Sleepy_Coder: (04:58:33) < bluekoala> They play 1 handed, the other hand holding an expresso <-- I was not expecting 'expresso' here.
ryan22: latte not expresso ;)
Ivanovic: so steam for linux is getting closer (if you assume that all of the orange box will be available for mac before the linux client is announced/released)
Ivanovic: now only cs:s, dod:s and hl2dm are missing from the orange box
Lazy^: When they are releasing steam for linux ? =)
FliPPeh: STEAM???ßß
FliPPeh: Oh.
FliPPeh: I should stop responding to that already
FliPPeh: Lazy^: They didn't even announce it yet
FliPPeh: I'd not expect it 'till late this year
FliPPeh: If even
Lazy^: ok =)
Lazy^: i was hoping release in the end of the summer or so,..
FliPPeh: Maybe even that
FliPPeh: But who knows?
FliPPeh: They remain completely silent
Lazy^: True
Lazy^: maybe they'll tell something...
FliPPeh: The release of steam for linux WILL be the greatest event in all history for me
Lazy^: but it's quite big process to port steam to linux
FliPPeh: But hey, waiting sucks :(
FliPPeh: Well
FliPPeh: They did it for mac
FliPPeh: They'll just have to slightly modify it... I don't know how different mac is internally from linux
FliPPeh: But I bet it's not too much.. except there's less choice
mastertheknife: well
mastertheknife: they released tf2 for mac yesterday
mastertheknife: that means that if steam comes to linux sometime
mastertheknife: they won't need to report that game because its already on the new engine
mastertheknife: they'll just need to watch for case sensitive issues and test
FliPPeh: The most important game of all these!
FliPPeh: Next to DoD:S
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: yeah... and its now free for the weekend
FliPPeh: Meh, it was in my Orange Box
mastertheknife: and 50% off until monday.. guess valve is trying to make mac players buy it
mastertheknife: Same
FliPPeh: Best game I've ever played
FliPPeh: I spent NIGHTS playing it
mastertheknife: I'm just scared valve will ruin that game
FliPPeh: Why would iT?
mastertheknife: with adding more weapons and levels
FliPPeh: Oh wlel
mastertheknife: the game is currently very balanced
FliPPeh: I liked that
FliPPeh: It's balanced
mastertheknife: but it doesnt take much to unbalance it
mastertheknife: also, they added new item called Earbuds
FliPPeh: I think they know what they're doing
mastertheknife: but its only for mac users.. thats unfair
FliPPeh: What does it do?
mastertheknife: its a hat with earbuds
FliPPeh: Well
mastertheknife: also.. yesterday they changed all the menus
FliPPeh: Maybe they add a Tux hat for linux :)
FliPPeh: Yes, I saw that
FliPPeh: Strange stuff
FliPPeh: But not too bad, there's still everything available
mastertheknife: I dont think valve will announce a linux client anytime soon
mastertheknife: they're trying to push hard the mac client
mastertheknife: although in my opinion nothing stops them from pushing mac and linux at the same time
FliPPeh: I think they have enough developers to multitask
mastertheknife: push i mean as advertise
FliPPeh: I think they're not like most other companies. They always seem more sympathic to me
FliPPeh: Open to a lot
mastertheknife: Still no linux client :(
FliPPeh: I remember the TF2 "meet the sandvich" video
FliPPeh: "Copyright 2009 LOLOLOL"
FliPPeh: :D
FliPPeh: Big move for a serious company
mastertheknife: by the way.. in tf2, they had a patch for every class?
FliPPeh: Nope
FliPPeh: Engineer still missing
mastertheknife: that adds it weapons and stuff?
FliPPeh: But they're planning Engi
mastertheknife: yeah
mastertheknife: I hope they take their time with it
FliPPeh: I still can't play TF2 :(
FliPPeh: Gotta google
mastertheknife: so it wont kill the balance
mastertheknife: tf2 runs so nice here i even played 4 hours in row once
FliPPeh: :D
mastertheknife: have you tried verifying game files
FliPPeh: Average FPS?
FliPPeh: Yep, tried
mastertheknife: or uninstalling and reinstalling tf2
mastertheknife: hmm no idea but its smooth
FliPPeh: I just found a forums posts about my issue
FliPPeh: Fix for "CAudioSourceMemWave (xxx): GetDataPointer() failed"
FliPPeh: Exactly my issue
mastertheknife: i play 1440x900 windowed (1680x1050 monitor) with almost all at highest
mastertheknife: make sure to disable compiz and compositing before launching the game, these two eat some fps
FliPPeh: Nice
FliPPeh: I have no compiz :)
FliPPeh: Just xcompmgr
FliPPeh: I'll kill it
mastertheknife: and don't forget -dxlevel 81
FliPPeh: Tells me to set the windows version to 2008
mastertheknife: Wow strange, i have it set to XP
mastertheknife: (wine in general, dont have profile for steam\hl2 engine)
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: do you have pulseaudio installed?
FliPPeh: ALSA
mastertheknife: you're running ubuntu?
FliPPeh: Arch Linux
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: try this
mastertheknife: in game settings, untick boost microphone
FliPPeh: Done
mastertheknife: it worked?
FliPPeh: Dunno
FliPPeh: I changed a lot of settings
mastertheknife: it doesnt save on exit though
FliPPeh: I'll try now
FliPPeh: It was disabled from the beginning
mastertheknife: also try voice_modeenable 0 (thats from another post)
FliPPeh: fail again
FliPPeh: Seems to be an ALSA issue
FliPPeh: Let's try without sound
mastertheknife: without sound it should work
FliPPeh: It seems to be pulse audio related
FliPPeh: But I don't have it :
FliPPeh: :/
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: in winecfg, only ALSA is ticked right?
mastertheknife: and Hardware Acceleration is Full ?
FliPPeh: winecfg doesn't detect alsa
FliPPeh: It says OSS
FliPPeh: Hardware Accel is ful
FliPPeh: full.
FliPPeh: But other games work fine with sound
mastertheknife: doesn't detect alsa??? thats strange
mastertheknife: here only alsa is detected
mastertheknife: lets try something different
mastertheknife: open regedit
mastertheknife: in HKEY_CURRENT_USER->Software->wine->drivers set "Audio" to alsa
mastertheknife: maybe now tf2 will work
mastertheknife: can also try "default"
FliPPeh: Trying
FliPPeh: It ran "fine" without sound
FliPPeh: Little sluggish
FliPPeh: But I heard that's common the first few rounds
mastertheknife: its strange that alsa is not detected in your wine
FliPPeh: think I just found the issue
mastertheknife: I used to have both alsa and oss detected
FliPPeh: err:module:load_builtin_dll failed to load .so lib for builtin L"winealsa.drv": libasound.so.2: wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS64
mastertheknife: now just alsa :S
FliPPeh: fixme:jack:JACK_drvLoad error loading the jack library libjack.so.0, please install this library to use jack
FliPPeh: err:module:load_builtin_dll failed to load .so lib for builtin L"wineesd.drv": libesd.so.0: Kann die Shared-Object-Datei nicht öffnen: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
FliPPeh: The last part says "Can't open shared object file: not found"
mastertheknife: oss is old and deprecated no point in using it through wine because the oss you have in your system is alsa emulation
mastertheknife: so its better to just use alsa
mastertheknife: you have weird issue there
mastertheknife: seems its trying to load 64bit alsa libs for 32bit program
FliPPeh: AHA!
FliPPeh: I found it
FliPPeh: Yers
FliPPeh: Had to install lib32-alsa-lib
FliPPeh: Detected now
FliPPeh: See, this is an issue windows users rip their hairs out for
FliPPeh: No console - no debug
mastertheknife: heh
FliPPeh: Let's see.
riisen: wheres the party ! ;D
FliPPeh: Here's the partaaay
FliPPeh: Oh god, I love nasty music
riisen: FliPPeh, awesome!!!
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: it works ??
FliPPeh: mastertheknife: It's loading
FliPPeh: I'll tell you in a minute
FliPPeh: Wheeeen I watch you, wanna do you, right where you're standing... right on the foyer, on this dark day, right in plain view...
FliPPeh: Lala
FliPPeh: Loading ressources...
FliPPeh: Initializing game data...
FliPPeh: CONTINUE
FliPPeh: Hah
riisen: making a sandwhich...
mastertheknife: riisen: are you also a tf2 player ?
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: so it works? :)
FliPPeh: mastertheknife: runs
FliPPeh: But the sound is being moronic
riisen: mastertheknife, nope :P
FliPPeh: You know when a disk is scratched and replays that second over and over again?
FliPPeh: Yes, it's like that
mastertheknife: maybe the sound files are corrupted
mastertheknife: can try re-creating cache
FliPPeh: Probably not
FliPPeh: I did it yesterday
riisen: but probably will be if theres a linux steam client && source engine :P
FliPPeh: riisen: I'll wait for you!
mastertheknife: try unchecking mic boost i guess
riisen: FliPPeh, ;D
FliPPeh: mastertheknife: ingame or steam settings?
mastertheknife: in game
FliPPeh: steam settings wouldn't obey me
FliPPeh: kay
mastertheknife: or even disabling voice entirely
mastertheknife: in the codeweavers forum
FliPPeh: Oh god, the most annoying thing is that you can't skip the intro
mastertheknife: many people said copying their windows tf2 install fixes the error
mastertheknife: you can
FliPPeh: I have no windows install
mastertheknife: -novid or -nomovie i forgot which
FliPPeh: I have no windows even :)
riisen: have been windoze free since early 2009 :P
FliPPeh: Late 2009 :)
riisen: :)
FliPPeh: It's a better life, really
riisen: xD
FliPPeh: I only have a crippled winxp on my laptop for when I really need it
FliPPeh: But it's being started less and less often
mastertheknife: i have XP but i never boot to it :S
FliPPeh: :)
mastertheknife: except to test a windows program i'm developing from linux
mastertheknife: lol
FliPPeh: It's a pain to start it even
FliPPeh: About 3 minutes to the login screen
FliPPeh: And then everything wants to update
FliPPeh: flash, antivir (HAH!), adobe reader, ...
