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  • F i L
    replied
    Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
    you are a casual user who is a game developer who doesn't know how to install a s3tc lib and cannot compile mesa
    I never said I was a "casual user", I said we share a common problem of practicality. If you where actually trying to have a constructive back-n-fourth with me rather than desperately looking for flaws in my statements, then you would be questioning my specific statements instead of constructing straw-man arguments.

    you want to support free software by using a closed driver
    Only because it's impractical to do otherwise for both me, and my target audience.

    yes you do contradict yourself alot and if you as a game developer use the free driver(s) rather than the blob(s) you can report bugs and suggest improvements - if you do not you cannot
    I will try and test on the open-drivers more in the future, but I only have so much time. Beyond that, I'm rather bored of this conversation and I probably won't be responding again. Good bye.

    Leave a comment:


  • D0pamine
    replied
    Originally posted by F i L View Post
    Your point? I know this, I run Blender on Linux, Windows, & Mac. I just prefer to use Linux as my default desktop environment because there are other things I do as well (such as, but not limited to, D programming) which are easier to do on Linux. Plus, I just like supporting Linux by using it and reporting bugs when I find them.


    You expect me to compile my own drivers? No thanks, I don't have the time. This is a completely unrealistic options for me or any causal user. However, the fact that Intel's latest drivers allow these features to be easily enabled (so I hear), is most likely do to pressures from Valve and Unity Game Engine. This is, and has been, my point this entire time. We need things to "just work" on Linux so the things that are morally superior (like the OSS drivers) can receive more attention due to increased consumer activity.


    I said it makes them possible, please read my post more carefully.


    Do you have any idea how many commercial games require texture compression, or how much work it would require just to make them work without that? Do you honestly believe these developers are just going to spend all that time on for a system which is the smallest sliver of their revenue pie? Even if they want to, it's simple unrealistic to expect them to make the effort. Plus, maximizing the frame rate of games is one of the biggest concerns of developers, because it's, in-turn, one of the biggest concerns of consumers.

    I highly doubt games run on the OSS drivers would run at speeds anything a Windows consumer would consider acceptable frame-rates. Why run them slower anyways, when your only a simple download away from much better frame-rates?


    I don't know enough about Mesa to properly comment on this, but I doubt it. The pro's don't outweigh the cons, and that's exactly why Valve and Unity3D are targeting the blobs only.


    Never said it did. I said I need GL3.3+ for development.


    This is completely different that using Linux/X11 as a desktop PC. Though I do agree that OSS is ultimately superior. I've stated that numerous times. My only point this entire time is that it's not realistic for the open-source drivers to be a requirement (or blobs-killer) today. Hopefully tomorrow isn't far away.


    I used to run the OSS drivers, dude, and they glitch out my system (the whole screen lags for ~quarter second around every 15-30 seconds). And that happened on every distro I installed: Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Suse, & Arch. So I don't trust you on this. But even if they where most stable (and I'm sure they are on a lot of hardware), I would still need the performance and OpenGL feature versions of the blobs.


    Baseless assertions aren't convincing. I noticed you didn't address the contradiction I pointed out in your statements, BTW (advocating pure-OSS then OSS-on-Windows).
    you are a casual user who is a game developer who doesn't know how to install a s3tc lib and cannot compile mesa

    you want to support free software by using a closed driver

    yes you do contradict yourself alot and if you as a game developer use the free driver(s) rather than the blob(s) you can report bugs and suggest improvements - if you do not you cannot

    Leave a comment:


  • juxtatux
    replied
    Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
    you make absolutely no sense what so ever
    shame lol

    ~/Jux

    Leave a comment:


  • F i L
    replied
    Originally posted by pandev92 View Post
    Fil you are a big troll, http://people.freedesktop.org/~cbrill/libtxc_dxtn/, distros can't install it because legal patents restrictions.

    You don't need to create your own driver, only use the brain , and search the .deb, rpm , tar.gz(aur), nothing more.
    Thanks for the information, I didn't know it was that easy. Still, I need the performance of the blobs, even with texture compression enabled on the open drivers. However, this may mean we'll start adding open-driver support in our software in the future, if it really is only a install a lib from the AUR (in my case).

    That being said, it's still ultimately more complicated than a complete Linux noob would be capable of doing. You can't expect laymen to even know what texture compression is, let alone hunt down an external library. That could change if "Official S3TC lib PPA" was advertise on some core site somewhere, but that's probably restricted by the patent as well. As I've stated before, I'm all for the open-drivers, and I do hope they get faster and more supported in the future.


    ps. You're using the term "troll" wrong, I'm wasn't intentionally being misleading; just uninformed.

