Zhaoxin Preparing Linux Kernel Support For 7-Series Centaur CPUs

[the_scx]

Not having the iGPU drivers available upstream will be a big limiting factor if the goal is US tech independence. Sure, China can have its own boards, chipsets and processors. And they don't even need to be cutting edge; they just need to provide a level of performance that is good enough for most people to accept.

Isn't it just enough for desktop?
- 4K resolution support (3840x2160@30Hz)
- multiple displays support (3x 1920x1080@60Hz)
- VGA, HDMI 1.4, DP 1.2a and eDP 1.3 support
- Miracast support
- OpenGL 3.2 support
- OpenGL ES 2.0 support
- OpenCL 1.1 support
- VDPAU support
- VA-API support
- AVS, VC-1/WMV9, M-JPEG, VP8, H.264 and H.265 HEVC decoding support
- H.264 AVC and H.265 HEVC encoding support

https://i.imgur.com/vN9vNgp.png

https://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=12205314#post12205314

Of course, there are some issues:
- Although Zhaoxin proprietary drivers are included in Chinese distributions (e.g. UOS or NFS China), there are no repos, nor packages for "Western" Linux distros, such as Fedora or openSUSE.
- Support for hybrid GPU configurations requires a patched version of Mesa.
- Support for older GPUs is relatively quickly dropped: 19-series driver doesn't support Chrome 320 from the ZX-100(S) chipset, 21-series driver doesn't support Chrome 640/645 from the VX11(PH) chipset - in other words, the latest driver supports only ZX-D (2017) and ZX-E (2018) hardware.
- OpenGL support is outdated: no support for OGL 4.x at all.
- OpenGL ES support is outdated: no support for OGL ES 3.x at all.
- OpenCL support is outdated: no support for OCL 2.x at all.
- The standard driver package doesn't include stuff related to OpenCL. It requires an additional driver.
- No support for Vulkan at all.
- Although VDPAU and VA-API are supported, it still requires a modified version of MPlayer/SMPlayer to make use of video decoding acceleration.
- Video encoding for H.264/H.265 is limited to 1920x1080p50.
- 3D performance is comparable to the Chrome 640/645 GPU from 2012.

However, it shouldn't be a real problem in the target usage environment.

But if they still have to pair it with an AMD or Nvidia GPU just to produce a display for desktop computing then it really defeats the purpose.

You don't need AMD or NVIDIA GPU to just display desktop. And they already have plans for dGPU (~70W, 28 nm TSMC, DirectX 12 support/Direct3D 12_x feature level), if that's what you ask.

https://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=12361826#post12361826

https://i.ibb.co/xmgmqZr/zhaoxin-2020-07-08-11.png

This is a new generation that will also appear as iGPU in ZX-F SoC. All of their desktop iGPUs so far (C-320, C-860, C-960) are based on the Excalibur microarchitecture (this doesn't apply to their ARM SoCs - Elite GPU is based on S3G IP, but it is not Excalibur). In fact, they are close derivatives of Chrome 640/645 from VX11(PH):
- Chrome 640 (C-640) iGPU & Chrome 645 (C-645) iGPU from the VX11/VX11H/VX11PH chipset - Vendor Id: 1106 ("VIA Technologies, Inc."), Device Id: 3a01 ("VX11 Graphics [Chrome 645/640]")
- Chrome 320 (C-320) iGPU from the ZX-100S chipset - Vendor Id: 1d17 ("Zhaoxin"), Device Id: 3a02 ("ZX-100 C-320 GPU")
- Chrome 860 (C-860) iGPU from the ZX-D/KX-5000 (codename "WuDaoKou") SoC - Vendor Id: 1d17 ("Zhaoxin"), Device Id: 3a03 ("ZX-D C-860 GPU")
- Chrome 960 (C-960) iGPU from the ZX-E/KX-6000 (codename "LuJiaZui") SoC - Vendor Id: 1d17 ("Zhaoxin"), Device Id: 3a04 ("ZX-E C-960 GPU")

[Danielsan]

Only Intel is unable to manufacture CPU at 7nm but to fill their processors with all the exotic flaws are always on the front line... Congrats...