mastertheknife: I feel like dumping windows and installing it in a virtual machine
FliPPeh: So count 6 minutes to a usable system
mastertheknife: (virtualbox 3.0)
FliPPeh: Note to self: do NOT remove window decorations when game is running
mastertheknife: kwin also eats little fps but i cant let myself kill it
FliPPeh: OpenBox here :)
mastertheknife: i just disable compositing from KDE's control panel before playing
mastertheknife: I have no compiz but my KDE4 uses compositing
mastertheknife: i just did a test
mastertheknife: i ran glxgears: 38305 frames in 5.0 seconds = 7660.872 FPS
mastertheknife: 38064 frames in 5.0 seconds = 7612.542 FPS
mastertheknife: disabled compositing from KDE's system settings and ran glxgears again
FliPPeh: glxgears is no scale :)
mastertheknife: 87448 frames in 5.0 seconds = 17489.422 FPS
mastertheknife: 83368 frames in 5.0 seconds = 16673.518 FPS
mastertheknife: but yea you are probably right..i should find a benchmark program
mikeplus64: mastertheknife: You can disable compositing much quicker with a hotkey that by default is ALT+SHIFT+F12.
mastertheknife: oh its F12
riisen: 69587 frames in 5.0 seconds = 13917.324 FPS
riisen: 73612 frames in 5.0 seconds = 14722.285 FPS
mastertheknife: I kept trying F2 and then wondered why it never worked
mikeplus64: lolol
mastertheknife: ALT+SHIFT+F12 doesnt work here :|
mikeplus64: You can check the hotkeys in systemsettings > Keyboard & Mouse > Global Keyboard Shortcuts
FliPPeh: Hm
FliPPeh: Runs almost fine
FliPPeh: including sound
mastertheknife: Yeah i just checked.. suspend compositing is mapped to Alt+Shift+F12
mastertheknife: why doesn't it work then :| lol
mikeplus64: Weird.
mikeplus64: If you're using Compiz then there's the problem.
mastertheknife: no compiz installed
mikeplus64: :S
mikeplus64: What KDE version?
mastertheknife: 4.3.5
FliPPeh: stupid medic bots
FliPPeh: THEY NEVE RHEAL
mikeplus64: is running 4.4.3 in Arch - hasn't bothered to update to 4.4.4 yet.
FliPPeh: It's running AWESOME
FliPPeh: I have no numbers
FliPPeh: But every detail on very high
FliPPeh: About 150?
FliPPeh: Just some light artefacts
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: just need to tackle sound now eh ? :)
mastertheknife: The only issue i have tf2 is that it freezes for like 2-4 seconds every like 10 min
mastertheknife: and many times i die because of that
mastertheknife: im not sure if i dont have enough ram or its a wine issue
mastertheknife: i only have 2GB on my 64bit gentoo, with another 2GB on the way but it doesn't seem to be the issue because free reports only 1.3 GB of ram in use, rest cached
mikeplus64: matertheknife: Try running "qdbus org.kde.kwin /KWin org.kde.KWin.toggleCompositing" - you could set the launchers of to run that and the game itself.
mastertheknife: mikeplus64: that command worked
mastertheknife: I wonder why other KDE shortcuts work but not this handy alt+shift+f12
mikeplus64: Bizarre
mastertheknife: hey i just discovered a new cool shortcut... CTRL+F12
mastertheknife: can see my desktop icons and widgets while any program taking up the screen
riisen: mastertheknife, that isnt so new o.O
mastertheknife: That can save me some minimizing, too bad i didnt know about it earlier
mastertheknife: any other cool shortcuts ?
mikeplus64: CTRL+FSOMETHING
mikeplus64: CTRL+F8 shows the desktop grid
mastertheknife: wow awesome
mastertheknife: (ctrl+f8, that is)
mikeplus64: You can set your own hotkeys in systemsettings > Keyboard & Mouse > Global Keyboard Shortcuts .
FliPPeh: one man cheeseburger apocalypse
FliPPeh: ol!
mikeplus64: I like to switch workspaces with meta + z/x/c/v/b/n . ( yes, I use 6 workspaces :-)
FliPPeh: I have 4
FliPPeh: And 2 monitors
mastertheknife: I never use more than one desktop
mastertheknife: it just seems annoying that i cant drag a window into another desktop
FliPPeh: use openbox!
FliPPeh: Can do it there
FliPPeh: Also, KDE can do that
mastertheknife: with compiz it can
mastertheknife: but without compiz i dont think so
mastertheknife: i hope i'm wrong though
mikeplus64: You can.
FliPPeh: lame
Ivanovic: have a look at the bar where your task are shown
mikeplus64: systemsettings > Desktop > Screen Edges
Ivanovic: make sure that the desktop switcher app is there
mikeplus64: Under "other settings"
Ivanovic: you can just grab a prog title and drag it to a different desktop
Ivanovic: no problem, at all
mikeplus64: The "Switch desktop on edge" groupbox should be set to "Only When Moving Windows"
mastertheknife: mikeplus64: which is better, always enabled or only when moving windows?
mastertheknife: oh ok
Ivanovic: and with a rightclick on the top bar you can also select which desktop to display the stuff on
mikeplus64: I use "Only When Moving Windows" - always will make it so when your cursor hits the edges it will switch workspace.
FliPPeh: Day of defeat runs so nice
mastertheknife: mikeplus64: works nicely, thanks
mikeplus64: mastertheknife: No problem. ;)
FliPPeh: Also, the CPU doesn't get as hot as on windows
FliPPeh: Windows it spiked to 65 (64 is critical!)
FliPPeh: Onlay about 44 here
FliPPeh: lol onlay.
Ivanovic: uhm, don't trust sensor data!
Ivanovic: it is known that there is some 20° difference every now and then...
Ivanovic: (depends on how the readout is done and the likes)
FliPPeh: Nah, it was pretty correct
mikeplus64: Ivanovic: That could explain quite a lot...
mikeplus64: lol
Ivanovic: FliPPeh: how can you know this?
FliPPeh: I once had my CPU cooler completely blocked by dust and a program maximizing CPU usage
FliPPeh: When my BIOS started beeping, I took a probe
FliPPeh: Sensors detected 64
Ivanovic: FliPPeh: the prog reading the sensors works differently, so the stuff shown can be different
FliPPeh: When it stopped beeping, it was at 60
FliPPeh: And my BIOS is set to beep at 62
FliPPeh: :)
Ivanovic: ah, those are all different numbers!
FliPPeh: But yes, I've had my encounters with bogus readings, too
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: what CPU do you have?
Ivanovic: that is: the bios sensor is different from the sensor in the cpu (the cpu numbers are usually by far higher)
mastertheknife: those temperatures are kind of high
FliPPeh: And old update of lm_sensors would show my CPU at -127 degrees
mastertheknife: mine never goes past 50C under full load
Ivanovic: and normally there is no real problem with some 90°C at all!
FliPPeh: mastertheknife: AMD Phenom II X4 950
mastertheknife: there is a problem with 90C
mastertheknife: video cards can take 90C
mastertheknife: but normal processors shutdown at 80-90C
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: depends on the sensor
FliPPeh: The Phenoms are rated a maximum of 62 °C
Ivanovic: the main problem is that it is basically impossible to get exact readouts
Ivanovic: the reason for this is how the sensor works
mastertheknife: well it has to shut down to prevent damage
Ivanovic: it does monitor the difference between maximum allowed and current
Ivanovic: and maximum allowed does depend on the cpu itself, not on the whole cpu series
FliPPeh: Man, my 4 line stackoverflow answer has 21 upvotes
FliPPeh: That's awesome
FliPPeh: I'd just like 4 more to get that badge
FliPPeh: :D
Ivanovic: the problem is that there is no way to get the maximum allowed value
mastertheknife: Its just not healthy for the processor to run at 60-65C in the long term
FliPPeh: yep
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: are you using the stock cooler ?
FliPPeh: On the long run, the cooler the better
FliPPeh: mastertheknife: Nope
mastertheknife: and have you applied thermal paste?
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: yeah
FliPPeh: Arctic Cooling one
Ivanovic: so sensor progs can just read out the difference to max allowed and display some guesstimate value based on some common max values
FliPPeh: With the shipped paste of course
FliPPeh: Both top notch
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: you probably didnt put much or put too much
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: what i usually do is take out the cpu and heatsink
FliPPeh: mastertheknife: It's a common temperature range for a phenom
mastertheknife: clean both surfaces properly with alcohol
mastertheknife: they should be silky smooth
FliPPeh: Done all that
FliPPeh: My temperature is fine :)
FliPPeh: About 30 °C on normal running
FliPPeh: And spiking to 45 - 50
mastertheknife: then apply arctic silver or other thermal paste on the cpu and smooth out with a credit card to create a thin layer that covers all of the cpu
FliPPeh: Let's measure...
FliPPeh: 31
FliPPeh: And chromium is running a youtube FLASH video
FliPPeh: Pretty okay
mastertheknife: FliPPeh: oh those phenoms are hot :O
FliPPeh: Yep, they are
FliPPeh: 3,0 GHz at 4 cores can get hot
FliPPeh: But mine's always at 800 MHz when not playinmg
mastertheknife: what video card ?
FliPPeh: nVidia GeForce 9800 GTX+
FliPPeh: wait, not nVidia
mastertheknife: nice!
FliPPeh: ZoTac :)
mastertheknife: i'm 8800GT so you should definitely have no problems with tf2
FliPPeh: Yep, I don't
FliPPeh: All source games ran with maximum FPS on maximum settings on windows
mastertheknife: well L4D is tricky
FliPPeh: But when I took out some RAM, it sunk a bit
FliPPeh: L4D is fine :)
FliPPeh: Unless there's 100000 zombies
FliPPeh: I gotta purchase some 2 GiB RAM
FliPPeh: To get back to my default of 4
mastertheknife: are you running 64bit ?
FliPPeh: Yep
mastertheknife: I'm 64bit too and with KDE4 2GB doesn't seem to cut it anymore
FliPPeh: Yep
mastertheknife: i have another 2GB of same model on the way
FliPPeh: Normal usage is fine, because I run a VERY light weight system
FliPPeh: But games get slow
FliPPeh: I still need to find out the exact RAM I need...
mastertheknife: yeah
FliPPeh: But the next pile of money will go for a netbook
FliPPeh: I can't have enough computers
mastertheknife: Well, i have 2GB ddr2-800 rated for 4-4-4-12 at 2.1V so i needed ram that can do 4-4-4-12 at 2.1V
FliPPeh: Got this desktop, a laptop and a server running on an Atom D410 mini itx board
mastertheknife: so i bought the same model
mastertheknife: food time :)
FliPPeh: Hm
FliPPeh: Uptime 23 days
FliPPeh: I should get my NFS utils running again
riisen: more ram is always a nice idea.. maybee i should buy some more also
Ivanovic: just had a look at the bios readout of my temps
FliPPeh: Without restarting?
