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  • torsionbar28
    replied
    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    You can always ignore the rest and just read the last paragraph of mine, which is in topic.
    Yes I read your entire long post, and very much agree with. You're one of the few around here that has an accurate view of these global issues.

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  • aht0
    replied
    Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
    This discussion thread is so.... lol. Just lol.
    You can always ignore the rest and just read the last paragraph of mine, which is in topic.

    And yeah his "we Germans did bad things baa-baa", it fairly ticked me off.. fair bit of my relatives participated in WW2 as well, on both sides. Some were rewarded with years spent in Siberian camps

    Germans, grow a fucking backbone. It's been 3/4 of century but still like beaten dogs of a drunken master. When the day comes you actually have to fight again (don't ever believe that WW2 remains last war in Europe) you'll have neither military nor a mindset if this attitude doesn't change.

    Since your own government lacks both balls and will, U.S has to both defend you and watch over you. And watch you. With your unprincipled buyable-sellable politicians leaving spying out of it is simply not an option.
    Last edited by aht0; 09-04-2019, 05:13 AM.

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  • moriel5
    replied
    Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
    This discussion thread is so.... lol. Just lol.
    I'd rather not argue, however that was just plain offensive towards people who either went through these hardships or someone from their family did.
    My great-great-grandfather was murdered by the Nazis, and everyone from my great-grandmother to my mother had to live under the watchful gaze of the K.G.B..

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  • torsionbar28
    replied
    This discussion thread is so.... lol. Just lol.

    Leave a comment:


  • aht0
    replied
    Originally posted by CochainComplex View Post

    your obviously not living in germany.

    As a german I'm well aware of our dark histroy. Before Hitler destroyed europe even the world.
    Germany was a democratic Republic with a variety of parties and well established election system at that time.
    What happend. Hitler gained more and more votes and influence by his romantic idea of social patriotic country and pointing out the scapegoat.
    At one point he became elected as chancellor - in contradiction to the us presidential system as a german chancellor
    you are the "leading" person but with way less privileges than a US president.
    Hitler got the ultimate previliges by faking a war situation with poland so that he can enable emergency legislation. This laws have to be granted by the parliament and by the president. This little exception gave him the ultimate power...to start his sinister plans.

    Bottom line ...the path between a working democratic system and fasistic / totaliterian one is very very thin. A country does not become totaliterian in a short period of time ...it becomes one bit by bit....
    As individual living in the free world part it worries me if our stellar brother of free world is acting like a totaliterian country.
    First: "thread" and "threat" are 2 distinct words with separate meanings.

    No, I am not living in Germany. My country lost nearly quarter of it's population due war tho. And, it may be weird for you and the rest of Western-Europe population, but here, nazis during 1941 invasion were literally welcomed as liberators. Because before "brown terror" came "red terror". Which was much the worse. It's a reason we contributed tens of thousands into Waffen-SS legions. And there were battles where on "one side" were our Waffen-SS units and on "other side" were our Red Army's Shooter Corps units. Fighting each-other. 2 different armies, speaking same language, spent like cheap whores by different masters, Hitler and Stalin. Tell about national tragedies. You can even get movie titled "1944" about it, it's supposedly in torrent somewhere, with English subs.



    On Stalin's orders Soviets employed 'class-purification' policy, which meant physically destroying intelligence and middle class - meaning destroying pretty much the whole fabric of society of freshly annexed new Soviet Republics. In less than a year Soviets destroyed far more people than nazis evermanaged with three. Western Europe did not experience burning villages, mass executions, deportations, looting, rapine in the scale Soviets practised: well, except on Germany in the Spring of 1945.

    Since you presume to know WW2-era history. WW2 was guaranteed to happen: because besides Germany, also Soviets were gearing up for "liberation of European workers and peasants". In long term, and it was still preached in Soviet schools in 1980s - "entire world had to be liberated to the peasants and workers." In fact, why Germans had such a great initial success in Operation Barbarossa? Because Soviets were caught pants-down in their staging areas near Soviet-German borders, still massing up for thrust, becoming easy targets. I've read of planned Soviet invasion into Europe, to back-stab Hitler, planned into early July 1941 and that seems to align well with Communist doctrine and actual placement of units in the June 1941.

    Now, let's also talk about Soviet-German alliance during 1939-1941. Not teached in German schools? Too bad. As per Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact's secret protocols, Germans and Soviets agreed to divide up Europe between themselves. It was signed bare week before German invasion of Poland - which, btw, was followed up by Soviet invasion of Poland in the second half of September 1939 and joint victory parade(s) (for example: Brest-Litovsk, September 23 1939). Up until Operation Barbarossa Soviets supplied 3rd Reich with lots of raw materials, despite international embargoes set on 3rd Reich.
    -----------------------

    Introductory part done. DONT PREACH ME ABOUT EUROPEAN DARK HISTORY. I know far more about it than I fucking wish to.

    So you are a German? One thing I think about modern Germans: you go way too far assuming guilt for WW2. You are effectively brainwashed, indoctrinated and hyper-sensitive about it. It's not even funny, it's sad. While Russians are too proud over their occupations and conquests, Germans are like torture victims in spirit, completely broken and beaten down..

