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What Do You Want To See Out Of The Redesigned, Next-Gen Raspberry Pi?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by caligula View Post
    Right. I'm sure the RPi Trading has such a huge budget for developing this kind of new hybrid x86/ARM nobody else is selling atm.
    I did say "wishes and dreams". Besides, they'd have to greatly rely on AMD for this idea.

    Originally posted by caligula View Post
    I wonder what the benefits of providing all the GPIO pins and ARM is here. Modern x86 i3/atom is pretty power efficient. Is the idle power consumption really a problem? Which chipset has open drivers so you can actually run any software on that platform?
    I was thinking more about power consumption under load for background tasks and that being where the ARM cores would help. Both are low usage when running idle, but ARM under load is usually slower but more efficient than x86 under load. Servers and laptops would probably benefit more from that. Couldn't say on the chipset question since I'm not sure.

    As far as the GPIO and whatnot...imagine a military plane or drone. ARM and GPIO would cover the interface, fly-by-wire and the x86 could be used for faster targeting calculations.

    Originally posted by caligula View Post
    I think the 5x5 / NUC boards already cover this desktop use quite well. RPi is a hybrid microcontroller / PC with nice set of low level ports for embedded connectivity. I think there should be more ports. These NUC boards could also have some small pin controller though. At least few GPIO leds/pins and one I2C.
    I just want Kaveri or Vega level graphics and no ARM or Intel board has that. I'd like to be able to build a system capable of emulating up to a PS3 without needing a full-on x86 PC, even if it is micro or mini. AMD APUs are capable of doing that now (30fps) but we have to build complete PCs when the processor is already capable of handling audio, video, and processing.

    There really isn't that much extra that would be needed to be added to an AMD APU based SoC is what I'm getting at; and the APU already has open CPU and GPU drivers from a major PC vendor (sorta answers that chipset question) which would give it a head start and the ability to run code that exists now -- they'd just have to start working on ARM/x86 interoperability and improve upon that; everything has to start somewhere.

    I'd gladly drop $200 to $400 for something that's essentially an open source PS4 or XB1 on a chip and is capable of replacing most desktops from 2014 and earlier. Please remember I'm going on wishes and dreams here. I'm the opposite of most people -- I want the most CPU/GPU power in the smallest form possible and power usage be damned.

    "Your SoC pulls 145 watts under load. That sucks."
    "Yeah, but it plays Crysis."
    "Damn you, now I have to buy more solar panels."

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    • #92
      Originally posted by hotaru View Post
      I didn't mean as a security interface but as an "in addition to the x86 cores"; like XFCE is running off ARM and Random Steam Game is using x86.

      I'm kind of thinking it could be both a way to lower power requirements and a way for backwards compatibility in the future. Eventually x86 will be replaced by something else and that something else will either have to emulate x86 or fire up x86 cores when necessary or else 30+ years of games and random proprietary software will go down the drain. Emulation and compatibility layers only go so far.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
        emulate x86
        There was news recently of a "fast binary translator": hqemu

        See also: Sometimes it's necessary: running x86_64 binaries on the Talos II

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        • #94
          USB-C ports with proper voltage/power regulation so we can use a run of the mill USB-C power adapter.
          Proper gigabit Ethernet (PoE would be nice too).
          more CPU/ram
          A Sata/M.2 port for actual storage.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Terrablit
            3. Rethink PSU. Needs power switch, shutdown via OS, higher amperage or additional power supply for peripherals.
            Originally posted by caligula View Post
            It needs a lot more than that. If you want SATA, you'll probably also want 12V DC. The 5V USB via micro USB is a joke. AFAIK many SBCs can't even run 5V 2,5" small form factor drives because the 5V supply isn't strong enough (e.g. usb cable wires are too thin).
            Not disagreeing. That's why I worded it as "rethinking", and talked about additional PSU needs. I've got one ARM device that has microSD but also an eSATA port. Also there's USB hubs and device-specific power. If we want ARM to be a serious contender in user-interactive devices, then it needs to start thinking about reliable expansion without plugging in 5+ power adapters.

            The RPI has enough leadership in the ARM device space that they could get people into better designed PSUs. We don't need full EPS12V, but having a dedicated PSU connector would open up a lot of space for development and others would follow. Then people could buy low-end 5V 2A trash or something more sturdy and reusable. I get real tired of throwing away trashy 5V USB power adapters. Current ARM power is via adapters that are almost treated like they're disposable, and the small form factor encourages a lot of vendor shenanigans. I don't mind buying more expensive things if they add value and they last.

            Not everyone needs a desktop computer. But most people need to know that they're not going to lose data or make the device crash by plugging things in. And that it won't catch fire.


            Originally posted by caligula View Post
            Wouldn't a heatsink work for you?
            Probably. I've put heatsinks on before, but it should come stock. The board should ship with sufficient cooling to run with both CPU and GPU running at 85-90% without throttling in the summer. Or they should put a good supply chain in place for cheap upgrading. Lots of the products built around the RPI make the cooling issue worse. If they start thinking about thermal issues seriously, they'll put things out that'll discourage people from buying tiny plastic coffins for their hardware.

            Originally posted by Terrablit
            6. USB 3
            7. DDR4
            8. GPU that supports Vulkan
            Originally posted by caligula View Post
            What's your planned use case? As a gaming console?
            The current RPI gets used for emulation, video, IVI, etc. It obviously shouldn't get worse, but if they're going to upgrade the GPU, it should get Vulkan. I'm worried less about performance than I am about API support. Vulkan makes it easier to get the best performance out of the GPU while keeping future compatibility high. Good news is that Eric Anholt is already working on FOSS Vulkan support for the VC5, which is the next generation of the current GPU. Since RPI has used almost exclusively Broadcom parts (due to the staff having a good relationship with Broadcom), it's not that far-fetched.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

              I did say "wishes and dreams". Besides, they'd have to greatly rely on AMD for this idea.