    Leave a comment:


  • pandev92
    replied
    Fil you are a big troll, http://people.freedesktop.org/~cbrill/libtxc_dxtn/, distros can't install it because legal patents restrictions.

    You don't need to create your own driver, only use the brain , and search the .deb, rpm , tar.gz(aur), nothing more.

    Leave a comment:


  • F i L
    replied
    Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
    blender runs on windows!
    Your point? I know this, I run Blender on Linux, Windows, & Mac. I just prefer to use Linux as my default desktop environment because there are other things I do as well (such as, but not limited to, D programming) which are easier to do on Linux. Plus, I just like supporting Linux by using it and reporting bugs when I find them.

    I assume you mean S3TC texture compression? this is available via libtxc_dxtn
    You expect me to compile my own drivers? No thanks, I don't have the time. This is a completely unrealistic options for me or any causal user. However, the fact that Intel's latest drivers allow these features to be easily enabled (so I hear), is most likely do to pressures from Valve and Unity Game Engine. This is, and has been, my point this entire time. We need things to "just work" on Linux so the things that are morally superior (like the OSS drivers) can receive more attention due to increased consumer activity.

    and what steam games? there are no steam games available on gnu/linux as yet
    I said it makes them possible, please read my post more carefully.

    and if they were i'm pretty sure the r600g driver could handle them no problem
    Do you have any idea how many commercial games require texture compression, or how much work it would require just to make them work without that? Do you honestly believe these developers are just going to spend all that time on for a system which is the smallest sliver of their revenue pie? Even if they want to, it's simple unrealistic to expect them to make the effort. Plus, maximizing the frame rate of games is one of the biggest concerns of developers, because it's, in-turn, one of the biggest concerns of consumers.

    I highly doubt games run on the OSS drivers would run at speeds anything a Windows consumer would consider acceptable frame-rates. Why run them slower anyways, when your only a simple download away from much better frame-rates?

    infact because all the free drivers use mesa for opengl this will make life much easier for valve instead of having to work around the different interpretations of opengl that amd/nvidia come up with
    I don't know enough about Mesa to properly comment on this, but I doubt it. The pro's don't outweigh the cons, and that's exactly why Valve and Unity3D are targeting the blobs only.

    and since when does blender require opengl 3.3?
    Never said it did. I said I need GL3.3+ for development.

    everyone who uses computers on the internet uses gnu/linux - it is one of the most widely used operating systems in the world - it got to this point by being free not by half arsed open/closed development
    This is completely different that using Linux/X11 as a desktop PC. Though I do agree that OSS is ultimately superior. I've stated that numerous times. My only point this entire time is that it's not realistic for the open-source drivers to be a requirement (or blobs-killer) today. Hopefully tomorrow isn't far away.

    and i can assure you now that the radeon drivers have alot less bugs than the current catalyst drivers - i know because i can do a side by side comparison
    I used to run the OSS drivers, dude, and they glitch out my system (the whole screen lags for ~quarter second around every 15-30 seconds). And that happened on every distro I installed: Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Suse, & Arch. So I don't trust you on this. But even if they where most stable (and I'm sure they are on a lot of hardware), I would still need the performance and OpenGL feature versions of the blobs.

    your arguments fail and you contradict yourself alot
    Baseless assertions aren't convincing. I noticed you didn't address the contradiction I pointed out in your statements, BTW (advocating pure-OSS then OSS-on-Windows).
    Last edited by F i L; 10-23-2012, 10:22 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • D0pamine
    replied
    Originally posted by juxtatux View Post
    I've been reading the posts...FOSS vs. BLOBS...and being all for GNU, commits to the kernel by vendors to support proprietary drivers look like HEX address not C. But when your source desktop accepts the BLOB there isn't a really easy way to get it out. Which must mean other programs start to point to it as the system emerges. Illustrating GNU/Cancer or at least portage thinks so. BUT... and here's the devils advocate for it. Open Sources Code for power managment...I mean seriously. If every expoilt for X generation GPU is found out. Remote access granted - root access gained. Crack the volts or clocks on the GPU...kill the fan. BOOM... sooooooo ... this is why I believe the Linux drivers are always in the backfield. Why manufactures are reluctant to assist and call Gallium reverse engineering. Fermi is full of hw errata that almost kept the chipset off the streets. The AMD / ATI acquisition couldn't be without discovering the same in older GPU reference designs. So I went with closed source...and have the GNU/CANCER, lol.