Ivanovic: coretemp thinks that my core2quad has some 51°C when idling, the bios thinks that the cpu temp is at 37°C
Ivanovic: FliPPeh: i run my irc client on an nslu2, i rebooted
FliPPeh: Ah, windows?
Ivanovic: huh?
Ivanovic: no
FliPPeh: coretemp is a windows utility :/
FliPPeh: I used it in the past
Ivanovic: coretemp is the name of the sensor driver that the intel cpu uses
FliPPeh: Ahhhh
MichaelLong: yep
FliPPeh: Yea, I should know that, my atom board uses that one
FliPPeh: :)
djura-san: o/
skyhirider: how can i redownload missing files from a package with apt? deleted an apache module and need to get it back
s_20: skyhirider: if ubuntu handles this as debian does all downloaded packages are still in /var/cache/apt/archives
s_20: you can use dpkg directly to re-install the packages you need manually
skyhirider: aww heck, reinstall does not download the file back
s_20: you can use dpkg -S to find out if you tried to re-install the right file
skyhirider: well. dpkg -S found the file, but its not there
FliPPeh: lol debian
FliPPeh: Arch Linux, wheee
skyhirider: well, thats a matter of opinion and does not help me atm
FliPPeh: Heh
FliPPeh: If the file are indeed missing from the files list of the package, reinstall SHOULD work
skyhirider: well, tried it both apt and synaptic, but reinstall does not do the trick
FliPPeh: Third party?
FliPPeh: Hm wait
FliPPeh: Debian handles apache packages in a special way
s_20: skyhirider: if dpkg told you the file in question is in the package then reinstall the package *is* helping
s_20: *reinstalling
skyhirider: probably doing something wrong here
skyhirider: odd thing is, i made a link to the file and when i deleted the link i got a segmentation fault and the file was missing since
FliPPeh: dun dun dun
s_20: links as in symlink or hard link?
skyhirider: nautilus middle click link creates symlinks, righ?
skyhirider: yep, just tested it
s_20: in that case you are entering new spheres of weird
skyhirider: ok, il try it another way, il get the .deb and manually copy the file from there
skyhirider: well, that seems to have worked, dont know why reinstalling didnt replace files
FliPPeh: heh
skyhirider: how simple, just had to find the .deb package in var, copy it to my desktop, get the files out of the .deb and untar the valid data directory, and then just copy it to my apache mod folder heh
mastertheknife: heh whatever works in the shortest time will win you a job :P
mastertheknife: oh he left
sannn: mastertheknife: it's quiet lately on the steam for linux front.. no updates, new versions or word from valve I suppose?
Nevtus: ugh, Valve really ARE playing up to the PC vs Mac marketing nonsense - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDo58jrb19E
christian_lappy: its funyy, not more
christian_lappy: could be a apple video also ;-)
Nevtus: it's the offical release trailer
FliPPeh: Think Bullets.
FliPPeh: I love any TF2 video
FliPPeh: Really.
christian_lappy: steam4linux is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar awy :-(
FliPPeh: Just a question...
FliPPeh: If you own the TF2 for windows
FliPPeh: Will you get the one for Mac, too?
christian_lappy: yep
FliPPeh: Sweet
FliPPeh: And why's steam for linux far away?
christian_lappy: t will take time until valve pushed out and polished all their games for mac
Nevtus: when you buy something on steam you own the "right" to download it on any supported computer. You'll be able to run your supported games on Linux if that client ever turns up
FliPPeh: christian_lappy: They have enough developers to multitask, really
Ivanovic: FliPPeh: are you sure that they got enough that know posix well?
christian_lappy: possible but they will push mac as fast as possible
Ivanovic: i guess that they want to have one working first (and put all resources into fixing its bugs) before releasing the next
christian_lappy: +1
Nevtus: Ivanovic: they can't even deal with case sensitive file systems yet. I'd imagine most of their devs are still heavy Windows users and are scared of anything else
Ivanovic: so yeah, the mac binaries could be seen as some kind of beta test
Ivanovic: Nevtus: yeah
FliPPeh: I think that Mac and Linux are pretty equal under the hood
FliPPeh: At least more similar than windows and *
Nevtus: they are both *nix but you'd be surprised how much Apple have added strange their own strange conventions to it
FliPPeh: Mhh
Nevtus: app bundles and the default being case insensitive are a few obvious oddities
FliPPeh: I wonder why the case sensitivity is a problem..
Nevtus: it doesn't use X11 either like most other *nix OSs
FliPPeh: Do they call "sOmEvOiCe.wAv" inside?
Nevtus: it acts like the way Windows does when it comes to file naming. Like something.txt and SOMETHING.TXT would be the same file (with the original case used preserved), on case sensitive file systems those would be different files
Nevtus: this can be a huge problem when programs written badly look for resource files
FliPPeh: Yes, that's a no brainer.. but why is it a problem? :/
FliPPeh: Meh, badly written programs.
Nevtus: if you have an image that is to be used called background.jpg, in insenstive systems you could get it using BACKGROUND.JPG or whatever. On sensitive systems the naming has to be exact
Nevtus: this is a rather silly program that is easily fixed but given all the horrible errors with it in that linux test binary Valve have a long way to go
FliPPeh: Yes, I got that, but it should be no problem to check for correct case in the source files (should have been done from the beginning) or manually fix that for user input
Nevtus: I suspect that Steam is held together with duct tape and sloppy programming. Given that I think they've even said that people on Macs set to case sensitive filesystems won't be getting a working Steam seems very bad
FliPPeh: That's lame
christian_lappy: up
FliPPeh: Duct tape?
FliPPeh: Made in Perl?
FliPPeh: :)
christian_lappy: e will not get steam until thats fixed
Nevtus: I was optimistic about Steam on Linux when that client link was found but I'm starting to think if something isn't shown at e3 we won't be getting a client for a looooong time
FliPPeh: Sloppy programming is the root of all problems
FliPPeh: They should make it open source.
mastertheknife: Nevtus: Valve is delaying it
Nevtus: they'd never open source Steam
FliPPeh: Can't someone reverse engineer the mac client? :)
mastertheknife: Nevtus: as rbarris said, they want to see how the mac client pans out before rolling a linux one
mastertheknife: heh
mastertheknife: Someone posted in forum that he got an error that loading a DLL failed
mastertheknife: and he's actually a mac user
christian_lappy: lol
mastertheknife: i guess they should change some strings and function names
Nevtus: mastertheknife: yes it's understandable from people who don't really know what life beyond Windows is like but if they don't annouce something soon I'm sure I'm not the only one that will lose interest
christian_lappy: it gets time
mastertheknife: Waiting for a linux client is like waiting for peace in the middle east
Nevtus: hah, if your mac client is trying to load a DLL something is VERY wrong
mastertheknife: we shouldn't hold our breath for it
FliPPeh: Sloppy coding.
mastertheknife: no it probably tried to load a mac library but the error string says DLL
Nevtus: mastertheknife: just joking ;)
mastertheknife: Nevtus: you got tf2 ?
Nevtus: I do but I've hardly played it. Don't have a Windows machine in the house anymore and wine performace is bad
mastertheknife: I personally can't wait for a linux client or i'll go nuts about the speculation etc, i just continue with life and hope to see it someday
christian_lappy: or never
mastertheknife: wine performance is actually very good with it, at least here but i use -dxlevel 81
FliPPeh: My RAM is acting up, otherwise really good performance
mastertheknife: I noticed a bug in TF2 though
mastertheknife: well i think it came from yesterday's update... the video settings dont save!
mastertheknife: this also happens on my brother's win7 machine
Nevtus: I've played Portal and Half Life 2 through wine but when it comes to playing online and can't get comfortable with the rather low FPS, it is playable though
FliPPeh: I think it's better when steam for linux comes out late :)
FliPPeh: I'm gonna be a student soon, can't waste my life on video games
FliPPeh_: Yuck
Nevtus: FliPPeh_: when you go to uni/college make sure to ignore the propaganda about needing a Macbook for study ;)
FliPPeh_: Nevtus: Gonna get a netbook!
FliPPeh_: And install my precious ArchLinux on it
Nevtus: good choice. Desktop/Netbook combo is the best
FliPPeh_: I've got a notebook, too, but for mobility outside the house a netbook is better
Nevtus: do you use Arch64?
FliPPeh_: Yep
FliPPeh_: But netbook will run 32-Bit
Nevtus: Adobe just cancelled Flash for 64-bit :(
FliPPeh_: :/
FliPPeh_: I still have it here
FliPPeh_: Cancelled forever?
Nevtus: yeah but it won't be getting updates, and the latest security holes haven't been fixed
Nevtus: the other versions have now been updated
FliPPeh_: Why'd they do that?
Nevtus: they suck
christian_lappy: *greatly*
Nevtus: FliPPeh_: http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=98904
FliPPeh_: How severe is that security hole?
FliPPeh_: For _linux_?
meGenius: Nevtus: i hope flash will go to hell
Nevtus: any security hole is severe. It'd be running as user but I'm sure you have stuff that matters in ~
FliPPeh_: But only 64 bit linux?
Nevtus: it was in all versions but since 64-bit Linux support has been dropped and now only the other versions got the new update it's now a real problem to 64-bit users
Nevtus: I think I'm just gonna get rid of it and do without
FliPPeh_: And THAT'S why monopoly is dangerous
meGenius: Nevtus: you don't need it except for youtube
FliPPeh_: But do people listen? No.
Nevtus: webm has just moved into the firefox nightlys so I might start using that for youtube
FliPPeh_: meGenius: Youtube now supports HTML5
meGenius: FliPPeh_: it doesn't support OGG
FliPPeh_: meGenius: Chromium :)
meGenius: which is the only supported codec (till now)
FliPPeh_: By the way, what about WebM for Chromium?
meGenius: i hate chromium
FliPPeh_: It's fine
FliPPeh_: At least it fits into the GTK theme
meGenius: it wasn't implmented yet
FliPPeh_: And doesn't carry it's own runtime
meGenius: what about FF??
meGenius: have you tried the latest mineField??
Nevtus: I think you can run the 32-bit version of Flash in 64-bit with some hackery but I think doing without is probably better :D
meGenius: Nevtus+1
meGenius: what about gnash, i think i'm going to try it
Nevtus: it's very immature. I'm not even sure it can handle youtube tbh
meGenius: then, damn everything related to the flash technology
FliPPeh_: Oh god
FliPPeh_: Even more annoying than flash is this football world cup
FliPPeh_: I can't eat as much as I want to vomit
Zerb_Riss: Nevtus: where did you find that out?