    WW I victors made huge mistake, which actually pre-set favorable conditions for World War 2.

    Mistake being: "never shame a loser, never try to rob him because you won and you can". Crushing WW1 surrender terms, giving up territory, combined with economic depression of 1930's is what seeded the ground for Nazi-party rise in Germany. Weimar's Republic seemed to go nowhere good, so people chose alternative.

    If not Hitler, somebody else would have risen in his place and ended up dictator. More European countries at the time were ruled by dictators than not back then. Yes, Germany would probably not have started WW2 but Soviets would have had started the war anyway.. Guaran-fucking-teed. And Europe would still have burned in a massive war.

    -------------------

    So.. Finally. Friends and Foes. Intelligence agencies et cetera.
    Originally posted by CochainComplex View Post
    The governemt and public media is presenting the opposit.
    If russia or china is only alleged to be spying on device x it is considered as the biggest thread.
    When the US is doing it even on larger scale ...well ya it is fine they are "friends"...they can betray us.

    The underling issues: What if your friend is spying more on you than your opponents?
    As already said it is immoral if a free/ democratic country is using this kind of methods
    and it is a severe thread to the free world.
    I frankly have pretty low opinion of your chancellor and even worse opinion of your public media. Many reasons. But..

    U.S would probably consider only other "anglosphere countries" as it's true friends. Said friends being UK, NZ, Aussies. Historic ties, shared values, culture, actual backbone and language. Exceptionally, perhaps even Israel to a degree, because latter is almost only strong ally U.S has in the Middle-East and in turn Israel's own survival is tightly tied to U.S (military aid, financial aid, intelligence share)

    If your government and public media wishes to indulge in self-delusion, it's their own damn problem. Germany is probably qualified at best as an "allied country" and no more. It's part of huge bureaucratic system called European Union, which has only it's own interests at heart and which similarily gives very little thought about U.S interests.

    EU has thousands of politicians and bureaucrats (to the degree those two differ in EU at all) who all either don't give a flying fuck about U.S, see it as competitor or actively hate it (popular among French).

    So, list me reasons why U.S should not spy on Germany again and trust it to be "wholly transparent"? Being "friends" is a joke not a reason. Especially when many of your current or former politicians are actual fuckin' employees to the countries who see U.S as global competitor (or outright enemy). Your former chancellor Gerhard Schröder is working for Russian State-owned Gazprom and lobbying German politicians on behalf of Russians for example. It's also German politicans (as well as Italian and France's) who lobby against sanctions imposed on Russia. Which were put into place because Russia took on itself to change European borders first time after 1945 (Ukraine, 2014).
    Did German politicians 5 years a go had guts for more than waving fingers, no-no, bad-bad boy, we condemn your actions with strong words.

    Now, in 2019, they are lobbying to get the sanctions lifted, for personal gain/short-term economic profit. Without considering the fact that if they are propping Russians economically up again, some other country could well find itself or part of it annexed - who cares afterall, it won't be part of Germany..
    And Russians can easily see a usable pattern emerging: "Annex, wait 5 years for "forgiveness", recover few years economically, annex again.." All thanks to our German (,French, Italian and Greek) "friends". Pathetic.

    Can Germany be trusted from U.S's point of view? Country, which has it's politicians working for unfriendly powers, country which does not want to protect itself nor any of its "friends" (side note: Germany relies on U.S for defense far more than it relies on Bundeswehr - latter of which is SERIOUSLY undermanned, underfinanced and not even in maintenance mode). Country, which at the same time wants to compete with U.S economically. Country, which lacks self-preservation instinct to the degree it actually causes itself long-term internal-security-nightmare by inviting in couple of million Islamic immigrants.. Jesus.

    No, and again, hell no. Such country cannot be trusted neither as an ally nor as a friend.
    EDIT: liquidated some typos
    Last edited by aht0; 09-03-2019, 07:16 AM.

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  • microcode
    replied
    I don't know about you folks, but I for one welcome our no such agency overlords.

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  • CochainComplex
    replied
    Originally posted by aht0 View Post

    Pointless claims. What you don't realize, it's sadly utterly necessary in modern hyper-competitive world. Despite 'international community', smiling faces, nice round diplomatic talk, relations between powerblocks are more akin to relations between packs of hungry wolves jostling for each-other's territories and prey animals therein.

    Stopping spying on others would mean putting oneself into disadvantageous position voluntarily. Which will end up affecting country's population in a negative manner, sooner or later.
    Its pointless - because it will mean the following: China is on (Main)Board, Russia is on Board, US is on board.... What ever happens it will be used against you. ...Ever heard the expression "Thoughts are free"? ...they are because at the very moment nobody can read them. If they can be read ...everyone, each single person will be put to jail because at least at one certain point of life each of us must have had a bad thought or something which is totally in contradiction of another ones oppinion....

    And spying on your computer is almost like that. You express your thoughts, your life ....you are sharing your memories, ideas, contacts ...etc with your computer ...and some people may not like it.

