OpenBLAS Deciding Whether To Drop Support For Russia's Elbrus CPUs

[leipero]

tuxd3v
I didn't follow on that woman, good to know. I know about biolabs etc. Ofc. Russians are telling the truth, those people who supported Nazis are evil or dumb, as I said before, I don't even need to know much of the situation to begin with, since I saw in person that propaganda machine ("western media") at work and as soon as they declare someone as bad, chances are 99% that it is a decent person/whatever in question.

I find it funny/ironic that Nazis are keeping US flag as their "idol", if I was American, I would feel both disgusted and angry to why actual Nazis are using flag of my country and idolize my country. The answer is clear ofc., they are supported for years by the USA, hence, they see it as "idol". Video in question:

https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/fsb_04:3?r=3Ld4N4NxQJNHhSf6ruFYGpDuZFDnNwyN

I know who is the "bad guys" here, it's Nazis from Ukraine (and other countries), EU "leaders" and Nazis in white house following good old British traditions..., there was never doubt about that. They wanted to re-create Srebrenica and Racak fake news in Ukraine even.

[coder]

What is there to explain? Either you don't seem to understand my point or are deliberately misunderstanding it.

Ah, I see. In either case, the invariant is that you're the victim. Got it.

Oh so saying that something that doesn't actually achieve anything substantial is a symbolic gesture is an "accusation pulled completely out of my ass". Here I thought this was just stating the obvious.

You seem to think a lone man in a dark alley is utterly defenseless, if he's not holding a gun.

Perhaps you're not aware, but there are laws against "aiding and abetting" criminals, which don't stipulate that the crime wouldn't have been possible without such support. In times of war, it's also typically disallowed to provide "aid and comfort" to the enemy. Again, it's not as if such support is essential to their offenses. These stand as testament to the fact that lots of small acts and contributions of assistance can sum to something meaningful.

The patches were not submitted as "a symbolic gesture", they were submitted for practical reasons. Hence, refusing to merge them is of practical significance, even if it's not absolutely crucial to the success of the use of OpenBLAS on the CPU.

Even if this wasn't the case, as long as you don't need to keep on the cutting edge, we're talking a few days a month for a single developer per big project.

The longer a fork remains separate, the more it tends to diverge from its parent. Beyond a certain point, it can become impractical to keep it in sync with the parent. I don't know that this is the case for OpenBLAS, but you can't be assured that it's not. And if they don't keep in sync with its parent, they forego fixes, features, and enhancements that are likely of some value.

this sets a precedent that if someone does or says something very unpopular, then you kick any technology, people or projects associated with that someone.

No, this isn't merely a Russian CPU. This is a CPU originated and primarily used for military and government purposes. Hence, supporting it provides support for operations conducted by that military and government.

I'll say right now: if there's some Russian project or developer with no government or military affiliation or objective, I would absolutely oppose them being discriminated in any way. I know lots of Russians and I know they don't all support Putin or his war. The last thing we want is to make them feel any more ostracized. More importantly, when something isn't about politics or policy, I don't want to politicize it and create needless division.

Say Trump or someone as crazy as him wins the 2024 election does something terrible.

I wouldn't do anything in support of "Truth Social", his social disinformation platform, no. He abused his authority in an attempt to subvert the democratic transfer of power. That crosses a red line from being merely someone with whom I have political disagreement to someone posing an existential threat to the Constitutional order of the US. And helping him in future political or media endeavors runs the likely risk of further imperiling our democracy.

outside of the legal world "How stuff like this has been dealt with before" (i.e precedent) is still the biggest influence on how something is deal with.

Outside the of the legal definition, it's merely an argument. It's an argument that rational people can make rational arguments against. Such as by pointing out how that precedent doesn't apply, because the the project in question isn't supporting an expansionist country, waging a hot war of choice against its neighbors.

You're obviously not going to be blind to the specifics of the case, but neither is the legal world.

I think you still don't really understand what legal precedent means, or how it's used. It merely governs the interpretation of law. Innocence and guilt are still based on evidence of breaching said law, as precedent would have it interpreted.

the rest of the world is more ad-hoc.

