OpenBLAS Deciding Whether To Drop Support For Russia's Elbrus CPUs

[leipero]

tuxd3v The idea is simple actually "declare criminals as good guys", for example, Zelensky and rest of the Ukranian government should be in prison for what they did since 2014. (and before for that matter), and they likely will.
Then, you declare good guys to be criminals and push propaganda further. So, ISIS were not really a good guys, but, there were other invented names in Syria that were declared "good guys", and ofc. Assad is "insane dictator", it's really "a classic" example of most primitive propaganda one could imagine. Ofc. "we" (US/EU/whoever is on that side) are the "good guys", and famous "democracy and freedom vs dictatorship" nonsense. It serves 2 purposes, it's a "feel good" personal projection of the population, and it goes into the interest of the corrupt people who are manipulating truth.
For example, every American or European would "feel good about him/herself" if he/she thinks that "we are free world", but, if you have such irrational belief in your domestic population, you can project "but we have to save X people from evil Y dictator", and it will work, as long as majority of your population is oblivious to the facts of the reality around them.
That's the core idea of Nazism or "exceptionalism" (US method), they are basically the same, both believe in superiority, the only difference is that Nazis believe in superiority by "race" ("Aryan race"), while in exceptionalism, you believe in superiority of "culture", for the most part "democracy" and similar feel good nonsense.

Now, it would be hard for average American or European to say "yup, I live in corrupt country where evil people are on the power" simply because that's in direct contradiction of "exceptionalism/Nazism" ideology.

The big difference between Ukraine and Syria is that in Ukraine there are Russians (at least 30-40%, in reality probably over 70% when self-declaration is excluded and objective reality observed), and they have been killed for 8+ years by Nazis for only one reason = because they are Russians, that's the "primary sin", basically, the same as the topic we are discussing on, while directly/seemingly unrelated, it is exact same reason why OpenBLAS is deciding to drop Elbrus CPU support, only one reason = It's Russian. Same reason why Huawei is banned in the US = It's Chinese (ofc. for that is used "security threat" excuse, like Android or Windows are not a security threat across the globe..., it's nonsense without principles...). That is the main reason why Russians are so careful to have as little civilians killed, and that's exact same reason why "Ukranians" have no issue to kill civilians (Buca example, they killed mostly people with "white band" on their arms = people who do not support Ukro-Nazis and then blamed Russia ofc.).

War is business for some sides, mainly US will profit in this conflict, everyone else is on the lost. US is in economicaly terrible situation, debt is insane, and you don't need to be an economist to figure out that is really bad, inflation is high in past 2 decades, nothing is so sudden or "Putin fault". So, US will sell weapons to Ukraine, to other EU countries because of "threat of Russia", potentially even gas/oil and so on. EU will lose a lot, because they will need to pay much more for all of that, Russia will be at loss as well on the short run. So everyone loses really, hence why my first comment about Ursula and other unelected morons from the "EU". Keep in mind that, despite what the goal is, US is one of the few (if not only) countries that did actually profit from WW2.

I think it's highly related to a "digital age", it's much easier to have delusions in it, especially with "social networks" and platforms. While things you've mentioned probably do matter as well, I think "mass delusion" is so much easier with "(anti)-social networks".

[tuxd3v]

leipero
Yes, it was Ukrainians of ethnic Russian communities that were mass murdered in Bucha.
And yes the nazis did it, and yes EU/USA knows that very well, as we all do.

Nazism is on the rise right now.

[coder]

tuxd3v I just finished reading some "western" articles, and one amazing one for Daily Mail,

I don't read it, so I don't say this with much authority, but isn't Daily Mail a tabloid? If so, you probably shouldn't be using it as a representative sample of "western" journalism.

claiming that "Buca massacre"

Nit-picking some details doesn't invalidate the broader story.

It's scary stuff when such people of questionable intelligence and/or ethics are in place of influencing other people, the level of hate they are spreading is insane.

You know this comment cuts both ways, right?

What I still don't understand is how you accept Russia's own narrative of its war as the ground truth. Even during the 2003 Iraq war, plenty of critical information was published in the Western (and even US-based) media. If you're not seeing anything unflattering in Russian news, then how can you really believe they're telling you the truth?

I urge people to not use google services at all (yt, gmail etc.), they have proven they are tools of the US attempt to keep it's hegemony

I find it sad that the only way it seems you can make sense of the world is in terms of competing hegemonies. Google really doesn't care about the US, nor does the US really care about Google.

