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  • bridgman
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul Frederick View Post
    What tans my hide is AMD has said some things, then done others. I'd be more on their side if either they didn't promise the Moon, yet fail to deliver, or just were more consistent. I'll admit Nvidia's policy isn't ideal, but at least they're not all over the map. So I have to respect Nvidia more. Nvidia just seems more honorable to me than AMD. They're not lying to me, or insulting my intelligence by saying one thing, then doing another.
    Hi Paul;

    Do you have any specific examples of this on the graphics side ? I've heard the same statement multiple times over the years but never been able to pin down an actual example. There are a lot of cases where random people on the internet have said things which we haven't done, but that's obviously not the same.

    Originally posted by Paul Frederick View Post
    Furthermore it is my understanding that in order to acquire all of the technology that Nvidia uses they have had to enter agreements with other entities themselves. Elements of these contracts constrain Nvidia from disclosing proprietary information they use. What is Nvidia supposed to do? They have 3 choices here, either don't use the best tech, throw their partners under the bus to make the FOSS zealots happy, or do what they're doing. I imagine they're doing the best they can.
    We have all the same issues. There's a 4th solution -- spend the time and effort to cut very carefully between what you can release and what you can't release, try to negotiate agreements to release the remaining bits, and/or find other technical solutions then release what you can. It's a lot of work, it was a tough sell internally, and it goes more slowly than anyone would like, but it works.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kano
    replied
    k6(-2/3) were very bad compared pentium 2/3. but athlon and athlon xp where good cpus at that time. the problems for amd began with intel core2 and especially witht the core2 quad. intel just put 2 duals together to create one quad core, amd needed too long time to develop a "real" quad. phenom was 1 year to late and had one stupid tlb error, phenom ii fixed that, but then came intel i series with an additional performance boost. you can forget the new fx series, the speed/core even degraded because compared to 6 real cores you get a curious 8/4 core combo. now amd wants to sell cpu+gpu combinations, but intel does the same. amd has the "better" gpu part when you look at win drivers for mainstream, but i dont think the target user group really wants to play games which would barly run with intel gfx and 25% faster with amd gfx. All that matter is the price in that market segment, there raw power is not important for office/internet use.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazycheese
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul Frederick View Post
    So I obviously know who they were, and what happened to it too. It was fast, but it identified itself as a 486, so that hampered its performance with 586 applications.
    I haven't asked what Cyrix processors where, but who Cyrix themself were. They were elite company, much better than Intel, who designed processors some of which were more capable than those of Intel - all this with a such small team size. Yes, they essentially failed at marketing, yet Intel was not the omnipontent as you suggested.

    Also, if you trackback to the history around K7, it was essentially better than both pentium 3 and 4 (at start, during several years).

    So Intel is not the only one capable of producing good solutions

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Frederick
    replied
    I know where my Cyrix chip is

    Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
    Incorrect. Please check who Cyrix were and what happened to them.
    So I obviously know who they were, and what happened to it too. It was fast, but it identified itself as a 486, so that hampered its performance with 586 applications.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazycheese
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul Frederick View Post
    What tans my hide is AMD has said some things, then done others. I'd be more on their side if either they didn't promise the Moon, yet fail to deliver, or just were more consistent. I'll admit Nvidia's policy isn't ideal, but at least they're not all over the map. So I have to respect Nvidia more. Nvidia just seems more honorable to me than AMD. They're not lying to me, or insulting my intelligence by saying one thing, then doing another.

    Furthermore it is my understanding that in order to acquire all of the technology that Nvidia uses they have had to enter agreements with other entities themselves. Elements of these contracts constrain Nvidia from disclosing proprietary information they use. What is Nvidia supposed to do? They have 3 choices here, either don't use the best tech, throw their partners under the bus to make the FOSS zealots happy, or do what they're doing. I imagine they're doing the best they can.

    I hate to break it to people but we don't live in a perfect world where Unicorns run around crapping out rainbows. Those who get along the best compromise when they need to. The rest cut off their own noses to spite their faces. That is too ugly for me.

