Roccat Open-Source Project To End New Linux Device Support

[aht0]

Ok, so do I understand this correctly: the games need to have support for these mice and only games on Windows support it, so to use it one needs to run Windows anyway?

The article and some of the comments seemed to indicate that it would also work for games on Linux, maybe even doesn't require the game to have specific support, but maybe that's the source of my misunderstanding?

It depends a lot. They would work on Linux games, at minimum no worse than any other mice. Problem would be the extra buttons which have programmable functions. Would Linux be able to see/use these or not. If yes, would game itself see/be able to use these or not. Wild Assed Guess is, that extra buttons are sending some sort of extra codes to Linux you'd have to make use of.

Programming is done by ROCCAT software which is Windows only. And which one guy tried to port over to Linux but quit.

Check this pic. Would you have any use for this thing next to your laptop? It's pointing out anything you could "click".

I see.
My comments were based on the assumption that normal users wouldn't do that or have that kind of setup options, but if normal gamers do then that will mitigate the problem somewhat.
Cheers,
_

Dunno if "normal" gamers do it but many I know tinker a lot with their hardware. It's like car people who spend most of the weekends in their garages.

It tends to add up over time. Stuff gets left over after upgrades. Some you may sell on "aftermarket", some not. Sooner or later gamers try to modify BIOS (permanent overclock or changed fan profile without extra software running-some games get unstable with MSI Afterburner running) of their GPU or try beating up few more fps tinkering with a motherboard/CPU.

For example, it was possible to "unlock" RAM on Radeon RX480 cards. 4GB models unlocked to 8GB because extra RAM was just locked in software, not mechanically/electrically disconnected. Why not do it, when it's possible?

Enough chances like this and one might start wondering, what ELSE could be changed/tweaked/modified. And so it goes..

[anda_skoa]

It depends a lot. They would work on Linux games, at minimum no worse than any other mice. Problem would be the extra buttons which have programmable functions. Would Linux be able to see/use these or not. If yes, would game itself see/be able to use these or not. Wild Assed Guess is, that extra buttons are sending some sort of extra codes to Linux you'd have to make use of.

Well it depends on what the device sends.
If it is something a USB HID device would send, like a mouse button or key event, then there should be no problem.
Otherwise the end software itself would need to interact with the device directly.
Is this what games do on Windows?

Programming is done by ROCCAT software which is Windows only. And which one guy tried to port over to Linux but quit.

Then what was the "needs windows for initial setup" about?

Check this pic. Would you have any use for this thing next to your laptop? It's pointing out anything you could "click".

Depends on what "programmable" means.
If the device can be made to emit key strokes, maybe even sequences of keys, then this could be useful for anything that is mouse input centric but also has keyboard short cuts, e.g. games, browsers, CAD.

If it requires support in the programs themselves then it would only be interesting if you had such a program.

Cheers,
_

[aht0]

Well it depends on what the device sends.
If it is something a USB HID device would send, like a mouse button or key event, then there should be no problem.
Otherwise the end software itself would need to interact with the device directly.
Is this what games do on Windows?
Then what was the "needs windows for initial setup" about?

Depends on what "programmable" means.
If the device can be made to emit key strokes, maybe even sequences of keys, then this could be useful for anything that is mouse input centric but also has keyboard short cuts, e.g. games, browsers, CAD.

If it requires support in the programs themselves then it would only be interesting if you had such a program.

Cheers,
_

I told it before multiple times. Setup utility is for fine tuning (defining particulars). Without using setup utility, what you've got is just one expensive mouse. With three buttons and a scroll.
Want to read more about it go check http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages..._review,6.html
It's more than I can be bother to type.

Another question. Would you be ready to pay bunch of money for it?
for example https://www.amazon.com/Roccat-Modula...ds=roccat+nyth

https://www.amazon.com/Roccat-Kone-XTD-Customization-Gaming/dp/B00AODXYRY/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1481815655&sr=8-9&keywords=roccat+kone

https://www.amazon.com/Roccat-Sensor-Laser-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B00LVQTCF6/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1481815716&sr=8-4&keywords=roccat+tyon

Unless you are, this discussion is pretty pointless.

[anda_skoa]

I told it before multiple times.

If you quote a posting in full it is hard to tell which if the points you are addressing with which parts of your reply.

Setup utility is for fine tuning (defining particulars). Without using setup utility, what you've got is just one expensive mouse. With three buttons and a scroll.

Since that doesn't seem to address my first question I assume it addresses the second.
So it does not need a separate Windows installation for setup.