              I was thinking more about power consumption under load for background tasks and that being where the ARM cores would help. Both are low usage when running idle, but ARM under load is usually slower but more efficient than x86 under load. Servers and laptops would probably benefit more from that. Couldn't say on the chipset question since I'm not sure.

              As far as the GPIO and whatnot...imagine a military plane or drone. ARM and GPIO would cover the interface, fly-by-wire and the x86 could be used for faster targeting calculations.



              I just want Kaveri or Vega level graphics and no ARM or Intel board has that. I'd like to be able to build a system capable of emulating up to a PS3 without needing a full-on x86 PC, even if it is micro or mini. AMD APUs are capable of doing that now (30fps) but we have to build complete PCs when the processor is already capable of handling audio, video, and processing.

              There really isn't that much extra that would be needed to be added to an AMD APU based SoC is what I'm getting at; and the APU already has open CPU and GPU drivers from a major PC vendor (sorta answers that chipset question) which would give it a head start and the ability to run code that exists now -- they'd just have to start working on ARM/x86 interoperability and improve upon that; everything has to start somewhere.

              I'd gladly drop $200 to $400 for something that's essentially an open source PS4 or XB1 on a chip and is capable of replacing most desktops from 2014 and earlier. Please remember I'm going on wishes and dreams here. I'm the opposite of most people -- I want the most CPU/GPU power in the smallest form possible and power usage be damned.

              "Your SoC pulls 145 watts under load. That sucks."
              "Yeah, but it plays Crysis."
              "Damn you, now I have to buy more solar panels."
              Look up the AMD Fenghuang then, it's an AMD console SoC made for a Chinese "console" with Zen CPU and Vega GPU, 8GB GDDR5 (soldered). It's not quite about open source since it comes with Windows 10 (full version or some "Core" or "IoT" version that runs some simplified environment). Like PS4 or XB1, you buy the finished console. No idea about running linux on it (or even hacking on "Windows 10 Core" to run more things)
              So, I have the name for the console : Subor Z+. Can be seen here.
              https://www.techpowerup.com/249231/t...oc-benchmarked
              Not super cheap once populated with case, PSU, storage otherwise it's about what you asked, powerful PC on a chip (like Ryzen 2400G with a bigger GPU and much fatter memory bandwith).
              I think a version with 16GB RAM is theoretically possible but this one is stuck with 8GB RAM.

              It's similar to a PS4 or XB1 but CPU closer to a PS5. What this doesn't resemble at all is a Raspberry Pi.

              About AMD and its ARM and x86 : AMD had developed an ARM SoC pin compatible with its x86 low end SoCs. So, a same motherboard for a tablet or small laptop would have worked with either an ARM or an x86 CPU, per OEM choice ; but there's no mixing of instructions at all. Microsoft fucked up its Windows on ARM platform (Windows RT back then, then incarnations of Windows 10 on ARM) which might have been a main reason in AMD cancelled their ARM consumer SoC.
              Mixing ARM + x86? like four ARM cores and four x86 cores? This is probably possible. Years of work on "heterogenous computing" probably make fundamental aspects like access to the RAM and peripherals easy but then again the question is, what would you run on such a CPU? you need an OS and programs to do that (such as a Windows 10 ARM+x86 version with "fat binaries" in the Windows Store) and you won't be able to migrate processes or threads between fast and slow cores. It's about dead in the water if Microsoft won't support it.
              A few upgraded Amiga are able to run 68k and PowerPC applications simultaneously so mixed instructions sets aren't 100% unheard of but on franken Amiga accelerators they have the luxury of doing anything they want (not caring about memory protection or security or multiuser). Even a Raspberry Pi 1/2/3 is typically used with a linux or Unix OS.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by grok View Post
                No idea about running linux on it (or even hacking on "Windows 10 Core" to run more things)
                So, I have the name for the console : Subor Z+.
                Won't run Linux at present. amdgpu driver doesn't even know about the PCI ID (15ff).

                Originally posted by grok View Post
                It's similar to a PS4 or XB1 but CPU closer to a PS5. What this doesn't resemble at all is a Raspberry Pi.
                PS5 will have 8-core Ryzen if reports are correct.

                Originally posted by grok View Post
                About AMD and its ARM and x86 : AMD had developed an ARM SoC pin compatible with its x86 low end SoCs.
                I think the ARM SoC was no more pin compatible with x86 than the original Athlon was with the Alpha (EV6...)

                Comment


                • #98
                  A UEFI + ACPI firmware, and a board that complies with https://github.com/ARM-software/ebbr. If the purpose of the PI project is to open things up, then there is no other thing that would have an ecosystem changing impact. It is both progressive in outlook, but also makes the usage and maintenance of the device easier for everyone. In addition, the primary architecture should be 64 bit from the get go. Plenty of volunteers exist for this effort as well, it is almost inexcusable to not do it, and plays directly to Pi's market strength, which has always been its accessibility.


                  Many projects exist as is, this one is the best I've seen so far, and the most completed.
                  https://github.com/andreiw/RaspberryPiPkg

                  This is also the single largest problem in the ARM ecosystem, well documented and confirmed by numerous studies.
                  Last edited by techzilla; 25 November 2018, 02:18 PM.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by dungeon View Post
                    Something that is not Rock Pi 4 for $39 or NanoPi NEO4 for $45... these are much faster as use RK3399, kind of they are wasting chip just to make a price there, as that chip can do much more

                    Funny how these trolling RPi there and suggesting number 4

                    Number 4 comment in the thread
                    The problem with these are the video drivers...
                    If you want to see youtube videos, they're laggy...
                    Not for me.

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