[onlyLinuxLuvUBack]

Isn't it just enough for desktop?
- 4K resolution support (3840x2160@30Hz)
- multiple displays support (3x 1920x1080@60Hz)
- VGA, HDMI 1.4, DP 1.2a and eDP 1.3 support
- Miracast support
- OpenGL 3.2 support
- OpenGL ES 2.0 support
- OpenCL 1.1 support
- VDPAU support
- VA-API support
- AVS, VC-1/WMV9, M-JPEG, VP8, H.264 and H.265 HEVC decoding support
- H.264 AVC and H.265 HEVC encoding support

https://i.imgur.com/vN9vNgp.png

https://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=12205314#post12205314

Of course, there are some issues:
- Although Zhaoxin proprietary drivers are included in Chinese distributions (e.g. UOS or NFS China), there are no repos, nor packages for "Western" Linux distros, such as Fedora or openSUSE.
- Support for hybrid GPU configurations requires a patched version of Mesa.
- Support for older GPUs is relatively quickly dropped: 19-series driver doesn't support Chrome 320 from the ZX-100(S) chipset, 21-series driver doesn't support Chrome 640/645 from the VX11(PH) chipset - in other words, the latest driver supports only ZX-D (2017) and ZX-E (2018) hardware.
- OpenGL support is outdated: no support for OGL 4.x at all.
- OpenGL ES support is outdated: no support for OGL ES 3.x at all.
- OpenCL support is outdated: no support for OCL 2.x at all.
- The standard driver package doesn't include stuff related to OpenCL. It requires an additional driver.
- No support for Vulkan at all.
- Although VDPAU and VA-API are supported, it still requires a modified version of MPlayer/SMPlayer to make use of video decoding acceleration.
- Video encoding for H.264/H.265 is limited to 1920x1080p50.
- 3D performance is comparable to the Chrome 640/645 GPU from 2012.

However, it shouldn't be a real problem in the target usage environment.


You don't need AMD or NVIDIA GPU to just display desktop. And they already have plans for dGPU (~70W, 28 nm TSMC, DirectX 12 support/Direct3D 12_x feature level), if that's what you ask.

https://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=12361826#post12361826

https://i.ibb.co/xmgmqZr/zhaoxin-2020-07-08-11.png

This is a new generation that will also appear as iGPU in ZX-F SoC. All of their desktop iGPUs so far (C-320, C-860, C-960) are based on the Excalibur microarchitecture (this doesn't apply to their ARM SoCs - Elite GPU is based on S3G IP, but it is not Excalibur). In fact, they are close derivatives of Chrome 640/645 from VX11(PH):
- Chrome 640 (C-640) iGPU & Chrome 645 (C-645) iGPU from the VX11/VX11H/VX11PH chipset - Vendor Id: 1106 ("VIA Technologies, Inc."), Device Id: 3a01 ("VX11 Graphics [Chrome 645/640]")
- Chrome 320 (C-320) iGPU from the ZX-100S chipset - Vendor Id: 1d17 ("Zhaoxin"), Device Id: 3a02 ("ZX-100 C-320 GPU")
- Chrome 860 (C-860) iGPU from the ZX-D/KX-5000 (codename "WuDaoKou") SoC - Vendor Id: 1d17 ("Zhaoxin"), Device Id: 3a03 ("ZX-D C-860 GPU")
- Chrome 960 (C-960) iGPU from the ZX-E/KX-6000 (codename "LuJiaZui") SoC - Vendor Id: 1d17 ("Zhaoxin"), Device Id: 3a04 ("ZX-E C-960 GPU")

It was ... illogical ... not to support vulkan.

- live long and support vulkan !

[the_scx]

It was ... illogical ... not to support vulkan.

- live long and support vulkan !

Excalibur was released in 2012. At this time, we didn't have Vulkan or Mantle API at all!

https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/x-org-drm/1026981-it-s-still-going-to-be-tough-getting-the-openchrome-via-kms-driver-in-the-linux-kernel?p=1027179#post1027179

Ivy Bridge (2012) also doesn't support Vulkan. I strongly believe that they both lack of hardware capabilities to support such an API.

