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Raspberry Pi Announces The $50 High Quality Camera

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  • #31
    Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
    What's the point of getting such an overkill sensor then? Sure, digital zoom is nice, but nowadays we have phones with zoom lenses. If you don't use digital zoom, you're basically just paying extra for a gimmick.
    Meanwhile, keep in mind that phone cameras use a rolling shutter, as opposed to a progressive shutter. That is avery undesirable effect. The more pixels you have, the worse that effect becomes. If you crop the sensor down to something like 1080p to minimize the rolling shutter effect, again, you're defeating the purpose of having such a sensor.

    Bear in mind that a 100MP DSLR costs between $10k-$50k. That's not an unreasonable price point for what you're getting (though I sure as hell wouldn't buy one).
    Didn't one of the old Sony Ericsson K-series phones come with an 8MP physical zoom camera at a time when most phones were bumbling around with 1MP? But that was featurephone time, not smartphone...

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ssokolow View Post

      And yet you're the one attacking people's character while brent comes across as making calm, rational points about the disconnect between expectations set by marketing decisions and reality.
      And yet one more...

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      • #33
        Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
        I never really understood the point of the camera interface or the dedicated camera port and hardware on the rPi when it's got standard USB ports that you can use to connect any USB webcam you'd want to.

        If we were talking about a much lower end SBC or a microcontroller I could understand this, but for the rPi this just sounds like feature creep causing redundant functionality.
        Umm if you were in the tinker market and wanted to use some nice sensors, especially at a lower cost, using MIPI-CSI modules instead of USB ones is probably quite useful. Lower cost SBC generally aren't going to support as high of a bandwidth of the interface, nor provide an ISP(I don't even know if the RPi does? At least I'm pretty sure the 3 and earlier had specific GPU driver to handle the responsibility). You can find more expensive SBC than the Pi 4 that provide this camera interface, even nvidia Jetson which is $99.

        USB equivalent products tend to cost more, mostly for the convenience and added cost to being more of a consumer product(proper enclosure and all that, less knowledge required). Definitely not redundant functionality by including MIPI-CSI.


        Originally posted by DoMiNeLa10 View Post
        I hope someone will make an adapter that makes this camera module usable with standard PCs (interface to something like USB). It would be a nice "high-quality" webcam for people who livestream, and potentially other applications
        You can get similar if what you're after is 4k webcam, look at Logitech Brio:

        https://www.logitech.com/en-nz/product/brio

        It'll cost more, but that's because they're throwing in the enclosure / packaging / and all that other stuff to target a consumer. Might include some additional hardware for processing before sending over USB too.

        I'm sure people will come up with guides on how to DIY with this RPi camera if you want something cheaper, and in time with enough sales this sensor becomes cheap enough that it'll appear in cheaper webcam products too

        Seems to be selling one product in alibaba for example at about $10 per module(bare sensor is like $1 or so):

        https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...7b3622dbc3JrrK

        I don't know how much of the budget goes into actual sensor/module purchase for typical webcam products, but I guess this one is a few dollars too many for most.

        Originally posted by DoMiNeLa10 View Post
        maybe using it to make 3D scans of objects, where computing power and memory of RPi might not suffice.
        You'd probably want something else for real-time than this sensor. It should be fine for photogrammetry with stills I guess, which you don't process on the RPi hardware, but this has been a pretty common cheap DIY approach with RPi and the 5/8MP cam products for years to create 3D scans of things. I've done such with my smartphone camera and got ok results before.
        polarathene
        Senior Member
        Last edited by polarathene; 01 May 2020, 02:45 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
          Meanwhile, keep in mind that phone cameras use a rolling shutter, as opposed to a progressive shutter. That is avery undesirable effect.
          Just to point out, this RPi product also uses rolling shutter. But there are sensors in this form factor that are global shutter (they just cost more).

          https://www.framos.com/en/imx477aack-c-19503
          https://elinux.org/Jetson/Cameras#MI..._to_be_working

          Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
          Bear in mind that a 100MP DSLR costs between $10k-$50k. That's not an unreasonable price point for what you're getting (though I sure as hell wouldn't buy one).
          Sony A7R IV is capable of 240 MP (16 shots composited from base 60 MP sensor), and will cost less than $10k.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by polarathene View Post