FliPPeh_: Gotta mow the lawn before it starts pissing from above
s_20: 17:53:54 < meGenius> what about FF??
s_20: besides eating ram and cpu for brekfast it's fine
meGenius: s_20: i don't want to tell you that it's completly wrong
s_20: and the awesome bar on linux is incredibly slow as the database grows
s_20: waiting a few seconds while it's doing god knows what when i just want to enter a URL is a real annoyance
meGenius: FF consumes a lot of the resources, but, the main rule of this is related to the Add-ons
meGenius: especially, some recommended add-ons
s_20: i never used anything besides adblock and/or the web developer plugin
meGenius: anyway, FF3.7 shows some progress in this field
s_20: and the awesome bar, whiel it was nice when it actually worked, was a real buzz kill
meGenius: s_20: damn web developer
gik: i found firefox less bloated than chromium on my boxes
meGenius: what is awesome bar
gik: it's really fud
meGenius: s_20: use firebug it's better
s_20: meGenius: the address bar in ff 3.0 and later
meGenius: OH! i didn't know :D
s_20: that'll also search your history for the strings you enter
s_20: and page titles, not just the URLs
s_20: and parts of the URLs as opposed to just the domain name
s_20: which is a nice idea
meGenius: it's very beneficiary
s_20: if it doesn't stop anything from happening for up to 10 seconds
s_20: at which point it just annoys the living crap out of you
meGenius: it doesn't happen to me
s_20: it did, on multiple computers
s_20: and then i jumped on the chrome bandwagon and everything was peachy
gik: i don't have this problem myself, and it's customizable
meGenius: s_20: i beleive there's a problem
s_20: it's also a lot faster than gecko in general
meGenius: maybe the binary you are using has a problem
s_20: so i haven't looked back yet
meGenius: yeah, webkit is faster
meGenius: i hope gecko2 & FF4 will kill all other browsers
s_20: nothing i miss from FF, it doesn't need the web devloper plugin because it has things like a (usable) JS debugger and such built in
s_20: ..and there's adblock for chrome, so i'm settled
Zerb_Riss: adblock for chrome is almost useless
meGenius: use what you find is the best for you
Zerb_Riss: also, the developer tools in Chrome are really bad compared to firebug
meGenius: for me, FF with its (BIT) slowness is better than any other browser
s_20: the slowness seems to be a linux issue mostly, i'm not talking about benchmarks but the actual user experience, say when i'm scrolling on a page
Zerb_Riss: I don't have a problem with that in Firefox
Zerb_Riss: unless the page has too much crap on it
Zerb_Riss: in which case I usually have problems scrolling in Chrome too
s_20: Zerb_Riss: chrome seems to handle it better somehow, on windows i don't feel that big a difference
Zerb_Riss: I really like Chrome, I'd probably use it for regular web browsing if the AdBlock extension could be improved
meGenius: s_20: what is your distro
s_20: debian
meGenius: s_20: have you did any benchmark??
meGenius: benchmarks*
s_20: no, i'm just talking about the way i personally perceived it
gik: s_20, have you tried to turning off anti-phishing and delete the concerned database? http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Firefox_Tips_and_Tweaks#Turning%20off%20anti-phishing%20to%20speedup%20Firefox
meGenius: do you use a deb package, or you build it yourself
meGenius: i doubt it's a distro problem
s_20: gik: i appreciate the fact that you looked this up for me, but i'm using chrome now and don't see why i should go back when i'm perfectly content with it now ;)
gik: k
s_20: meGenius: it's debian's flavour of firefox, iceweasel
meGenius: s_20: try to build the firefox then
s_20: there are no real differences though besides the obviousl removal of copyrighted material
meGenius: s_20: do that for me, please :)
s_20: meGenius: i'd much rather pick up my guitar now and then later do some coding myself ;)
meGenius: as you wish
ryan22: all hail the glorious iceweasel
meGenius: ??
ryan22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation_software_rebranded_by_the_Debian_project
s_20: meGenius: that's debian's FF flavour
meGenius: s_20: you just told me, i'm not the golden fish :P
meGenius: i mean, what does that actually mean??
meGenius: a crazy act from debian
s_20: meGenius: no
meGenius: instead of developing they are rebuilding the packages just for removing an icon
s_20: mozilla won't allow you to change anything and still use their trademarked brand name
meGenius: the trademarks have nothing to do with free-software
s_20: meGenius: they do
s_20: it's all free software
s_20: the trademark is not
ryan22: you cant call it firefox without mozilla permission
s_20: so they have to rebrand it if they want to change *anything*
meGenius: i know than
ryan22: its cuz mozilla is lcensing the firefox trademark from another company
meGenius: what did they change do??
meGenius: so*
s_20: and if mozilla doesn't agree with your patch, bad luck for you then
ryan22: recompliation
ryan22: anything really
meGenius: you are wasting your time defending such acts
s_20: meGenius: uh..what?
ryan22: i remember there were all sorts of optimized daily recomplied builds before mozilla adopted that policy
s_20: what were they supposed to do then?
ryan22: the trademark restriction killed them all off
ryan22: call it something different?
meGenius: ryan22: that is why there is mine field
meGenius: mine field is the under-development firefox version
s_20: meGenius: that doesn't answer the question
meGenius: so, that you can assure you are using a real firefox version
meGenius: it does
alexandernst: steam for linux!
s_20: mozilla has to like your changes
meGenius: you can't develop firefox
ryan22: meGenius: thats agianst the spirtit of open source
s_20: what ryan22 said.
meGenius: again, that's why there's mine field
ryan22: open source means you can freely modify, extend, and distribute the software
meGenius: develop mine field as you wish
ryan22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft
meGenius: the good changes will be adapted by mozilla
s_20: meGenius: at the end of the day you can't get all the patches you want in though
meGenius: s_20: you can, through mine field
s_20: and what's good and what is not is often a very subjective matter
meGenius: if you are a real fan of the patches use mine field
meGenius: if you want a stable version to use, use FF
ryan22: its not about that
ryan22: "The immediate problem caused by the new policy was Debian's inability to use the official Firefox logo due to its proprietary license failing to comply with the Debian Free Software Guidelines. Additionally, as Debian releases are frozen on a long-term basis, software in the frozen stable releases needs to be patched for any newly-discovered security issue. Under the revised guidelines, in order to use the Firefox name, approval from
ryan22: the Mozilla Corporation would have been required for all security patches, but the Debian project felt it could not put its security in the hands of an external corporation in that manner."
ryan22: debian backports security fixes to older releases of debian
ryan22: mozilla's policy was preventing them from doing so with firefox
meGenius: you are saying the same thing
ryan22: youre not getting the point
meGenius: i'm getting it
meGenius: you just want to patch the firefox
ryan22: i dont think you are
ryan22: yes
ryan22: with mozilla's OWN changes
meGenius: mine field = firefox for development uses
ryan22: and please dont make the argument that debian is unreiable
ryan22: debina does what minefield
s_20: how is that relevant for backports?
ryan22: *debian doesnt want minefield
meGenius: ryan22: because debian is a blob
ryan22: debian wants to backport STABLE bugfixes to older versions of firefox
ryan22: hahahahaha
meGenius: i'll brb
ryan22: you have no idea man
christian_lappy: i would like to see an kvm comparision ubuntu 10.04 vs redhat 5.5
FliPPeh_: Meh
mastertheknife: Nevtus: They really canceled flash for 64bit?
mastertheknife: Nevtus: 64bit is slowly becoming the mainstream, by killing 64bit flash, they are shooting their own foot
mastertheknife: and causing developers to move away from flash
ryan22: seriously
Nevtus: mastertheknife: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/06/11/1338207/Adobe-Temporarily-Kills-64-Bit-Flash-For-Linux?art_pos=6
ryan22: nspluginwrapper sucks ass
monreal: was there ever a non beta release of 64bit flash? I don't think so
Nevtus: nope, but there is no reason why such a beta should be cancelled. 64-bit is the future
mastertheknife: According to steam hardware survery, 25% are Win7-64bit users and 11% are Win7-32bit, this shows 64bit is really the future
mastertheknife: I wish i had numbers for linux but no idea where to get those
FliPPeh_: mastertheknife: There's a difference between 64 Bit Linux and 64 Bit *
FliPPeh_: They don't care for linux users
FliPPeh_: Never
Nevtus: they've never even had a alpha build for Windows 64-bit
monreal: and again, closed source software is holding back linux
Nevtus: nah, it just means Flash dies sooner
FliPPeh_: Hopefully
monreal: I have no problem with that :)
Nevtus: like I said, Windows doesn't have a 64-bit version either
FliPPeh_: Neither do I
FliPPeh_: Flash is obsolete
FliPPeh_: Videos don't need it
FliPPeh_: And I've ALWAYS avoided 100% "stylish" websites
FliPPeh_: 100% flash websites, I mean
Nevtus: I think I'm going to move to minefield for webm and get rid of flash now. I was going to wait till it got in the next stable firefox release but I'm not running an out of date plugin with the known security holes made public recently that will now never be fixed
FliPPeh_: Chromium!
Nevtus: nope. I need Adblock+NoScript+Vimperator at a bare minimum
FliPPeh_: I've got adblock :x
FliPPeh_: But no vimperator
FliPPeh_: It hurts for browsing
Nevtus: it just hides the ads
Nevtus: also I've never had performance problems with firefox
Nevtus: FliPPeh_: clearly you're not a tiling WM user then
Nevtus: FliPPeh_: http://hackademix.net/2009/12/10/why-chrome-has-no-noscript/
FliPPeh_: Nevtus: I was - I'd like to have one again, but I can't stand configuring sooo much
Zerb_Riss: so apparently Adobe isn't ditching 64 bit flash
Zerb_Riss: they just closed the 10 beta in anticipation of a 10.1 beta
Zerb_Riss: because they are retarded in the brain
Nevtus: it's unclear if they're doing that. It's possible there could be a while before they pick it up again
Nevtus: the other versions have already been updated
Zerb_Riss: http://www.zdnet.com.au/has-adobe-killed-64-bit-flash-339303810.htm
Zerb_Riss: read that
Zerb_Riss: and then read the first comment
Zerb_Riss: "There are plans to replace the now closed Flash Player 10 for 64-bit Linux prerelease with a new release built on Flash Player 10.1."
