Intel Core i5 12600K / Core i9 12900K "Alder Lake" Linux Performance

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  • Archestratus
    replied
    Yump wrote:

    "For the sorts of tasks you describe using your computer for (web browsing, email, printing), CPU generation will make very little difference to noise, because those are very low power workloads. The only exception is internet video, which can require a moderate amount of power to decode, if the CPU has to do it. For that reason, I would expect the 11th generation to be somewhat quieter, because it has hardware acceleration for AV1 video, which is used on YouTube and will be more widely adopted in the future."


    Yump.

    I have not yet figured out how to run quoted material through the board with the shaded blue background - so quoting is a bit makeshift for now.

    On to content -

    Thank you! I did not know. I was just going by TDP and reputation of 11th generation CPUs running particularly hot. I have never actually been near one.

    So - TDP is just when things are revved up? Not hotter idling and running non-demanding tasks?

    In that case - I might as well request the 11th generation CPU - especially considering what you are writing of "hardware acceleration for AV1 video" in regards to YouTube. All news to me. I probably do access YouTube daily or so.

    You wrote further:

    "Noise in your sort of application depends almost entirely on the design of the cooling system (how big the CPU heatsink is, how the fan control is set up, how well ventilated the case is, etc.). If you were building it yourself, you could have a computer that would handle those tasks without any moving parts, by choosing an over-sized power supply with low-load-fan-stop, and similarly configuring the fan control to stop the fans below some moderate temperature. At that point, the only noise would be "coil whine", which is high-pitched squealing sounds produced by inductors and capacitors on the circuit boards. Unfortunately, coil whine is pretty much never mentioned in spec sheets, and if anyone is trying to minimize it, they aren't saying so publicly. How whiny any particular board is also has pretty big manufacturing variation, so you can't rely on other people's reports for the same motherboard."

    My preference would be to upgrade an old rig - with oversized heatsink and fan running low and slow - I prefer a big downblowing fan - cool the whole board - CPU possibly running undervolted. I have a real nice Microtel Walmart Lindows beige box - the one with the zoomin' 800MHz Via C3 processor - looking for a little bit of an upgrade. But my kind benefactor prefers to go through Dell - we all have our reasons for what we do - so a home build is just not going to happen.

    I used to follow SilentPCReview - Mike Chen's wonderful web reviews and community - and I did put what I learned from that site to good use. But Mike moved on. The site lost it's soul. Mike, we miss you, wherever you have gone.

    Ave atque vale.

    In the past, as per SilentPCReview, Dells have been notorious for being completely resistant to aftermarket SilentPC modification - everything fixed and proprietary, both with nonstandard physical construction and nonstandard wiring - so I want to try to get this as right as I can out of the gate without having to try to modify a Dell. The integrated CPU/GPU is a win with the absence of a separate GPU card and likely audible GPU cooling fan. The SSD should get rid of some spinning hard drive noise. That leaves only the the CPU HSF, the power supply fan and any case fans. I have never experienced a bothersome coil whine situation - wish me luck. If I do have to quiet it down, on a Dell the motherboard BIOS will likely be locked down to prevent undervolting. Heat-sink fan modification may be impossible, as well, due to proprietary wiring and Motherboard construction - I dunno. So the only tactic I would have left to quiet the thing if needed - besides an ungainly sound reduction box - might end up being to put the CPU, RAM, SSD and floppy drive into another box and abandon the rest of the Proprietary Dell. All I would need would be a ~$100 motherboard (guessing) - and I may have to upgrade a ~2008 (300-350 Watt?) Corsair Power Supply, I do not know.

    It would be best, instead, if I just obtain a relatively quiet box to start with and not have to go down the aftermarket quieting path at all.

    Eleventh generation i5 is beginning to look like my sweet spot.

    Any idea if current Dells will take aftermarket HSFs? I can't seem to find anything with a web search - so it seems unlikely.

    Thanks, again -

    Archestratus

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  • yump
    replied
    Originally posted by sophisticles View Post

    You probably know this better than I, but there is no such thing as a single-threaded application, including benchmarks.
    For one thing, I have a single-threaded laptop on the shelf behind me.

    For another thing, those threads you mentioned are almost completely idle while the benchmark is running, and there's no reason for the kernel to schedule them on the same core as the benchmark worker thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • yump
    replied
    Originally posted by Archestratus View Post
    yump,

    Thank you! I have been torturing myself with the choice between the hotter/louder eleventh generation CPUs with the better integrated GPU vs. the quieter, less capable tenth generation CPU/GPU integrated solution. Quiet is primo for me - I'll probably opt for quiet over performance.

    Then again . . . YouTube videos are of interest . . .

    Next year for an appropriate 12th generation / Ubuntu solution is farther out than I had hoped. I think will pull the trigger sooner.

    Abysmally slow? Abysmally slow? Quiet - it knows what you are saying.

