cmol: Hey guys. I'm sitting here with an anxious dude, trying to figure out if there's any news on the steam on linux thing. Can you help me?
mikeplus64: cmol: None other than Valve saying they aren't working on it. http://www.the-games-blog.com/valve-says-they-are-not-working-on-a-linux-steam-client/
mikeplus64: It seems that michaellarabel just made up the "confirmed" thing about Steam on Linux. ( and before you say something about the leaked files on the Valve servers, I am aware of them and I have an old zip from it; but this doesn't mean that it was anything more than a Valve employee spending their free-time )
cmol: Crap! Well, thanks mikeplus64
classical: Hello ppl :-)))
classical: Is it true that Nvidia has better drivers for linux than Ati has ?
mikeplus64: NVIDIA's proprietary driver is indeed better than Catalyst
mikeplus64: Catalyst has broken vsync and no video acceleration apparently.
mikeplus64: But I wouldn't know for sure seeing as the last ATI card I used was a Radeon 9550, which wasn't even supported by fglrx at all.
mikeplus64: For open source support AMD is much better; they provide documentation for their cards that help open source driver developers to develop ( as they do ;-)) the drivers.
mikeplus64: *their drivers.
classical: mikeplus64, I was going to move on Amd/ati but now idk exactly
classical: i want amd coz its cheap
Ivanovic: vsync for Xv is problematic in catalyst
Ivanovic: and the video hardware acceleration stuff is in a state of "no idea"
mikeplus64: AMD/ATI don't really have a great track record for their drivers on Windows or Linux really.
Ivanovic: that is: using the open source driver Xv has vsync and all the likes, so this is fine
Ivanovic: though there 3D is not really fast at all (some might say it is freaking slow...)
classical: :-((
mikeplus64: I guess it would depend on what card you're going to get, classical.
classical: mikeplus64, i don't know yet :-)
mikeplus64: Open source support for some cards with AMD is sometimes good ( and even better than Catalyst, which was the case with someone who I helped to get Red Eclipse running on their Ubuntu installation )
classical: I have just decide to move on amd coz i have better performance then on Intel 777 socket at same money
Ivanovic: in general there should not be too much of a problem with vsync for amd/ati cards since in most players you can select opengl and opengl does have vsync working
mikeplus64: classical: if you're not going to do "serious" 3D stuff and/or new-ish 3D gaming then an AMD card is probably fine for you.
Ivanovic: (using catalyst that is)
classical: yep im not going 3d stuff but wanna some games :-)
Ivanovic: though if you do watch classic analog tv eg using tvtime you might have some tearing when using catalyst since the players for analog tv using a classic tv card tend to only have Xv implemented, not scaling via opengl
Ivanovic: using the open source driver on my rv670 (HD3850) i can eg play world of goo without a problem
Ivanovic: but first person shooters and the likes are too slow to really be usable
mikeplus64: That person I helped from #redeclipse apparently got ~30-40 fps with RE using open source AMD/ATI drivers.
mikeplus64: I don't recall what card he used though
Ivanovic: i once tested ut2004 several month ago
Ivanovic: it was playable in 1920x1200, but speed with catalyst was by far better
Ivanovic: ;)
classical: okay than what is the best hardware for linux ?
classical: I using linux abut 2 years but i dont know much about the hardware
classical: :-)
mikeplus64: A newish nvidia card at the moment would be 'best' I guess.
classical: Nvidia needs intel
mikeplus64: What? I'm using a NVIDIA GTX 295 with a Phenom II 955 fine.
classical: Nvidia works on amd's board ? idk :-D
s_20: classical: why shouldn't it?
classical: dunno
s_20: PCIE is PCIE, period
mikeplus64: shudders at the thought of AMD attempting to break compatibility with non-AMD graphics cards.
mikeplus64: They would probably have to make some proprietary mobo or something.
mjr: would probably be a bad move in practice too, their CPUs don't exactly have the upper hand
mikeplus64: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25567 <- these kind of articles are the reason I still read Phoronix, even if the articles recently have degraded into poopoo.
classical: its a quite old thread dude :-)
classical: aww sorry it's not :-)
Kano: michaellarabel: why didn't you test the gtx 460 against some faster ati gpus? and maybe a 1 gb variant not only 768 mb which is crippled anyway. heaven with tesselation i miss too
Kano: it is not logical to test it against a dx10 gpu without heaven + tess
michaellarabel: Kano: Obviously because I don't have the cards.
Kano: but you could test tesselation with a 5770 too
Kano: with 5670 this was really slow however, but you could test win vs linux, thats interessting, espeically dx11 vs opengl4
Kano: with and without tess
djura-san: o/
Kano: there you see how good nv/ati optimized the game for dx11 compared to unoptimized opengl
Kano: ati even manages to write slower opengl code on win. however you can NOT use 10-7 to compare
Kano: as tesselation is broken there
Kano: but i am sure you have got something newer
Ivanovic: Kano: no idea why michaellarabel should have a more recent ati driver for windows
Ivanovic: their beta programs seperate by platform
Kano: Ivanovic: for win it is very easy
Ivanovic: so those in the win beta prog are not always in the linux beta prog and vica versa
Kano: Ivanovic: you can use the beta for opengl es
Kano: or the 10-7 hotfix
Kano: 2 drives, choose the one you like to use
Kano: 22. Jul 16:42 ati_catalyst_10.7beta_opengl_es2.0_win7_vista.exe
Kano: 2. Aug 12:10 ati_catalyst_10.7_hotfix_win7_vista.ex
Kano: both work
Kano: would be more easy to use 10-8 however
Ivanovic: that one ain't released yet, right?