I guess all the standard buttons work as well, e.g. DPI changes, volume control, browser back/forward, etc.

Want to read more about it go check http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages..._review,6.html
It's more than I can be bother to type.

From the screenshots it doesn't look like it can anything really useful like configurable button presses, but then the article is pretty vague.

Another question. Would you be ready to pay bunch of money for it?

Obviously that depends on what it can do, they doe sound moderately useful.
I guess it also depends on the default configuration since that is the only one you get apparently.

Unless you are, this discussion is pretty pointless.

Not necessarily, after all we've clarified that I wouldn't need to have two operating systems, one for configuration and one for actual usage.

Cheers,
_

[aht0]

If you quote a posting in full it is hard to tell which if the points you are addressing with which parts of your reply.

I have, for the most part been splitting it into chunks small enough. Read them over.

Since that doesn't seem to address my first question I assume it addresses the second.
So it does not need a separate Windows installation for setup.

Setup utility exists only for Windows OS. Make your own conclusions for once. There is no way for setting this thing up outside "basic" mouse functions without. Can you understand the simple principle?

I guess all the standard buttons work as well, e.g. DPI changes, volume control, browser back/forward, etc.

Left, right, scroll would work. DPI would work if it had dedicated button. And you would be getting "by default" setting which is unusable.

Pray tell me, just how would you be setting the rest up in the first place without using the setup utility? Which is only supported on Windows?

Have you ever used DPI changes? There is no use for this outside gaming. In-game it's used in shooters, you switch from close range weapon sights to long range gun with a huge scope. There you need to change the DPI, or the zoom of the scope amplifies every small movement you are doing with the mouse. The sight would jump all-over.

It's identical to real life, take binoculars/monoculars or something with big-enough zoom and you are going to need something that stabilizes it, or your movements make picture extremely jumpy.

Obviously that depends on what it can do, they doe sound moderately useful.
I guess it also depends on the default configuration since that is the only one you get apparently.

for volume and other shit your laptop has Fn shortcut keys for chrissake. You want to tell me that you would want to buy 100USD mouse because of it? If they happen to be in inconvenient locations, perhaps you should have paid attention to it before you bought the darn thing?

Not necessarily, after all we've clarified that I wouldn't need to have two operating systems, one for configuration and one for actual usage.

We haven't clarified a thing it seems.

[anda_skoa]

I have, for the most part been splitting it into chunks small enough. Read them over.

Yes, usually it is very well structured, just the last comment was using full quote and the respective disconnect.

Setup utility exists only for Windows OS. Make your own conclusions for once.

Sure, not the first company with limited engineering know-how.

There is no way for setting this thing up outside "basic" mouse functions without. Can you understand the simple principle?

Of course. Some "advanced" setup seems to require some special purpose setup program.
Way better than the original impression that the initial setup required that.

Left, right, scroll would work. DPI would work if it had dedicated button. And you would be getting "by default" setting which is unusable.

I am afraid I don't follow.
Are you saying that the default setup is unusable? I would find that hard to believe, why would a vendor ship a device in an unusable state?

Pray tell me, just how would you be setting the rest up in the first place without using the setup utility? Which is only supported on Windows?

I am not talking about any additional setup, just the default setup.
A device with that many buttons will not just have left/middle/right configured by default, it will have back/forward, volume, etc available as well, no?

Have you ever used DPI changes? There is no use for this outside gaming.

Additional to gaming change in monitor setup as well.
When working with a high DPI laptop screen in one configuration and two lower DPI screens in another it is not uncommon to also switch mouse settings.

for volume and other shit your laptop has Fn shortcut keys for chrissake.

And on my external keyboard. But if you are in a mouse centric workflow it might be faster to use those buttons.
After all why would you have a mouse with additional buttons and the capability of mapping some for volumne control if nobody found it useful.

You want to tell me that you would want to buy 100USD mouse because of it?

Apparently there is a use case for that, otherwise that wouldn't be possible, no?
Interaction always depends on the workflow, right?
If you have a very mouse centric workflow that also requires changing volumne, why not?

Back/forward sounds pretty useful for almost everybody.

Really configurable shortcuts would of course be awesome, there might be other vendors who even have that.

If they happen to be in inconvenient locations, perhaps you should have paid attention to it before you bought the darn thing?

Convenience is a very personal thing, but I would assume that a 100USD mouse had a default configuration that makes at least some sense, no?

We haven't clarified a thing it seems.