    This computer is not slow, as such. I just think of it as being very - thoughtful.

    I just looked at the link that you were kind enough to post - it's making sense. Any idea of the noise level on an eleventh generation vs. a tenth? I just have my reading and conjecture - no direct experience.
    For the sorts of tasks you describe using your computer for (web browsing, email, printing), CPU generation will make very little difference to noise, because those are very low power workloads. The only exception is internet video, which can require a moderate amount of power to decode, if the CPU has to do it. For that reason, I would expect the 11th generation to be somewhat quieter, because it has hardware acceleration for AV1 video, which is used on YouTube and will be more widely adopted in the future.

    Noise in your sort of application depends almost entirely on the design of the cooling system (how big the CPU heatsink is, how the fan control is set up, how well ventilated the case is, etc.). If you were building it yourself, you could have a computer that would handle those tasks without any moving parts, by choosing an over-sized power supply with low-load-fan-stop, and similarly configuring the fan control to stop the fans below some moderate temperature. At that point, the only noise would be "coil whine", which is high-pitched squealing sounds produced by inductors and capacitors on the circuit boards. Unfortunately, coil whine is pretty much never mentioned in spec sheets, and if anyone is trying to minimize it, they aren't saying so publicly. How whiny any particular board is also has pretty big manufacturing variation, so you can't rely on other people's reports for the same motherboard.

    Leave a comment:


  • sophisticles
    replied
    Originally posted by Laughing1 View Post
    Okay, what about Clear Linux distro? https://clearlinux.org/ It is optimized for Intel after all.
    No it's not, the only "optimization" is that it used the performance governor by default and the compile target is Skylake AVX-512.

    To run Clear on Alder Lake Michael will have to disable the E-cores, thereby enabling AVX-512. Don't know if his motherboard allows for that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Laughing1
    replied
    Alder Lake: Fedora 35 and the 12900k

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  • Laughing1
    replied
    Okay, what about Clear Linux distro? https://clearlinux.org/ It is optimized for Intel after all.

    Leave a comment:


  • sophisticles
    replied
    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
    At the risk of asking a dumb question, isn't this a single-thread performance comparison ? How is the number of cores/threads relevant ?
    You probably know this better than I, but there is no such thing as a single-threaded application, including benchmarks.

    There are always background tasks running and all GUI apps are multi-threaded to a certain extent. at a bare minimum there is at least one thread for I/O, one thread for the GUI and so on. If there isn't then the GUI will lock up and I/O operations will stall.

    Now granted the actual impact of having more cores is minimal in so-called single-threaded benchmarks, but I would think in the case of Alder Lake, if one could lock the I/O threads and the GUI drawing threads to the E-cores, that would give an advantage to the P-cores compared to Intel and AMD processors of equal "performance" cores that lack E-cores.
    Last edited by sophisticles; 05 November 2021, 11:20 PM.

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  • blackshard
    replied
    Originally posted by bridgman View Post

    At the risk of asking a dumb question, isn't this a single-thread performance comparison ? How is the number of cores/threads relevant ?

    The next page of the article you linked is probably more relevant - multi-core numbers against x86 parts designed to operate in a similar power range:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252...le-m1-tested/5

    The M1 ends up between a 15W x86 and a 35W x86 (AMD 4800U and 4900HS respectively) although the M1's FP numbers were actually better than the 35W part.
    True. Can't find back the article with the real-world benchmarks. There was a much better placement for the M1 against x86 cpus, in particular the memory bandwidth was pretty impressive. But I understand that without the article these statements can't be validated.

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  • smitty3268
    replied
    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
    At the risk of asking a dumb question, isn't this a single-thread performance comparison ? How is the number of cores/threads relevant ?
    Yes, the M1's single-core performance is very impressive but Alder Lake is in the same ballpark and not even Intel's chips require 250W on a single core.

    The M1 ends up between a 15W x86 and a 35W x86 (AMD 4800U and 4900HS respectively) although the M1's FP numbers were actually better than the 35W part.
    I believe the FP tests are highly bandwidth sensitive, and the M1 is known for having a lot of memory bandwidth and LPDDR5 which probably explains most of that score.

    Unfortunately i was never able to find anywhere that did a good job of estimating how much power the M1 actually uses and providing a good comparison against x86 laptop chips. Just about everything was just claiming it was better, without any numbers, or else comparing versus 5 year old Intel chips from previous Mac lineups.

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  • smitty3268
    replied
    Originally posted by numacross View Post
    The M1 Pro and Max do have Turbo for the big cores.
    Yep, depending on the definition of "turbo". They certainly do a lot less than x86 machines do.

    If I recall correctly, they can only hit their "max" speed if a single big core is running per 4-core complex.

    Once 2 of them are going, it drops by 100 or 200 Mhz, and then drops again when all 4 are busy.

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