Moreover, the US didn't have some anti-Russia agenda, before it started invading its neighbors. If Russia had followed in the path of a country like Germany, it could enjoy both commercial success and be a fully respected member of the international community. Putin needs to get past this archaic 19th century thinking that the path to power, wealth, and respect is one that can be forged militarily. More likely, Russia needs to somehow get past Putin.

Huawei uses it's own services (since, surprise - surprise, it's banned by the US, and removed from google support), so that would be a good option,

You've jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire. I don't know why you'd want to trust the Chinese, given their rampant censorship and social credit system. Xi Jinping basically is Big Brother.

[coder]

Victim? The difference was between assuming if you're arguing in bad or good faith.

You're missing the point. The point was that you presumed to be wronged, and the only question you pose is whether the injury was willful. That's a pretty good way to poison any exchange.

Casting yourself as the victim is a clear indication you're not operating in good faith. This is consistent with your preoccupation with cancel culture, which tends to resonate most strongly with those susceptible to a victim mindset.

In this case we're talking about not putting in an active effort to punitively punish an ISA for it's relation to the country that developed it.

You need to stop pulling this shit out of your imagination and instead look at the actual facts. I'm not going to debate your stupid strawman.

To again use an analogy; This is like a sandwich shop owner refusing service to the relative of a criminal.

It's not, though. Elbrus was created for Russian government and military applications, many of which require functionality of a package like OpenBLAS. You can be virtually assured that any effort to support OpenBLAS on these CPUs is providing some benefit to military and defense applications. It's almost unthinkable they wouldn't use OpenBLAS on it, at some point.

It's almost like you're trying to use analogies to distract from the actual facts, which really aren't so hard to understand.

That's kind of my point... ELBRUS may have been created by Russia in an effort to achieve some form of technological independence and it's used in plenty of perfectly benign applications. Particularly a with compute library meant for scientific applications

It should be obvious that nobody is using it for any serious science. Its performance is too poor for that. You're just seizing on the excuse that because it can be used for non-military/government purposes, that we shouldn't treat it as a piece of military technology. That's actually the opposite of how "dual-use" technologies are typically regarded.

We are after all talking about the equivalent of sanctioning a scientific journal.

L_O_L. Another whopper.

Well that's a pretty lame misdirection when I talked about what he, or someone as crazy as him, could do once back in the oval office.

I was trying to focus on a very real and concrete example. However, if you'd rather move back into the realm of the hypothetical, then what I'd say is that I could understand maybe a French OSS project maintainer having refused to accept patches to support some DARPA-funded project, during the 2003 Iraq war. To me, that would be analogous.

You're again missing that this is about starting a process that may eventually snowball into something genuinely destructive.

You can't seem to see any slope that's not slippery. If and when something is cancelled that shouldn't be, that is when to make your stand.

nor did Weimar Germany slide into the holocaust overnight.

You're trying to argue as if the worst-case is the rule, not the exception. This is never a good argument.

If we'd treat everything according to its worst-case outcome, we wouldn't drive cars, ride bicycles, or even climb ladders.

You're the one who's basically advocating for total war

Huh? I just said I can understand not wanting to accept a patch for that CPU. It provides a nonzero benefit. Not massive, but then providing aid in lots of small ways can add up to something nontrivial. How is that "total war"?

The one on a Jihad here isn't me. It's the guy who dragged a totally unrelated issue into this thread.

I'm questioning the wisdom of the equivalent to sanctioning a scientific journal

No, you're not.

To make a difference where you can make one.

Yes. And if you're an open source maintainer, not accepting a patch is where you can make a difference. Not a huge difference, but we're not talking about someone expressing their moral outrage by "liking" a post on social media, which would be a truly pointless, symbolic gesture.

and for what? To inconvenience some academic research institutions.

You're alternately assuming the best and worst cases, on the basis of whether it helps your argument. That's pretty disingenuous thing to do.

[coder]

We live each and each time more in a multicultural world that doesn't need this type of Racism( sorry but...I just called it what it is.. ).

It's no, though. If you want to fight Russophobia, then go find a project unrelated to the Russian military that's being "cancelled" and stand up for it.

Either you're picking the wrong hill to stand on, in order to wage your war, or you're waging the wrong war while standing on this one. Either way, your point aligns poorly with the facts of the case.