Don't you think so?
We have come from the assumption that a device would need a separate OS installation for initial setup, while now it seems that the device is usable without.
One of the links you've posted even made it pretty clear that the "advanced" setup was an extra download, thus implying that the device must be usable without.
On top of that it looks like the "advanced" setup is a normal application not a driver, so it should even work e.g in Wine.

Cheers,
_

[aht0]

Convenience is a very personal thing, but I would assume that a 100USD mouse had a default configuration that makes at least some sense, no?

I am not talking about any additional setup, just the default setup.
A device with that many buttons will not just have left/middle/right configured by default, it will have back/forward, volume, etc available as well, no?

After all why would you have a mouse with additional buttons and the capability of mapping some for volumne control if nobody found it useful.

Extra1, Extra2,Extra3 are terribly useful. "blank" buttons outside game. But the games recognize them and you can assign them activity. Bt default they are "extras". Want to assign volume control, use setup utility first. Extra button allows faster access to ingame function you would otherwise have to hunt down from keyboard. Often the difference and convenience of the access are critical.

Example.
Left mouse - fire
Middle mouse - bring up weapon, aim down the sight
Right mouse - jump/open parachute
Scroll mouse - switch through equipment/weapons.

Now, with generic mouse I would be limited to this. With gaming mice I can add
Extra 1 - change sight mode (switch between zoom levels, thermal/infrared modes, iron sights)
Extra 2 - melee attack. When you need THIS you need it bad and yesterday
Extra 3 - change firing mode. Single/burst/full auto. Tactically very important.

Without gaming mice I would have to access these functions only by keyboard which is much slower and cumbersome. And I would have no ability to change DPI on-the-fly.

browser and other shit is just secondary stuff, people may play stuff that have/need constant access to browsers (guides in MMORPGS, or survival games like DayZ). You may need to browse often while playing. Waste of mouse buttons IMO, you can hit Backspace for going to previous page or Arrow Right for going one forward.

Sure, not the first company with limited engineering know-how.

Utter bullshit. Roccat is producing peripherals exclusively designed for gaming and gamers. Until Linux gaming is nothing but marginal niche and PR, they have no reason putting ANY effort into supporting Linux.

Of course. Some "advanced" setup seems to require some special purpose setup program

Don't twist my words. Anything OUTSIDE generic mouse support needs to be set up by special purpose setup program.

Additional to gaming change in monitor setup as well.
When working with a high DPI laptop screen in one configuration and two lower DPI screens in another it is not uncommon to also switch mouse settings.

Yeah, if you used 4K screen with 1024x768 screen.. difference is pretty marginal otherwise. You keep trying to bring up corner cases.

And on my external keyboard. But if you are in a mouse centric workflow it might be faster to use those buttons.

Getting multimedia keyboard with convenient extra-button layout comes 2-4x cheaper. Just WHY would you be changing volume all the time?

Inside the game it may be needed but it's even there usually much more convenient using buttons of your 7.1 headset. For example in close combat, you may want to increase volume to hear enemy steps.

Interaction always depends on the workflow, right?
If you have a very mouse centric workflow that also requires changing volumne, why not?

What fucking workflow? ROCCAT products are designed for entertainment, like gaming. Visit roccat.org and try to tell me different.

Sensible person uses tools for it's designed purpose.

Back/forward sounds pretty useful for almost everybody.

BackSpace/ArrowRight. Don't even have to move hand on keyboard. Well, except if you have tiny hands. And use Windows /smirk.

[anda_skoa]

Without gaming mice I would be chasing the latter three binds over the keyboard all the time, which is unacceptable amount slower.

I personally prefer mouse plus keyboard, dual wield so to speak
I guess with a preference for the keyboard if the action is not directly related to the thing I am pointing at.
Obviously being a software engineer and typing a lot each day has given me very good muscle memory so that might explain that preference a bit.

Utter bullshit.

Maybe.
It is my base assumption when there is a USB connected peripheral and the host side software is not portable.
But I am of course affected by being a professional in the software domain, having seen way to many collegues and companies who wouldn't even manage to do network communication in a non platform specific way.

Roccat is producing peripherals exclusively designed for gaming and gamers.

That doesn't necessarily imply that they have anyone with half a clule in the software department, just that they can do hardware and maybe low-level micro controller coding.

Until Linux gaming is nothing but marginal niche and PR, they have no reason putting ANY effort into supporting Linux.