Nevtus: there is no timescale given. I don't think anyone is saying they've killed it for good
Nevtus: it's just crap being treated like this for using 64-bit in 2010
Sir_Brizz: it's just adobe
Sir_Brizz: this is typical of them
Sir_Brizz: for like 5 years while Flash 9 was out, Linux still had only Flash 7
Sir_Brizz: which made half of the flash sites out there non functional
Sir_Brizz: so honestly this is just par for the course with them
Nevtus: it's good that soon Flash won't matter
christian_lappy: hehe yeah :-)
Sir_Brizz: can't happen soon enough imo
FliPPeh_: Except video I didn't need flash
FliPPeh_: And even that I don't need anymore
FliPPeh_: :)
FliPPeh_: Life will be better without adobe
FliPPeh_: It was failure by design from the beginning
FliPPeh_: LIKE WINDOWS!
Sir_Brizz: for almost every purpose, Flash is the scourge of the internet
Sir_Brizz: IE and Flash are kind of similar that way. At one point, they were the best things to happen to the internet and slowly they became the worst things about the internet
FliPPeh_: Yup.
FliPPeh_: Yup.
FliPPeh_: what is flash good for?
FliPPeh_: Videos, Music
FliPPeh_: Obsolete
Nevtus: games and animation
FliPPeh_: Then people went ahead and made their whole wbesites in flash
FliPPeh_: And things got nasty
Nevtus: and javascript/html5/etc is catching up in that market
FliPPeh_: I've seen a javascript demo that actually PARSES a flash file
FliPPeh_: And displays it in pure HTML5
FliPPeh_: That was awesome.
Nevtus: I read about that but I also read it had terrible performance
FliPPeh_: Of course
FliPPeh_: But it WORKED!
FliPPeh_: Amazing enough for me
Nevtus: I hope the future isn't translating closed source files to open technology to get them to barely work :P
ryan22: bah: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2010-May/007505.html
ryan22: bunch of unproductive bureaucrats
Nevtus: installing KDE on Ubuntu is serious business
Nevtus: sorry, Xfce
ryan22: well all they do is backport from debian
ryan22: xubuntu is just a pretty theme
ryan22: they seriously program nothing for xubuntu
ryan22: and their own dev is IMPOSSIBLE to get ahold of
ryan22: *only
FliPPeh_: Mhhh
FliPPeh_: Spring Rolls
FliPPeh_: The requested URL /archives/xubuntu-devel/2010-May/007505.htm was not found on this server
FliPPeh_: :q
Azalyn: are you people *that* delusional?
Azalyn: you really think adobe is going to 'go away' because of html5?
ryan22: FliPPeh_: http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/mplayer-users/2009-December/078440.html
ryan22: make sure theres a "l" on the end
Azalyn: they are already going to update their latest tools for html5. like dreamweaver.
Azalyn: adobe makes money selling tools, flash does not mean shit to them, they may even kill it off themselves.
Nevtus: no one said anything about adobe going away
Azalyn: pre-html5, flash was simply the 'best way' to get rich content out there.
Nevtus: we said that flash is going away
Azalyn: [13:09:19] Life will be better without adobe
Nevtus: well, I guess FliPPeh_ did
FliPPeh_: :o
Azalyn: FliPPeh_: THE COURT FINDS YOU GUILTY.
ryan22: #phoronix, the nerd courtroom
Azalyn: anyways, even flash will not go away though. there is legacy content which will simply *not* be converted to html5/css/js/whatever. like most of the shit you see on newgrounds. not to mention that some people like being able to "bundle" all of their web app into a single file like swf, so it's easy to distribute/archive. i'm not sure if the W3C came up with a standard format for that yet..
Azalyn: if someone knows about that last point, i'd love to be enlightened, but i haven't heard of such a format proposal personally...
Azalyn: a good example of stuff that will never be html5 is all of the old content on newgrounds.com and albinoblacksheep.com
Azalyn: and any other similar site. and even though flash sucks, a lot of those things are cool..
Azalyn: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/285267
Azalyn: like this for example. :)
Azalyn: i would hate to think of not being able to watch that stuff ever again...
FliPPeh_: Oh yes
FliPPeh_: I remember that one
Azalyn: the correct solution is to make a better flash plugin. the specs are open, so it should be possible. like Gnash, only orders of magnitude better. oh, and multithreaded.
Azalyn: in theory the *spec* isn't that bad, i mean they're using actionscript which is more or less like javascript (both are based on ecmascript)
Azalyn: it is the *code* that is terrible.
Azalyn: is the opensource community really banded together to create a better plugin, instead of the pathetic gnash effort, we'd have a plugin that runs on everything and is fast as hell.
Azalyn: if**
Azalyn: of course, when it comes to video sites, i am definitely looking forward to sites moving away from flash.
Azalyn: that is pretty easy to do. just batch re-encode.
Nevtus: Azalyn: DOS has lots of old good games too but we moved on from that as our main OS. Then years later we replayed then in a clean FOSS application called DOSbox :D
ryan22: Video streaming websites require an order of magnitude more bandwidth than any other form of website. This means they will require an order of magnitude more *relevant* ads to survive as they require an order of magnitude more *revenue* to cover their costs. I can not think of a single profit-making video streaming website.
ryan22: I think we need a paradigm change to make true Internet video profitable. Ads, even if in some cases they *can* generate a profit when used on textual or pictorial websites catering to a niche, are not going to be able to sustain traditional centralized video streaming websites.
ryan22: video streaming == doomed
Azalyn: companies like google will not give up though.
ryan22: so other companies will form
ryan22: and displace them
Azalyn: i think peer2peer streaming is the only way really.
ryan22: so do i
Nevtus: we certainly couldn't do without easy access to keyboard cat videos :O
Azalyn: the only problem is that the fucking ISPs often have bandwidth limits..
ryan22: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18738598&postcount=43
Azalyn: which has the side effect that if you leave your browser open, you may be 'seeding' without knowing it..
ryan22: theres a solution to that
ryan22: Internet *access* should be a regulated utility. This utility should be charged by volume not speed. People have the right to access content and media, just as they have the right to access water and power.
Azalyn: yeah, create a protocol to automatically notify a pc through dhcp of what the limit is, and so on.
ryan22: just make internet access a utility
Azalyn: eh/
Azalyn: ?
ryan22: ;)
Azalyn: i'm not talking about speed.
ryan22: and cap the clients by default
Azalyn: i'm talking about the monthly limits
ryan22: "This utility should be charged by volume not speed."
Azalyn: like 10gb per month
Azalyn: etc
ryan22: so just have the client run a meter
Azalyn: that's an easy proposal, it's exactly what i just said, but the problem is getting every ISP in the world to go along with it.
Nevtus: do people that have 10GB per month connections want to use youtube and the like though?
Azalyn: personally i think that is a terrible idea though.
Azalyn: i want *unlimited* transfer.
Azalyn: with a fixed rate cost.
ryan22: unlimtied trasnfer is unsuistainable
Azalyn: i'd rather them charge for the speed.
ryan22: sorry
ryan22: its an outdated business model
Azalyn: it's sustainable enough that it's pretty much how it's done all over the place. :)
Azalyn: in fact, i have a business connection at home.
ryan22: well the isps already have caps
Azalyn: and i have unlimited transfer.
ryan22: and how much is that?
ryan22: btw my isp has 3 plans, with 3 diff caps
Azalyn: paying 200 dollars a month because you went "over the limit" is an outdated business model. :)
ryan22: its already happened, its just not explicit
Azalyn: my connection is about 70 a month canadian.
ryan22: thats not bad
Azalyn: it's 7mbit down.
ryan22: but not everyone needs unlimited
Azalyn: 640kbit up.
ryan22: i had unlimited for $50
ryan22: 5 down, 0.5 up
Modplan: We already have charge for data usage via wireless 3g internet services
Azalyn: sorry but if we start using p2p technology on a greater basis, then unlimited will be essential.
ryan22: nah
Modplan: but they're posed entirely as "on the go" solutions
Modplan: not replacements for home, unlimited connection
ryan22: you pay for water by volume
Azalyn: the solution is to upgrade the networks, i don't care how much money it costs them. they'll just have to deal with it.
ryan22: you will pay for bandwidth by volume
Azalyn: i don't pay water by volume.
Modplan: They make plenty of money to upgrade networks
Azalyn: we don't have meters for water.
ryan22: youre lucky again
ryan22: you pay for power by volume?
Azalyn: nope, this is the way it should be.
Azalyn: these companies are just whiny bitches.
Nevtus: I get unlimited for just under £14. And yes, it really as close as "unlimited" as you can get from a connection. My ISP has a history of never having secret quotas
Azalyn: unlimited is the way to go, end of story.
ryan22: in a perfect world yes
Modplan: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20071227/124634.shtml
ryan22: its not bandwidth
Modplan: It's a myth that somehow there's more demand than there is capacity for networks
ryan22: its ping time
ryan22: it needs to be regulatedf
Azalyn: if we're not in a perfect world, and my isp can afford to have an unlimited plan... then we don't need to be in a perfect world to have this.
Azalyn: fuck regulation.
ryan22: yes regulation
Azalyn: are you against net neutrality?
ryan22: i believe there should be multiple lanes on the information superhighway
Nevtus: ....
Nevtus: are you in the right irc channel ryan22?
Azalyn: so, that's a "yes, i am a fucking anti-netneutrality bitch"
ryan22: because having my voip call dropped so your bittorrent dl is finshed 10 sec is stupid
ryan22: *earlier
ryan22: and thats what happened
Modplan: no, the ISP fucked you over
ryan22: no in my house
ryan22: thats what happens
Nevtus: setup your router correctly
ryan22: so i have to enable protocol level qos
ryan22: and i cant make skype calls even then btw 7 and 9 pm
Azalyn: we have telephone over cable, which is pretty much voip in the backend, we never get any dropped calls, and the service is ideal, better than POTS in fact...
Azalyn: it's a competency thing.
ryan22: without them being a staticy mess
s_20: Azalyn: chill.
ryan22: POTS doesnt cost me $3./month
Nevtus: ryan22: whatever happens inside your own network has nothing to do with the internet as a whole
Azalyn: the technology works, but good luck trying to find good companies to buy service from.
ryan22: yes it does
ryan22: when im the only one home and skype never works buring peak times
Nevtus: your ISP sucks. move to a better one
ryan22: protocols using ack should ALWAYS have priority
ryan22: bell?
ryan22: how
Nevtus: you're probably sharing the same pipe with the rest of your street or something
ryan22: with dsl?
burra: have 10/10Mbps unlimited for 24€ a month. Had 100/100Mbps for a couple of months but downgraded to 10/10Mbps my home Linksys WRT54GL can only handle ~24bps troughput anyway.
burra: did not know what to do with 100/100Mbps
Azalyn: dsl does not scale as well as cable.