Ad hoc doesn't mean it's run by idiots. Some projects are, but they're likely to get run off the rails for one reason or another. You're acting as if we're all automatons, who are utterly incapable of rational and principled decision-making.

Well I wouldn't be worried if it wasn't for very real examples of what's happened to people like Stallman.

I get that you worry about cancel culture, but what you're not considering is the reporting bias. Every time something fits the narrative of cancel culture, it gets loudly trumpeted and echos around the internet. This creates a disproportionate picture of the world, in the same way people think there's a lot more violent crime than there really is. That's because such incidents get publicity precisely because they're exceptional and alarming.

That settles it. You are trying to conjure up a straw man and aren't trying to argue in good faith.

I addressed these points above, so I'll leave it at that. If you want an excuse disregard my posts, I'm sure you'll find one, whatever I say.

maybe your world view is so narrow that you think not wanting to hurl abuse at ordinary Russians is siding with Putin.

Not sure where you got that idea. Outside of the occasional heated argument, I really try not to hurl abuse at anyone.

Maybe you'd love it if you could go back in time and join senator McCarthy's red witch hunt, going after people as traitors and Soviet spies for merely holding left leaning views while employed by the U.S state department. Or maybe president Bush's "If you're not with us, you're with the terrorists" attack on people who opposed the invasion of Iraq is your idea of a cause to follow.

It seems as if your world is one of simplistic and artificial distinctions. Either something is crucial to a war or it's irrelevant and a mere "symbolic gesture". Either we can't refuse anything or we embrace "cancel culture". Either I can't deny support to belligerent, authoritarian regime or I'm a paranoid anti-communist.

You're painting the world in simplistic and extreme terms. I guess, if you can't see nuance and distinctions, then why would you imagine anyone else can?

[leipero]

tuxd3v I just finished reading some "western" articles, and one amazing one for Daily Mail, claiming that "Buca massacre" was done by 64th motorized brigade, and directly ordered by leader of it Omurbekov, who got a "blessing" of the Orthodox Church. Now, if there were no real people dead this would be funny, a muslim commander gets a blessing of the christian church, that was the first one, and even more ridiculous is that they (writers of the article) seem to live in, idk, 19th century?
TYT(urds) on YT are even "funnier", I wonder, how people, with intellectual capabilities of toilet cleaners (and I am sorry for insulting toilet cleaners by comparing them to those people) can finish universities and get such a "high role". Don't get me wrong, I actually believe that people with limited intellectual capabilities who work hard physical jobs are the MOST important on this planet, and that it is a crime for them to be ab(used) by low paychecks etc., in comparison to some other jobs, but you get my point.
It's scary stuff when such people of questionable intelligence and/or ethics are in place of influencing other people, the level of hate they are spreading is insane.

Anyway, here's some "Russian propaganda":

https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/bucha_timeline_botsman_06-yt:7?r=3Ld4N4NxQJNHhSf6ruFYGpDuZFDnNwyN

and quite logical explanation:

https://odysee.com/@LandDestroyer:8/why-ukraine%27s-bucha-massacre-story-isn%27t:0?r=3Ld4N4NxQJNHhSf6ruFYGpDuZFDnNwyN

The interesting part is, those articles claim "Russia censorship", but they are not saying that all of that censorship is an direct result of censorship done by "west", for example, odysee links are there because YT banned anyone who is saying something outside of established propaganda, I ofc. stopped using all google services, even before all of this, since google started "a war against fake news" when searching some events first 2-3 pages are flooded with sources that I know for a fact are at the very least questionable, they ofc. at the time rejected all accusations of them manipulating search results, but now, they are directly claiming they are doing so, even removing some websites (even official) from their search results.
I urge people to not use google services at all (yt, gmail etc.), they have proven they are tools of the US attempt to keep it's hegemony if there was any doubt before in someones mind. That is the only way to take away power they have. I'm pretty much done, the only part that was left is Android phone that I need to de-google, or change, for example, Huawei uses it's own services (since, surprise - surprise, it's banned by the US, and removed from google support), so that would be a good option, US people don't know for the most part, but Huawei phones are actually as good or superior to those "established brands".

