you can make a difference. Not a huge difference, but we're not talking about someone expressing their moral outrage by "liking" a post on social media, which would be a truly pointless, symbolic gesture.
    That's pretty much exactly what I keep trying to tell you. We're talking about a symbolic gesture that at best inconveniences a few people over something whose military applications are theoretical at best.

    You're alternately assuming the best and worst cases, on the basis of whether it helps your argument. That's pretty disingenuous thing to do.
    Simply pointing out, repeatedly, who are the actual users of OpenBLAS on ELBRUS and the limited effect on them is hardly a "best case" scenario. What it is, what it's used for and what it's capable of are known facts. Not theoretical points with best and worst cases. I keep trying to inform you and you keep pretending like these linear algebra functions are some kind of Pandora's box rather than listening to someone who has actually used it professionally or even looking it up yourself.
    Last edited by L_A_G; 26 April 2022, 10:53 AM.

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  • leipero
    tuxd3v Well, that's right definition as far as I know for self-determination. Why they want to exterminate them, well, they are Nazis that's why.

    Kosovo is a long story, short version of it is "It's complicated", no one is in delusion that there were no mistakes on Serbian side for it, but, Kosovo has been autonomous region for 60+ years, it never stopped being that, not a single decent person (being Albanian or Serbian or whatever) will tell you that their culture, language, education, health care etc. were the problem, it was poorer part of the country, and it was lifted out of poverty by whole Ex-YU, not only Serbia (but mostly Serbia to be fair). The problem was that Albanians had far better life in Kosovo than in Albania, especially during communist regime in Albania (that was sanctioned by other countries etc.), when 90's hit, they didn't live as they used to, but no one did, that was the reality of sanctions against country involved in ethnic conflicts, so everyone did suffer with lower life standard. With lower standard of living, comes radicalization, and old separatist ideas do spread, and that leads us towards what was their problem, their (separatists, not all Albanians) problem was that they got used to live a relatively good life, and life became hard, logical solution for them was to be separated (look how it turned out now..., Kosovo is currently a black hole of Europe..., not because Albanians per-se, but because US/EU installed literal terrorists as puppet regime who don't give a single F about Albanian people).
    AFAIK there were much more victims of "KLA" than 4000, even NATO did a good job on killing Albanians (supposedly their "ally" - read about bombing of Albanian refugees), but I don't have numbers separated by ethnicity to be fair, a lot of civilians (Albanian, Serbian and others) were killed by "KLA" terrorists (and yes, even US considered/listed them as an terrorist organization till 1998 when they decided to use them to "spread democracy").

    I don't know about those laws, but I do know they had discriminatory laws against Russians and Russian speaking population and that such a "great democracy" banned any media and so on since 2014. If one considers Kosovo as an "country", Ukraine would even beat them, and not by a small margin either in terms of corruption and lack of rights. So yes, I know Ukraine was and still is the most corrupt country in Europe by far.

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  • tuxd3v
    Originally posted by leipero View Post
    The reality of the matter is, no one ever did forbid to Albanians to speak their language, to cherish their culture, they had schools and universities, TVs, Radios etc. on their own language, parlament representatives = no problem, they were even offered wider autonomy, the only issue is, no separate state, that's all (they would de-facto have independent state by what was offered to them), there were no prosecutions against them like in Ukraine against Russians, to the contrary.
    By international Law, any people that is being oppressed, with its rights suppressed have the right to self determination.
    The key-points here, is genocide, suppression of language , culture, etc.. because if a population has not being "badly treated" then is has no right to carve a country inside other country.
    For example, there are tons of situations were several different people live together inside same country in peace, and its the same country for everybody.
    The International Law only provides mechanisms to protect those being oppressed.

    Usually that ends with a Autonomous Region( inside the country ), and only if the situation didn't resolve itself should be adopted the creation of a different state for that people to live in peace( Like DPR and LPR cases ).
    DPR and LPR were supposed to be autonomous regions inside Ukraine, but after 8 years it turned out that the nazis continued to exterminate that people, and so the only solution is the recognition of DPR and LPR as independent states...there are no other option left.

    Now what I don't understand is why Ukraine wants to exterminate them...they lost Crimea because of that...they should have learn something no?
    Because they continue to press on the problem, they ended up loosing Lugansk too..
    And we don't know, but for what I understand, this could very well lead to a bigger separation of other Ukrainian Regions too...because there are a lot of Russian speaker in the east.
    If someone don't stop de nazis asap, prepare yourself... because the people suffer only, until a point of no return...and then they will fight for auto-determination!