As I said, all of Zhaoxin desktop iGPUs (C-320, C-860, C-960) are close derivatives of Chrome 640/645 (C-640/C-645) from VX11(PH). There are only slight changes, just like between GM10x and GM20x (Maxwell first and second generation). The architecture itself has not changed much. Here is the list of changes:
- Added support for DirectX 11.1 (instead of just 11.0)
- Added support for DirectX 11 via DirectX 12 API (Shader Model 5.1)
- Updated support for HDCP: 2.2/Miracast
- Updated support for video interfaces: DisplayPort (1.2a), eDP (1.3), HDMI (1.4b, 2.0), VGA
- Added support for 4K: Maximum resolution increased from 2560x1600 to 3840x2160
- Updated Chromotion (C-M) video engine: Added support for H.265 hardware decoding and encoding
- Updated and refactored drivers
And that's it.

https://archive.is/VJy8t

However, ZX-F should finally introduce a new GPU microarchitecture. It is actually mentioned on their roadmap.

[ssokolow]

Only Intel is unable to manufacture CPU at 7nm but to fill their processors with all the exotic flaws are always on the front line... Congrats...

Isn't Intel the only CPU manufacturer that still runs their own fab?

(Smart if you can keep a monopoly on market-leading manufacturing... an anchor around your neck if you can't.)

[Sonadow]

Of course, there are some issues:
- Although Zhaoxin proprietary drivers are included in Chinese distributions (e.g. UOS or NFS China), there are no repos, nor packages for "Western" Linux distros, such as Fedora or openSUSE.
- Support for hybrid GPU configurations requires a patched version of Mesa.
- Support for older GPUs is relatively quickly dropped: 19-series driver doesn't support Chrome 320 from the ZX-100(S) chipset, 21-series driver doesn't support Chrome 640/645 from the VX11(PH) chipset - in other words, the latest driver supports only ZX-D (2017) and ZX-E (2018) hardware.
- OpenGL support is outdated: no support for OGL 4.x at all.
- OpenGL ES support is outdated: no support for OGL ES 3.x at all.
- OpenCL support is outdated: no support for OCL 2.x at all.
- The standard driver package doesn't include stuff related to OpenCL. It requires an additional driver.
- No support for Vulkan at all.
- Although VDPAU and VA-API are supported, it still requires a modified version of MPlayer/SMPlayer to make use of video decoding acceleration.
- Video encoding for H.264/H.265 is limited to 1920x1080p50.
- 3D performance is comparable to the Chrome 640/645 GPU from 2012.

However, it shouldn't be a real problem in the target usage environment.

That's the problem with proprietary drivers; they are tied to specific versions of a distribution, kernel, Mesa or libGLVND. I usually build my own kernel, Mesa, libdrm and libGLVND from the latest upstream sources.

If the Zhaoxin drivers are not opensourced, I cannot use them. Let's say, for example, I use Kylin 20.04 or Deepin 20, but instead of the distribution-bundled libraries and kernel I build the latest versions of Mesa, libdrm and libGLVND from source, along with kernel 5.9 RC4.

The proprietary debs provided by Zhaoxin makes it impossible for me to get a working desktop on the iGPU, and I will need to get a dGPU from AMD or Nvidia because Zhaoxin's debs will not work on this frankensystem. Please don't tell me to use software GL rendering on Wayland; it's slow to the point of being completely unusable.

At least with an AMD or Nvidia card, I am assured that building libdrm will give me the required libdrm_{nouveau,intel,amdgpu,radeon}.so libraries needed to get hardware acceleration working, which is a key requirement for Wayland. Last I checked, there is still no libdrm_zhaoxin.so produced by upstream libdrm, and no option within upstream Mesa to build a Zhaoxin driver.

If there are any Zhaoxin engineers or developers here, I have a question: what is the obstacle here in getting the required stuff mainlined in upstream Mesa and libdrm?

