Phoronix IRC Log: 2010-06-10
ryan22: anyone still up?
mikeplus64: It's 17:10 here.
Azerthoth: wow your clock is a bit off
Azerthoth: it's 0706 everywhere
mikeplus64: Oh dear.
Azerthoth: well, its actually only 2307 here, 0707 GMT
Wowi: you are all wrong. it's 10:16.
oNNy: it's 09:20 CEST :)
suy: are there not any comprehensive tutorials on how to set up PTS on windows 7 x64?
suy: the most i've found thus far is the README file which just says that you need CPU-Z and PHP
suy: which really doesn't say much...
mikeplus64: suy: Post-traumatic stress?
suy: the phoronix test suite might give me post traumatic stress disorder without a guide for dummies! :D
suy: that being said, i think i figured it out
mikeplus64: Oh right, there I was trying to figure out what PTS was.
suy: took quite a few trials and error though :-x
suy: i'm currently waiting for the "gaming" test to download
suy: like 5 gigs of stuff on a slow ass shared line
Ivanovic: though this does not mean that it will not be "portal2 linux exclusive"
giselher: I think the surprise is STEAMONLINUX :D
Ivanovic: giselher: the surprise is at least portal2 related
Ivanovic: something like "first month it is linux exclusive" would be a huge surprise, right?
giselher: Steam on Linux would also mean Portal 2 on linux
maligor: nah, I think Valve will announce Microsoft Office for Linux
mikeplus64: In Soviet Russia, Steam announce you?
FliPPeh: DID OSMEONE SAY STEAM AGAIN?
FliPPeh: starts shaking. Again.
FliPPeh: Seriously, stop doing that
FliPPeh: I get excited!
jelly12gen: FliPPeh: lol
suy: i'd be more excited for episode 3, but i'm not getting my hopes up
jelly12gen: games are overrrated
suy: HL2 isn't :-p
suy: HL2 is seriously like one of the greatest games ever made
Ivanovic: suy: it was already said, the surprise is that portal2 will be released in 2011
suy: yeah, i know
suy: i'm just saying i would have preferred it to be episode 3
FliPPeh: The whole HL story is the best one ever
Megagun: I thought it was quite mediocre
Ivanovic: what about the story of "the witcher"?
Ivanovic: that was fun, deciding between terrorists and nazis!
GNU\colossus: Three words: Baldur's Gate Trilogy.
Ivanovic: uhm, trilogy?
GNU\colossus: Ivanovic: many consider Throne of Bhaal as an abriged 3rd installment
Ivanovic: uhm, okay
Ivanovic: what about tales of the sword coast, the BG1 addon?
GNU\colossus: that's why the mod that allows you to play BG1 + Addon + BG2 + Addon in a stringent manner was named "BGT"
GNU\colossus: Baldur's Gate Trilogy
GNU\colossus: well, TotSC did provide some extra adventures, but it felt a bit "tacked-on", don't you think?
GNU\colossus: like ToB's Watcher's Keep
GNU\colossus: ToB did bring the hero's story to an end
Ivanovic: it was, since it was a plain addon...
Ivanovic: regarding story: what about gothic 1 and 2?
Ivanovic: those were neat, too (though always buggy at the beginning)
Ivanovic: hmm, no new gemrb release since november 2009
Ivanovic: i hope that the project is still active and that i can soon play planescape torment
Ivanovic: that is: in 2 month when my pandora finally does arrive...
Ivanovic: regarding story in a shooter: what about max payne?
Ivanovic: that one was well done, too
Megagun: Deus Ex?
Megagun: Maybe not that much a shooter, but still
Ivanovic: never played that one
Megagun: Shame on you!
Ivanovic: regarding story: the original monkey island series (the first three parts)!
Megagun: I think that Deus Ex and Star Control 2 have the best stories.
cmol: hey guys
meGenius: are you ready for the World CUP??
meGenius: then, go to hell :P
jelly12gen: meGenius: care
meGenius: you know, everybody is talking about the world cup today, talk with them you have nothing to lose :P
meGenius: in fact, i don't care about it a lot
FliPPeh: Fucking world cup
FliPPeh: I can't hear it anymore
FliPPeh: Every goddamn TV advertisment is football themed
FliPPeh: Every goddamn car has germany flags here
meGenius: you forgot something
FliPPeh: EVEN MY FAVOURITE COCKTAIL TOMATOS PLASTIC PACKAGE NOW SAYS "WORLD CUP TOMMIES"
FliPPeh: I'm freaking out
meGenius: everyone is wearing a football t-shorts
FliPPeh: Oh god
FliPPeh: Oh yeah
FliPPeh: Our "football superstars" now advertise for everything that has enough money to remotely afford it
FliPPeh: The serious news senders tell me how soon it starts, right between a report about a deadly explosion in a house with 3 victims and a case of murder
FliPPeh: I should get out
FliPPeh: My blood pressure is running high, and I'm only 20 years old.
meGenius: calm down, FliPPeh
alexandernst: steam for linux!
giselher: who wants steam for linux?