    I don't know much about the conflict in Serbia/ Kosovo, and how it unfolded..its something that I need to revise in the Future..
    I know that there were causalities there, but I don't know how many...
    I read somewhere that 4000 lost their lives, does you have any numbers about the death tool?

    I see,
    So if they had right to their Language/Culture/etc, what was their problem?
    Because they could be integrated in Serbia, as an autonomous Region?!I read about separatist movements, but by Law if no harm is done to a population, then it will need to be inside that country( Autonomous Region ).

    The recognition of a region as a independent state, can only happen, as a last resort( if that population is not accepted in a Autonomous region inside the in Donbass case).

    Does you know that Ukrainian nazis passed a Law in the parliament(RADA) saying that Ukrainian Ethnic Russians were considered as "biological waste"???
    crazy no???

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  • leipero
    Originally posted by tuxd3v View Post
    So if you say that Donbass can't be legal?, then you have to admit also that Kosovo by NATO is not a legal country and so it is part of Serbia!
    This is also true, if you follow any principles or "rules based order". But rules do not apply to self-proclaimed "1st class citizens of the world", and that's not as far from Nazism either. Still, there's big difference between Kosovo region and Donbas/Lugansk, the difference is, separatism in Kosovo always existed, but, most of the Albanians didn't have any issue in living with Serbs, until they (small portion of them) got radicalized and armed by, well..., guess who...
    What happened then? The "KLA" started terrorist attacks, the little known fact of the matter in "international community" is that "KLA" killed more ethnic Albanians than Serbians, yup! Why? Because they disagreed with them (not even necessarily on separatism).
    But, the most important difference is, the history, how did Albanians became a majority in Kosovo province, and yes, guess..., Nazism is also involved..., as well as insane ideas of Yugoslavian leaders (Tito etc.). The reality of the matter is, no one ever did forbid to Albanians to speak their language, to cherish their culture, they had schools and universities, TVs, Radios etc. on their own language, parlament representatives = no problem, they were even offered wider autonomy, the only issue is, no separate state, that's all (they would de-facto have independent state by what was offered to them), there were no prosecutions against them like in Ukraine against Russians, to the contrary.
    Last edited by leipero; 16 April 2022, 02:23 AM.

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  • leipero
    Originally posted by tuxd3v View Post
    Who told you that there are 4.7Million REAL refugees??and since when??
    The truth is that majority of that people is fleeing Ukraine because they want to live in EU, the War is the excuse they were waiting for, Western Ukraine almost didn't saw war!
    And the War that some Saw, its not like the US Wars, it was conducted with precise munitions only on targets, not on civilians.
    This, nailed it. Your whole post is absolute truth, but this section I found interesting, as an open/direct person, I truly can't stand such people (the so called "refugees" who never saw a war at all), and I'm unapologetic about it. They wave Ukrainian/(insert X here) flag, radicalize others, but they don't care for Ukraine/X, all they care is themselves. And to be clear, I have no issues with people who care for themselves only, it's fine, but don't pretend and lie about it, that I find unforgivable.

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  • leipero
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    I don't read it, so I don't say this with much authority, but isn't Daily Mail a tabloid? If so, you probably shouldn't be using it as a representative sample of "western" journalism.
    Nit-picking some details doesn't invalidate the broader story.

    You know this comment cuts both ways, right?
    What I still don't understand is how you accept Russia's own narrative of its war as the ground truth. Even during the 2003 Iraq war, plenty of critical information was published in the Western (and even US-based) media. If you're not seeing anything unflattering in Russian news, then how can you really believe they're telling you the truth?

    I find it sad that the only way it seems you can make sense of the world is in terms of competing hegemonies. Google really doesn't care about the US, nor does the US really care about Google.
    Moreover, the US didn't have some anti-Russia agenda, before it started invading its neighbors. If Russia had followed in the path of a country like Germany, it could enjoy both commercial success and be a fully respected member of the international community. Putin needs to get past this archaic 19th century thinking that the path to power, wealth, and respect is one that can be forged militarily. More likely, Russia needs to somehow get past Putin.

    You've jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire. I don't know why you'd want to trust the Chinese, given their rampant censorship and social credit system. Xi Jinping basically is Big Brother.
    There's literally no difference in narrative, being tabloid or not, CNN, NBC, BBC, FOX, they are all "tabloids" in that sense, mass misinformation media with clear and direct agenda, there's no need to "nit-pick" anything, "shopping mall attack" is another prime example where BBC/CNN cut the most relevant part of the video and presented to fit it's own agenda.

