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G-Homa WiFi Smart Meter ETH+XMR Mining Power Efficiency

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  • #11
    I guess that's why Germany has quite a high uptake of PV. Here in UK, the payback period is too long if you factor in the opportunity cost of the up-front capital being tied up.
    ​​​​​​

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    • #12
      Originally posted by Qaridarium

      nobody ever talks about? so i am writing article about mining for what?... I tell you what i write article about this topic to talk exactly about that.

      ""So, how many decades before you pay off your power generation equipment""

      right now we use our infrastructure who was there long time before we start mining business. and it is our heating system to heat our house do you really want to put this costs to our mining business calculation? in German law is written that all costs of this heating systems must be paid by the people who buy the hot water means the GAS of the powerplant and the service costs are all paid by the people who buy the hot water. because of this we can calculate the electric-energy-costs from the output as 0€ per kWh if you are very conservative you calculate the 0,03€ what we get if we send it into the power grid. the power plant is more than 10 years old this means the money we get if we send it into the power grid is very low. you need all this and even the battery system without mining business so why even want to calculate it?

      sure if you do all this only for your mining business you can calculate 16000€ for the 5,5kW GAS power plant and 5000-14000€ for a 6-16kWh Battery system and if you do not use the hot water and you just push it into the air then your energy costs are 3*5cent(gas costs) means 0.15€ per kWh because your Otto Engine power plant has ~33% efficiency -
      right now you can build small solar power plants for 0.12€ per kWh.
      and smal wind power plants for ~0.07€ per kWh.
      but for a perfect mix you want wind+solar+gas+battery system.

      0.26€ per kWh is the mining output for high performance hardware like VEGA-64
      if you use power-efficiency hardware instead like the VEGA-56 and instead of high clocked threadripper you use low-clocked EPYC
      then you mining output per kWh goes up to ~0.35 per kWh (I did not messure it but other people report good power effiency with vega-56+epyc hardware.)

      so in my point of view you can manage this operation profitable.

      Right now we have a investment in 7500€ in mining hardware and 207€ monthly output means after 36 months is the return of investment. (calculate like this is to simple to reflect reality i know)

      My brother is in the highest tax level with his Company you can get in germany means 45% so he get a 45% tax return of the 7500€ means 4500€/207€ =21 month for the return of investment.

      Not so bad in my point of view.
      You know that the difficulty to mine every cryptocurrency is increasing fast with time? In 36 months, your bunch of VEGA will not be efficient.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by Qaridarium
        the people who claim it does not bring profit are just misinformed and have no abstract imagination.

        in the past my mother pushed 800kWh power to the electric network grid for 0.03 € so the electric power bill company gives her 24€...
        for our 5kW-electrical-output heat and power combination power plant heating system

        right now we turn the 800kWh into Ethereum and Monero means it goes from 24€ to 208€ only because the power bill company only gives us 0.03€ per kWh we send into the power network and now we make cryptocurrencies out of it.

        and we do have a solar power plant with 10.2kWp to and right now we get 0,54€ to give it directly to the power grid but this contracts ends in 1-2 years (i have to check the papers on the exact date) and then we have like 7ḧours per day 10.2kWh means 71,4kWh per day and for this if the 0.54€ contract ends we only will get 0.03€ to like our heat and power power plant who also has endet contract.
        This means our solar power plant will make 557€ per month with mining.

        so in fact we turn 2942kWh we only get 0.03€ from the power bill company into 0.26€*2942 means 764.92€ by mining.

        and you say something like this is no profit. we even have more than 1 location than this. we have other houses with power plants to.
        It makes perfect sense in the winter if you have electric heaters, but gas is surely better than electric if we're talking about heating houses. I run continuous computing tasks in the winter to heat the living room, and I live in a silly electric-heated apartment unit, so I know it can work out.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by Qaridarium

          nobody ever talks about? so i am writing article about mining for what?... I tell you what i write article about this topic to talk exactly about that.