[L_A_G]

Ah, I see. In either case, the invariant is that you're the victim. Got it.

Victim? The difference was between assuming if you're arguing in bad or good faith. Maybe this is some kind of Freudian slip on your part because no sane person considers themselves a "victim" of someone they're arguing with on the internet.

Perhaps you're not aware, but there are laws against "aiding and abetting" criminals, which don't stipulate that the crime wouldn't have been possible without such support. In times of war, it's also typically disallowed to provide "aid and comfort" to the enemy. Again, it's not as if such support is essential to their offenses. These stand as testament to the fact that lots of small acts and contributions of assistance can sum to something meaningful.

The charge of "aiding and abetting" is for things like hiding suspects, destroying evidence, misleading the police and otherwise actively hindering authorities in a criminal matter. In this case we're talking about not putting in an active effort to punitively punish an ISA for it's relation to the country that developed it. That's wholly different from refusing go out of your way to do something that isn't even more than a symbolic gesture.

To again use an analogy; This is like a sandwich shop owner refusing service to the relative of a criminal.

The longer a fork remains separate, the more it tends to diverge from its parent. Beyond a certain point, it can become impractical to keep it in sync with the parent. I don't know that this is the case for OpenBLAS, but you can't be assured that it's not. And if they don't keep in sync with its parent, they forego fixes, features, and enhancements that are likely of some value.

That may be true if it's a badly structured project, but something as big and long running as OpenBLAS is going to be structured with highly stable internal APIs so that big changes at different parts of the project don't negatively affect other parts of the project. If they make changes that cause the dropped ELBRUS code to become incompatible it'll also cause support for every other ISA to need to be made. With active developers those changes are going to be made anyway and the only difference is they'll be made in their own branch rather than mainline.

I'll say right now: if there's some Russian project or developer with no government or military affiliation or objective, I would absolutely oppose them being discriminated in any way. I know lots of Russians and I know they don't all support Putin or his war. The last thing we want is to make them feel any more ostracized. More importantly, when something isn't about politics or policy, I don't want to politicize it and create needless division.

That's kind of my point... ELBRUS may have been created by Russia in an effort to achieve some form of technological independence and it's used in plenty of perfectly benign applications. Particularly a with compute library meant for scientific applications and limited military uses it's very much kicking the dog simply because you don't like it's owner. You're free to kick all the dogs you like, but I'm still going to question the wisdom in that. We are after all talking about the equivalent of sanctioning a scientific journal.

I wouldn't do anything in support of "Truth Social", his social disinformation platform, no.

Well that's a pretty lame misdirection when I talked about what he, or someone as crazy as him, could do once back in the oval office. That is going to be a government action and precedent set here will be very relevant when it comes to how open source will respond if/when he has the U.S government do something like ban gay marriage federally or drop a nuclear bomb on Brussels.

Outside the of the legal definition, it's merely an argument. It's an argument that rational people can make rational arguments against. Such as by pointing out how that precedent doesn't apply, because the the project in question isn't supporting an expansionist country, waging a hot war of choice against its neighbors.

You're again missing that this is about starting a process that may eventually snowball into something genuinely destructive. Atheism didn't immediately tear itself apart nor did Weimar Germany slide into the holocaust overnight. This is about trying to nip something at the bud when it's still just an inconsequential gesture.

I think you still don't really understand what legal precedent means, or how it's used. It merely governs the interpretation of law. Innocence and guilt are still based on evidence of breaching said law, as precedent would have it interpreted.

Precedent may not determine if an act has happened, but it is very relevant to if that act constitutes a crime and how that crime is them to be punished. Further, outside of legal settings precedent also informs who is to be punished as well. So it's not just as dangerous as in a formal legal settings, it can be even more dangerous.

Ad hoc doesn't mean it's run by idiots. Some projects are, but they're likely to get run off the rails for one reason or another. You're acting as if we're all automatons, who are utterly incapable of rational and principled decision-making.

Quite the contrary, it's because precedent does affect people who aren't idiots. To work from experience, i.e precedent, is how perfectly rational people operate. It may not be what they rely on completely, but it absolutely informs their decision making to a high degree. Only idiots throw work on an entirely inconsistent case-by-case basis.