            Sony A7R IV is capable of 240 MP (16 shots composited from base 60 MP sensor), and will cost less than $10k.
            There's more to a high quality camera than pixels, do remember the more pixels you squeeze onto full frame you get less photons you get hitting each pixel so down goes the sensitivity and increase in noise, the range topping Canon EOS-1D X Mark III still only has a 20MP sensor. However the old maxim still rings true, a camera is only as good as the person holding it.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Slartifartblast View Post
              There's more to a high quality camera than pixels, do remember the more pixels you squeeze onto full frame you get less photons you get hitting each pixel so down goes the sensitivity and increase in noise,
              Yeah... like go to my first post on page 1, it's basically the first thing I said?

              I was pointing out in the post you quoted that there are such DSLRs under $10k offering that many pixels, wasn't saying anything about quality, not that the A7R IV isn't nice?

              The 240MP offered, is from a technique that shifts the sensor, note that while it may be a 60MP sensor, to aquire the 240MP image, it takes 16 shots total with very slight shifts of the sensor.

              Originally posted by Slartifartblast View Post
              However the old maxim still rings true, a camera is only as good as the person holding it.
              That really depends on what you're doing and what goal you have?

              I'm no professional, but I made these two via photogrammetry and my 2018 smartphone camera(8MP):

              Statue: https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/stat...b9ab78f22fd881

              Pizza Slice: https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/pizz...8fc23d3c887d53

              And this one from a musuem I was awarded 3rd place in a competition(Canon EOS 6D Mark II):

              https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/skel...4d40b407e9eb44

              On the higher end stuff, I was a part of the team that built these two projects(I didn't capture the photos for these ones):

              Homestead: https://store.steampowered.com/app/7...The_Homestead/

              Nefertari's Tomb: https://store.steampowered.com/app/8...y_to_Eternity/

              Probably wouldn't get the same results on those projects with a smartphone camera that I used for mine, no matter how good you are with a camera :P

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              • #37
                Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                You can get similar if what you're after is 4k webcam, look at Logitech Brio:
                https://www.uctronics.com/index.php/...ra-module.html This is a price of a fixed 13MP focus for a raspberry pi yes around 50 dollars as well.

                Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                I'm sure people will come up with guides on how to DIY with this RPi camera if you want something cheaper, and in time with enough sales this sensor becomes cheap enough that it'll appear in cheaper webcam products too
                This RPi high quality camera is not what you would call a webcam class should come clear by the end of this section. CS mount means it not that you have 50 USD for the main part and 25 USD for the lens then the raspberry pi to drive it I would say you would use a 55 dollar raspberry pi 4 to drive it. You are looking at a 130 USD device without casing.
                https://www.kurokesu.com/main/2016/0...ves-autofocus/
                Now lets say we put a USD 50 to cs lens power drive so powered focus and zoom, Yes you have spent less than 200 USD dollars you can spend the difference on casing. One little catch here this solution will have more focus distance and zoom distance than fairly much all your webcams on the market.

                It is fairly simple to kick webcam class around for being crap in zoom and focus because just like phone cameras they have made compromised in picture capture ability to be small..

                Really RPi high quality camera is kind of in a middle ground.

                The 200 USD of parts is fairly much in quality of photo, zoom, focus that possible with the RPi high quality camera with a entry level digital camera. Yes entry level digital camera also around 200 USD except that does not have a standard lens mount so you cannot change lens or connect it up to a microscope or the like. When I say entry level digital camera I mean like "Sony Cybershot DSC-W830" yes you can use this as a webcam and it will beat the living crap out of everything that is sold as webcam including that Logitech Brio but the control software can be picky as hell.

                Microscope cameras at the same quality are also around the same price as the RPi high quality camera but you run into cases where their firmware gives you hell.

                Basically I see RPi high quality camera as in the entry level digital camera price range with changeable lens(this is a feature that normally does not exist this cheep). Yes for diy nature and cost of casing and the fact it still a compromise on image quality still a toss up if this is a good or bad idea. Webcam devices are not what RPi high quality camera competing with and are really not competitive against RPi high quality camera.