          ""So, how many decades before you pay off your power generation equipment""

          right now we use our infrastructure who was there long time before we start mining business. and it is our heating system to heat our house do you really want to put this costs to our mining business calculation? in German law is written that all costs of this heating systems must be paid by the people who buy the hot water means the GAS of the powerplant and the service costs are all paid by the people who buy the hot water. because of this we can calculate the electric-energy-costs from the output as 0€ per kWh if you are very conservative you calculate the 0,03€ what we get if we send it into the power grid. the power plant is more than 10 years old this means the money we get if we send it into the power grid is very low. you need all this and even the battery system without mining business so why even want to calculate it?
          Like I said, nobody is speaking honestly about these things. You jump defensively to point out how you can do X Y Z for free, without actually addressing the legitimate concerns that I stated.

          You do not get your power generation infrastructure for free. If you operate it for 20 years and it costs the same in maintenance as it did to purchase, and if you will use the entire power output of it for 36 months for mining, then you need to apply 30% of the initial cost of the infrastructure towards your system cost. If you can then use the heat it produces to heat your building for 6 months of the year, then by all means, take the cost of that heating and subtract it from the system cost. But avoiding stating these figures is just plain dishonest.

          Originally posted by Qaridarium
          sure if you do all this only for your mining business you can calculate 16000€ for the 5,5kW GAS power plant and 5000-14000€ for a 6-16kWh Battery system and if you do not use the hot water and you just push it into the air then your energy costs are 3*5cent(gas costs) means 0.15€ per kWh because your Otto Engine power plant has ~33% efficiency -
          right now you can build small solar power plants for 0.12€ per kWh.
          and smal wind power plants for ~0.07€ per kWh.
          but for a perfect mix you want wind+solar+gas+battery system.
          And those are all empty, meaningless words if you don't honestly ascribe the initial and ongoing costs of that power infrastructure to your system cost. So either assign that cost, or don't lie to us saying that you get it cheaper than you really do.

          Originally posted by Qaridarium
          0.26€ per kWh is the mining output for high performance hardware like VEGA-64
          if you use power-efficiency hardware instead like the VEGA-56 and instead of high clocked threadripper you use low-clocked EPYC
          then you mining output per kWh goes up to ~0.35 per kWh (I did not messure it but other people report good power effiency with vega-56+epyc hardware.)
          That is true today, but you can't guarantee that will continue to be true moving forward. In fact, you can be absolutely certain that your return per kWh will decline over the next 36 months, probably to half of that it is today, so again your time to pay the system off is false.

          Originally posted by Qaridarium
          so in my point of view you can manage this operation profitable.
          In your totally not fiscally accountable, self-deluding, and publically misleading point of view, yes absolutely. If we accept your "facts" without an common sense whatsoever.

          Originally posted by Qaridarium
          Right now we have a investment in 7500€ in mining hardware and 207€ monthly output means after 36 months is the return of investment. (calculate like this is to simple to reflect reality i know)
          And what about the cost of the power infrastructure which is providing your imaginary free power? Where's your costing for that? Where's your costing for the space it takes up? Where's your costing for the man-hours to set it all up and administer it? Where's your costing for the share of your accidental liability insurance, which you couldn't possibly operate this without? Where's the costing for the interest on the 7500€ for the 36 months that you purport to be able to pay it off in? Oh you have free money too? How about the interest on the money for the 30% portion of the cost of the power infrastructure, and the building space?

          Originally posted by Qaridarium
          My brother is in the highest tax level with his Company you can get in germany means 45% so he get a 45% tax return of the 7500€ means 4500€/207€ =21 month for the return of investment.
          I congratulate you on coming up with every excuse possible to justify your POV, but where are the answers to the questions I originally posed? Nowhere. Why? Because you are incapable of being honest with yourself, or us.

          Having said that, I think that if someone is going to try blockchain work "for profit", they should follow your example as a way to minimise their losses. You have definitely done a good job there. Respect for those things. Respect for the time you have invested, and the resources you have invested, and the desire to share what you feel is a win with the public. Those are all good things.
          Last edited by linuxgeex; 13 November 2017, 05:19 AM.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by Qaridarium

            yes sure right now i heat 3 rooms of our house with the heat from the miners this gives us another ~0.055€ per kWh because our gas contract costs us 5,5cent per kwh for heating.

            this means the miners are more profitable than the 0.26€ output it saves 0,05€ to in heating.
            More bad math / wishful thinking.