I get that you worry about cancel culture, but what you're not considering is the reporting bias. Every time something fits the narrative of cancel culture, it gets loudly trumpeted and echos around the internet. This creates a disproportionate picture of the world, in the same way people think there's a lot more violent crime than there really is. That's because such incidents get publicity precisely because they're exceptional and alarming.

You'd be right if it was just a few storms in a teacup here and there, but it's not possible to dismiss anymore with how many times and the extent to which the cases involving Stallman have gone. I could also talk about how badly out of proportion Linus' mailing list rants have been blown and the attempts to harm his career over them. Brendan Eich similarly got persona-non-grata'd even thou nobody had an ill word to say about him professionally.

Not sure where you got that idea. Outside of the occasional heated argument, I really try not to hurl abuse at anyone.

Well where did you get the idea that I think Putin should be left to do as he pleased? If you're going to misinterpret/misrepresent someone else, don't be surprised if they return the favor.

It seems as if your world is one of simplistic and artificial distinctions. Either something is crucial to a war or it's irrelevant and a mere "symbolic gesture". Either we can't refuse anything or we embrace "cancel culture". Either I can't deny support to belligerent, authoritarian regime or I'm a paranoid anti-communist.

You're painting the world in simplistic and extreme terms. I guess, if you can't see nuance and distinctions, then why would you imagine anyone else can?

Now you're just projecting. You're the one who's basically advocating for total war like you're Joseph Goebbels while I'm questioning the wisdom of the equivalent to sanctioning a scientific journal when it could set a precedent that can snowball into something genuinely destructive. To make a difference where you can make one. Not collect ego points while disregarding any unintended consequences and for what? To inconvenience some academic research institutions.

[tuxd3v]

Considering Stallman still receives crap for bad ideas he's had decades ago and is still intimately linked with everything developed by the FSF (GCC, glibc, etc.) it's legitimately the sort of business risks open source would legally have to write on their earnings reports if they were a publicly traded company.

Also, you completely missed the point. It's about creating a precedent of action based on association. Its just the first target of inconveniencing that'll be Russian, after that it'd be off to the races until eventually some real damage gets made when based on precedent spawned by this pushes major projects to disassociate from these core pieces of open source without any real alternative.

agree, we should not allow such precedence to exist, otherwise it will snowball.
We live each and each time more in a multicultural world that doesn't need this type of Racism( sorry but...I just called it what it is.. ).

In my opinion we should learn no embrace sharing with others, and opensource projects were a good way to do it.
Now if we start with racist ideologies, opensource will become toxic, in a few years no one wants it any more...

[Markospox]

I've got an idea, what if an updated, faulty version was pushed, if baddies update, rockets launch in unpredictable directions into air and ex after 20 meters or don't launch, if able to do that at all, it would be faulty only for that processor?

[tuxd3v]

[USER="92027"]
Anyway, here's some "Russian propaganda":

https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/bucha_timeline_botsman_06-yt:7?r=3Ld4N4NxQJNHhSf6ruFYGpDuZFDnNwyN

and quite logical explanation:

https://odysee.com/@LandDestroyer:8/why-ukraine%27s-bucha-massacre-story-isn%27t:0?r=3Ld4N4NxQJNHhSf6ruFYGpDuZFDnNwyN

Leipero, we already knew before it started what was going to happen... at least I did foresee it happening..
You just need to look and see, how they blocked all Russia Media first to then start a false narrative, you can start by that point.

In Syrian war, Russian media showed what was happening on the ground, and the Associated Press lost a lot of credibility to a lot of people worldwide.
In this situation, they would not let Russian media open( that would mean commit the same mistake twice..or-course when you start to block access to media, you are automatically a dictatorship ), so that people can judge by themselves what is happening on the ground..

But you think Bucha is bad...man.. the nazis are exterminating a lot of Russian speakers in Ukraine for 8 long years, Bucha is only one more place were it happened, its being happening in all Ukraine.
You know I am Christian Catholic(From roman empire),
And we have a say "Tell me with you usually go, and I will tell you who you are!"
So Western countries are siding with the Nazis, what should I call them( and in that I include my own country too..shame )?!

