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  • #11
    Originally posted by Qaridarium
    in my point of view:

    a 6870 will have 800 shader cores its a hd5770 refresh with 265bit memory interface and 205gb/s

    a 6770 will have 800 shader cores its a hd5770 refresh with 128bit memory interface and 100gb/s

    a 6990 is a single GPU card its the compare to the hd5870 to the beginning there will be no dualgpu card at the 6xxx line.
    So you call me bull shitting and you come up with those joke opinion? Man what are you smoking!

    5870 has 1600 SP and 6870, 'In your opinion', will have 800 SP? Not to mention your "265 bit" fucking joke?

    You are such an incompetent piece of joke

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    • #12
      What does it matter how great the hardware specs are, when the potential is being hold back by the drivers? I still often hear from ATI (yeah, AMD whatever) users with their problems, minor or otherwise, with Catalyst/fglrx drivers, like nothings changed and still totally stigmatised. And what good is UVD for Linux users?

      No matter how much I ideologically believe in FLOSS, we'll be lucky if we can reach 70% of the potential of a 5770 in less than 4 years, and at that time a 6890 is outdated (not obsolete, but outperformed).

      Specs are useless without good drivers.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by numasan View Post
        we'll be lucky if we can reach 70% of the potential of a 5770 in less than 4 years
        Even 70%? O_O
        In only 4 years? O_O
        You are too much optimistic!
        ## VGA ##
        AMD: X1950XTX, HD3870, HD5870
        Intel: GMA45, HD3000 (Core i5 2500K)

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        • #14
          Originally posted by numasan View Post
          No matter how much I ideologically believe in FLOSS, we'll be lucky if we can reach 70% of the potential of a 5770 in less than 4 years, and at that time a 6890 is outdated (not obsolete, but outperformed). Specs are useless without good drivers.
          Numasan, the 70% estimate came from our architects based on the current size of the open source driver development community and the complexity of the development task. Most of what can be done to simplify the development task (eg transition to Gallium3D, documentation etc..) is being done but the easy way for someone to "break the 70% rule" is to get involved and contribute to the development effort. Doubling the resources won't halve the performance gap (as with so many things, you probably need 10x the resources to get 2x the results) but it would sure make a difference.

          Somewhere in the last decade the average users's view of the FOSS ideal has gone from "we can do it" to "why isn't someone else doing it ?". Initial indications suggest that the new model doesn't work so well.
          Test signature

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          • #15
            Originally posted by bridgman View Post
            Somewhere in the last decade the average users's view of the FOSS ideal has gone from "we can do it" to "why isn't someone else doing it ?". Initial indications suggest that the new model doesn't work so well.
            I actually wonder if that has something to do with the fact that Linux has developed so far. I mean, maybe the people with hacker mentality aren't finding a well-documented platform as fun to hack as some completely unknown frontier? *shrug*

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            • #16
              Yes, I'm aware of the situation where "normal users" are demanding more and more without contributing back, and being a non-programmer myself I'm probably viewed as belonging to this group. The only "power" I have is the money I choose to spend, and that is a drop in the ocean... AMD doesn't care if I choose to buy AMD hardware exclusively because of your work, Bridgman. Volunteers are scratching their own itch, benefiting us all sure, but as the Kwin story shows even (in my eyes) hardcore developers are having a hard time with the graphics stack. How on earth should I who barely knows Python contribute to reach the full potential of modern GPUs? It seems that even a team of Catalyst developers can't do it.

              I don't want to dismiss anyones work, but I must say I'm unimpressed by hardware specs that on paper is "20% faster than the current greatest", that doesn't mean anything in reality for us Linux users, using either closed or open drivers. I'd rather have a GPU that is 20% slower but works as advertised and flawlessly. In time open drivers can fulfill this I believe (hope), but now as a common, non-GPU-code-contributing end-user, great AMD hardware is not as attractive as it could be. In this position I don't care how AMD shuffles resources, as long as it can justify my investment.