[Alexmitter]

They are definitely not just modified VIA CPUs. They are much more.

https://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=12148644#post12148644

https://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=12231741#post12231741

As you can see, ZX-D (KX-5000) is a full SoC. It is in fact a major redesign. However, CPU cores are still based on the Centaur design. Here we can expect a more serious change with ZX-F. While ZX-D and ZX-E are close to CNR (ZX-C is de facto CNR), ZX-F will be based on CNS.

Thank you for your clarification.

[the_scx]

That's the problem with proprietary drivers; they are tied to specific versions of a distribution, kernel, Mesa or libGLVND.

These drivers are not tied to a specific version of kernel. In fact, various kernels are supported, including, but not limited to: 2.5.41, 2.6.24, 2.6.25, 2.6.26, 2.6.32, 2.6.35, 2.6.38, 2.6.39, 3.0.0, 3.4.6, 3.6.0, 3.10.0, 3.10.52, 3.12.0, 3.18.0, 3.19.0, 3.5.0, 3.15.0, 4.0.0, 4.3.0, 4.4.131, 4.6.0, 4.7.0, 4.9.0, 4.10.0, 4.11.0, 4.12.0, 4.14.0, 4.15.0, 4.17.0, 4.19.0, 4.3.0, 4.4.0, 4.4.168, 4.5.0, 4.6.0, 4.8.0, 4.9.0, 4.10.0, 4.11.0, 4.12.0, 4.13.0, 4.14.0, 4.15.0, 4.17.0, 4.18.0, 4.20.0, 5.0.0, 5.4.0, 5.1.0, 5.2.0, 5.4.0. There is an open source glue around the binary blob, just like in the proprietary NVIDIA drivers.

https://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=12205314#post12205314

https://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=12331602#post12331602

I usually build my own kernel, Mesa, libdrm and libGLVND from the latest upstream sources.

Nobody will let you do this on Chinese government computers!

If the Zhaoxin drivers are not opensourced, I cannot use them. Let's say, for example, I use Kylin 20.04 or Deepin 20, but instead of the distribution-bundled libraries and kernel I build the latest versions of Mesa, libdrm and libGLVND from source, along with kernel 5.9 RC4.

Please give me your administrative unit name, address and Chinese phone number. Without this data, you can't even download a trail version of Kylin.

http://www.kylinos.cn/support/trial.html?pid=2

http://www.kylinos.cn/support/trial.html?pid=11

http://www.kylinos.cn/support/trial.html?pid=12

So, what's your job title, comrade?

The proprietary debs provided by Zhaoxin makes it impossible for me to get a working desktop on the iGPU, and I will need to get a dGPU from AMD or Nvidia because Zhaoxin's debs will not work on this frankensystem.

I think I know what your problem is. This is a typical PEBKAC.

http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/98may/uf980506.gif

Please don't tell me to use software GL rendering on Wayland; it's slow to the point of being completely unusable.

No, I'll tell you to buy RISC-V hardware, because only this one will give you "true freedom"!
But seriously, no one there cares about some IT hipsters. You probably wouldn't buy their hardware anyway, because it's relatively expensive. For people like you, there is Intel with IME (Intel Management Engine) or AMD with PSE (Platform Security Processor).

The main target of Zhaoxin's chips are party and government agencies and state enterprises and institutions. It is not limited to public administration. China are trying to put their own hardware everywhere they can, including:
- scientific research, culture and education units (e.g. public school, college, university, library),
- health and medical institutions (e.g. hospital, stomatology treatment center, health clinical center, cancer institute)
- party, government, military and organizations (e.g. government office, television administration, prosecutor's office, prison)
- IT/R&D industry units (e.g. Lenovo)
- other state-owned enterprises and institutions (e.g. foreign investment promotion center, financial center, hydrological station)

In fact, it is not limited to Zhaoxin hardware. There are also other solutions: CAS/ICT (Godson/Loongson), Haiguang/HMC (Hygon Dhyana), HiSilicon (Kunpeng), Jiangnan Computing Lab (Shenwei/Sunway), Tianjin Phytium (FeiTeng), etc. However, Zhaoxin hardware is the most wanted solution for desktop computers.