Azalyn: no matter what anyone says.
ryan22: cable i am sharing the pipe with the entire network
burra: happy camper with fiber to the basement
Azalyn: the burden of having to support POTS along with a new digital network is just too much.
ryan22: i would LOVE fiber
burra: CAT6 from basement up
ryan22: i hate gigabit ethernet running through my house
ryan22: *have
ryan22: fiber would be fantastic
Azalyn: where as coax was designed to have different signals on the same line, even a basic cable tv signal has a tuner that switches channels, each channel isolated from the other..
Azalyn: which a design like that, it's *far* easier to hack something like data transfer on top of that.
burra: only runninf 100Mbps home network.
Azalyn: with DSL it's just a broken mess.
ryan22: with cable i am sharing the pipe with the entire network
ryan22: *neighborhood
ryan22: cuz thats how cable works
burra: only time I felt I have been in need of 1Gbps is when I am watching 1080p movies of a network drive
ryan22: we should just abandon both broken technologies for fiber
Azalyn: to make matters worse, cable can realistically eliminate 'basic cable' and switch everyone to digital in the future, which would free up the entire line for digital data... phone carriers will have a *hell* of a hard time doing the same...
Azalyn: can you imagine? "oh, yeah... to use your telephone, you now need this box..."
Daekdroom: Lol
ryan22: copper sucks compared to glass ;)
Daekdroom: ryan22, copper is like.. less expensive?
ryan22: doesn't matter what form
Daekdroom: and using fibers for pretty much anything is overkill
Azalyn: well, you can use fiber to the node, or fiber to the curb
Azalyn: you don't *have* to change the wiring in someone's house, remember that.
ryan22: have 10/10Mbps unlimited for 24€ a month. Had 100/100Mbps for a couple of months but downgraded to 10/10Mbps my home Linksys WRT54GL can only handle ~24bps troughput anyway.
ryan22: not really possible with cable, unless the lines are PERFECT
ryan22: and youre next to the sation
Azalyn: fiber is completely usable in legacy networks.. in fact, most POTS communications today probably crossover onto fiber at some point.
burra: Daekdroom: fiber cable is less expencive than copper. But installing and end electronics make is more expencive for short cable runs
ryan22: man on my university fiber network i was getting stable 2.1 MB/s uploading to sourceforge
burra: for long installations they have stopped using copper long ago
Azalyn: coax is the best of the copper-based solutions though for carrying a diverse set of signals on one line.
ryan22: who cares what the best copper is
Azalyn: so cable companies have this huge advantage.
ryan22: glass is better than all of them
Azalyn: also, they have the advantage that people are *used* to the idea of having a 'set top box' for their TV, even for basic cable it was common to have descramblers and what not in the old days, and still today in many regions.
ryan22: its like sasying which version of windows is the best
Azalyn: so people *know* about that. the cable company can send you a box in the mail..
ryan22: they all goddamn suck, use linux
Azalyn: and that's that.
Azalyn: ryan22: copper is not windows. :)
ryan22: damn close to it
FliPPeh_: Linux \o/
Azalyn: nah. POTS could be windows.. but copper in coax would be BeOS or something.
ryan22: so incomplete
ryan22: and barely usable
ryan22: with linux quickly taking over the community
burra: I thik we will not see fiber to the desktop in any time soon. Fiber will end in the instalation closset
ryan22: well fiber should at least run to my house
Azalyn: but like i said, you don't need to use fiber all the way to the house, in fact that is completely *unrealistic*. idealy what you want is to upgrade a network incrementally, and get fibre as *close* to the homes as possible.
FliPPeh_: Linux should take over the desktop.
burra: ryan22: agree :)
ryan22: tell that to the politics
Azalyn: regions with higher demand will have fibre that is closer to their homes
Azalyn: and so on.
ryan22: glass >>>>> copper
s_20: i just read "religions with higher demand" and was very confused
FliPPeh_: But until Dell and friends stop " recommends Microsoft(r) Windows(tm) Vista (tm) Business" nothing is gonna happen
Azalyn: but more rural areas will probably stick with copper, and that will crossover into fibre a few miles away.
ryan22: same with egotistical nuts preventing linux from having a decent sound system
ryan22: *grrr* pulseaudio
FliPPeh_: Yay Alsa
Azalyn: where as in really high demand areas, it might be fibre all the way to the power pole outside your house :)
burra: did anybody read about the google security engineer that gave windows 5day to correct a security bug?
Modplan: how are the devs of pulse egotistical exactly?
ryan22: http://blog.o2.co.uk/home/2010/06/offering-fair-and-transparent-access-to-mobile-data.html#more
ryan22: they want a perfect sound sever, practicality be damned
ryan22: Modplan: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2010-May/011343.html
Azalyn: FliPPeh_: i am probably one of the biggest fans of opensource you will meet, but linux is simply not *ready* yet.
Azalyn: in fact, if we make a go for the desktop now, we are just going to get laughed at.
burra: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9177948/Google_researcher_gives_Microsoft_5_days_to_fix_XP_zero_day_bug
Modplan: That's not egotistical at all, that's correcting you, nor is it even an official PA dev as far as I can tell
ryan22: it's close. the devs just have to stop these endless political wars
Azalyn: ubuntu has managed to get 'easier', but it has done this in a way that makes it 'unpredictable' in many ways...
Azalyn: ubuntu has behavior in some cases that reminds me of windows.. :\
Azalyn: non-deterministic behavior.
Azalyn: where things happen and you're like "eh?"
ryan22: "The
ryan22: traditional ALSA driver semantics are interrupt-based. PulseAudio,
ryan22: with its emphasis on preventing excessive power consumption through
ryan22: timer-based buffering, expects the underlying driver to duly provide
ryan22: precise and accurate information. For the past three years this
ryan22: approach has utterly destroyed any semblance of "stability" in the
ryan22: audio stack -- for good reason: the drivers incorrectly assumed the
ryan22: underlying hardware duly acted precisely and accurately. We've been
ryan22: fixing these drivers as such symptoms appear, and we're by no means
ryan22: finished -- nor do I expect we'll ever reach such a milestone."
ryan22: whoops
FliPPeh_: Azalyn: We're not ready for the Desktop market of moronic users
Azalyn: i mean it's not really crashes, but it's not a good thing. like the other day i had like 30 popups that said "can't start blah blah" or whatever on the ubuntu box, and i hadn't even done anything... :|
Modplan: That's called fixing the real problem, not half arsed hacking things
ryan22: basically the idea of the pulse devs are like "let;s break everything to be PERFECT"
FliPPeh_: I had no prior linux skills and went ahead and installed ArchLinux
Modplan: so we shouldn't strive to fix long term problems because in the short term my audio might pop
FliPPeh_: Now I'm pretty fluent.
Azalyn: FliPPeh_: no, it's the opposite. ubuntu is ready for morons. because morons already deal with stupid bullshit on windows, and think it's "the norm", so they won't realize that linux is doing weird things.
ryan22: they also claim that pulseaudio fixes the hda drivers
ryan22: magically
Azalyn: people in the know however, will understand that an OS shouldn't behave this way.
burra: i have ended up running OSS now and it works perfect :)
FliPPeh_: Meh
Azalyn: getting rid of mono is a step in the right direction for sure though. :)
FliPPeh_: I've never used ubutnu in 4 years
Azalyn: i'm glad that gnome started this vala thing.
FliPPeh_: Much changes?
FliPPeh_: Many.
burra: OSS Open Sound System
FliPPeh_: More like "Old Sound System"
FliPPeh_: Or "Obsolete Sound System"
ryan22: Modplan: http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.phoronix.com%2Fforums%2Fshowpost.php%3Fp%3D133038%26postcount%3D305&h=aa361
ryan22: whoops
Daekdroom: OSS is deprecated.
FliPPeh_: Oh god facebook
FliPPeh_: How I hate thee
ryan22: Modplan: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=133038&postcount=305
Azalyn: FliPPeh_: i'm not surprised that you figured out arch. as a power user myself, i have to say, that to *me*, gentoo is easier than ubuntu.
ryan22: reminds me of "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
FliPPeh_: Azalyn: :)
burra: read a lenghty article about the linux sound problems. After that I switched to OSS
Azalyn: because ubuntu is trying to do all this magic shit to be 'easy', and i have no fucking idea what it's doing.
FliPPeh_: Might be just me wanting to KNOW my system
FliPPeh_: Windows didn't give me that
Azalyn: it does things behind the scenes. like eating babies or some shit.
FliPPeh_: Ubuntu didnt't give me that
ryan22: secret: the devs dont even know
Modplan: ryan22, i like how you're attributing random forum members as being representative of all pusleaudio devs
Modplan: keep beating the pulseaudio hate drum
FliPPeh_: Ubuntu especially is unpredictable
FliPPeh_: I don't like the mangement either
FliPPeh_: How they want to do everything radically different
FliPPeh_: Replacing GIMP with some unknown software
Azalyn: i don't think pulseaudio is bad for wanting a perfect server.. i think it's a good goal.
ryan22: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=132178&postcount=12
FliPPeh_: Change the entire C runtime
Azalyn: i think they are bad for releasing it NOW...
Azalyn: before it was ready
ryan22: Azalyn: but does that server have to do everything
burra: ok found it
burra: http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/06/state-of-sound-in-linux-not-so-sorry.html
s_20: FliPPeh_: i'm sure that routinely changing the C runtime helps you find bugs in your code.....
Azalyn: ryan22: well, our competitors have audio subsystems that handle all the apps out there...
ryan22: Why does switching devices requires an API that takes over the driver APIs and re-buffers the audio?
Daekdroom: Uhh, cause the kernel won't do that?
burra: best article I read about linux sound in a long time
FliPPeh_: They also wanted to switch from google to yahoo
Azalyn: of course, the competitors do a lot of shit i think is stupid, that we shouldn't be copying... but still. i don't see having a unified audio server as a bad thing.
ryan22: so you have separte services that do each job
ryan22: one for mixing, another for switching
ryan22: "Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. "
Azalyn: one example of those things that we shouldn't copy by the way... is microsoft's 'directshow' and apple's 'quicktime' ... linux has gstreamer for that.
Azalyn: i really don't see why we need that.
FliPPeh_: We also shouldn't copy bugs.
Azalyn: those 'frameworks' exist for one reason, because of proprietary codecs.
ryan22: we lso should diss the unix philosophy
FliPPeh_: Noooo
FliPPeh_: It's old but good.