    Well, I have good reasons to accept their "narrative", because I have information on what happened in the Ukraine, because I have long term memory in relatively working condition (unlike many who think this started on february 24th), so really, it's not about who do I trust the most, it's about logic, data, and arranging those sets in "big picture" form. From that, it doesn't really matter what Russian media says, what matters is, they are in the right, and that's where story ends. I ofc. provided evidence in earlier posts from "Russian propaganda media", that's why they got blocked to begin with from the "west", you can't argue with evidence.

    That is the state of the world. US does have anti-Russia agenda AT THE VERY LEAST since the end of WW2, and not only US, but it's EU puppets as well, your statement is factually incorrect and is shown so many times in last 30 years that's not even worth talking about it.
    Germany lol, what prosperity? Germany is NOT an independent country, it doesn't have anything sovereign, it produces low-tech commodities for EU/world (such as cars and other products etc.), scientifically, militarily, it's under US occupation and have nothing on it's own, you can argue if they deserved it after WW2 or not, but that's another topic, we are discussing here their prosperity..., the reality of the matter is, Germany (as all of the EU) relies on fake economy same as US, and it's in debt that they can never re-pay either, and that economy assumes "2nd/3rd class citizens of the world". Unlike you, I will not accept such state in the world, neither will Russia nor anyone who is ethically on the right side, even at the cost of death, let alone inconvenience "EU public" is not ready for, let alone death. Putin is completely irrelevant here, any independent Russian president would do the same in the given situation.

    There are few reasons why I should trust China over the US/EU, and here's my reasoning.
    1. China doesn't use hypocritical narratives and lies about it's own intentions under "democracy" (or whatever idiotic term used) umbrella.
    2. Since Ming dinasty (or before), Chinese culture abandoned old primitive tactics Europeans (latter European Americans) use to destroy half of the planet.
    3. They do not use blackmails to gain their "power" over small countries as US/EU do.
    4. Their actions speak louder than words.
    As for their "social credit systems" and similar nonsense from CIA written Wikipedia, I DO NOT CARE, and I WILL START TO CARE ONLY WHEN I BECOME A FULL CITIZEN OF CHINA, until then, it's none of my business, it's their country, their people will decide how they want to live, same as US people will decide how they want to live in the US, I simply DO NOT care, not should I care (nor should you for that matter).
    And as long as Chinese do not go around bombing for their own agenda anyone who disagrees (or not) with their view, they are far more trustworthy than US or any of the ex-colonizers and so on.
    It's that simple really. Anyway, as I said, petro-dollar is pretty much finished, and I am giving China (and Russia, India, Brazil etc.) the opportunity to create a better world that is fair for all people in it, same opportunity US had after WW2 that is gone to waste and created hell on earth.

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  • tuxd3v
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    That's not true. For instance, the UK didn't pull RT's broadcasting license until several weeks into the war. And that's because the British don't allow broadcasters owned by a political entity, which RT clearly is. Even so, people in the UK can still access RT content online. If they really wanted to cancel RT, they'd also have blocked its website.
    I don't know about the UK, but for the rest it was closed and they say its closed, even RT says it was blocked in US/UK/EU..i can't access, and majority of people I talk, they can't too.
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    As for your point about a "false narrative", you know there are 4.7 million refugees that fled Ukraine, so far?
    Who told you that there are 4.7Million REAL refugees??and since when??
    The truth is that majority of that people is fleeing Ukraine because they want to live in EU, the War is the excuse they were waiting for, Western Ukraine almost didn't saw war!
    And the War that some Saw, its not like the US Wars, it was conducted with precise munitions only on targets, not on civilians.
    Now with that being said,
    Fore sure that there are civilian causalities, and if not, the nazis would "make sure" that Russians are "creating causalities" feet the western narrative!

    The war is fierce, but is happening in the East,
    And its not for 2 months...its for 8 years, but your Associated Press that you call "journalists" never report about that, only fake news.
    Remember the white helmets in Syria? Associated Press was in bed with them, they are actors in a War movie.

    ho wait.. the same White helmets created by UK?...that's right!!
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    They're not, but I get that you're just high on the Russian state propaganda. But why is it that the Russians are in such a minority who are saying this? Can you really believe everyone not in Russia's influence is corrupt?
    Yes they are..
    UK/US/EU support the nazis since 2014.
    Weapons, training experts,and so on.
    Or do you think the nazis, are fighting with stones and wood stakes?
    No they are using tactics learn from UK/US/EU, with weapons from them too
    Yes we do support the nazis, it doesn't became more public than what it already is!