            According to you, you can get power for "~0.07€ - 0.12€" per kWh for wind or solar (apparently you can get that infrastructure for free by some magic so you can't include those costs of acquisition in your cost of power for heat any more than you can in your cost of power for mining. - do you see the hypocrisy here?)

            So you can't claim that you are "saving" 0.055€ per kWh on heating when you could have had that power for ~0.07€ - 0.12€ per kWh.

            Unless you want me to call you a liar.

            Liar.

            Comment


            • #16
              I reiterate. Just once I'd like to see some honesty in someone's statements about the profitability of their mining setup. Just once I'd like to see someone do it all in detail, nothing "for free", and just once I'd like to see it actually be profitable.

              And just once, I'd like to see a devout miner admit that they spent tons of money, time, and space, pissed off their spouse, ran up extra storage costs, made their kids do without, and lost money in the end despite doing everything to the best of anyone's ability. Because that is what really happens people.

              Qaridarium means well, but he's shown himself to be completely unreliable as far as honestly reporting his costs. For the love of God, don't listen to him if you actually need your money. If you have recreational income you want to blow in this very expensive lottery ticket, then yeah by all means give it a try... just don't blame anyone but yourself for the prize you win.

              Michael you are colouring yourself with Qaridarium's brush by carrying that article on your site.
              Last edited by linuxgeex; 13 November 2017, 05:41 AM.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by waxhead View Post
                I have never bothered with mining for crypto-currencies and honestly I do not see the point unless you are actually contributing something valuable back to the world. My computers run BOINC during their idle periods and I choose to support projects such as rosetta at home and dennis at home. As far as I know there is no crypto-currencies that at the same time support fighting diseases... or is there???!

                I think that "little computer people" like most of us hanging around here should perhaps think about the fact that we probably have a terrible diet, sit way to much, don't sleep enough, are probably overweight and don't get sufficient sun exposure and end up with vitamin D deficiency. The result can easily be diseases triggered by this entertaining lifestyle such as cancers, diabetes, heart failure and perhaps a blood cloth or two in your brain (of legs if you are lucky).

                I therefore think that the computing power that you don't use should better be directed towards medical research that can benefit us all instead of crypto-currencies. Folding/Rosetta/Dennis- at home is projects that probably will be of benefit to someone - perhaps even yourself!

                Computing is fun and it's gonna kill a lot of us anyway, so why not give something back!
                I'd also like to chime in for support of Gridcoin. It lets me contribute and I get something back at the same time.

                Comment


                • #18
                  Originally posted by Qaridarium

                  i will use gridcoin in future mining projects. the key point what is important for miners is that the money output need to be profitable.

                  if it is not profitable no one will buy hardware and let it run for this project.

                  and the rare hobby people who do not calculate with profit can not bring a big impact.
                  Well, the difference with Gridcoin is an investment in the coin is an investment in science... money is not the only way to profit.

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Originally posted by Qaridarium

                    well you are really not a power plant business insider because i told you real numbers based on the german https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...gy_Sources_Act


                    And you don't speak like a power plant business insider, or you would be honest about your power costs.

                    No amount of quoting industry standards changes the fact that you quoted different costs for heating power and mining power, preferring to source your heating power from a more expensive provider, then quoting a cheaper source for your mining, and then quoting the difference as a savings due to mining.

                    Anyone who deals in alternative power infrastructure, even small scale, knows that in reality you will use the cheaper source until you hit capacity and then you will use the more expensive source to meet demand, resulting in a blended net cost per kWh.

                    Your mining isn't done on the cheapest power. It's done on a share of your net power usage, and so it's not the cheapest and it's not the most expensive, it's somewhere in the middle. You can pretend that you are only using the cheapest power for your mining, but in reality there will be times when you could have powered down the mining equipment to give that power to a different load that you're paying the higher rate on, and therefore the mining equipment is contributing to a need for more expensive power and deserves a proportionate share in that cost.