We are talking about the 21st century here, communicating over a industry standard communication channel (USB). You would need to put extra effort in to not make the host side multiplatform on the library level.
Even UI frontend is easily doable across desktop platforms unless one has made unfortunate technology choices at the turn of the century and failed to upgrade ever since.

Which does happen more often than one might think, hence my base assumption of lack of competence until proven otherwise.

Don't twist my words. Anything OUTSIDE generic mouse support needs to be set up by special purpose setup program.

Are you sure? Why would the vendor not ship the device with a default configuration for the most common features?
I would have assumed that it would at least have buttons mapped for back/forward configured by default, maybe even increase/decrease DPI.

But I don't have such a device, if you are saying it can really only do three buttons and wheel than I will have to believe you

Yeah, if you used 4K screen with 1024x768 screen.. difference is pretty marginal otherwise. You keep trying to bring up corner cases.

While I have only ever needed DPI changes with games, I am not assuming there can't be any other use cases.
Screen DPI values can easily range from around 100 to around 300, certain tasks might require higher precision than others, etc.
E.g. low precision desktop usage, high precision CAD/Layouting usage.

Getting multimedia keyboard with convenient extra-button layout comes 2-4x cheaper. Just WHY would you be changing volume all the time?

Volumne control was one of the example they had on the screenshots of the article you linked to, so I can only guess that there is a use case for it.
Maybe for quick increasing volumne when spoken dialogs happen or quickly lowering the game's volumne when you need sound from other sources.

Maybe it just looked good on screenshots, who knows.

Inside the game it may be needed but it's even there usually much more convenient using buttons of your 7.1 headset.

That's mainly for overall volumne and it requires hands off the main input devices.
I guess the ideal interface would be a wheel on the other side of the mouse, need to check if there is such a mouse!

For example in close combat, you may want to increase volume to hear enemy steps.

Right, that also sounds like a good use case.

So maybe not just for the screenshots after all

What fucking workflow? ROCCAT products are designed for entertainment, like gaming.

Not sure what you mean, games have very specific workflows, you've described several yourself.
Switching between ranged and close combat, normal and high precision aiming, etc.

One potential non gaming workflow I imagined regarding the volumne control possibility was audio/video processing.
If the device had general key stroke capability there would be a lot more possibilities where such a device would be effective.

Sensible person uses tools for it's designed purpose.

Absolutely.
Wouldn't want to use the mouse for text input even if it has tons of keys.
A bit disappointing that one can't apparently configure arbitrary key strokes for buttons, would make these mice way more useful.

Steam and Origin game clients make intensive use of Internet Explorer libraries. In some games you can access Origin ingame. Thus some "bare" browser functions. Never needed this shit since Backspace and Arror Right works same way while not wasting buttons of the mouse.

Back/forward sounded useful to me even for the non-game context, everybody uses browsers a lot these days.
Hence my assumption that at least these would be configured by default, as they would be universally useful for really any user.

Cheers,
_

[aht0]

I personally prefer mouse plus keyboard, dual wield so to speak
I guess with a preference for the keyboard if the action is not directly related to the thing I am pointing at.
Obviously being a software engineer and typing a lot each day has given me very good muscle memory so that might explain that preference a bit.

Found one short clip of my game play

- Battlefield 3, Team Deathmatch mode/. https://www.twitch.tv/shaqan/v/21069086

EDIT: another 2 short clips from newer game of same series:

- Battlefield Hardline, Hotwire mode/ https://plays.tv/video/58176432e4ec0...clip?from=user
- Battlefield Hardline, Team Deathmatch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPgDCdKzIQA

First clip made on FX8350/GTX670/8GB 1833Mhz RAM (single channel
Second/third are clips made using Xeon W3690/GTX670/16GB 1333Mhz ECC RAM (dual channel, did not find third identical RAM)

Take minute free to watch it through.Quality is like it is, crap. Used screen had oddball resolution (not 1080p but 1050p with 1ms response time which allowed playing without v-sync and have much higher fps than 60 without tearing) at the time and conversion to 720p nuked the quality. Remember that recording dragged FPS downwards, it was generally 120-150 without recording, thus I recorded rarely.