    ~/Jux
    you make absolutely no sense what so ever

    Leave a comment:


  • juxtatux
    replied
    I've been reading the posts...FOSS vs. BLOBS...and being all for GNU, commits to the kernel by vendors to support proprietary drivers look like HEX address not C. But when your source desktop accepts the BLOB there isn't a really easy way to get it out. Which must mean other programs start to point to it as the system emerges. Illustrating GNU/Cancer or at least portage thinks so. BUT... and here's the devils advocate for it. Open Sources Code for power managment...I mean seriously. If every expoilt for X generation GPU is found out. Remote access granted - root access gained. Crack the volts or clocks on the GPU...kill the fan. BOOM... sooooooo ... this is why I believe the Linux drivers are always in the backfield. Why manufactures are reluctant to assist and call Gallium reverse engineering. Fermi is full of hw errata that almost kept the chipset off the streets. The AMD / ATI acquisition couldn't be without discovering the same in older GPU reference designs. So I went with closed source...and have the GNU/CANCER, lol.

    ~/Jux

    Leave a comment:


  • D0pamine
    replied
    Originally posted by F i L View Post
    First you say the only way to support Open Source is to go Open-Source only, then you advocate using FOSS on Windows?

    Also, you never asked which software I needed the blobs for, so your "I can only repeat again" statement is misdirected. I gave you two examples in my first response: Blender and OpenGL. Granted it wasn't clear that by 'OpenGL' I meant OpenGL development, specifically texture compression and GL3.3+ support. I'm an artist and co-developer of cross-platform indi-games/game-engine (in my spare time, engine is https://github.com/reignstudios/ReignSDK). Although not released on Linux yet, and not the most impressive of titles, our latest game (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pvCcgQiXNk) requires texture compression. Our new project requires heavy 3D modeling and modern differed rendering techniques. It's simply impractical to work around the limitations and bugs of Linux OSS drivers specifically when that's such a small marketing target to begin with.

    I work almost exclusively on Linux, but I wouldn't be able to if it weren't for the closed-source blobs. Honestly though, all that's besides the point. Even if all anyone did was run games on Linux, having a closed-driver as an option would still be a good thing because at least Steam games are possible at that point (which they aren't with the OSS drivers, yet), and that would lead to a higher volume of Linux desktops out there. More consumers means more support means more development, which is exactly what your arguing having closed-source drivers prevents.

    Look, I'm a eager as the next guy to have the OSS drivers catch-up to the closed-source ones, but the reality is they simply aren't heading that direction any-time soon and they never will if people don't see Linux as a graphically comparable alternative to Windows.
    blender runs on windows!

    I assume you mean S3TC texture compression? this is available via libtxc_dxtn

    and what steam games? there are no steam games available on gnu/linux as yet and if they were i'm pretty sure the r600g driver could handle them no problem

    infact because all the free drivers use mesa for opengl this will make life much easier for valve instead of having to work around the different interpretations of opengl that amd/nvidia come up with

    and since when does blender require opengl 3.3?

    everyone who uses computers on the internet uses gnu/linux - it is one of the most widely used operating systems in the world - it got to this point by being free not by half arsed open/closed development

    and i can assure you now that the radeon drivers have alot less bugs than the current catalyst drivers - i know because i can do a side by side comparison

    your arguments fail and you contradict yourself alot

    Leave a comment:


  • F i L
    replied
    Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
    you can run free software on windows...

    EDIT: I can only repeat again - what software are you using that requires opengl 4.x ? and what software are you using that the r600g driver cannot handle?

    oil rush?
    First you say the only way to support Open Source is to go Open-Source only, then you advocate using FOSS on Windows?

    Also, you never asked which software I needed the blobs for, so your "I can only repeat again" statement is misdirected. I gave you two examples in my first response: Blender and OpenGL. Granted it wasn't clear that by 'OpenGL' I meant OpenGL development, specifically texture compression and GL3.3+ support. I'm an artist and co-developer of cross-platform indi-games/game-engine (in my spare time, engine is https://github.com/reignstudios/ReignSDK). Although not released on Linux yet, and not the most impressive of titles, our latest game (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pvCcgQiXNk) requires texture compression. Our new project requires heavy 3D modeling and modern differed rendering techniques. It's simply impractical to work around the limitations and bugs of Linux OSS drivers specifically when that's such a small marketing target to begin with.

    I work almost exclusively on Linux, but I wouldn't be able to if it weren't for the closed-source blobs. Honestly though, all that's besides the point. Even if all anyone did was run games on Linux, having a closed-driver as an option would still be a good thing because at least Steam games are possible at that point (which they aren't with the OSS drivers, yet), and that would lead to a higher volume of Linux desktops out there. More consumers means more support means more development, which is exactly what your arguing having closed-source drivers prevents.

    Look, I'm a eager as the next guy to have the OSS drivers catch-up to the closed-source ones, but the reality is they simply aren't heading that direction any-time soon and they never will if people don't see Linux as a graphically comparable alternative to Windows.

    Leave a comment:

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