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OpenBLAS Deciding Whether To Drop Support For Russia's Elbrus CPUs

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  • Originally posted by leipero View Post
    The reality of the matter is, no one ever did forbid to Albanians to speak their language, to cherish their culture, they had schools and universities, TVs, Radios etc. on their own language, parlament representatives = no problem, they were even offered wider autonomy, the only issue is, no separate state, that's all (they would de-facto have independent state by what was offered to them), there were no prosecutions against them like in Ukraine against Russians, to the contrary.
    By international Law, any people that is being oppressed, with its rights suppressed have the right to self determination.
    The key-points here, is genocide, suppression of language , culture, etc.. because if a population has not being "badly treated" then is has no right to carve a country inside other country.
    For example, there are tons of situations were several different people live together inside same country in peace, and its the same country for everybody.
    The International Law only provides mechanisms to protect those being oppressed.

    Usually that ends with a Autonomous Region( inside the country ), and only if the situation didn't resolve itself should be adopted the creation of a different state for that people to live in peace( Like DPR and LPR cases ).
    DPR and LPR were supposed to be autonomous regions inside Ukraine, but after 8 years it turned out that the nazis continued to exterminate that people, and so the only solution is the recognition of DPR and LPR as independent states...there are no other option left.

    Now what I don't understand is why Ukraine wants to exterminate them...they lost Crimea because of that...they should have learn something no?
    Because they continue to press on the problem, they ended up loosing Lugansk too..
    And we don't know, but for what I understand, this could very well lead to a bigger separation of other Ukrainian Regions too...because there are a lot of Russian speaker in the east.
    If someone don't stop de nazis asap, prepare yourself... because the people suffer only, until a point of no return...and then they will fight for auto-determination!

    I don't know much about the conflict in Serbia/ Kosovo, and how it unfolded..its something that I need to revise in the Future..
    I know that there were causalities there, but I don't know how many...
    I read somewhere that 4000 lost their lives, does you have any numbers about the death tool?

    I see,
    So if they had right to their Language/Culture/etc, what was their problem?
    Because they could be integrated in Serbia, as an autonomous Region?!I read about separatist movements, but by Law if no harm is done to a population, then it will need to be inside that country( Autonomous Region ).

    The recognition of a region as a independent state, can only happen, as a last resort( if that population is not accepted in a Autonomous region inside the in Donbass case).

    Does you know that Ukrainian nazis passed a Law in the parliament(RADA) saying that Ukrainian Ethnic Russians were considered as "biological waste"???
    crazy no???


    • tuxd3v Well, that's right definition as far as I know for self-determination. Why they want to exterminate them, well, they are Nazis that's why.

      Kosovo is a long story, short version of it is "It's complicated", no one is in delusion that there were no mistakes on Serbian side for it, but, Kosovo has been autonomous region for 60+ years, it never stopped being that, not a single decent person (being Albanian or Serbian or whatever) will tell you that their culture, language, education, health care etc. were the problem, it was poorer part of the country, and it was lifted out of poverty by whole Ex-YU, not only Serbia (but mostly Serbia to be fair). The problem was that Albanians had far better life in Kosovo than in Albania, especially during communist regime in Albania (that was sanctioned by other countries etc.), when 90's hit, they didn't live as they used to, but no one did, that was the reality of sanctions against country involved in ethnic conflicts, so everyone did suffer with lower life standard. With lower standard of living, comes radicalization, and old separatist ideas do spread, and that leads us towards what was their problem, their (separatists, not all Albanians) problem was that they got used to live a relatively good life, and life became hard, logical solution for them was to be separated (look how it turned out now..., Kosovo is currently a black hole of Europe..., not because Albanians per-se, but because US/EU installed literal terrorists as puppet regime who don't give a single F about Albanian people).
      AFAIK there were much more victims of "KLA" than 4000, even NATO did a good job on killing Albanians (supposedly their "ally" - read about bombing of Albanian refugees), but I don't have numbers separated by ethnicity to be fair, a lot of civilians (Albanian, Serbian and others) were killed by "KLA" terrorists (and yes, even US considered/listed them as an terrorist organization till 1998 when they decided to use them to "spread democracy").

      I don't know about those laws, but I do know they had discriminatory laws against Russians and Russian speaking population and that such a "great democracy" banned any media and so on since 2014. If one considers Kosovo as an "country", Ukraine would even beat them, and not by a small margin either in terms of corruption and lack of rights. So yes, I know Ukraine was and still is the most corrupt country in Europe by far.


      • Originally posted by coder View Post
        You're missing the point. The point was that you presumed to be wronged, and the only question you pose is whether the injury was willful. That's a pretty good way to poison any exchange.
        Again, I'm stating that I'm a victim of any kind. The fact that someone is being an arse and not arguing in good faith does not make the people they're arguing with them into victims. Questioning if your opponent is arguing in good faith or not is an attack, not a defense. You could even argue that it's an insult. On the other hand calling yourself a victim is simply a defense and that's not what I'm doing.

        It's not, though. Elbrus was created for Russian government and military applications, many of which require functionality of a package like OpenBLAS. You can be virtually assured that any effort to support OpenBLAS on these CPUs is providing some benefit to military and defense applications. It's almost unthinkable they wouldn't use OpenBLAS on it, at some point.
        You clearly don't seem to understand what the Basic Linear Algebra Subprograms actually are because they have "military applications" much the same way a pencil or a pocket calculator have. Do you even know what linear algebra is and what it's actually used for? Just like the library itself, it's usage on the ELBRUS ISA is similarly academic in nature. We're talking about something created by and for scientific research here. Running on an ISA created to reduce Russia's dependence on foreign technology doesn't cause a sudden and massive change in what it can do. Specially not when as an ISA it's basically a huge failure.