I didn't even need to see those videos, about Bucha, I already knew, because I am researching the Ukrainian conflict since 2014!
I know what's going on on the ground, I know when the nazis started to rise in Ukraine, when they overthrow the government and tried to assassinate the unique president Ukraine had since then democratically elected( President Yanukovich )...(Poroshenko and Zelinsky are puppet regimes installed after that).

And I don't get more shocked anymore, because I know whats going on since 2014 in Ukraine..
Yesterday they fired a Tochka-U Cluster bomb missile into Kramatorsk, in donbass, in a humanitarian corridor.
But they have fired in the last month at least 3 in donbass( they killed hundreds of people with those missiles already) people, the others were intercepted by Missile defense systems of donbass or of Russia..

Like I said, the sad part is that I don't get more shocked anymore, I only get more sad at each day, because this mass genocide started in 2014 and in 2022 the world failed to exterminate nazism in Ukraine, and the only country that is fighting it is Russia( that's why they are so heavily sanctioned).
They are alone in a fight, of the good against evil..

But let me tell you, that sooner or later good will prevail against evil, at least I do hope so, otherwise we are doomed as a specie!

[tuxd3v]

I've got an idea, what if an updated, faulty version was pushed, if baddies update, rockets launch in unpredictable directions into air and ex after 20 meters or don't launch, if able to do that at all, it would be faulty only for that processor?

Afaik Elbrus is not used in missile systems, they use another archs..
Elbrus is for commercial/scientific/academic use..
Its not even rad resistant to begin with..the same characteristics that are needed for Military are exactly the same for Space industry, and they are very tight.

Russia has a closed cycle of production for the military, they will never rely on imports, and its easy to understand why..

[leipero]

tuxd3v Yup, and that is a good saying. I personally do not subscribe to any religion, my family comes from Othodox and Catholic Christian (tho. I probably do have some Native American blood as well in traces) ones, but in every "common folk wisdom" you have examples of those wise sayings.

I know all of that, I had a (mis)fortune to see it myself, it really is a copy-paste of everything before (Syria, Iraq etc.), in Syria for example, whenever ISIS (ISIL or whatever the name is) terrorists were losing, there would be some false flag nonsense to blame Asad government.

I was reading comments under that creature Ursula whatever the f her name is tweet about EU sanctions etc., and man, there are far more US users commenting with "You are not doing anything" and so on, and I find it quite unusual, because what those "users" are suggesting is "send weapons, troops" or "close the sky" or something idiotic like that..., I was in shock ofc., first, if those people are real and not bots, how can anyone be so stupid, and second, that they are completely devoted of reality.

Another interesting observation from all of this is the fact that a lot of people are "disconnected from reality" in "digital age", and that's scary stuff as well on many levels. I don't know any suitable strategy to fight that situation, and that's even more scary.

Ofc. that all of it is very predictable, but to not be shocked, you must lose all of the "faith" in, not humanity, but basic intelligence of the human beings, it seems like we regressed a lot in that sphere. Good will win over evil, as long as you fight it.

[tuxd3v]

Yup, and that is a good saying. I personally do not subscribe to any religion, my family comes from Othodox and Catholic Christian (tho. I probably do have some Native American blood as well in traces) ones, but in every "common folk wisdom" you have examples of those wise sayings.

I know all of that, I had a (mis)fortune to see it myself, it really is a copy-paste of everything before (Syria, Iraq etc.), in Syria for example, whenever ISIS (ISIL or whatever the name is) terrorists were losing, there would be some false flag nonsense to blame Asad government.

Well, I am not a very religious person, I just take what is good, the rest..I don´t care much because religions can, and was in the past( and will continue to be used in less developed countries ), used to destroy other humans..
But still there are some good things here and there, I just take those for my orientation..