Kano: usually wed
Kano: as this is the last wed this week, 2 days most likely to wait
Kano: but you can test pts already ;)
Kano: 10-7 really sucked with broken tesselation for benchmarks
asraniel: so, no steam for linux then http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/08/23/1237200/Steam-Not-Coming-To-Linux
michaellarabel: It's still coming.
Nevtus: trolls are out in force in those comments
asraniel: michaellarabel: lol, sure
monreal: "It's still coming." hahaha
monreal: funny quote of the day
gongoputch: what is steam?
smallfoot-: phoronix is a bunch of liars and crap journalists
smallfoot-: they spread rumors and lies
smallfoot-: told everyone Steam was coming to Linux, 100% sure
smallfoot-: now Valve officially stated Steam is NOT coming to Linux
gongoputch: what is steam?
gongoputch: mulvane: do YOU know what steam is?
smallfoot-: god, you dont know what Steam is? you must have been living under a rock
gongoputch: A peter gabriel song?
gongoputch: http://store.steampowered.com/ ?
gongoputch: ah, so it is a game
gongoputch: this is probably why I haven't heard of it.
smallfoot-: its not a game
smallfoot-: Steam is a digital distribution, digital rights management, multiplayer and communications platform developed by Valve Corporation. It is used to distribute games and related media online, from small independent developers to larger software houses. Steam also has community features, automated game updates, and in-game voice and chat functionality.
smallfoot-: As of 2010, there are over 1,100 games available through Steam.[3] In January 2010 Valve claimed that it had surpassed 25 million active user accounts.[4] Although Valve never releases sales figures, Steam is estimated to have a 70% share of the digital distribution market for video games
gongoputch: so it is gameS
smallfoot-: no
smallfoot-: its a an application like a linux package manager, that lets you login and download thousands of games
gongoputch: I find games unintersting
smallfoot-: much rest of the world dont
smallfoot-: and phoronix lied that Steam would come to Linux
smallfoot-: you cant trust phoronix because they are liars
Tigge: well, we don't know that yet
gongoputch: did you expect less?
gongoputch: almost everything on the site is yellow journalism
Tigge: we'll see in due time
smallfoot-: valve officially stated Steam WONT come to Linux
smallfoot-: Michael Larabel is a liar that lied that Steam would come to Linux to bring visitors to Phoronix
gongoputch: they are laughing all the way to the google pay per click account
Tigge: meeh, we'll see
gongoputch: but I am an IT professional, games are dull. when I am done working or learning about something productive I go outside and ride my motorcycle or go skydiving or screw my girlfriend
Tigge: We all do
smallfoot-: not me, i have no girlfriend, so i masturbate
Tigge: except maybe the motorcycle part, that seems dull
gongoputch: depends on what you are riding it over
Tigge: I just prefer walking
Tigge: or a car
gongoputch: I love the wind against me, and the opposing forces - centrifugal vs. acceleration
gongoputch: but people in SUVs on the cel phones are out to kill you
Tigge: oh yes, they are
gongoputch: and I am getting old enough to realize a fall is not something I relish recovery from
gongoputch: do people still play NetTrek?
Tigge: Hm, probably not
Tigge: its all them Starcrafts nowadays
gongoputch: that was the last online game I played
gongoputch: tried it in the late 80's
smallfoot-: StarCraft II in that case
gongoputch: I was impressed by the fact that the only way to win was to cooperate
Nevtus: the comments on slashdot about steam on linux are depressingly stupid
Nevtus: it's all the usual "linux is too hard to write software for" bullshit
Nevtus: or we don't buy software
gongoputch: well, GOOD software appears to be hard to write anywhere
gongoputch: mostly people seem to be in too much of a hurry to think about what they are doing
Nevtus: most people can't even write valid XHTML markup these days
Nevtus: or even valid HTML for that matter
gongoputch: then there are pseudo-science sites like phoronix that publish meaningless and blatantly biased benchmarks
smallfoot-: yes, phoronix has bad journalism
smallfoot-: they lied that Steam would come to Linux
Ivanovic: smallfoot-: how do you know that it is a lie?
Ivanovic: it might happen in 10 years
Ivanovic: then looking back it was no lie
smallfoot-: cuz Steam said Valve will not come to Linux
Ivanovic: just a huge term for "soon"
smallfoot-: well its deception
Ivanovic: it is a business company, don't expect things to be true for long
Nevtus: given it was said to be "Official", it was a lie
Ivanovic: there are always decissions that are revoked not to shortly after
smallfoot-: phoronix should start quoting sources
smallfoot-: instead of making things up
Nevtus: even if behind the scenes someone from Valve (or close to Valve) has told Michael it was coming at some point but couldn't be named, you can't say that is Official
gongoputch: wow this steam is like what ... the holy grail? the golden fleece?
