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Failing A PCIe 5.0 NVMe SSD In Less Than 3 Minutes Without Extra Cooling

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by MorrisS. View Post
    In your opinion, will copper ever replaced by optical link connectors?


    Long term maybe short term no. PCie 5.0 over optical is only just being validated. Current day optical tech for PCIe would equal even more heat deal with than using copper.

    Each generation of PCIe over copper has had a shorter and shorter transmission distance before needing signal integrity things this is where the maybe comes in. At some point it may simply not be cost effective to use copper and change to optical to get longer and cheaper transmission range.

    Leave a comment:


  • MorrisS.
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Failing A PCIe 5.0 NVMe SSD In Less Than 3 Minutes Without Extra Cooling
    This is a hardware issue with poor documentation to warn users of it.

    PCIe 5.0 SSD controllers generate more heat. With out enough airflow/cooling they are either going to have to clock down to the point you might has well be using a PCIe 4.0 SSD instead. Case with this one it did not clock down so it hit the SSD instant stop temperature..

    SSD in general if the NAND chips get to 80C they have to stop. NAND chips hotter than 80C you are going to destroy NAND chips so your data is lost if the tempeture is not brought under control.. Yes a PCIe 4.0/3.0 SSD if you heat the NAND chips to 80+ they will also instant stop dead.

    SSD have strict heat limits.

    In your opinion, will copper ever replaced by optical link connectors?

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by MorrisS. View Post
    Is it a hardware issue or a driver/software issue?
    Failing A PCIe 5.0 NVMe SSD In Less Than 3 Minutes Without Extra Cooling
    This is a hardware issue with poor documentation to warn users of it.

    PCIe 5.0 SSD controllers generate more heat. With out enough airflow/cooling they are either going to have to clock down to the point you might has well be using a PCIe 4.0 SSD instead. Case with this one it did not clock down so it hit the SSD instant stop temperature..

    SSD in general if the NAND chips get to 80C they have to stop. NAND chips hotter than 80C you are going to destroy NAND chips so your data is lost if the tempeture is not brought under control.. Yes a PCIe 4.0/3.0 SSD if you heat the NAND chips to 80+ they will also instant stop dead.

    SSD have strict heat limits.

    Leave a comment:


  • MorrisS.
    replied
    Is it a hardware issue or a driver/software issue?

    Leave a comment:


  • Markore
    replied
    One more reason to get 2 or more drives for your data and use at least RAID1 and some checksumming filesystem/volume manager like BTRFS and OpenZFS.
    And yes, every FS will fail to protect your data if you use Intel chipsets and CPUs without ECC RAM and motherboard with ECC support.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by ChrisRamseyer View Post
    oiaohm​ - You are on the wrong page. Please check the product page:



    "*SSD cooling required. Check your motherboard for details."

    The FAQ page has the install instruction video.
    Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


    Notice the video does not include SSD cooling required just put it under a heat sink and you are done. Of course that may have no airflow.

    Then all the pictures on the page you quoted not one show it with heatsink or note that this only works with suitable airflow.

    If person does not go down overview that most people don't and click straight on the "TECH SPECS" nothing there warns warns user of the cooling issue.

    FAQ the install video, the "TECH SPECS" the page you pointed to none of them warn about having enough airflow. Motherboard recommendations for airflow over a M.2 slot in most cases if for a PCIe 4.0 M.2 as you said the PCIe 5.0 controller runs hotter so we have a problem.

    Corsairs instructions are not consistent and not where they need to be for the MP700.

    SSD cooling hand waving on to motherboard makers is not good thing.


    Fits directly onto most motherboards

    Scroll down the page where you find that warning and notice the above line. Now you have problem most motherboards instructions are for PCie 4.0 SSD that generate less heat.

    Tech change over points extra instructions to users are required at times.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChrisRamseyer
    replied
    oiaohm​ - You are on the wrong page. Please check the product page:



    "*SSD cooling required. Check your motherboard for details."

    Leave a comment:


  • andrei_me
    replied
    Hi ChrisRamseyer thanks for the update, that's why I love Phoronix forum, we get to know directly from involved parties 🙂

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by ChrisRamseyer View Post
    Corsair does say on the product page that a heatsink is required on the MP700. I don't know what the retail packaging says, I haven't seen it first hand.

    Yes. A dedicated cooling solution is required for optimal performance. We recommend utilizing your motherboard's NVMe slots which provide heat dissipation with their built-in heatsink. If you are using a custom watercooling solution we recommend our XM2 waterblock.
    The wording Corsair does not say required. Optimal performance and recommend does not equal required. Yes built-in motherboard heatsink could be basically useless other than adding thermal mass(just delaying the crash) due to absolutely poor airflow above it.. This could be useless is that lots of cases is going to be useless. In fact the block of metal heat sink may be worse because in low airflow may get the nand chips above the critical 80C even sooner than having no heatsink.

    Yes that write up the user is perfect right to think the SSD is going to behave like old SSD and just thermal throttle and not be putting self at any major risk or instantly shut down.

    I have not seen the retail packaging but the Corsair website on the product does not give be confidence that what would be written on it is really suitable either. Basically the note about airflow required at this stage has not been passed on to end users and absolutely need to be.

    Originally posted by ChrisRamseyer View Post
    As for M.2 and fan control, many flagship motherboards have 4-pin headers close and even right next to the Gen5 M.2 slot. It won't be long before the onboard fan control supports reading the temp of the SSD. I'm going to propose that in my next meeting with the CPU companies.

    This could help with existing M.2

    I still think there need to be thought to active cooling built on to the SSD itself and controlled by the SSD itself. Yes it would cost to use airjet technology but this technology is suited to non ideal air conditions and it only 3mm of thickness. Airjet technology is not like a block of metal its not going to be conduction to spread heat from controller to nand just is really effective at getting the most heat possible into air so good in low airflow areas..

    There is still the question "if the controller of the PCIe 5.0 SSD is altered to throttle at what level of cooling does it performance drop under a PCIe 4.0 SSD"

    Another problem there is no end user tool/instructions for PC users to gauge how much airflow they have at any location in their case at this stage. Yes a calibrated ribbons on a stick use to be used with old sun servers to see if the airflow was right. If the ribbon was either holding against gravity or was blowing around the location had enough airflow. Use to be good with the sun servers to detect if someone had not fitted the airflow guides back into the sun servers correctly. Not the worlds most complex tool required but users would need the tool(stick with calibrated ribbon) and the instructions on how to use it..

    Yes this could be buy 5 dollar airflow flag/ribbon before buying a PCIe 5.0 put it on your PCIe 4.0 SSD that person is thinking of upgrading and if the flag does not show enough airflow either stick to PCIe 4.0 and under or alter case airflow until it right.

    The extra heat of PCIe 5.0 ssd controllers bring new set of problems that people building and testing systems don't really have the tools to deal with and the documentation with this early product are not good enough to warn users of this problem and you can see this by the tech reviewer problems.

    Do remember lot of people order their parts online as well so the website being correct is absolutely critical because they would have paid for the item and had it shipped to them before they see the retail package.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChrisRamseyer
    replied
    The problem is PCIe lanes. Everything runs off of them but there is such a small number of them on consumer boards. That is why I personally run workstation boards, simply to have the number of lanes I want as a user. Then again, back in the day I also ran dual socket systems. SCSI RAID with a ton of drives is what got me into storage so deep. The PC market is just like everything else. Turn it into a commodity for scale. (This is a personal comment and not one that should tie back to my work).

    Leave a comment:

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