Now think:
- Could you really use laptop for this and have it smooth and lagg free? Smoother the environment in computer, more likely you are going to best the enemies. Majority of the enemies probably played at 60fps.
- How much reaction time would you have left in your hands while playing and meeting an enemy or several? Would scrambling around the keyboard searching for various buttons be reasonable and timely? Mind you, all enemies are humans playing online not computer controlled AI.Neither game has bots.
- Would using more than one screen be feasible or it would result in a rather serious attention saturation? I used 7.1 directional sound and watched also mini-map in the bottom left corner which in itself meant splitting attention between three distinct sources of information.
- How did I move. How it feels to you. Did I use keyboard alone, mouse alone, or keyboard AND mouse?
- Would I had reason or time for browsing web during game? Whole rounds were pure fighting (1/3rd clip) with a goal of killing as many as possible or chasing/controlling/destroying certain objectives and killing opponents only when they appeared (2nd clip)

Sadly I have no recorded footage from changing DPI ingame.

It is my base assumption when there is a USB connected peripheral and the host side software is not portable.
But I am of course affected by being a professional in the software domain, having seen way to many collegues and companies who wouldn't even manage to do network communication in a non platform specific way.
That doesn't necessarily imply that they have anyone with half a clule in the software department, just that they can do hardware and maybe low-level micro controller coding.

We are talking about the 21st century here, communicating over a industry standard communication channel (USB). You would need to put extra effort in to not make the host side multiplatform on the library level.
Even UI frontend is easily doable across desktop platforms unless one has made unfortunate technology choices at the turn of the century and failed to upgrade ever since.

Which does happen more often than one might think, hence my base assumption of lack of competence until proven otherwise.

As I see it, company's final goal is to profit and it assumes doing nothing that is not beneficial to this goal. There is no logical reason for developing such software even for Mac, even less for Linux. Relative amount of gamers on particular platform/OS would define the need.

Are you sure? Why would the vendor not ship the device with a default configuration for the most common features?
I would have assumed that it would at least have buttons mapped for back/forward configured by default, maybe even increase/decrease DPI.
But I don't have such a device, if you are saying it can really only do three buttons and wheel than I will have to believe you

Define the "most common". Different habits of different players and untold amount of different game with different setups. Leaving extra buttons just defined as extras by default makes the most sense. What I gave you as examples are categorized as "first person shooters". There are countless variations (from close-to-real-life combat simulators to cartoon-shooters) to the genre but it's what makes most use of custom gaming mouses.

MMOs and MMORPGs also may make use of custom mouses but generally only when they contain PvP element (person vs person fighting), otherwise generic mice suffices. Some MMOs have custom mice manufactured just for that particular game, etc. It's a big market.

While I have only ever needed DPI changes with games, I am not assuming there can't be any other use cases.
Screen DPI values can easily range from around 100 to around 300, certain tasks might require higher precision than others, etc.
E.g. low precision desktop usage, high precision CAD/Layouting usage.

I used AutoCad for work ages a go but as far as I remember, there were alternative ways for achieving such goals.

Volumne control was one of the example they had on the screenshots of the article you linked to, so I can only guess that there is a use case for it.
Maybe for quick increasing volumne when spoken dialogs happen or quickly lowering the game's volumne when you need sound from other sources.

Different games, different needs. Games I play have sliders under "settings" for different sound sources. Like ingame VOIP sound level. External VOIP programs have shortcut keys for disable/mute/change.

That's mainly for overall volumne and it requires hands off the main input devices.
I guess the ideal interface would be a wheel on the other side of the mouse, need to check if there is such a mouse!

I've used NUM+/NUM- for this, easy to access on the side of keyboard. Wheel is far too useful for wasting it messing with sound.

Absolutely.
Wouldn't want to use the mouse for text input even if it has tons of keys.
A bit disappointing that one can't apparently configure arbitrary key strokes for buttons, would make these mice way more useful.

You could achieve the latter, using AutoIT3. I've even done it for functions that some game did not allow binding under mouse. Just don't go asking help about games in AutoIT3 forum. They are just going to ban you. But it's usable for this purpose and also for simple programs and windows automation up to pretty complicated levels. It's interpreted like Python, somewhere between functional programming language and scripting but compiled executables are self-contained and creating GUI or manipulating Windows GUIs through it is quite simple.

Back/forward sounded useful to me even for the non-game context, everybody uses browsers a lot these days.
Hence my assumption that at least these would be configured by default, as they would be universally useful for really any user.
Cheers,

I've seen some "office" mice with such buttons. Such would be far more useful for your needs.

[Darksurf]

Oh man, I hope I didn't screw up. I love my Roccat Gear. I have 2 Ryos MK Pro (1 work, 1 Home) a roccat lua mouse, and a roccat KAVE XTD headset and they all work perfectly in linux. So I just bought a roccat leadr mouse for home and took my lua to work. please tell me someone picked up this project.