Ivanovic: gongoputch: yeah, something along those lines
Nevtus: gongoputch: people like to play games
Ivanovic: gongoputch: basically the currently largest, commercial game distribution system on the net
Ivanovic: resulting in it being really well known among gamers
Ivanovic: especially since it is used as "copy protection" (drm is more precise...) for some games
Ivanovic: smallfoot-: and looking at the interview i'd say that someone might currently be working on steam for linux
Ivanovic: "Doug Lombardi: There’s no Linux version that we’re working on right now."
Nevtus: also many people want to play Portal 2, a Valve game who are also the people who run Steam, which is the sequal to one of the few genuinely stand out games this decade
Ivanovic: this does not mean that they have not contracted someone to do the work
Ivanovic: and it does not mean that they will not release such a work some time (maybe "soon")
smallfoot-: sounds like he says valve wont come to linux which means phoronix are liars
Ivanovic: smallfoot-: ah, this is an interview and it was clear which questions to expect
smallfoot-: steam*
Ivanovic: this could be a *very* carefully formulated sentence to answer the question while not announcing anything yet
Nevtus: they're not saying NEVER, but then no company says never to possible areas to grow in
Ivanovic: something like "no comment about this" would mean "yeah, really confirmed, at least not denied"
Ivanovic: (at least this is what many people would read)
Ivanovic: and it was not said "we do not plan to release such a version in the near future"
Ivanovic: to me this sentence does sound too carefully formulated to clearly state "there will be no native steam for linux within the year 2010"
Nevtus: if there isn't a Steam/Source Engine port to Linux for Portal 2 (Q1 2011 I think), I'm not wasting my money on any more Valve games
Ivanovic: personally i assume that there will be native steam for linux no later than with the release of postal3
Ivanovic: since this one was announced to come with linux support
Ivanovic: and i assume that the game will be released via steam
Nevtus: didn't the Postal 3 devs remove all mention of the Linux port from their site recently or something?
NoobFukaire: haha phoronix you fucking sensationalist lying douche bags: http://digitizor.com/2010/08/22/valve-puts-an-end-to-the-steam-on-linux-rumors/
boulabiar: bas news, Steam not coming to Linux
boulabiar: http://digitizor.com/2010/08/22/valve-puts-an-end-to-the-steam-on-linux-rumors/
tiny_fan: sucks !!!
Bakou: man theres a lot of hating in here over that post
Bakou: the fact is
Bakou: they still have linux only code shipping in their software
Bakou: which is quite at odds with their "official statement"
RambJoe: he is just a marketer
Bakou: exactly
Bakou: this is just like when any game company says "oh ya, our game is xbox exclusive"
Bakou: then 6 months later you see it on ps3
Bakou: happens ALL the time
Bakou: people obviously dont follow the games industry and their lying ways very closely
Bakou: all the games that are already built with opengl for mac would prolly take like 20 mins to port to linux
Bakou: its just the steam gui thats the problem i think
basotl: The earlier articles from some news sources made it sound like there was another source that had confirmed it? Did that ever happen? I'm somewhat confused on that point.
Bakou: there was
RambJoe: have you got the css beta
Bakou: an english newspaper reported
RambJoe: in the update a few days ago
Bakou: they interviewed a valve employee
RambJoe: they added the hl2.sh file into the folder
Bakou: who said steam was coming to linux
Bakou: yea
Bakou: and theres been like 5-10 examples of linux only code
Bakou: already shipped with steam
Bakou: going way back to l4d1
boulabiar: Bakou, it can be the result of some dirty monopoly from Apple/MS
Bakou: frankly the evidence for is better than against if you ask me
boulabiar: games is a big reason people don't use Linux
Bakou: yeah
Bakou: i know very well~
Bakou: but valve aint owned by ms or apple
Bakou: of course well never see halo or some shit on linux
Bakou: but that game is shit anyway
boulabiar: Maybe Stream CEO has received some money :D
basotl: I would buy games if they did release it. That's all I can say.
boulabiar: we can do a website where people sign in to insist on having steam on Linux
Bakou: i think there is one already lol
boulabiar: Bakou, where ?
Bakou: http://www.petitiononline.com/st4linux/petition.html
Bakou: first google result~
boulabiar: LOL
Bakou: http://www.petitiononline.com/steam1/petition.html
Bakou: and a 2nd one just for RO
Bakou: haha
RambJoe: 565 Total Signatures
boulabiar: that's too little
RambJoe: :(
Bakou: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/steam-for-linux.html
Bakou: wait heres another one~
RambJoe: 26
Bakou: that petition looks difficult to sign tho~
basotl: 566 nao
RambJoe: http://www.petitionbuzz.com/
RambJoe: that one is easy to sign
Bakou: there i just signed it
RambJoe: i think the thread shows more interest
Bakou: http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/banttffromourscene
Bakou: hahah
Bakou: heres a stupid one with 0signatures
RambJoe: lol
RambJoe: lol at almost all petitions being about big brother
basotl: 3468 signatures on http://www.petitiononline.com/steam1/petition.html for RO.