FliPPeh_: I don't want software like Nero pop up on linux
ryan22: "Sure, adopting PA is a bit of a departure for a couple of old-style Unix philosophies (such as "everything is a file" -- which is a pretty stupid philosophy anyway). But complaining about that is not really a technical argument to me. If we want to have a good, modern sound system for Linux than leaving some Unix legacy behind is the right thing to do."
FliPPeh_: A behemoth that wants to do EVERYTHING
ryan22: from the head PA dev
ryan22: *shouldn't
FliPPeh_: "Everything is a file" is the BEST THING THERE IS
ryan22: if you don't like unix don't use it
FliPPeh_: Systeminfo? Read /proc/
FliPPeh_: Instead of querying some shit
Azalyn: the theory is that if you want other companies to be able to ship their proprietary codecs on your platform... and then all media players should be able to 'play' files with those codecs...
FliPPeh_: Named pipes
FliPPeh_: Unix sockets
Azalyn: that's the idea behind directshow
ryan22: Azalyn: ffmpeg
Azalyn: and gstreamer, and so on
ryan22: and mplyer
ryan22: *mplayer
Azalyn: yeah ryan, exactly. i think we should just link directly to ffmpeg
Azalyn: who cares about allowing proprietary codecs on linux.
ryan22: so make a build with that stuff excluded
ryan22: ffmpeg has different build commands for different licensing needs
Azalyn: gstreamer is just a useless abstraction, that eats resources for nothing. we should be taking advantage of the unique benefits that opensource gives us. and *this* is one of them, that we don't *need* these kinds of abstraction layers.
Azalyn: just like the kernel doesn't have a stable driver ABI, and doesn't need one.
ryan22: Azalyn: I agree
Azalyn: we don't need abstractions in userland just to make it easy for proprietary components to intermingle.
Daekdroom: You're not even going to comment on VLC, are you, Azalyn? :P
ryan22: gah not vlc
ryan22: don't get me started on vlc....
Azalyn: we have all these advantages and are not even using them, we're throwing away unix culture and philosophy in order to go with the stupid "windows model"
ryan22: its like mplayer done wrong
ryan22: Azalyn: and what does it get us? nothing but politics.
thomashc: ryan22, you really do hate everything
ryan22: yes i damn well do ;)
Azalyn: i haven't had much experience with vlc honestly.
thomashc: :P
thomashc: VLC is nice
ryan22: but i love unix
thomashc: Glad to see it moved to QT
Azalyn: i used it a few times, it broke a few times, i didn't use it anymore.
ryan22: mplayer is much much better
Daekdroom: Azalyn, let's just say VLC is a backend for a backend
ryan22: vlc is a poor man's mplayer
thomashc: I dunno about that
thomashc: it plays ANY format pretty much
ryan22: poor man = windows user
ryan22: not as well as mplayer
thomashc: not quite
ryan22: yes quite
thomashc: mplayer doesn't play all of what vlc does
thomashc: IMO
thomashc: and not as well
ryan22: Azalyn, let's just say VLC is a backend for a backend
thomashc: in my experiences
ryan22: vlc cant even do proper soft subs
Daekdroom: thomashc, VLC does play any format because it uses xine, gstreamer and all that shit at the same time.
thomashc: Daekdroom, mhm
Daekdroom: Whatever does it better.
Azalyn: i read on a forum that vlc was supposedly the "best player" for "mkv's" ... at the time i was trying to play melancholy of haruhi suzumiya from a fansub group called hitsuji. they had made mkv's with segment linking and what not. and i had read that vlc could handle the segment links.
thomashc: but not on windows probably
Azalyn: but yeah, it didn't work
ryan22: Azalyn: it proably would on the git build of mplayer
bkero: Azalyn: vlc mkv support is shit
ryan22: ;)
bkero: Azalyn: vlc ass support is shit
ryan22: vlc anything support is half-assed
bkero: There are some sub groups who intentionally make valid MKV files that VLC can't play, such as gg.
Azalyn: vlc was not working with the linking... and furthermore, everytime it got to a certain point in the video, it just 'restarted' and started playing from the beginning again...
Azalyn: it was totally *broken*
Azalyn: so i just went back to mplayer.
ryan22: mplayer just works
bkero: mplayer is your maker
Azalyn: mplayer is what i've been using for years, and has never failed me.
Azalyn: even the most broken shit-tastic files, or even incomplete torrents... play.
Azalyn: it's like magic.
bkero: mplayer is the video player of the elite hacker
ryan22: and with smplayer it even has a decent gui
bkero: Try Evennia
ryan22: with a decent options menu
bkero: Er, wrong project
bkero: Enna
ryan22: jesus the vlc one gives me nightmares
Azalyn: feh, i've gotten so used to cli+hotkeys that any ui feels 'slow' to me... even though it's probably just my imagination
burra: mplayer FTW. Have tried VLC on linux but why use it. IMO Mplayer is also faster that VLC
bkero: Enna is a media center based off of mplayer, by mplayer developers.
ryan22: mplayer >>> all
Azalyn: i was able to do 1080p (anime) video on my athlon 2.5GHz x2 with the experimental multithreaded branch at one point.
burra: ryan22: agree
Azalyn: ffmpeg-mt
Azalyn: not sure if that's merged yet
burra: last time I checked xbmc used mplayer
ryan22: they actually kicked the guy who did that stuff out of the dev team
alexandernst: wtf: http://www.vg247.com/2010/06/11/valve-e3-event-completely-cancelled/
ryan22: politics
Azalyn: eh? so it's not gonna merge? :|
ryan22: nope
Azalyn: what happened exactly?
ryan22: they told him just to fork it
Azalyn: eh
ryan22: http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/mplayer-users/2009-December/078521.html
burra: do we have anything else to rant about :)
Azalyn: what was the politics about?
burra: browser :)
ryan22: i dont use firefox because i already have an operating system
ryan22: ;)
burra: :)
burra: have been using chromium on linux and just feels good
ryan22: it has issues though with the pae kernel
thomashc: I am writing my own web browser
ryan22: so i just use epiphany
skyhirider: chromium has drawbacks however
Daekdroom: I use Firefox
Daekdroom: hides
ryan22: grabs torch and pitchfork
burra: skyhirider: drawbacks?
ryan22: :P
skyhirider: cant filter what you download with the browser, have to use the system to filter, adblocking and other content blocking on chromium downloads the files and then removes them fromt he renderer
burra: going to look for the tar
thomashc: I use wget and emacs!
skyhirider: also, my ssd gets hammered by i/o when using chromium, it uses a disk cache hard and my ssds cant handle it, firefox can disable disk caching, chromium has it disabled when using incognito but otherwise its not an option
Azalyn: ryan22: by the way, in terms of audio and what not, hasn't plain9 solved the problem already? how do *they* handle audio?
burra: skyhirider: have newer used ad blocking
ryan22: and then theres this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/infinityos/+bug/555493
Azalyn: plain9 uses a file for everything, even *networking* apparently, unlike traditional unix.
ryan22: eh i just one api that works
ryan22: *want
Azalyn: so it seems they must've come up with something.
skyhirider: well, i like to block certain content like flashing ads and flash, but ont like it being even downloaded on my pc, security issues too
burra: ok
ryan22: well the linux kernel has adopted major parts of plan9 all ready
skyhirider: whats plan9?
Azalyn: yeah, like /proc
ryan22: happily google fixed the issue above
Azalyn: but not for audio though.
Azalyn: skyhirider: unix's planned (no pun intended) successor.
ryan22: being able to crash my browser by going to about:plugins was pathetic
ryan22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs
skyhirider: ahh, neat, thanks Azalyn
Azalyn: skyhirider: it was developed at bell labs by many of the same guys that did unix.
Azalyn: but unix became 'good enough' for most people before plan9 had a chance to get out the door, so bell labs gave up on it, they opensourced it awhile later.
ryan22: Azalyn: think they just used oss
Azalyn: sort of like how windows is "good enough" for most people... :\
burra: chromium shuld fix the download system, FF has a better one IMO, then flash is a buggy. But I think that might be the same with all browsers
Azalyn: ryan22: i would imagine that for each app that wants to use audio, they'd have to use a separate file though, right?
ryan22: i dont have any issues with flash on anyother browser
thomashc: they should make it easier to use third pary download managers
burra: ryan22: ok :)
Azalyn: you couldn't have just one /dev/dsp for every single app that wants to simultaneously use audio..
ryan22: Azalyn i think they just used vanilla oss
skyhirider: i think if they implement the good stuff from chromium into ff4 than we should all be happy, but question is how many more users will google steal
ryan22: mozilla is dead as they dont support h.264
skyhirider: true
ryan22: they should just bind the thing to ffmpeg and call it a day
Azalyn: yeah, ossv4 has mixing with vmix, but i'm not sure where it is done.. and how they manage the access to the file.
skyhirider: too bad webm is a weaker h264
Azalyn: for browsers, i cannot wait until firefox 3.6.4
Azalyn: which will have plugins in their own process.
Azalyn: then i'll be able to kill -9 flash when it misbehaves
ryan22: hmm
Azalyn: without firefox dying.
skyhirider: one thing is true thou, when i was installing firefox i needed a lot more packages and disk space than chromium
Azalyn: skyhirider: compared against h264 'baseline profile' (which is what matters most on the web), vp8 might actually be *better* than h264.
burra: chromiums sandboxing + multithreding is great
skyhirider: really?
Azalyn: skyhirider: that seems to be the general consensus.
skyhirider: heard it has a lower bandwidth than other codecs, so its good for google and youtube
Azalyn: there's no way it can compete with the higher end profiles, but with baseline it appears that it can compete.
skyhirider: at least compared to ogg
ryan22: Azalyn: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377
skyhirider: yeah, read that too
Azalyn: ryan22: i know about that.
burra: yepp
ryan22: webm has higher cup use for endoing and decoding and less quality per bit
ryan22: *cpu
ryan22: it will never match x264
Azalyn: dark shikari is the *one* who said it could be better than baseline profile.
Azalyn: also, that article is outdated now, he's said more in irc about it.
ryan22: eh web streaming is doomed anyways from the reasons i said an hour ago
ryan22: i could care less about baseline
Azalyn: as i said, companies like google will stay in the game. it's true that small players will not be able to compete for a very long time...
Modplan: SOCIALISM IS EVIL AND REQUIRES TOO MUCH HAIR....sorry that was yesterday
ryan22: not outside the us
Azalyn: but youtube isn't going anywhere.
ryan22: but youtube doesnt sell anything
ryan22: outside the us
Modplan: technically youtube sells attention :p
burra: decoding and encoding should be HW acceletrated anyway to be of any use. You can olny get so far with SW. Maybe save 10% but by putting it in HW one can do so much more wit less
Azalyn: i dun really care though. as long as i can enjoy it. :O
skyhirider: attention is the best commodity to sell nowadays, too big of a market to get all the attention you want
ryan22: http://bugs.adobe.com/jira/browse/FP-3146
burra: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4969729965240981475#
ryan22: vote for va-api support in flash
Azalyn: you know what? i read on slashdot today that adobe is killing flash 64bit...