                    I shouldn't need to explain that to an "industry insider".

                    It also doesn't change the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the real costs that go into your mining:

                    The costs of the equipment
                    o this you did report relatively well.

                    The costs of the training and labour to execute the deployment
                    o this you entirely skipped. Apparently your labour and education are free. The readers of this site will be grateful for you to fly over and do it all for them. I'm sure you can get free airfare too.

                    The costs of the location / space / shelter for the equipment
                    o This you entirely skipped. Apparently square footage of cool/dry datacenter space is free for you. Google would like to move in.

                    The costs of the utilities, insurance, and maintenance of all of the above normalized to the share of utilisation of the mining setup.
                    o completely skipped, blipped over, utterly failed to even acknowledge even though I keep raising it... like you think I will just accept your lies and go away if you keep pretending that these costs don't exist.

                    However I am on a mission to protect the public. So long as you keep holding up a pretence of legitimacy, I will be here to shoot you down until you choose to be transparent with all costs.
                    Last edited by linuxgeex; 22 November 2017, 02:03 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Originally posted by Qaridarium
                      you just can not accept that the stuff is for free. why should i calculate costs into my mining business who do not exist? only to make a perfect business plan for you?
                      Nothing in this world is for free - not even the adoration of our parents when we are born. There's a huge, indirect, un-obvious cost. Our parents are a part of Society, and that Society has very real costs associated with it. Our future is sold to that Society, and we pay for it all our lives. Except a very few who live on the street and refuse to participate, die young, or kill themselves. Everything has a cost.

                      the world does not work like you want it. you do stuff step by step means not the end first and mining is the "end".
                      I'll tell you what I agree with. It's one thing and only one thing.

                      You use power sources to heat your building. Using electric power to heat a building with electric baseboard heaters is stupid and expensive and a waste. Mining with that power gives you something of value "for free" compared to doing that colossally stupid thing. You still get the heat and you also get the Cryptocurrency, for the same cost. That is a better deal than using electric heat, but it is still a very poor deal.

                      Your mining will not heat your building as efficiently as a heat pump. If you build a solar farm and use the power to heat your building by mining, you will also not heat your building as efficiently as if you used PV panels to pump waste heat from the panels (about 80% of the light entering the PV panels is converted into heat instead of power) into the building. So a hybrid heatpump/PV panel would cost about 40% as much to heat your building as your mining setup, even after you consider the effects of selling the mining product.

                      i get it for free and this is german LAW.... you just have a wrong concept of this power plant.
                      For tax purposes, sure, you don't have to declare it as income. I bet if you talk to a tax lawyer you will find that your loophole isn't really a loophole and if you make more than a certain amount they will still require you to declare it as taxable income.

                      This is by law not a power plant by LAW but a heating system. this means the people who buy the hot water pay the GAS and the Service of the engine by LAW and tax deduction of the investment of the power plant is NOT within the mining business but in the Rental business of housing by LAW.
                      So by LAW The electrical output of this power plant is a garbage you get for free.
                      So this means technically you have a point but by german law you have no point.
                      This all is not dishonesty it is just Obey to the German law and order.
                      I never claimed that you were lying about the resulting products, or the taxability of those products.

                      I continue to claim that you are lying about the costs of starting it all in the first place, and that your accounting is wishful/sloppy at best.

                      According to you, human labour has no cost, shelter has no cost, and power infrastructure has no cost.

                      The only things you are prepared to acknowledge have costs are the mining equipment itself and the kWh of power you are using. You also make some interesting claims about profitability based on variable claims of relative costs of kWh and draw conclusions based on inconsistent cost comparisons, which invalidates all your conclusions.

                      If you want to be taken seriously, be serious.

                      If you are being honest then say "This is just a hobby and here's my results in my free time, ignoring costs of my personal labour and storage space, based on my average kWh utility costs. And hey I got some tax breaks too." That much is fine. It's the rest that is BS. Especially passing yourself off as an industry insider and suggesting that this is a good strategy for average consumers.
                      Last edited by linuxgeex; 22 November 2017, 02:42 PM.

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