Bakou: yeah
Bakou: RO people dont fuck around
Bakou: its all like 40 year olds with huge gun collections
Bakou: if they wanted to they could take gabe newell hostage until steam is on linux
basotl: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Queremos-steam-para-linux-We-want-steam-for-linux/108565312533733?ref=ts&v=wall#!/pages/Queremos-steam-para-linux-We-want-steam-for-linux/108565312533733?v=info&ref=ts
Bakou: they know RO is ut engine and it would work fine on linux too
RambJoe: anyone use emacs?
Bakou: vim
RambJoe: it hasn't noticed my .php file is php wtf
Bakou: heh
Bakou: vim with omnicompletion man
Bakou: thats a programmers paradise
Bakou: at least for C++
Bakou: havnt really seen it working in other languages
Bakou: but it does syntax highlight php properly~
RambJoe: its not for me wtf
RambJoe: neither does emacs
RambJoe: gedit does
Bakou: heh
Bakou: is the extension .preprocessorhypertext?~
RambJoe: nope, .php
Bakou: odd
RambJoe: you know santrex?
RambJoe: this vps host
RambJoe: they had arch on the list of OSs to reisntall too, apparently its in beta
RambJoe: my friend did it, and they didn't tell us the password for root wtf
RambJoe: so we asked them then they reinstalled it again and i still haven't got the root password
Bakou: shitty
Bakou: i use linode
Bakou: great service
Bakou: you can login even if you dont know root
RambJoe: do they ahve arch
Bakou: nt sure
Bakou: but if you could install it yourself if you wanted
Bakou: and yep they do have out of the box arch
RambJoe: they have a distro wizard
Bakou: you can actually have more than one distro
RambJoe: nice
Bakou: its pretty crazy virtual hosting
Bakou: only 20$ TOO
RambJoe: they have a server in hte uk :D
Bakou: im hosting 2 game servers and a apache on there right now
Bakou: well actually
Bakou: one of the game servers is in development
Bakou: for my iphone game ><
Bakou: i should prolly be coding that right now
RambJoe: http://www.linode.com/faq.cfm#which-distributions-do-you-offer arch at the top of the list :P
RambJoe: what distro do you have on it
Bakou: i rolled out ubuntu
Bakou: cuz i was in a hurry
Bakou: haha
RambJoe: lol
Bakou: i was like i need to get a webpage up in 30 minutes
Bakou: and i did
RambJoe: i had centos on it before it had an awful repo
Bakou: cuz i realized when i was submitting the game to apple
Bakou: you needed a website
Bakou: http://warpblockbattle.com/
Bakou: there it is~ haha
RambJoe: lol
RambJoe: gonna be an android version?
Bakou: is already
RambJoe: oh yeah
Bakou: working on a PC version now
Bakou: and the play online server
RambJoe: what you making the pc one in
Bakou: its all C++
Bakou: it already compiles on like every OS
RambJoe: for linux?
RambJoe: cool
Bakou: cept on macs it crashes
Bakou: cuz macs suck~
RambJoe: do you know php
Bakou: actually im pretty disapointed with android development
Bakou: i hate to say it, but iphone SDK is much better
Bakou: ya
RambJoe: ever used the mail function?
Bakou: yep
Bakou: its real easy
Bakou: you dont even need a mail server
RambJoe: i cant get it to work lol
Bakou: perhaps it depends on your config tho
RambJoe: maybe its because the adress im sending from
RambJoe: need authenticatin
RambJoe: oh
Bakou: if you have the right config
RambJoe: smtp_port = 25
Bakou: i think php just like
Bakou: does it all itself
Bakou: its not like perl
Bakou: where you had to set up sendmail
Bakou: havnt screwed with that in years tho
RambJoe: SMTP = localhost
RambJoe: hmm
Bakou: haha
Bakou: well
Bakou: that implies it needs a server
RambJoe: yeah
Bakou: but i dont think it really does
RambJoe: oh
Bakou: if i recall i thas like a builtin server
Bakou: and this was ilke php3
Bakou: or php4
RambJoe: could i comment taht line out
RambJoe: i have postfix installed actually
Bakou: http://email.about.com/od/emailprogrammingtips/qt/Configure_PHP_to_Use_a_Local_Mail_Server_for_Sending_Mail.htm
Bakou: guess you either need a local service or smtp
RambJoe: thanks
Bakou: i swear i remember using it and it just working tho
RambJoe: same
RambJoe: oh shit thats a point
RambJoe: i think my dads server
RambJoe: for his website
RambJoe: has windows *facepalm*
Bakou: prolly cuz on like managed hosts or windows web servers
Bakou: they just autoconfig that shit for you
RambJoe: yeah
RambJoe: some php code is different though isn't it
RambJoe: it has loads of warnings on the php manual
Bakou: dunno honestly
Bakou: this webpage is the first php ive written in like 10 years
Bakou: and all it is is some includes and mysql queries
Bakou: its integratd live with my high score server
Bakou: and soon im gonna make an online ladder ranking
Bakou: lol nice hostname
Bakou: man
Bakou: youd think if you click a mailto: link
Bakou: and you only use gmail in google chrome and no mail client
Bakou: it would pop opena gmail window for you or something
Bakou: but nope
RambJoe: http://www.vpsville.co.uk/arch-vps
RambJoe: is that good
RambJoe: on my php mail thing
Bakou: i guess..