At least with an AMD or Nvidia card, I am assured that building libdrm will give me the required libdrm_{nouveau,intel,amdgpu,radeon}.so libraries needed to get hardware acceleration working, which is a key requirement for Wayland.

There should be a permanent ban for recommending the Nouveau driver. This driver is just a nightmare, and I am not talking about poor performance, but stability and quality (graphics artefacts).
As for Wayland, no one gives a shit about it. At the moment, it causes more problems than it solves:

https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/wayland-display-server/1098817-prolific-red-hat-developer-starts-up-wayland-itches-project?p=1099204#post1099204

Anyway, Chinese are not interested in this at all.

Last I checked, there is still no libdrm_zhaoxin.so produced by upstream libdrm, and no option within upstream Mesa to build a Zhaoxin driver.

Mesa provides literally zero support for Destination or Excalibur GPUs. There is the Openchrome driver that support Unichrome (up to Unichrome Pro II, with 3D acceleration) and Chrome9 graphics (up to Chrome9 HD, without 3D acceleration). Unichrome is basically an updated ProSavage, which is hybrid Savage 4/Savage 2000 (Savage 4 3D core and Savage 2000 2D functionality). Chrome9, on the other hand, is a derivative of DeltaChrome (Columbia microarchitecture). As you can see, there is no open source drivers for Zhaoxin GPUs at all.
However, it is possible to build kernel modules: "zx.ko" and "zx_core.ko" (used in the 19-series driver). Actually, these modules can be built automatically by dkms.

If there are any Zhaoxin engineers or developers here, I have a question: what is the obstacle here in getting the required stuff mainlined in upstream Mesa and libdrm?

Do you really think that Chinese government engineers visit this portal?

I will tell you what is the problem:
- lack of stable API/ABI
- completely different architecture of the current drivers (it takes years to create a new driver)
- software fascism in Linux world
BTW: While updating closed drivers is not a problem, in the case of Mesa it is not that simple. Typically, the user ends up with the driver that was delivered on release. Mesa has serious problems when it comes to supporting older kernels, X.Org releases and DDX drivers. What's worse, this is barely documented. Oh, I almost forgot: there is one more problem: it often requires new versions of GCC that you won't found in older distributions (at least Ubuntu-based).
For these reasons, you are unlikely to experience the latest Mesa drivers in Ubuntu 16.04, which is still supported by Zhaoxin.

[Sonadow]

These drivers are not tied to a specific version of kernel. In fact, various kernels are supported, including, but not limited to: 2.5.41, 2.6.24, 2.6.25, 2.6.26, 2.6.32, 2.6.35, 2.6.38, 2.6.39, 3.0.0, 3.4.6, 3.6.0, 3.10.0, 3.10.52, 3.12.0, 3.18.0, 3.19.0, 3.5.0, 3.15.0, 4.0.0, 4.3.0, 4.4.131, 4.6.0, 4.7.0, 4.9.0, 4.10.0, 4.11.0, 4.12.0, 4.14.0, 4.15.0, 4.17.0, 4.19.0, 4.3.0, 4.4.0, 4.4.168, 4.5.0, 4.6.0, 4.8.0, 4.9.0, 4.10.0, 4.11.0, 4.12.0, 4.13.0, 4.14.0, 4.15.0, 4.17.0, 4.18.0, 4.20.0, 5.0.0, 5.4.0, 5.1.0, 5.2.0, 5.4.0. There is an open source glue around the binary blob, just like in the proprietary NVIDIA drivers.
https://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbull...4#post12205314
https://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbull...2#post12331602

But in NVidia's case, their driver is delivered as a generic .run package that is built and installed on the spot (unless you use the prebuilt blobs provided by the distribution).

In the download page you linked, I see a bunch of downloads for specific versions of Ubuntu, UOS and Deepin, but no generic package. Also, there is no compatibility with Ubuntu 20.04 or Deepin 20; support for these distributions is limited to Ubuntu 18.04 and Deepin 15. Does this not mean that Zhaoxin users on 20.04 and Deepen 20 won't have any GPU drivers for their computers?

