Apple Confirms Their Future Desktops + Laptops Will Use In-House CPUs

[oiaohm]

The CCN is, as far as I can tell from their documentation, a cluster-to-cluster communication system. So you have multiple clusters, then you use something like the CCN to provide coherent memory semantics.

Issue here is the A72 core and 64 bit arm cores in general. Coherent memory semantics by the A72 core are performed the exact same way be there 1 cluster or be there 1000 clusters+.

My claim (clarified): you have a single cluster of cores (such as, on the rpi4), the coherence happens mostly internally, through the shared l2 cache.

That is not at all how a arm chip ever does coherence. AMBA is used for core to core coherence inside the cluster as well. Internally l2 cache and the AMBA.. Really think about it how are you going to have the 1 core design that does coherent memory. Using l2 for coherence instead of just cache is a different design on silicon.

This makes a simple weakness fun part is the A53 and the A72 have the same weakness. Yes the raspberry pi 3 for a A53 is also under performing. Rockchip in performance have been beating the broadcom ones by a large margin for quite some time because their design are dual cluster so avoid memory unit setting AMBA slow because it has a CCN and that speed is set independent to what your memory controller is.

vladpetric there are catches to making a design generic this is one of them. A73 and newer when you tap out your design for a single cluster modifies the AMBA not the individual cores to prevent the issue so the A73 core and newer still are interacting the same be the chip 1 cluster or 1000 clusters+ this saves time validating core design.

Basically arm chip coherence is the AMBA not the L2.

vladpetric fun part here is AMD Zen x86 chips with a single cluster yes AMD has make them is also adversely effected by slow ram resulting in infinity fabric(AMD equal to the AMBA) set slow. Yes that does include single threaded performance dropping off even for operations that don't perform any memory operations on the Zen exactly like the ARM cores. There seams to be a nice commonality in design here between AMD and ARM this happens after AMD licenses stuff from ARM.

There is a trait to the ARM designs and that trait is in the AMD Zen chips as well it all about how AMBA(arm)/Infinity fabric(AMD) is used by the cores for coherence. The intel way has you using the caches but the ARM and AMD way has you using a bus particularly for coherence so the speed of that bus is kind of critical to performance.

By the way the l2 in the arm designs for hard real-times turns out to be optional the AMBA is not. Really if the arm chips depend on L2 for coherence it would not be a removable part. Basically you are applying Intel logic to something that Intel logic does not apply vladpetric.

[ssokolow]

Many of the people I know use apple devices, so I don't know if these folks that are (mis)characterizing apple users are just trolling or really don't have broad experience with apple and being around a shit ton of people who use apple.

I'm always reminded of Why I owned a Macbook Pro for a day — and what it says to me about the future of Apple.

(Spoiler: The guy is a loyal Apple customer, and he's talking about abusing Apple's return policy to get a loaner machine while they fix his near-brand-new defective one... and receiving a second defective one... and the insane level of stonewalling he was faced with before finally talking to a manager who said "Yeah, we've been receiving reports of this for months but we're not allowed to admit it until enough of them come in.")

[finalzone]

When Samsung abandoned my Note10 (which I absolutely loved as I used the pen all the time) it pissed me off enough to just bite the bullet and get an ipad pro.

Where did you get 2-3 years Note 10 which came last year?
Note 10 Plus user here.

[Guest]

So, the thing I hate about that is that it translates to "be a member of the wealthy class or else go screw yourself".

I hate Microsoft and Microsoft Windows, but one of the key things that happened over the past twenty-five years is that an acceptable home user desktop computing experience went from a $2500 entry cost to a $400 entry cost - and even less, if you're educated enough to know what to buy when shopping. Apple has made fine computers for the past twenty years, but the entry level is still $1000 or so. And without Windows as competition, I would bet today's bottom end Macbook Air and iMac would be $2000 or higher. Apple's answer to the bottom 50% of earners in the US population is "go away".

My hope was that Android would do the same thing for mobile computing that Microsoft Windows did for desktop computing, only better because it was built on a Linux kernel. Apple would sell $600 smart phones and Android phones that were just as good would be $600, then $500, then $350, then $100 and open for all kinds of user customizations. Instead, Android has gone wrong in three ways. The Android flagships are now driving prices up as much as Apple. The open source aspects of Android are under active attack by Google, Google is systematically replacing everything with proprietary components and doing everything it can to tie Android apps to its proprietary services. And the $200 and $100 phones are not only behind in performance, they are flimsy and of poor construction. So someone like me ends up replacing so many $200 Android phones that it would have been no more expensive to just buy a single top tier phone.