I followed the Syrian conflict from the beginning very closely( like the Ukrainian one.. ), and the Syrian conflict, for me is the most complex conflict after WWII, due to the amount of interests interfering in the region..
To speak frankly, I was amazed how Russia managed to stabilize the region,in around 4 years..
And for what I understood Russia was burning just ~3 million US/day( It seems a lot of money for us mundane humans..but for a War like that, it is really a low value.. )

Yes, its the same script for Syria, Ukraine, the difference is that in the case of Ukraine they needed to change it a bit, and now the "aggressor" for the US/EU is Russia, while in Syria it was his own president Assad..
Does you knew that, some part of the marauders and terrorists in Syrian flocked to Ukraine?
true some warlords were living in Ukraine at least in 2019, freely..!
There were a lot of Europeans fighting in Syria for money, for rapes, just for pleasure to kill, and so on( including from my country.. ).

But essentially there are a big difference between Syria and Ukraine..
In Syria US was investing a lot of money without no signs of return..
In Ukraine is different,
The US is sending weapons, so that they can kill each other, but its Ukraine that will pay the bill, do you see the difference?

Ukraine is what the US wanted the most:

War is Business, and Business is good!

Why is it good?
Because that people is the one that will suffer, the US as no "boots on the ground" which means less spending too, and they know that Ukraine will pay the bill because its the Ukrainian President that are asking for weapons
Its also working in relation to EU/Nato which is also deteriorating its relation with Moscow so that is good for the US.
The most problems Europe has, the better for the US.

Now the thing is... Ukraine right now doesn't even have food to give to its people, is very sad,
Since beginning of March alone Russia already sent 10000 tonnes of food to Ukraine, they are preparing more around 23000 tones to send there.
They started delivering food to Ukraine in Final of February, its very chaotic..

The most stupid thing that can happen to a Country...
You don't even had money for food to give to your own people, but you are asking for trillions do dollars of weapons...that just kill the population, and that same population some how will have to pay, even if they don't have nothing to eat..just because half of the country, thinks the other half needs to be exterminated..

I was reading comments under that creature Ursula whatever the f her name is tweet about EU sanctions etc., and man, there are far more US users commenting with "You are not doing anything" and so on, and I find it quite unusual, because what those "users" are suggesting is "send weapons, troops" or "close the sky" or something idiotic like that..., I was in shock ofc., first, if those people are real and not bots, how can anyone be so stupid, and second, that they are completely devoted of reality.

Another interesting observation from all of this is the fact that a lot of people are "disconnected from reality" in "digital age", and that's scary stuff as well on many levels. I don't know any suitable strategy to fight that situation, and that's even more scary.

The American people is messed up, they don't construct logical thinking from the beginning, its very primitive..you can´t expect nothing good from US..but you should already know that, by this time..
Second World war was when the US made something good, and it was because they felt threatened by the nazis( because until then , as you know, they were allied with them.. ).
After that they only created chaos and destruction were they went..
They never had 2 World Wars...normal people can and should learn from mistakes, but stupid people will commit those same mistakes again, and again, and never learn from it..

Go and ask to EU how many tonnes of food they have sent, how many hospital help they sent...you will be shocked.
They send weapons, EU is stupidly following the same "american way of doing business"..
Also EU failed in big,
Because they( France/Germany ), were obligated to force Ukraine to implement the Minsk Agreements, and they instead opted for not doing so.
Basically the War in Ukraine was in the hands of EU all this time, and EU didn't cared less, the US supported war since beginning with NATO.

Well, I don't think that is the Digital era that is affecting the people...
What I think is that values are passed from father to son, along all generations..there are no other way..
When you have a break in this chain, because families are not anymore "traditional" or conservative, your children's will grow up like animals only( no Humanity there ), without acquiring the real values of a human being..
Any parents have the obligation to teach humanity to its children's, but nowadays only a small portions of this parents do it..
Now in a World corrupt full of fake mass media, bombarding people all the time with fake things, the most weak get distracted from reality..and if they have not the basic tools of a human being, that is catastrophic..

I don't even thing you have the obligation to teach humanity to adults...it will work only in a very small sample of people( the smart or relatively interested in the subject )..
Humanity is learnt when you are a kid, when you are growing up.. when you are already an adult person..majority of time its already too late!
The parents of that person are the ones that have the obligation to teach its children's..

Good will win over evil, as long as you fight it.

true, and as long as you continue win it..!