RambJoe: if you go to the php on firefox or something
Bakou: awful low ram
Bakou: and disk space
RambJoe: it just gets stuck on loading =/
RambJoe: yeah
Bakou: look at linode
Bakou: its like 2x the price
Bakou: but you get like 5x more of everything
Bakou: although 100 gig bandwidth is a pretty good deal i guess
Bakou: i might have been able to make due with this host
Bakou: just the ram seems dangerously low
RambJoe: what cpu does it have
Bakou: only gauranteed 64mb
Bakou: is that even enough to run mysql?
RambJoe: lolol
Bakou: im not sure
Bakou: linode has like the same xeon shit going on
Bakou: as far as i can tell the cpu is ridiculously fast
RambJoe: i wish i could have faster internet
Bakou: if every other vps is idle
RambJoe: and have one in my house
Bakou: you can use the entire cpu
Bakou: so usually it just screams
Bakou: ive never had to wait for anything
Bakou: ubuntu updates like 200mb worth of shit in about 5 seconds
RambJoe: nice
RambJoe: i wish i had fibre :(
Bakou: yeah
Bakou: i wish i had it mostly just for gaming
Bakou: i remember at some web dev shop i worked at they had a T1
Bakou: which is actually slower than most DSL connections now
Bakou: however..
Bakou: you could ping local isps
Bakou: and itd be like <10 ms ping
RambJoe: i just want it fast enough to host servers
RambJoe: i have 1mbit upload lol
Bakou: thats not so bad
Bakou: i have like 70k up maybe
Bakou: bell canada is offering fiber to the home now
Bakou: but
Bakou: i have so little trust for that company
Bakou: im sure its a scam
Bakou: for a while my parents had dsl from them, and they randomly put in like a 5 gig cap
Bakou: shit its home internet not a mobile phone
RambJoe: :: Restarting Apache Web Server [DONE]
RambJoe: You have mail in /var/spool/mail/joe
RambJoe: wut
Kano: michaellarabel: git is outdated
RambJoe: it stil wont work :(
smallfoot-: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.phoronix.com%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0
smallfoot-: boy learn to code
smallfoot-: your website dont even validate
Bakou: lol
Bakou: not many do
Bakou: the w3 validator is disgustingly anal
smallfoot-: i do
smallfoot-: im disgustingly anal too lol
Bakou: nor does it mean much
Nevtus: Bakou: having a valid website is important for, among other things, accessibility
Nevtus: people with sight problems use screen readers which can have problems reading badly written (X)HTML and also need alt text for images
Nevtus: it's amazing that people that call themselves developers cannot even write in a simple markup langauge
Bakou: fair enough
Bakou: if i was catering a website to blind people
Bakou: i might keep that in mind
Bakou: my site is for a game that definitely requires vision though
Bakou: and actually it does have alt text for the images i think
Nevtus: are you making this game?
Bakou: yep
Bakou: that site i linked earlier
Nevtus: yet you find writing a valid website hard?
Bakou: i wouldnt describe it as difficult
Bakou: more as a waste of time
Bakou: because you often have websites that work perfectly in 3 or 4 major browsers that dont validate
Nevtus: having compatibilty with many web browsers that you never check is a waste of time?
Bakou: certainly
RambJoe: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=facebook.com&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0
Bakou: having compatibility with netscape 4 is a waste
Bakou: and there are plenty of worse browsers out there
Bakou: a lot of browsers arent even compatible with w3 anyway
RambJoe: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=google.co.uk&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.1
RambJoe: lol even google fails
Bakou: exactly
Bakou: w3 means nothing
Nevtus: RambJoe: what's your point. That Web 2.0 suck at being developers?
Nevtus: that's a great point
Bakou: thats not even true
Nevtus: next you'll say GCC is being anal when compiling some C
Bakou: your questioning the prowess of google developers now
Bakou: because their website doesnt checkout in w3?
Bakou: and GCC 4 is anal when compiling some C
Bakou: lol
RambJoe: my php send mail is being anal
Bakou: and id even go as far as to say all C++ compilers are slightly anal about typecasting~
Bakou: just fucking cast the char* to void*
Bakou: just do it
Bakou: i dont care~
Nevtus: who knew closing some tags and having them in the right order was so hard
Bakou: man
Bakou: its not just that
Bakou: w3 goes on and on about your doctype
Bakou: and all sorts of extraneous nonsense
Bakou: i mean
Bakou: the consortium itself is useful
Bakou: to at least *attempt* to reign in these crazy web developers and browser developers
Bakou: who cant agree on much at all
Bakou: but their validator is over the top
Nevtus: I can't find the link to your site. What doctype do you use?
Bakou: www.warpblockbattle.com
Bakou: im sure it wont validate~
RambJoe: mail_queue_enter: create file maildrop/596914.29124: Permission denied
RambJoe: hmm
Bakou: nope
Bakou: 7 errors
Bakou: heh
Nevtus: you don't even had a doctype :/
Bakou: yeah
Bakou: becasue doctypes are useless
Bakou: im not writing some funky xhtml whatever
RambJoe: ah its because i messed up my permissions a few weeks go
Bakou: just plain jane html
Bakou: oh
Nevtus: then set the doctype for HTML then?
Bakou: and im not ending my tags
Bakou: god forbid~
Nevtus: why is this so hard for someone making a game?