    If AMD is the good guys then fit me for an Imperial Stormtrooper suit of armor. Because I'm not comfortable living the life of a rag tag rebel if it means I have to sacrifice. Ethics don't increase frames per second for me.
    Actually, I'm Luke Skywalker using captured X-fighter.
    AMD did something very good with opensource move, the problem was and is - how they did it. Unicorn without corn is a weak unicorn.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Frederick
    replied
    Where do you think I got those numbers from?

    Originally posted by asdx
    Number don't lie? Are you sure? You might want to ask the Nouveau people about the blob lying you.
    That is the output from Darkplaces with the benchmark switch. The Blob has nothing to do with it. Don't make me go get LordHavoc to spank you! He uses AMD by the way. At least I think that is what he told me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Frederick
    replied
    You're absolutely right

    Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
    Guys quit fighting. Seriously. This is pathetic.

    "Paul Frederick", "Kano" are right. Nvidia was first to support their GPU+whole stack for linux, boosting linux as platform for something else than servers. Desktops. Later they became lame with support and simply failed with optimus.

    "asdx" you are right too. AMD was first to partially opensource their GPUs and I think first to hire (very small) team to actually help implementing functionality. Now they would win, if not for absence of features, performance, lack of progress in the driver itself - all thanks to small team, team shaped in size according to current market share (not persuited marketshare, like they do under W) and not according to driver complexity.
    This is why many think AMD opensource, while existing, is pathetic.

    Now you have: working high performance GPU on blob, barely working high performance GPU on opensource and working somewhat-capable GPU on opensource.
    It is true, that AMD continued to push FGLRX, where it is still not near as good as nvidia - but they
    a) lost some userbase, who saw that AMD puts resources in closed source - same what nvidia did and have no major breakthrough plans.
    b) ended persuing same approach that nvidia did right from start.

    I did a poll here once about "Would you switch to AMD from nvidia if they(AMD) deliver usable opengl4 driver" - the results were 90% pro.

    So, please understand, that there are people who WOULD change, but CAN'T because they either expect or need working hardware rather than code-based sane driver.
    They are not bound to nvidia thanks to their fanatism, but only because there is no better solution.
    AMD with their FGLRX try to create "equal" solution, but I seriously doubt waters will flow, when levels are equal.

    You can try talk to AMD about finding a better way to improve opensource situation than currently. A lot people did and all their ideas were talked down BY AMD ITSELF.
    Seeing how little AMD _actually_ cares about _working_ opensource, I don't use them. Blown 120? for card that AMD does not care to support much. Felt pain. Enough for me.

    So, its not black and white. Use what you think is right. If AMD cared to change things, it would...

    "Enverex", please you should not use "windows benchmarks" for reference. This is about Linux.
    If you are thinking about buying graphics hardware that works only under windows - this is not Linux compatible hardware.
    You cannot pull argument "my car is faster" and then add "if it runs in vacuum". Stay on same road please when you compare, especially because nvidia is no less capable under windows as it is under linux or linux/wine.

    What tans my hide is AMD has said some things, then done others. I'd be more on their side if either they didn't promise the Moon, yet fail to deliver, or just were more consistent. I'll admit Nvidia's policy isn't ideal, but at least they're not all over the map. So I have to respect Nvidia more. Nvidia just seems more honorable to me than AMD. They're not lying to me, or insulting my intelligence by saying one thing, then doing another.

    Furthermore it is my understanding that in order to acquire all of the technology that Nvidia uses they have had to enter agreements with other entities themselves. Elements of these contracts constrain Nvidia from disclosing proprietary information they use. What is Nvidia supposed to do? They have 3 choices here, either don't use the best tech, throw their partners under the bus to make the FOSS zealots happy, or do what they're doing. I imagine they're doing the best they can.

    I hate to break it to people but we don't live in a perfect world where Unicorns run around crapping out rainbows. Those who get along the best compromise when they need to. The rest cut off their own noses to spite their faces. That is too ugly for me.