Azalyn: :|
Azalyn: which means it looks like we'll have to go back to netscape plugin wrapper.
skyhirider: wish flash wasnt so dominant on the web, i hate that stuff, but at least its so easy to block so that evens it up
Azalyn: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/06/11/1338207/Adobe-Temporarily-Kills-64-Bit-Flash-For-Linux
burra: I would like a PCI card with a FPGA chip on it do video codec encode/decode. Then one can also just flash the FPGA to get a new/updated codec
Daekdroom: Why not just kill Flash? :|
Azalyn: i tell you, it's a *good* fucking thing that firefox 3.6.4 is going to have out-of-process plugins... because going back to netscape plugin wrapper so that i can use 32bit flash on 64bit firefox is making me sick already.
burra: it's only webpage creators that can kill flash
Azalyn: at least with 3.6.4 it won't matter.
Daekdroom: Azalyn, well, I'm using 3.6.6pre and using Flash creates a plugin-container proccess..
skyhirider: well, from what i read on the new flash blog post the devs say that 64flash is on its way, but cant disclose the schedule for it
ryan22: so its not a priority
ryan22: gah
ryan22: flash needs to die
Azalyn: Daekdroom: where is 3.6.6 exactly?
Daekdroom: Azalyn, honestly? no idea. I'm using a daily build repo.
Azalyn: heh, feh.
Azalyn: i want a stable release.
Azalyn: 3.6.4 is supposed to be the first stable release that will have out of process plugins.
Azalyn: and you know, i can't believe we've come full circle and you're all talking about "killing flash" again... i just got done earlier enumerating several reasons why it will never completely die.
Azalyn: and why there needs to be an opensource plugin for it. (like gnash only much better)
thomashc: if it survives, it will be in a different form
thomashc: Apple not supporting flash on the iPhone/Pad/etc is a big blow'
Azalyn: well, every now and then when you go to watch an animation on newgrounds.. you'll need it.
thomashc: yeah
thomashc: I don't think flash was ever really intended for video
thomashc: Small things like that, it would be ok for
ryan22: flash is great for animation
ryan22: sucks for everything else
thomashc: exactly
ryan22: and god help if you've ever made a web page in flash
thomashc: I did some work with flash in my engineering class last semester
ryan22: *you
skyhirider: man, i really hated those web pages in flash, jeez
skyhirider: still some around
thomashc: same
ryan22: they;re as hard to code as they are to use, trust me
ryan22: theres a reason why all the web devs want flash to die
thomashc: I've heard thay are only for people who cant code lol
ryan22: they are
thomashc: *they
skyhirider: main thing is i cant understand why big pc companies use them, you cant even use a link to the specific product, it always opens the main page
Modplan: http://www.nintendo.co.uk/NOE/en_GB/games/wii/super_mario_galaxy_2_13677.html?cID=374&lID=costarmode&loc=enGB&flashcontent=04_01_01
thomashc: if they are hard to code then...?
Modplan: FLASH ATTACK
ryan22: jesus you dont actually code the page, you "animate it"
thomashc: I know
thomashc: but still.
ryan22: worse paradigm ever
thomashc: I found the flash software....shitty
ryan22: for web pages
thomashc: yeah
thomashc: the flash software is almost as bad as MS frontpage
thomashc: and MS Frontpage is a piece of shit
ryan22: well to be fair at least frontpage had decent templates ;)
thomashc: for 1997
skyhirider: ahh, remember when i was installing visual studio, that was a 4 hour bloody nightmare
ryan22: they were cutting edge at that time
thomashc: lol
thomashc: it isn't so bad really
thomashc: ryan22, I mean MS Frontpage from 2003
burra: any seen the h264 decoder that uses OpenCL that is faster than nvidias vdpau
thomashc: made web pages that looked like 1995-98
ryan22: coreavc is nice
ryan22: but it has throughput issues
burra: yes that was the name
skyhirider: installed, wanted updates, updated, wanted restart, then other updates, then other updates, then other restart, jeez
burra: ryan22: thanks
skyhirider: bloody nightmare
ryan22: it caused my audio to subtlely skip on windows
thomashc: skyhirider, haha, it's better now
ryan22: cuz of all the bus traffic
burra: that is how a decoder should be done
skyhirider: they cant make a big update, they can just make incremental ones jeez
ryan22: its overengineering
skyhirider: cant make one big xxxmeg file that goes up to date
ryan22: vdpau just used the vid hardware directly
ryan22: coreavc is nice but i got half the cpu use with vdpau
burra: ryan22:
burra: o
burra: k
ryan22: eh
ryan22: i spent $15 on it
ryan22: so i can rant ;)
FliPPeh_: :o
ryan22: skyhirider: you should see the word reader service packs
burra: but with openCL one can update the code with vdpau one need to buy new hw for a new codec
Flyser: next question: Is it possible to disable the context menu of a WebView and show the context menu of the plasmoid instead? again: using the javascript api?
thomashc: Flyser, hmm...check the docs, I'm not quite sure, it should be possible, though
burra: think i need to buy the coreavc $13 is really cheap
burra: its about 2 beers
burra: on the bar
Flyser: thomashc: I can't find anything in the docs. what should I look out for?
ryan22: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=c6e56e97-17d7-4c48-9b2e-474cb3cdcc45
ryan22: man theres a point where you just release a new version
ryan22: burra want my key?
thomashc: Flyser, The WebView docs probably, I'm sure you can change the context menu, I 'm not sure about using the JS api though, sorr I'm not much help.
burra: ryan22: hmm,
burra: must think
Flyser: thomashc: Well it works in python, but the js api is too limited. but maybe there is another aproach ... ?
burra: credit is where cridit due
burra: think i can give them 13 buks
thomashc: Flyser, I don't know JS, but I wonder if you could use python for some of it, try the KDE forums? I dunno
ryan22: im no longer using it
ryan22: and plus the upgrade is like $5
burra: ryan22: ok
burra: ryan22: no I will buy it
ryan22: eh your choice
burra: ryan22: :)
ryan22: the bastartds did have it open source at one point
ryan22: and decided to reap the benefits before closing it when they wanted to sell it
burra: ryan22: ok
ryan22: lol same divx really
ryan22: *as
ryan22: openavc how we miss you
thomashc: ROFL
thomashc: http://gizmodo.com/5561035/google-street-view-captures-couples-first-dry-hump
ryan22: lol
ryan22: man gizmondo
ryan22: are they still selling iphones?
ryan22: and disrupting tech confs by shutting off all the screens
ryan22: *stealing
thomashc: lol
ryan22: http://gizmodo.com/343348/confessions-the-meanest-thing-gizmodo-did-at-ces
ryan22: i think apple refused to give them press passes for wwdc too
thomashc: they did
ryan22: they kinda deserved it
burra: any opinions about the nokia N900?
burra: been looking into it
burra: seems quite nice
burra: just the thing that one can run wireshark on it :)
monreal: burra: it's more than nice... but the fact that they release this device and then completely scrap their software stack... judge yourself
burra: monreal: you mean for the meego?
monreal: for maemo5 (is that what the n900 ships?) they used a stack based on mobile gnome
wao: h/w 40
monreal: for the next maemo (and now meego, right) they went for qt
burra: monreal: hmm
burra: I can understand that they go for qt, nokia boutght qt. But shure is breaks the platform
monreal: a mobile platfrom should be "stable" for a few years
monreal: they announced the switch to qt (and c++) even before the first n900s shipped to end users
burra: monreal: ok
burra: monreal: any ideas if the next meego "OS" will support the n900
burra: mayby not, nokia is a hw company they want you to buy new hw for to get the next.
monreal: you can install the current meego on the n900
monreal: not sure what works, though
burra: monreal: aha nice
burra: then again that makes sence since they can use the n900 as developmet hw
monreal: I don't think there will be an official wirmware upgrade for the n900, bringing it to meego
monreal: *firmware
burra: monreal: just have to wait and see
monreal: sure...
burra: monreal: what would you do buy a n900 or wait for a n9?
monreal: as I have given up on nokia, I am waiting for the "nexus2"
burra: ok :)
burra: might agree that andorid is more like a "phone" the nokia is a pocket computer
burra: and beeing a pocket computer is not always a good thing
monreal: n900 is a nice "playing device" IMHO
FliPPeh_: UHhh
FliPPeh_: Can it make calls?
FliPPeh_: I always feel pushed to ask the question with such devices
FliPPeh_: Especially the iPhone
burra: FliPPeh_: I can, I have seen people calling other with a N900
FliPPeh_: kay :)
burra: *it
FliPPeh_: Hm
FliPPeh_: Nice youtube podcast
FliPPeh_: "This Week in Linux"
burra: link?
FliPPeh_: http://www.youtube.com/user/thisweekinlinux#p/a/u/0/xslhrB7C4u8
FliPPeh_: Hey, he tested ArchLinux :)
FliPPeh_: Go Arch Linux!
burra: eyey
FliPPeh_: :)
burra: wathing the Meego review
FliPPeh_: I like his beard.
burra: :)
RambJoe: wtf
RambJoe: http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10_64bit.html?
RambJoe: FUCK ADOBE
mastertheknife: heh its true
Dandel: RambJoe, all you can do is install the 32 bit libs from the tar.gz file and install manually from there.
RambJoe: but i wont be able to use 64 browesr?
Dandel: yes, you can.
Dandel: firefox works just fine with the 32 bit plugin installed
RambJoe: :D
RambJoe: you cant on windows
Azalyn: [18:53:13] FUCK ADOBE
Azalyn: fuck adobe because they are planning to release 64bit on all platforms at a later date? :|
Azalyn: of course, it would've been better for them to make at least *one* more release to fix the security issues...
Azalyn: but feh, we can't ask too much from any proprietary vendor.
Azalyn: what's worse though is apparently there are some bugs with the new 10.1 that prevent it from working with nspluginwrapper... at least according to the changelog in gentoo portage. :\
Azalyn: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1507306
Azalyn: jesus flippin' christ, it's a good thing that firefox is doing out-of-process plugins for their next release (3.6.4), we have never needed it more than now...
RambJoe: oh i didn't read whole article
Azerthoth: yeah, those pesky facts always get in the way of a good rant