Bakou: like i said
Bakou: its not hard
Bakou: its just pointless.
Nevtus: ugh
Nevtus: whatever. you'll clearly never get it
Bakou: i bet you the majority of browsers that have ever existed
Bakou: dont even recognize the doctype tag
RambJoe: yesss i fixed it :D
RambJoe: it was my permissions
mulvane: Bakou I bet you feel that parity checks on raid arrays are pointless as well.
mulvane: Why waste the extra space on parity...right?
Bakou: lol
Bakou: nah i dont use raid :P
Bakou: look
Bakou: i started web developing in the era of netscape 3 and ie3
mulvane: I bet you told your electrician to not put in ground wiring in your house to save money on copper
mulvane: Wow... late starter.
Bakou: im pretty content with the way things are now
mulvane: My first browser was mosaic.
Bakou: but w3 valditor certainly didnt mean shit back then
Bakou: and it still doesnt mean much now
Bakou: and i dont expect that to chagne any time soon
mulvane: You are VERY correct...
mulvane: But the big browsers do come pretty close to working best when w3c is followed.
Bakou: ive yet to find a web browser that fails to render my page
Bakou: 7 w3c errors and all
mulvane: Some hacks are required, but the closer you stick to it, the less issues you have across the great range of browsers. Especially on embedded device browsers
mulvane: Then you are clearly doing it wrong.
meklu: Bakou: Transparency sure is hell if you have it.
Bakou: although there is some icky business in the android web browser
Bakou: i dont expect w3c could help me much with that
mulvane: The more complex you make a page, the more likely it will break across the various devices and browsers.
meklu: Bakou: IE uses some weird "filter alpha" stuff for tranparency.
Bakou: im sure that i have much more respect for w3 than microsoft~
Bakou: i just dont like their validator
mulvane: So unless you catch specific browsers and make a more generic page for the rest, don't expect things to work
Bakou: and my main point is that saying oh your page doesnt validate, you cant code
Bakou: like smallfoot just did
Bakou: is retarded
meklu: mkay
Bakou: are you goin gto accus the ENTIRE foss community of being shti coders
Bakou: because all their C programs have warnings?
Bakou: no
Bakou: of course not
Bakou: same thing for w3c
Bakou: not all good coders are OCD
Bakou: some people are content when their code works
Bakou: or even works for the platform they need it to work
Nevtus: why bother doing a good job when you can do an adequate one, right?
Bakou: just a little dose of practicality for you guys
mulvane: Nevtus I think that's NASA mission quote
Bakou: adequacy - the quality of being able to meet a need satisfactorily
Bakou: why indeed~
Nevtus: Bakou: another, more common use of the word is "barely sufficient or suitable"
Nevtus: it'll get the job done but it's far from the best way to do it
Bakou: heh
Bakou: id agree with you if we were talking about architecture
Nevtus: and when it comes to web standards, only working a few browsers is getting the job done
Bakou: architecture and design of code should be good
Bakou: the code itself can be adequate :P
Nevtus: if you stick to them you'll have a much better site
Nevtus: *only working in a few browsers
Bakou: what bout sites that use HTML5 to the max
Bakou: but are broken in IE because IE is missing implementation
Bakou: but it validates perfectly
Bakou: is that good?
Nevtus: that's IEs fault. If you care you write fall backs for it
Bakou: for sure its IEs fault
Bakou: but IE is still a highly used browser
Bakou: and i wouldnt call that good code
Nevtus: having the correct solution first then adding the fall backs is the best way to do it
Nevtus: else you'd be writing IE-only shit sites like people did not so long ago
Bakou: ya
Bakou: and then the validator might even try to tell you your IE only fallback code is wrong
Bakou: when its obviously not wrong
Bakou: its just for IE only
mulvane: If you do it write, it won't show in the validator
Nevtus: indeed
Bakou: oh so now were writing even more code just to please the validator?
Bakou: see
Bakou: this is exactly why i dont care :P
Nevtus: that's not what you're doing Bakou. you don't even have a doctype
Bakou: i know
Bakou: my webpage has a grand total of like 3-4 hours of work invested in it
Bakou: and i never even checked it before today
mulvane: If you do it enough, you have code snippets you can pretty much copy and paste into your code.
Bakou: because i decided a long long time ago
Bakou: validator means shit
Nevtus: please the validator? what we just described was having a correct site that works in many browsers then adding extra code to work on a specific bad but popular browser
Bakou: this is my exact point
Nevtus: the newer version of a IE are getting better at sticking to the standards too so soon all the IE6 fixes will not be needed
Bakou: correctness on the web is decided by the browser
Bakou: not the validator~
Bakou: the validator is an ideal
Bakou: that will never be real
Nevtus: the standards are there so you aim for what most browsers are looking for;)
Bakou: its like this would be the perfect website in imagination land
Bakou: although
Bakou: it would be interesting if w3c actually created a browser
Bakou: then they could just be ilke oh? no doctype
Bakou: well, im not rendering this page
mulvane: I code for standards and then patch for browsers
Bakou: and nobody would ever use that browser~
Nevtus: there are real, large sites which are written correctly, e.g. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2F&charset=(detect+automatically)&doctype=Inline&group=0
Bakou: it gave me a fatal error
Bakou: lol
Bakou: A fatal error occurred when attempting to transcode the character encoding of the document. Either we do not support this character encoding ("1") yet, or you have specified a non-existent character encoding (often a misspelling).