Separately - as of the Samsung Galaxy S9, I think you can disable and delete most of Samsung's bloatware to get down to a nearly stock Android experience. Don't quote me on that, do your own research. But it's a much better user experience than the older Samsung Galaxy phones that crippled performance by bundling junk.

Why do you see it as bad? You don't need flagship android, or iPhone, for happy living on this planet. Same as you don't need Ferrari or Hummer,... Yep, it's fancy and comfortable to have those, but not necessary,... Many people waste money on fancy things they don't need. It's not bad, that they are priced too high.

And, if you need a cheap smartphone with great camera, I saw some,.. Just don't have other flagship features like great display, powerful cpu, high amount of RAM and storage,...

So, don't say it's bad to have high prices for luxury, noone needs to all the luxury for living. Maybe software developers do need laptop, but don't need a luxury car, and flagship phones,..

[Danielsan]

*On Debian/Ubuntu

Is not appimage platform agnostic?

[Michael_S]

Why do you see it as bad? You don't need flagship android, or iPhone, for happy living on this planet. Same as you don't need Ferrari or Hummer,... Yep, it's fancy and comfortable to have those, but not necessary,... Many people waste money on fancy things they don't need. It's not bad, that they are priced too high.

And, if you need a cheap smartphone with great camera, I saw some,.. Just don't have other flagship features like great display, powerful cpu, high amount of RAM and storage,...

So, don't say it's bad to have high prices for luxury, noone needs to all the luxury for living. Maybe software developers do need laptop, but don't need a luxury car, and flagship phones,..

If you read the rest of my post, my point was that for smart phones anything below a Google Pixel, Samsung Galaxy, or iPhone breaks very quickly. So you can spend $700 or more on a good phone every three to five years, or you can spend $200 on an average phone every year and a half.

[torsionbar28]

I'm not thinking of myself when I complain about smart phones and Apple, I'm thinking of people like my brother - in his 30s, making less than $15 an hour. He has no television, no gaming console, no tablet, a laptop that was a gift, a used car that was a gift, a $200 smart phone, and TracFone (an American pay-as-you-go option) for phone service. Unless his career has some kind of wildly unexpected twist or someone else decides to pay his rent, he will never budget Apple products. That's how a hundred million Americans live, and Apple ignores them - except for the ones it can sucker into going into debt (or further into debt) to obtain their products.

Apple is not targeting your brother's market with their products. Plain and simple. Whether you're talking cars, houses, electronics, clothing, literally any consumer product, there is always more profit margin at the higher end of the market, so that's the market many manufacturers choose to go for. I fail to see the problem. There are plenty of other manufacturers who target the low end of the market, but obviously those products won't have the same build quality or feature set as the higher end stuff. This seems like common sense, I'm not sure what part of this you're questioning?

[ssokolow]

Is not appimage platform agnostic?

My understanding is that it's up to each individual dev to ensure that property when constructing their appimage build, as opposed to Flatpak, where runtimes and flatpak-builder work together to provide a system analogous to building in a Docker image of an old Ubuntu LTS, RHEL, or SLES version.

[Michael_S]

Apple is not targeting your brother's market with their products. Plain and simple. Whether you're talking cars, houses, electronics, clothing, literally any consumer product, there is always more profit margin at the higher end of the market, so that's the market many manufacturers choose to go for. I fail to see the problem. There are plenty of other manufacturers who target the low end of the market, but obviously those products won't have the same build quality or feature set as the higher end stuff. This seems like common sense, I'm not sure what part of this you're questioning?

I'm worried about the build quality, not the feature set. A Toyota won't give you the same comfort, style, or fun-to-drive experience as a Lexus, but it will get you where you want to go. I don't expect a $400 Motorola phone to look as good, run as fast, or take pictures as nicely when compared to an iPhone. But I would expect it to last as long - and in my experience, it does not.

But also, I do not want a caste system in technology. If someone asks me, "What kind of computer and smart phone should I buy?" I do not want to answer: "If you can afford it get Apple products, and everything will be fine. If not, you can get Windows, Linux, or Chromebook for your computers and a cheap Android phone, but your life is going to suck." So even though I can afford to join the Apple fan club, I never will for that reason (and also because I believe in free software).

[sheldonl]

Where did you get 2-3 years Note 10 which came last year?
Note 10 Plus user here.

I was referring to the original Galaxy Note 10.1 tablet that was released back in 2012.