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              • #17
                Well, I suppose eg going for RedHat subscription or similar would be the most feasible way to put your money into something that will most likely end up in Linux development.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by numasan View Post
                  Yes, I'm aware of the situation where "normal users" are demanding more and more without contributing back, and being a non-programmer myself I'm probably viewed as belonging to this group. The only "power" I have is the money I choose to spend, and that is a drop in the ocean... AMD doesn't care if I choose to buy AMD hardware exclusively because of your work, Bridgman. Volunteers are scratching their own itch, benefiting us all sure, but as the Kwin story shows even (in my eyes) hardcore developers are having a hard time with the graphics stack. How on earth should I who barely knows Python contribute to reach the full potential of modern GPUs? It seems that even a team of Catalyst developers can't do it.

                  I don't want to dismiss anyones work, but I must say I'm unimpressed by hardware specs that on paper is "20% faster than the current greatest", that doesn't mean anything in reality for us Linux users, using either closed or open drivers. I'd rather have a GPU that is 20% slower but works as advertised and flawlessly. In time open drivers can fulfill this I believe (hope), but now as a common, non-GPU-code-contributing end-user, great AMD hardware is not as attractive as it could be. In this position I don't care how AMD shuffles resources, as long as it can justify my investment.
                  I agree.

                  The specs look great.... for Windows users. That's what the improvements are for. Heck, the Evergreen cards have been out for a year and from the most recent posts and other sources indicate open source drivers aren't an option for them either. The HD 5xxx cards and fglrx drivers aren't a good match either lacking features and complete with bugs. It doesn't matter how great the specs are for Linux users because ATI isn't dedicated to Linux support. They're not investing in it, period.

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by nanonyme View Post
                    I actually wonder if that has something to do with the fact that Linux has developed so far. I mean, maybe the people with hacker mentality aren't finding a well-documented platform as fun to hack as some completely unknown frontier? *shrug*
                    I think that the number of hackers has stayed pretty much the same during the last 10 years, or at least hasn't increased by a lot.

                    At the same time, the number of regular users has skyrocketed. The fact that Linux has 10x more users today does not mean that there are 10x as many hackers in the community, as most hackers were using Linux already 10 years ago.

                    Meanwhile, the expectations have really grown. I remember when playing an MP3 was a bit of an adventure, nowadays it has to not only play everything Windows can play, it has to do it 20% faster, and 3 years earlier. Linux went from being a hacker and idealist haven to being just another OS, and people expect it to function exactly like Windows, including running Windows games.

                    Graphics drivers are probably the most difficult part of an operating system, along with most of the kernel stuff -- and it is also the part that changes fastest. Modern GPUs are at least as complex as modern CPUs, but have many more radical redesigns all the time. I'm afraid that the FOSS GPU driver solutions will always lag behind the proprietary offerings for these reasons.

                    But I can live with that, as long as we get full feature support eventually, and it performs well. 75% of the Windows blob is fine.

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                    • #20
                      What it pretty much comes down to is that all of us got Linux for free. It's not like the pace of driver development is screwing you over. Nobody forced you to use Linux and then took away features after you did so. You always have the option to go plop down $200 on a Windows license and run that, after all.

                      I complain a lot about the state of things in Linux, but I don't tell people they have to do things the way I think is best because they owe me or anyone else. They don't. They should do some things differently if they want to succeed (where "success" is measured by the size of the Linux userbase vs the competition's userbase), but if people want to keep hacking away at a dead horse type of strategy, that's their right as the people doing all the work. I think they're silly and wrong and making a bad decision, but I still have no right to force them to do things my way.

                      You can bitch all you want about how you don't like some lacking parts of Linux, that's your right too. But in the end, your only options are: (a) pay money and switch to a proprietray OS, (b) jump in and help out with getting things done, or (c) wait an indeterminate amount of time for someone else to do it all. If you're particularly affluent, I suppose you also have the option of (d) fund a startup firm or existing consulting firm employing developers to hack on the parts of Linux you think need improvement under your direction.

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