Bakou: The error was: Encoding not supported.
Daekdroom: Clicking from that link will give you an error
Daekdroom: You have to enter the validator and input the website yourself
Bakou: yeah it works if i select utf8
Daekdroom: Btw, I just found a website that gives me 557 errors xD
Nevtus: hmm, I can click that link just fine from irssi
meGenius: damn Valve :@
Bakou: i certainly understand why google isnt valid
Bakou: they try to make their main page as effecient as possible
gongoputch: this is why it amazes me that the internet works at all becaue It Works For Me (tm) doesn't advance the groups best interests
Bakou: and making it valid would add text
Bakou: and therefor use more bandwidth
gongoputch: um ... google is bandwidth choked?
Bakou: no, but they also dont wate
Bakou: waste
gongoputch: the graphic on the page is likely heavier than the added text
gongoputch: what they don;t waste is PEOPLE time
gongoputch: bandwidth is probably less of a concern for them than CPU time even
mulvane: gongoputch all google sites have been dog slow for me today. like btrfs.
gongoputch: mulvane: THAT slow?
gongoputch: Google should switch to ZFS
Bakou: i dont know if they still do
Bakou: but they used to have like no whtiespace in their code
Bakou: id assume to save bandwidth?
mulvane: I would have said maple syrup from a mooses ass...But its not THAT bad yet
Bakou: no idea whye lse youd have not a signle whitespace in your code lol
meGenius: http://digitizor.com/2010/08/22/valve-puts-an-end-to-the-steam-on-linux-rumors/
mulvane: Bakou It compress quicker and uses less bandwidth
Bakou: ya
Bakou: thats what i thought
Bakou: but adding pointless closing tags that arent really necessary is also wasteful~
mulvane: Depeneds on what you are validating to as well.
mulvane: needs closing tags in xhtml for instance...
Bakou: if i was getting like a billion hits per day
mulvane: html 4.2 does not.
Bakou: id like to make my site trim
gongoputch: I would say that google's prime interest is ergonomics
Bakou: i dont know how many of you guys are C coders
mulvane: I can do C.
Bakou: but i hate the legions fo people who decry "bad code"
Bakou: which is actually just optimized code that looks like shit
Bakou: well sure it looks really bad and its hard to maintain.. but it runs like 2x faster than your "good code"
Bakou: so how bad is it really?
gongoputch: it also depends on maintainence time
s_20: Bakou: not all bad code is optimised, i even go as far as saying that most shitty code is actually just that, shitty code
Bakou: in university i find they like to teach people how to write "good code" that runs slowly
gongoputch: if your optimized code has a bug that no one sees
gongoputch: and causes a multi million dollar breach
mulvane: And properly commented BAD code with possible example of "good code" in it saves maintenance time.
gongoputch: 99% of optimizations are based of what the programmer supposed should be optimized
gongoputch: not 'Field telemetry'
Bakou: well it obviously depends what your trying to do
Bakou: but i went to school for comp sci
Bakou: and ive been through a few jobs
Bakou: and a lot fo people like to tell you a list of things you should enver do
Bakou: but some of those things you need to write optimized code
mulvane: You should never sleep with your wifes sister on Tuesdays.
Bakou: heh
Bakou: ive had peopl tell me quake1-3 code is not object oriented
Bakou: becuase its written in plain C
Bakou: and that its no good
Bakou: personally i think its some of the most impressive code ever written
mulvane: Um... Yeah... All the old iD code is amazing.