        It's almost like you're trying to use analogies to distract from the actual facts, which really aren't so hard to understand.
        I keep using analogies to try and explain things. Things you're repeatedly failing to understand like the "military applications" of a set of programs made by and for scientific researchers in areas like fluid dynamics.

        It should be obvious that nobody is using it for any serious science. Its performance is too poor for that. You're just seizing on the excuse that because it can be used for non-military/government purposes, that we shouldn't treat it as a piece of military technology. That's actually the opposite of how "dual-use" technologies are typically regarded.
        No, being a linear algebra library made by and for researchers in the world of scientific compute (which is where I wrote my master's thesis BTW) it's "military" applications are very much theoretical in nature. Technically yes, you can use it for assisting in some design work of new military hardware like jets, but like you admit, the performance of the ISA isn't up to the task. Those are going to be running on x86 anyway and they're probably going to use pirated copies of Dassault Solidworks instead, a piece of software made specifically for designing jets and similar systems.

        L_O_L. Another whopper.
        Maybe if you don't understand what OpenBLAS actually is and what it's used for... It's like I'm trying to argue with a flat earther and trying to explain why you can't see the curvature of the earth from ground level or various "irregularities" caused by light being refracted by the earth's atmosphere.

        I was trying to focus on a very real and concrete example. However, if you'd rather move back into the realm of the hypothetical, then what I'd say is that I could understand maybe a French OSS project maintainer having refused to accept patches to support some DARPA-funded project, during the 2003 Iraq war. To me, that would be analogous.
        An example being hypothetical doesn't make it any less right than a scientific "theory" only like gravity, climate change or germ theory being a "theory". You should probably stop and think for a moment when your thinking is literally the same as that of flat earthers, climate change denier and anti-vaxxers.

        You can't seem to see any slope that's not slippery. If and when something is cancelled that shouldn't be, that is when to make your stand.
        The fact that I use examples of things that were a series of progressive escalations into something truly awful doesn't mean I think literally everything is the start of one. What history teaches us is that once the ball really gets rolling there isn't much you can do to stop it and the only way to stop it is to nip it at the bud. To again use an over-used example; once the kristallnacht happened, there really wasn't anything anyone could do to stop the momentum that would lead to the truly awful things that were to begin happening in a few years time.

        You're trying to argue as if the worst-case is the rule, not the exception. This is never a good argument.
        Rule? I'm just talking about what I'm afraid of what it's going to eventually escalate into under the current political climate. One that I'd describe as one of "neo-McCarthyism".

        If we'd treat everything according to its worst-case outcome, we wouldn't drive cars, ride bicycles, or even climb ladders.
        Basic activities like that really don't work as analogies when it's about taking offensive action. A better analogy would be physical humiliation and normalizing its use. In this analogy my concern is that it's going to escalate and start to be used on people who don't deserve it for invalid reasons.

        Huh? I just said I can understand not wanting to accept a patch for that CPU. It provides a nonzero benefit. Not massive, but then providing aid in lots of small ways can add up to something nontrivial. How is that "total war"?
        Have you watched the regular news anytime recently? Russia has been hit with massive and very substantial sanctions of a kind that's never been seen before. Inconveniencing them over something whose military usage can be described as theoretical at best hasn't happened in isolation. Ranging from the substantial to the insubstantial like this makes for a pretty total non-military offensive on Russia.

        Most of the developed world is doing basically everything short of things that would trigger World War 3. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz is even explicitly talking about avoiding escalation that would lead to it.

        No, you're not.
        Again, you don't seem to understand what BLAS is and what it's used for. I really do recommend that you take a moment to look up what it is and what it's used for.

        Yes. And if you're an open source maintainer, not accepting a patch is where you can make a difference. Not a huge difference, but we're not talking about someone expressing their moral outrage by "liking" a post on social media, which would be a truly pointless, symbolic gesture.
        That's pretty much exactly what I keep trying to tell you. We're talking about a symbolic gesture that at best inconveniences a few people over something whose military applications are theoretical at best.

        You're alternately assuming the best and worst cases, on the basis of whether it helps your argument. That's pretty disingenuous thing to do.
        Simply pointing out, repeatedly, who are the actual users of OpenBLAS on ELBRUS and the limited effect on them is hardly a "best case" scenario. What it is, what it's used for and what it's capable of are known facts. Not theoretical points with best and worst cases. I keep trying to inform you and you keep pretending like these linear algebra functions are some kind of Pandora's box rather than listening to someone who has actually used it professionally or even looking it up yourself.
        Last edited by L_A_G; 26 April 2022, 10:53 AM.


        • Originally posted by coder View Post
          Something about this is going too far for me. I guess the problem I have with it is that you can't know all the harm that bug could do.
          Usually I'm really peaceful and I'd like to be in a world where nobody shoots rockets at other people but if you do and rocket rips your ass off, well it's not nice but maybe it should have happened because you were such a d**k, great when it detonates where it would cause no harm, but Russians would probably think about getting equipment that is deadly, they turned out to be killing invaders (I always thought they were, in fact, mostly, they shown that on many occasions), I know, used for sci or not, if it does something to stop the conflict even by limiting things (there is intel), and doing modification maybe when fighting stops, I wouldn't say that would be a worst idea.