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Or, in 2014, Putin showed his true nature yet again, by taking over Crimea and sparking the insurrection in Donbas and Luhansk, but the world didn't take him very seriously. And now, in 2022, he's doing what we all knew he was capable of, after watching how Russia waged war in Syria.
    Russia did nothing to Crimea in 2014.
    Crimea was a autonomous region inside Ukraine!
    After the violent coupe d´etat and assassination attempt of the elected president of Ukraine and after the Nazis prohibit the Russian population from speaking their languages, prohibit their culture, etc, Crimea said "Enough is Enough"..
    They made a referendum in Crimea, and after that they approved the referendum in the local Parliament of Crimea, like internation Law says, they declared themselves independent nation.
    After that, they later asked Russia to Accept them in, which Russia did.

    So don't come saying that "Putin" this, and "Putin" that... Russia had nothing to do with Crimea..
    Ukraine lost Crimea due to their Nazi dream, were part of the population has the other part as slaves, Crimean people rejected that, using International Law!

    Now in relation to Donbass,
    People of Donbass rejected nazism from the beginning,
    They self declared themselves Donetsk People Republics( DPR ), and Luhansk People Republic( LPR ).
    The nazis started to Genocide them, until Russia started to be pissed about such a Crime in the 21century.

    That situation lead to the Minsk accords in 2015, and they were signed by Ukraine, that also agreed on them!
    France,Germany and Russia were also countries that were present in the Minsk Agreements..
    The agreement gave DPR and LPR, an autonomous status inside Ukraine, which would permit them to live in least they thought..

    But the Nazis in Kiev failed to implement the Agreements, nazism in Ukraine get each time stronger and they genocided a lot of Donbass people.
    In the meantime,
    Since mid 2014 some Ukrainian Military people, decided to fight against evil( because they could not understand being in the army...and seeing the army killing innocent people ), and they created the DPR/LPR Militias.
    Also at same time, as the story was known worldwide a lot of people from around the world started to pack their bags, and donbass here we go!
    They joined donbass militias against the nazis.
    Yes people from for example US, France, Spain, Italy and a lot of other countries...
    They are not fighting for money, donbass as none, they fight for what is right, for the true Autodetermination right of any Population!
    Its very heroic/noble what they are doing!!

    Now Ukraine continued to kill them, and they found another plan...yes get support from the US or EU, so military adviser for the nazis arrived in Ukraine from UK/US, and weapons were provided since then..
    Ukraine had prepared a full attack on donbass in March 2022, but Russia intervened!
    Russia recognized donbass republics the same way NATO did with KOSOVO.

    So if you say that Donbass can't be legal?, then you have to admit also that Kosovo by NATO is not a legal country and so it is part of Serbia!
    Last edited by tuxd3v; 15 April 2022, 09:50 PM. Reason: complement..

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  • tuxd3v
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Not to mention Kurds, with US support. They're still sitting atop a pile of ISIS prisoners, with almost no help from anyone.
    Well you know that Kurds had the same objective as ISIS at beginning of the war??
    that's right..
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    To fight alongside Putin? Yes, we've heard.
    No fight for the same criminal gang of terrorists, West Ukranians or the nazis...yes ISIS, Alqaeda, etc are in Ukraine free
    Not only terrorists from Syria, but also terrorists from Georgia, mamushvili is the leader of the Georgian Terrorists in Ukraine, by the way..

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Just to be clear, the US is not selling weapons to Ukraine. They're a donation for Ukraine's defense.
    No that is not being clear, the US is charging Ukrainians for those weapons
    More over all the American interests in Ukraine are full of blood in their hands, just for money... its already known that Ukraine pay taxes at 5 years, and after 5 years they pay 300%...its better than a gold mine!
    Even the son of US president Biden is involved in sucking the Ukrainian blood, like vampires..

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    No, or else maybe the US would have pushed France & Germany to accept it into NATO.
    coder, its public that the US wanted to use Ukraine as a NATO country to put its nuclear missiles in Ukraine pointed to Moscow, but Russia will never allow that!
    Russia sent its position to the US, and to NATO about the subject.
    This is public information!