Bakou: and i dont even know how you could write such a game without object oriented code
Bakou: lol
Bakou: but there are legions of coders who decide that object oriented means you use classes
Bakou: if theres no class, it must not be object oriented
Bakou: and therefor its badly written
Bakou: id just like to see a little more pragmatism in programming
Bakou: i feel people are more concerned with the code itself than the result sometimes
Nevtus: when it comes to coding John Carmack is a genius
Bakou: yeah, and his code is completely unconventional :P
Nevtus: it's still pretty amazing that Doom worked at all
Bakou: but id say its better than most
Bakou: not that i understand why
Bakou: just because i can see the result
Bakou: and of what i can understand of his code, it taught me things they never mentioned in school
Nevtus: have you seen his work on the iphone running a rage-like engine at 60fps? I don't care about apple idevices but that was impressive
Bakou: yeah that was amazing
Bakou: for sure the guy is a bonafide genius
Bakou: without him i seriously wonder if fpses would be so prevalent
Bakou: almost all 3d engines owe something to quake
Nevtus: he is building rockets in his spare time
Nevtus: or maybe it's now game engines in his spare time and rockets in his main time
Bakou: heh
Bakou: but like
Bakou: the amount of shit that industry professionals and professors will tell you to NEVER do
Bakou: without really expalining why
Bakou: that carmack does all the time in his code
Nevtus: I still think that has little to do with having valid markup for a website
Bakou: makes me question just about all conventional coding wisdom
Bakou: heh, it just reminds me of that
Bakou: its a totally different situation
Bakou: since C is actually a standard that gets followed
Bakou: and HTML isnt ><
Nevtus: that's because the compilers enforced the rules
Nevtus: and still enforce them
Bakou: you can stil find some compilers around that dont follow the standard though
Bakou: like visual studio 6~
Bakou: pretty much the IE of C++
Bakou: lol
Nevtus: meh
Bakou: good old microsoft
Bakou: if microsoft didnt exist
Nevtus: well their browser is THE web standards breaking browser too after all
Bakou: it would be the greatest day for all software standards association everywhere
Bakou: every standard out there -- microsoft has fucked with it
Bakou: wether it be windows specific extensions or just plain ignoring it
Bakou: at one time or another
Bakou: theyve hit them all
jelso: so much for steam on linux
RambJoe: wtf why does having a button in a form
RambJoe: make it always refresh the page
Bakou: http://www.slashgear.com/valve-confirm-no-current-linux-steam-plans-2398549/
Bakou: take it with a grain of salt
Bakou: this post gets it right
Bakou: "no steam on linux" next to a screenshot of steam running on linux~
RambJoe: why is ajax and php mail such a pain
RambJoe: and html forms :(
RambJoe: oh shi i had a " where it shouldn't have been in my php
RambJoe: page still resfreshed though -.-
RambJoe: maybe i shouldn't use a normal butotn
Kvisle: http://digitizor.com/2010/08/22/valve-puts-an-end-to-the-steam-on-linux-rumors/ ... haven't seen you make a big number out of this one, yet
Daekdroom: Kvisle, every hour or two somebody links us to such news
bkero: Was already an article
Kvisle: I must have missed it
Kano: michaellarabel: how many tests are done at max when i get ste dev 6%?
Kano: expected 3 runs
michaellarabel: Kano: Enough until it drops below 3.5%, up to 6 runs (2x expected). What test are you having this deviation on?
Kano: 6?
Kano: apache
Kano: i7-880
michaellarabel: k
Kano: virtual 8 core...
Kano: but i think that does not scale correctly. a 955 @ 4ghz had a score or 30000?
Kano: thats not normal
Kano: because 18000 only for 3.2 ghz
Kano: something must be wrong there
Kano: http://global.phoronix-test-suite.com/?k=profile&u=root-26986-31099-1006
Kano: in theory about 22000
Kano: http://global.phoronix-test-suite.com/?k=profile&u=anon-6890-31837-30560
Kano: thats my i7-880
Kano: build the distro extra for benchmarking
Kano: usally i use 32 bit
Kano: used pts 2 to compare against my other system, with 1 gb swap file
Kano: http://global.phoronix-test-suite.com/?k=profile&u=kano-12401-20604-15555
Kano: really fast...
bkero: Might be limited on memory bandwidth
bkero: 955's support triple channel memory
Kano: but 30000? from 18000 before?
bkero: What's bounding it?
Kano: i guess his cpu calcs nonsense
RambJoe: http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/google-overhauls-youtube-in-uk-with-html5-711889
Kano: michaellarabel: why does it default to sudo?
Kano: that does not work on a hd install with squeeze
Kano: btw. i do not fully get your depends for mencoder, i have it compiled already and you still want to install dev files...
Kano: michaellarabel: you know that [ ! -z "string" ] is the same as [ "string" ] or [ -n "string" ]?
Kano: ! -z is the worst readable...
michaellarabel: Kano: Right, where do I have that statement?
Kano: in root access
Kano: but you have to check for another kdesu path too
Kano: not only in /usr/bin/kdesu
Kano: check for /usr/lib/kde4/libexec/kdesu too and use that
Kano: thats the kde4 position of that file
Kano: also do NOT check for whoami=root
Kano: thats wrong
Kano: $(id -u) = 0
Kano: thats the check
Kano: you can rename root to whatever you like
Kano: [ "$(id -u)" != 0 ] && echo not root
Kano: but even when i change that file i still get sudo...
Kano: dont you call it?
Kano: when you install depends i mean
Kano: ah the same code in install-ubuntu-packages...
Kano: i do not really like that you call it without opening a terminal
Kano: you see nothing what happens
Kano: you just called aptitude install ... without terminal in x using kdesu (after change)
Kano: not good
Kano: a terminal -e "command"
Kano: michaellarabel: do you want to remove CPU from the name?
Kano: http://global.phoronix-test-suite.com/?k=profile&u=kano-21351-1601-21349
michaellarabel: hmm?
Kano: i7 CPU 880 or i5 CPU 680...
Kano: http://global.phoronix-test-suite.com/?k=profile&u=anon-6890-31837-30560
michaellarabel: why would you want it removed?
Kano: well looks a bit weird
Kano: did you test the speed code? with my i5-680 3333 was never correct
Kano: as it would be 3590 or so
Kano: did you fix the ram usage counter yet?
Kano: that it would show the same results as htop
Kano: also please fix your git...
Kano: its always different from the tar
Kano: checking phoronix-test-suite.diff:
Kano: 17 files changed, 24 insertions(+), 17 deletions(-)
Kano: missing files: 1
Kano: even when you wanted to produce diffs with git you can not do that
Kano: because you always work with outdated data
Azerthoth: http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/No-Steam-For-Linux