Nobody will let you do this on Chinese government computers!
...
The main target of Zhaoxin's chips are party and government agencies and state enterprises and institutions. It is not limited to public administration. China are trying to put their own hardware everywhere they can, including:
- scientific research, culture and education units (e.g. public school, college, university, library),
- health and medical institutions (e.g. hospital, stomatology treatment center, health clinical center, cancer institute)
- party, government, military and organizations (e.g. government office, television administration, prosecutor's office, prison)
- IT/R&D industry units (e.g. Lenovo)
- other state-owned enterprises and institutions (e.g. foreign investment promotion center, financial center, hydrological station)

In fact, it is not limited to Zhaoxin hardware. There are also other solutions: CAS/ICT (Godson/Loongson), Haiguang/HMC (Hygon Dhyana), HiSilicon (Kunpeng), Jiangnan Computing Lab (Shenwei/Sunway), Tianjin Phytium (FeiTeng), etc. However, Zhaoxin hardware is the most wanted solution for desktop computers.

In other words, Zhaoxin hardware is not intended for the everyday civilian's home-use computing? If this is what you mean, then it makes perfect sense, since government computers will obviously have very strict compliance policies on upgrade cycles, authorized software and hardware..

Please give me your administrative unit name, address and Chinese phone number. Without this data, you can't even download a trail version of Kylin.

http://www.kylinos.cn/support/trial.html?pid=2

http://www.kylinos.cn/support/trial.html?pid=11

http://www.kylinos.cn/support/trial.html?pid=12

So, what's your job title, comrade?

My bad, I mean Ubuntu Kylin. I didn't even know the original Kylin still existed.

I think I know what your problem is. This is a typical PEBKAC.
http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons...y/uf980506.gif

I don't think so. I still stand by my original statement; if I have modified my Ubuntu or Deepin installation with the latest kernel, lindrm, libglvnd and Mesa from the upstream sources, I am quite certain that the blobs provided by Zhaoxin will not work.

No, I'll tell you to buy RISC-V hardware, because only this one will give you "true freedom"!

RISC-V is a lost cause. I don't ever expect it to gain any traction at all, regardless of country or market.

But seriously, no one there cares about some IT hipsters. You probably wouldn't buy their hardware anyway, because it's relatively expensive. For people like you, there is Intel with IME (Intel Management Engine) or AMD with PSE (Platform Security Processor).

Be nice to hipters. They are usually the ones pushing development efforts and boundaries (when they are not causing more trouble, that is).

There should be a permanent ban for recommending the Nouveau driver. This driver is just a nightmare, and I am not talking about poor performance, but stability and quality (graphics artefacts).
As for Wayland, no one gives a shit about it. At the moment, it causes more problems than it solves:
https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...04#post1099204
Anyway, Chinese are not interested in this at all.

But you cannot stay on X forever. Red Hat has already made it known a year ago that they have no interest to maintain X beyond RHEL 8's lifecycle, and will start letting it bitrot away: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...e-Mode-Quickly

Unless someone or some organization steps up to take on the huge burden of maintaining X, it's going to be problematic for China's domestic Linux distributions like Kylin, UOS and Deepin in the future.

Do you really think that Chinese government engineers visit this portal?

I can hope! ^_^

I will tell you what is the problem:
- lack of stable API/ABI
- completely different architecture of the current drivers (it takes years to create a new driver)
- software fascism in Linux world
BTW: While updating closed drivers is not a problem, in the case of Mesa it is not that simple. Typically, the user ends up with the driver that was delivered on release. Mesa has serious problems when it comes to supporting older kernels, X.Org releases and DDX drivers. What's worse, this is barely documented. Oh, I almost forgot: there is one more problem: it often requires new versions of GCC that you won't found in older distributions (at least Ubuntu-based).
For these reasons, you are unlikely to experience the latest Mesa drivers in Ubuntu 16.04, which is still supported by Zhaoxin.

I am not disputing this, and I don't have any issues with Zhaoxin's decision to focus on keeping the drivers out-of-tree. I just think that Zhaoxin should at least do what Nvidia is doing, which is to provide a generic .run installer that compiles and installs the driver on the spot regardless of distribution, as long as it meets certain libdrm, libglvnd and Mesa requirements.