                Something to remember RPI high quality camera with the 25 dollar lens is going to be like 100mm deep at least yes the Logitech Brio is only 30mm deep so completely different class to webcam or camera in phone that extra physical distance in lens is what allows all the extra zoom and focus stuff. So it not a compact device once setup to function.

                Now if someone released entry level digital camera in the 200 dollar range with changeable lens that can be computer controlled that would kick the crud out of RPi high quality camera.

                Most people are not aware how much focus and zoom is just simply not possible because your design is compact so limited depth for lenes. Yes the multi cameras you are seeing on the back of phones these days is attempting to get around the focus and zoom limitation the limited depth problem causes. Webcams are a form of compact camera where percentage of focus and zoom in optics have been given up for compact depth then your phone cameras in fact give up more. When it comes to optics RPi high quality camera with the lens mount is not taking a compromise in this department this is why comparing it to webcams and phone cameras will never work out right because they are simply in a different class due to the restricted depth requirement on webcams and phone cameras.

                Yes comparing RPi high quality camera against the right classes of devices is not exactly the best price possible but function wise for what you need it could be the best choice at the time.

                Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                Seems to be selling one product in alibaba for example at about $10 per module(bare sensor is like $1 or so):
                That not a sensor in that link that is a fairly limited lens. Welcome to china horrible listing they list the sensor the lens is for before the lens details. You to scroll down to the Product name bit "F1.8 4.4mm 100 degree m12 lens for 8k surveillance camera" sorry no sensor in that listing. Sensor costs more so does a decent quality lens.

                Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                It should be fine for photogrammetry with stills I guess, which you don't process on the RPi hardware, but this has been a pretty common cheap DIY approach with RPi and the 5/8MP cam products for years to create 3D scans of things. I've done such with my smartphone camera and got ok results before.
                13MP with fixed focus with processing on the RPi 3 have been done in the past for photogrammetry. This new camera would allow doing this stuff better due to being able to focus and zoom.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                  Sony A7R IV is capable of 240 MP (16 shots composited from base 60 MP sensor), and will cost less than $10k.
                  I was referring to cameras where the actual sensor literally has 100MP+.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by polarathene View Post

                    Yeah... like go to my first post on page 1, it's basically the first thing I said?

                    I was pointing out in the post you quoted that there are such DSLRs under $10k offering that many pixels, wasn't saying anything about quality, not that the A7R IV isn't nice?

                    The 240MP offered, is from a technique that shifts the sensor, note that while it may be a 60MP sensor, to aquire the 240MP image, it takes 16 shots total with very slight shifts of the sensor.
                    Pentax offers pixel shift on their K-70 for only $500-800 (body or + lens). Theirs is a 24MP sensor doing 4 images to get a faux 96MP photo. AFAICT, it's the cheapest option for that on the market.

                    You seem to be knowledgeable on this subject so do you mind answering a question? I'm considering spending the majority of my stimulus check on a decent camera, basically an $800+tax limit. Due to their weather sealing I've been looking into Pentax cameras since most of my for-fun shooting will take place in areas where that'll be helpful (forests, lakes, trails, etc) combined with wanting to experiment with astrophotography (both with and w/o my 90mm refractor) and thinking the protection from weather sealing will be very helpful with all the overnight dew and fog I get for the majority of the year. Outside of that, I'm looking to get into doing residential photography gigs for real estate agents (since there are a ton of them available where I live) and pretty much anything 20MP and up is good enough (although some specify 24MP or better).

                    So far I'm considering getting the aforementioned Pentax K-70 since it's brand new and paired with a good lens, but I've also come across some lightly used Pentax KP's for almost the exact same price with the exact same lens. While I've bought used gear on eBay before, $800 for a used camera is more than double my most expensive used gear purchase and makes me really nervous even if it is from a reputable seller. Just debating on getting the K-70, going cheaper with an older K-S2, or nervously going used and getting a KP.

                    I know that, for the most part, it's more about the lens and the person than it is just the camera, and that the Pentax 18-135 lens has very good reviews, takes nice pictures (based on the sample galleries I've found), and is a weather resistant lens.

                    With that said do you think I should quit debating in my head and pick the newer K-70, the cheaper/older K-S2, or is there another camera in that price range you'd recommend?

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                    • #40
                      Does anyone with knowledge have any idea is the lense/optics good enough to use/build microscope for smd soldering example?

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