    If AMD is the good guys then fit me for an Imperial Stormtrooper suit of armor. Because I'm not comfortable living the life of a rag tag rebel if it means I have to sacrifice. Ethics don't increase frames per second for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kano
    replied
    @PsynoKhi0

    You have to pay more for the fastest intel cpus than those from amd, but they are faster. You pay more and get more. If you dont have got the money you could go with the celeron/pentium brands as well. I would say a 3ghz pentium will beat any amd cpu in terms of single/dual core speed which is important for many games. It is not my problem what cpu you can afford or not.

    The new amd trinity chips with a bit faster 3d engine than intel hd 4000 might power more midclass systems soon. The fx series of chips are basically useless, for hardcore gamers you still need intel cpus and for the rest the other ones are enough.

    I support many Kanotix users, which are much fewer than Ubuntu users thats clear. When a gfx driver is bad ppl ask me first. I will definitely not suggest hardware with the worst Linux support i know of. If you do not own a lowend gfx card where speed is unimportant you usually want to use the speed you payed for. The most easy way is to use nvidia dedicated gfx cards on desktop systems. For laptops i mainly suggest to go for intel ONLY systems as they are usually the most painless ones. Of course i test fglrx (and amd oss drivers) as soon as there is a new one. Usually they fix no problem that was known before. If amd fixes something then maybe with a 2-3 months delay in case they are fast. Some issues have been fixed 11 month after i reported em first. After that the driver was dropped for "legacy" hardware. This just happened again, but if you want to use oss drivers nobody will hold you back. But please do not suggest highend hardware for oss driver usage, that will only lead to disappointment.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazycheese
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul Frederick View Post
    Intel is, was, and always will be number one.
    Incorrect. Please check who Cyrix were and what happened to them.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazycheese
    replied
    Guys quit fighting. Seriously. This is pathetic.

    "Paul Frederick", "Kano" are right. Nvidia was first to support their GPU+whole stack for linux, boosting linux as platform for something else than servers. Desktops. Later they became lame with support and simply failed with optimus.

    "asdx" you are right too. AMD was first to partially opensource their GPUs and I think first to hire (very small) team to actually help implementing functionality. Now they would win, if not for absence of features, performance, lack of progress in the driver itself - all thanks to small team, team shaped in size according to current market share (not persuited marketshare, like they do under W) and not according to driver complexity.
    This is why many think AMD opensource, while existing, is pathetic.

    Now you have: working high performance GPU on blob, barely working high performance GPU on opensource and working somewhat-capable GPU on opensource.
    It is true, that AMD continued to push FGLRX, where it is still not near as good as nvidia - but they
    a) lost some userbase, who saw that AMD puts resources in closed source - same what nvidia did and have no major breakthrough plans.
    b) ended persuing same approach that nvidia did right from start.

    I did a poll here once about "Would you switch to AMD from nvidia if they(AMD) deliver usable opengl4 driver" - the results were 90% pro.

    So, please understand, that there are people who WOULD change, but CAN'T because they either expect or need working hardware rather than code-based sane driver.
    They are not bound to nvidia thanks to their fanatism, but only because there is no better solution.
    AMD with their FGLRX try to create "equal" solution, but I seriously doubt waters will flow, when levels are equal.

    You can try talk to AMD about finding a better way to improve opensource situation than currently. A lot people did and all their ideas were talked down BY AMD ITSELF.
    Seeing how little AMD _actually_ cares about _working_ opensource, I don't use them. Blown 120? for card that AMD does not care to support much. Felt pain. Enough for me.

    So, its not black and white. Use what you think is right. If AMD cared to change things, it would...

    "Enverex", please you should not use "windows benchmarks" for reference. This is about Linux.
    If you are thinking about buying graphics hardware that works only under windows - this is not Linux compatible hardware.
    You cannot pull argument "my car is faster" and then add "if it runs in vacuum". Stay on same road please when you compare, especially because nvidia is no less capable under windows as it is under linux or linux/wine.

    Leave a comment:

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