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Why do you buy into Putin's victim mindset? He's like the bad boy, acting out in class, and then complaining that his punishment is because the teacher hates him.
    I don't buy nothing, I make my own opinion on things.
    I follow the Ukrainian conflict since 2014, and I know that the US and EU made a violent coup d'etat in Ukraine in 2014, and they tried to even assassinate the Unique president Ukraine had since then till now ( Yanokovych ).
    Eu wanted Ukraine in EU
    US wanted NATO in Ukraine

    Poroshenko, and Zelinsky regimes are complete puppet regimes from EU/US..
    It goes to the point that Zelinsky needs to ask the US if he can do peace negotiations with Russia, and in what terms they can be done..its pathetic!

    This should never have happened in Europe, if the US respected Europe!!
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Because Russia is deliberately bombing food warehouses. And it's obviously deliberate, when they're bombing one after another.
    No Russia is not Bombing food warehouses.
    The Ukrainian economy cannot support such levels of Borrowed money for weapons...the people have no food!!
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    If something sounds too stupid to believe, maybe you shouldn't.
    I believe in what I see only.
    I see Ukrainians lots and lots always around the Russian food trucks to get food to eat,
    I see what they say on TV, they are so broke, that they don't even have bread to eat!!!!
    And the few they have is stolen by the nazis terrorists daily!

    On the other hand, their own regime, is buying Trillions of weapons!
    And no, its not because of the war with Russia, because the flocking of weapons in Ukraine started in 2014, but they got a real momentum in the last 6 months of the last was planned in advance!
    Just because they wanted to attack the other half of the country..nazis will never be good people!

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Did your Catholic upbringing not teach you the virtues of humility? You know that Jesus hung out with sinners, right? He didn't look down on them as "animals".
    Catholic church asks you to forgive those who commit atrocities..
    But I am against the nazis for what they are doing to Ukrainian people, its simply wrong!
    Also I can't forgive the US/EU for the mess we created in Ukraine..yes we bear the responsibility of it!

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  • tuxd3v
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    That's not true at all. They were murdered in Russian-occupied areas, and the corpses were already old by the time the Russians withdrew. There's basically no way it could've been anyone besides the Russian military.
    You know that's not true..
    Its very well known that only some 4 days after Russian troops withdrew from Bucha , that those bodies started appearing on the streets.
    Its documented!
    More over,
    Those Satellites images showed are FAKE!They were taken in different days, if taken at all.
    Why we know?
    Because there were no Satellites from that company over that zone of Ukraine in the days they said they took those pictures...yes it can be verified!
    They were already refuted,
    Also not even the sun illumination with its shadows in the ground match the days/hours that those pictures were supposedly taken..this is Science, we can´t beat it!!
    Those images can be independently verified by any big Secret Services Agency interested...its Science, you can't hide it...its proven technology.

    If you look into those bodies, you will see that those bodies have a White Bandage in the arm, yes it means those civilians were fighting for the Russian side!
    In other words they were Ethnic Russians!
    Who do you think killed ethnic Russians?...the Russians?of-course not, it was the nazis!

    More evidence,
    Some corpses are in fake positions, they can't have being killed on those positions.. you can look for example the guy in a Bicycle, its body was laid down in that position, otherwise he would not be able to fall in movement from the bicycle on that positions( he was shot dead in a different place )..
    There are tons of evidence..and a real investigation could be done,but no real investigation will be done( because it will expose the nazis )!

    Moreover, why Bucha, is all of a sudden very important...
    But 8 years of genocide is not?Genocide in Ukraine started in 2014..that people started to be worried with Human Rights...only in Bucha??? right..

    Now, what you can ask is... who benefited from this episode?
    Clearly is not the Russians that are benefiting from who have interests in "painting" that scenario?
    But the answers to that, .. coder .. you already know!!
    I am not saying nothing knew.

    Bucha was staged to be used against Russia in the UN Human Rights Council...that's it!
    They killed that people( because for the nazis the ethnic Russians are not human people ) to blame Russia, and make Russia exit the UN HRC...that was the objective!

    They murdered people, just to have a political tool..disgusting!
    Here you have the truth..
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    But Russian state media would never admit that. Can you imagine such a thing?
    Russia state media, called for a independent investigation
    France called for a independent investigation..because France knows what's going on on the ground..France is part of NATO..
    Russia, for what I understand, provided already their own investigation,
    But they are ready to work in a international group if someone wants..but the thing one wants!!

    Why do you think no one wants???
    You know ...there are forensic, and scientific tools to determine with exact results, when that people were shot dead, the positions of the bodies in the ground, and the time frame where those pictures were taken.its can't fool science!

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