    After you have read my stuff: You have most likely put me on the china / russia supporters page right?
    Because I was "bashing" NSA.
    Now let us assume that you are an algorithm with the task finding potential risks - Am I a thread? What next? Minimizing the risk and try to calm me down with restricting my network connection, using a killswitch ? Or maybe am I too critical? - puting me behind bars might be better

    ...far fetched?
    Well I was never thinking of european civil cars are considered as a "national security thread" for the us president.

    And one more thing ....who are the others you are referring to? The Opponents Russia, China, North Korea? ....or the EU too? Is Germany a thread to the US? - why stationing nuclear bombs here if it is that bad ...

    Imagine this situation:

    You have a partner - partner is cheating on you. Even if you are cheating on your partner too it can not be named a healty partnership?

    Distrust and betrayl is one of the motors behind wars. Especially the ones between friends. So yes this approach is increasing the countries security ..sure

    p.s.: I havent bought a Xiaomi Vacuum cleaner robot even if the price is great but I know that it is almost likely that that thing might spy. I have completly supported the decision that Huawei will not be considered as 5G Supplier...that just aside to give a bit more infos about my mindset
    Last edited by CochainComplex; 09-02-2019, 08:52 AM.

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  • CochainComplex
    replied
    Originally posted by aht0 View Post

    Considering the sheer amount of electronics being produced in China, can you really be as stupid as to think they don't dabble in covert SIGINT surveillance..? Even through consumer goods. I remind you Chinese laws, where all private companies are required to cooperate with domestic intelligence agencies if so requested. Over half the electronics around us carries label "Made in China". And Chinese philosophy of intelligence gathering equals to collecting even most spurious tid-bits, on off chance it might become useful later.

    Russian strong side is HUMINT, not SIGINT but even their military signal intelligence and electronic warfare-tech is ahead of West. Spying on cellular phones across borders, planting fake cellular base stations near NATO military installations, you name it, you have it. If they produced electronic consumer goods people across world would buy, you can bet your ass hefty chunk of it would be backdoored.

    So, for one party backdooring is immoral, especially when it represents "free country" but when the agency belongs to oligarchy, dictatorship or feudal-industrial power, then, since their deeds are suppressed and not publicly talked about, they are quite okay? Or what? Because I don't see Russian or Chinese spyagencies bashed in a similar manner. At all.
    your obviously not living in germany.
    The governemt and public media is presenting the opposit.
    If russia or china is only alleged to be spying on device x it is considered as the biggest thread.
    When the US is doing it even on larger scale ...well ya it is fine they are "friends"...they can betray us.

    The underling issues: What if your friend is spying more on you than your opponents?
    As already said it is immoral if a free/ democratic country is using this kind of methods
    and it is a severe thread to the free world.

    As a german I'm well aware of our dark histroy. Before Hitler destroyed europe even the world.
    Germany was a democratic Republic with a variety of parties and well established election system at that time.
    What happend. Hitler gained more and more votes and influence by his romantic idea of social patriotic country and pointing out the scapegoat.
    At one point he became elected as chancellor - in contradiction to the us presidential system as a german chancellor
    you are the "leading" person but with way less privileges than a US president.
    Hitler got the ultimate previliges by faking a war situation with poland so that he can enable emergency legislation. This laws have to be granted by the parliament and by the president. This little exception gave him the ultimate power...to start his sinister plans.

    Bottom line ...the path between a working democratic system and fasistic / totaliterian one is very very thin. A country does not become totaliterian in a short period of time ...it becomes one bit by bit....
    As individual living in the free world part it worries me if our stellar brother of free world is acting like a totaliterian country.





    Leave a comment:


  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by CochainComplex View Post
    but russia nor china havnt requested direct access via intel me ..psp....
    they can't request that.
    They use different backdoors
    https://thehackernews.com/2016/05/an...l-exploit.html
    https://mg.co.za/article/2018-01-29-...ions-computers
    https://www.breitbart.com/asia/2018/...uter-industry/

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  • aht0
    replied
    Originally posted by DavidKL View Post
    1) tu quoque fallacy – "Running over grandma is fine because those people run over grandma and pets!"

    2) fatalism fallacy — "It must be always because it is right now."

    3) ad hominem fallacy — Name-calling/shoot the messenger to avoid confronting the message.

    Plus, as others noted, you ignored the issues of information sharing/jurisdiction, in terms of the nefariousness of exposure to repressive surveillance. A lot of that may be wishful thinking, though, since vacuuming-up data from the big pipes has been standard practice for quite some time now, as far as I know.
    Pointless claims. What you don't realize, it's sadly utterly necessary in modern hyper-competitive world. Despite 'international community', smiling faces, nice round diplomatic talk, relations between powerblocks are more akin to relations between packs of hungry wolves jostling for each-other's territories and prey animals therein.

    Stopping spying on others would mean putting oneself into disadvantageous position voluntarily. Which will end up affecting country's population in a negative manner, sooner or later.

    Leave a comment:

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