[coder]

I've got an idea, what if an updated, faulty version was pushed, if baddies update, rockets launch in unpredictable directions into air and ex after 20 meters or don't launch, if able to do that at all, it would be faulty only for that processor?

Something about this is going too far for me. I guess the problem I have with it is that you can't know all the harm that bug could do. If you specifically hacked the the code of a military system, that'd be a different matter. But, because this software is dual-use, I wouldn't be comfortable with the idea of affecting its use in other sorts of equipment or applications.

Looking at it from a strictly practical standpoint, I'd say it'd be difficult to pull off. The Elbrus maintainers are probably going to review any modifications specific to their CPU.

[coder]

Leipero, we already knew before it started what was going to happen... at least I did foresee it happening..
You just need to look and see, how they blocked all Russia Media first to then start a false narrative, you can start by that point.

That's not true. For instance, the UK didn't pull RT's broadcasting license until several weeks into the war. And that's because the British don't allow broadcasters owned by a political entity, which RT clearly is. Even so, people in the UK can still access RT content online. If they really wanted to cancel RT, they'd also have blocked its website.

As for your point about a "false narrative", you know there are 4.7 million refugees that fled Ukraine, so far? How can anyone imagine the truth won't emerge with those people? I guess Russian media is probably interviewing all the ones in Russia, or at least who are saying pro-Russian things, but if "western" media weren't reporting the story that the refugees fleeing into Europe were telling, then everyone there would know it.

So Western countries are siding with the Nazis,

They're not, but I get that you're just high on the Russian state propaganda. But why is it that the Russians are in such a minority who are saying this? Can you really believe everyone not in Russia's influence is corrupt?

I am researching the Ukrainian conflict since 2014!

Research starts with a hypothesis which you then try to disprove in the best way(s) possible. If all you're doing is reading a one-sided narrative, that's not research.

Like I said, the sad part is that I don't get more shocked anymore, I only get more sad at each day, because this mass genocide started in 2014 and in 2022 the world failed to exterminate nazism in Ukraine, and the only country that is fighting it is Russia( that's why they are so heavily sanctioned).

Or, in 2014, Putin showed his true nature yet again, by taking over Crimea and sparking the insurrection in Donbas and Luhansk, but the world didn't take him very seriously. And now, in 2022, he's doing what we all knew he was capable of, after watching how Russia waged war in Syria.

Answer me this: if Russia is doing so much good in the world, why is it that Russia conveniently stands to benefit from these actions?

And if de-natzification were the true objective of the war in Ukraine, why wasn't that in the terms Russia put forth to NATO, last December?

Russia is now running through the list of all reasons given for every other war, in the past century, to the point that it's almost absurd. Nazis, genocide, and weapons of mass destruction. If Russia were truly concerned about these issues, it would have first raised them and sought action through the UN. Instead, they could only speak internationally about NATO expansionism, and after their war started to go horribly wrong, we hear these other excuses.

They are alone in a fight,

That should make you suspicious. If they were really doing so much good, they should have lots of allies.

But let me tell you, that sooner or later good will prevail against evil,

It's nice to think so, but what often happens is that the fires of war burn out and the world moves on. There have been many empires throughout history, but none has lasted forever.

at least I do hope so, otherwise we are doomed as a specie!

We probably are, but military expansionism is probably going to take a back seat to destruction of the environment, in terms of bringing about our downfall. Russia isn't on the right side of either one, FWIW.

[coder]

Elbrus is for commercial/scientific/academic use..

But not originally or only those uses.

[coder]

To speak frankly, I was amazed how Russia managed to stabilize the region,in around 4 years..

Not to mention Kurds, with US support. They're still sitting atop a pile of ISIS prisoners, with almost no help from anyone.

Does you knew that, some part of the marauders and terrorists in Syrian flocked to Ukraine?

To fight alongside Putin? Yes, we've heard.

The US is sending weapons, so that they can kill each other, but its Ukraine that will pay the bill,

Just to be clear, the US is not selling weapons to Ukraine. They're a donation for Ukraine's defense.

Ukraine is what the US wanted the most:

No, or else maybe the US would have pushed France & Germany to accept it into NATO.

The US doesn't want to care about Russia. Ever since the fall of the USSR, the US didn't have much reason to see Russia as a threat, but Putin seems somehow determined to change that.

Why do you buy into Putin's victim mindset? He's like the bad boy, acting out in class, and then complaining that his punishment is because the teacher hates him.

The most problems Europe has, the better for the US.

I'm not sure why you would think that. Most of the European countries are the strongest allies the US has. There's no value in weakening them.

Now the thing is... Ukraine right now doesn't even have food to give to its people, is very sad,

Because Russia is deliberately bombing food warehouses. And it's obviously deliberate, when they're bombing one after another.

The most stupid thing that can happen to a Country...
You don't even had money for food to give to your own people, but you are asking for trillions do dollars of weapons...

If something sounds too stupid to believe, maybe you shouldn't.

The American people is messed up, they don't construct logical thinking from the beginning,

I wonder if it occurred to you that two logical people can reach different conclusions on the basis of different facts and assumptions?

What I think is that values are passed from father to son, along all generations..there are no other way..
When you have a break in this chain, because families are not anymore "traditional" or conservative, your children's will grow up like animals only( no Humanity there ), without acquiring the real values of a human being..

I think one mark of humanity is not to look down on others as "animals". A classic trope of sewing division is to dehumanize the others.

Did your Catholic upbringing not teach you the virtues of humility? You know that Jesus hung out with sinners, right? He didn't look down on them as "animals".

[coder]

there were other invented names in Syria that were declared "good guys", and ofc. Assad is "insane dictator", it's really "a classic" example of most primitive propaganda one could imagine.

You're right about one thing: the US wanted to get involved in Syria but essentially created a "Free Syrian Army", because it couldn't really ally itself with any of the existing factions on the ground. After training and arming them, this FSA group then quickly dissolved.

However, Obama really didn't want to get involved in Syria. After Iraq and Libya, another war in the Middle East was the last thing he wanted. It's only when ISIS began to pose a serious threat to stability in Iraq that the US had to go in.

Ofc. "we" (US/EU/whoever is on that side) are the "good guys", and famous "democracy and freedom vs dictatorship" nonsense. It serves 2 purposes, it's a "feel good" personal projection of the population, and it goes into the interest of the corrupt people who are manipulating truth.

A lot of Americans didn't support the war in Iraq or Vietnam. Having a free press can undermine the government's narrative. The fact that Russian media doesn't reveal anything unflattering about the Russian government is that much more reason not to trust it. I find it interesting that a couple of non-Russians are apparently the only ones who believe their lies.

That's the core idea of Nazism or "exceptionalism" (US method), they are basically the same, both believe in superiority, the only difference is that Nazis believe in superiority by "race" ("Aryan race"), while in exceptionalism, you believe in superiority of "culture", for the most part "democracy" and similar feel good nonsense.

Are you saying that neither you nor the Russian nationalists feel exceptional? And didn't Putin write articles and make speeches about how Russia and Ukraine should join because of their shared ethnic identity?

Now, it would be hard for average American or European to say "yup, I live in corrupt country where evil people are on the power"

Apparently, you've never talked to average Americans. People say that sort of thing all the time. But that's a different discussion.

they have been killed for 8+ years by Nazis for only one reason = because they are Russians,

To the limited extent this is true, it's primarily because of Russia's own meddling in Ukraine that they stoked these divisions. And then tried to play them up, for their own advantage.

it is exact same reason why OpenBLAS is deciding to drop Elbrus CPU support, only one reason = It's Russian.

It's not, but I know you care more about narrative than facts.

Same reason why Huawei is banned in the US = It's Chinese

It's only banned from government use. Someone could legally import and use a Huawei phone. A private company can even buy Huawei equipment. Furthermore, there are plenty of Chinese brands than aren't banned in the US.

With that said, I don't agree with most of Trump's measures, on the trade war. He overplayed his hand and shunned our allies, but then he never was much good at business.

That is the main reason why Russians are so careful to have as little civilians killed,

Quite the opposite. The Russians have been shelling and bombing mostly civilian targets, failing to honor humanitarian corridors, and even perpetrating massacres. The evidence on all of these points is quite clear, though RT isn't going to tell you about it.

mainly US will profit in this conflict,

Not really. It's increasing fuel prices, and that works its way through the rest of the economy. As you pointed out, inflation is already a big enough problem. We really didn't need prices to rise yet further.

US will sell weapons

The weapons are privately produced and purchased by the US government and NATO allies. So, it's true that the defense industry is profiting from this. However, the defense sector is a very small part of the overall economy. Any influence they have wouldn't be enough to sway policy makers into the actions they took.

Try as you might, you really can't blame Putin's invasion of Ukraine on the US. That war is the fault of Putin, not anyone else.