Azalyn: yo momma.
riisen: giselher, i do
giselher: I have a f** brilliant Idea :D
giselher: We could donate for a Linux client, like everyone of has donated to a good oss software project :D
riisen: giselher, well.. we arent sure they will make a client cuz we donate... so its a risk we donate and dont get the client.. therefor i will not donate for it..
giselher: No risk no fun ;D
riisen: but i dont even use steam...
riisen: only have linux :P
riisen: so i dont wanna donate to something i maybee dont gonna use :P
FliPPeh: yolts awake
tkmorris: http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/steam_client_linux :(
meGenius: in fact, i don't think we should donate
meGenius: since Valve made it a reality for mac users
meGenius: we should get the same as any other operating system
meGenius: it's what Valve says
meGenius: loves VALVE
giselher: meGenius: But I want it NOW :(
christian_lappy: tkmorris: still forbidden ..same for weeks now
meGenius: christian_lappy: it maight be something really good or really bad
meGenius: it might means that they stopped the development
meGenius: or, it might means that they are working hard, thus, they don't want anyone to know
Nevtus: wouldn't they have removed it then?
meGenius: you don't know what they are doing
meGenius: may be it's just a trick
meGenius: Valve is really good in tricky things :P
Nevtus: yeah but 403 sounds like it's still there
meGenius: i know
christian_lappy: 404 would be ugly
Nevtus: 404 would tell Linux users to shutup asking them about it without having to publically say it wasn't happening. 403 gives hope
meGenius: i hope they announce it soon
christian_lappy: +1 :-)
Nevtus: e3. maaaaaaaaaybe
christian_lappy: -1 :-(
meGenius: i thought it's e8
Nevtus: I'm surprised apple said nothing about Steam on Mac at that conference. I guess the theories that Valve were holding off annoucing the Linux client for apple were wrong. Apple couldn't care less about Steam
christian_lappy: looks like
meGenius: Nevtus: apple deeds are unexpectable
FliPPeh: Apple is a behemoth of a company
FliPPeh: They've lost all of their "underdog sympathy" I've had for them
skyhirider: apple has higher market value asa company than microsoft, righ?
meGenius: skyhirider: what does that mean?? nothing
skyhirider: means nothing, just interesting numbers to bear
FliPPeh: Yes, apple was worth $222,000,000,000 about 2 weeks ago
FliPPeh: Microsoft was $221,000,000,000 that time
FliPPeh: Was all over the news here
FliPPeh: Wait.. was it $222 Billion or $111 Billion?
FliPPeh: I don't remember
FliPPeh: But it was an amount I'd like on my bank account
skyhirider: less users, more $$, they are either doing something righ or there are too many cheapscakes on win
skyhirider: meh, too cheap for me, add a few more zeroes :D
FliPPeh: Less users, but those who use it spend everything they ever own on apple stuff
FliPPeh: I know some of those kind
FliPPeh: It's ridiculous
skyhirider: heh, new iphone, must have lololol
FliPPeh: $1000 without contract
FliPPeh: Have fun
skyhirider: yeah, its a killer, dont even need those features
FliPPeh: How do they justify those prices?
FliPPeh: Can't be quality
skyhirider: chinese workers are picy
FliPPeh: "Designed in California" "Assembled in China"
skyhirider: take about a dollar a week, darn them hungry bastards!
FliPPeh: I thought "spicy"
FliPPeh: Hey, the employees at Foxconn now make 20% more because of that suicide strain
skyhirider: well, could be too but didnt taste em, cant say
skyhirider: what strain?
FliPPeh: There was about 5 suicides last month
FliPPeh: And some this week
skyhirider: didnt know
FliPPeh: Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, ...
FliPPeh: 2000 Yuan a month
FliPPeh: Dunno what that means
FliPPeh: But it's about $100 in american terms
skyhirider: wait, suicides in china?
skyhirider: or us?
skyhirider: ahh, terrible work conditions there i hear
FliPPeh: No talking
skyhirider: hah, we have a few korean companies here and they apply those same rules even thou it is illegal, the workers are afraid to speak
skyhirider: just heard a story that an engineer was hit because he didnt have his uniform the way he should have and he just let them
FliPPeh: Some always have to suffer...
FliPPeh: That's why I get my color changing LED balls for $4.99 each!
FliPPeh: About 3 EUR!
skyhirider: but when its illegal they shouldnt, if we let them we might as well become chinese ourselves
FliPPeh: (I ordered 5 :x)
skyhirider: ahh, never enough led balls
FliPPeh: So true
skyhirider: but sadly same goes with everything including food, the livestock is treated horribly (horrible being a weak word for it), that food cant be healthy in the long run
skyhirider: so, think they will just announce tf2 mac or go engie update?
MatthiasVance: tf2 for mac is already announced
MatthiasVance: Oh, he left.
FliPPeh: djura-san: HELLOOOO!
djura-san: hai FliPPeh
FliPPeh: OH HELLO THERE
mastertheknife: The steam servers are currently too busy to handle your request
djura-san: wait i turned on my newsbeuter. we shall see the news from phoronix =)
mastertheknife: yah.. they released tf2 some time ago and now the servers are overloaded and no one can launch tf2
mastertheknife: tf2 for mac*
FliPPeh: Got 180 reputation for one answer on stackoverflow today
mastertheknife: wow thats a lot :)
FliPPeh: It was a simple one, even
FliPPeh: 190 now
FliPPeh: 1 more and I've hit the reputation limit for today
mastertheknife: which one is you?
FliPPeh: The one on the top
mastertheknife: oh nice
mastertheknife: whats the point of r *= i;
FliPPeh: r = r * i
FliPPeh: It calculates the faculty
mastertheknife: oh i missed that
mastertheknife: wow this tf2 update was really big
mastertheknife: the menu has changed
FliPPeh: New update for TF2?
FliPPeh: What changed?
Zerb_Riss: lots of stuff
FliPPeh: "Who died?" "Someone"
FliPPeh: "*" "42"
FliPPeh: kurros: HOLY HEART FAILURE, BATMAN!
FliPPeh: I like it how irssi notifies me of daychange
FliPPeh: I would forget if it weren't for that
Zerb_Riss: yeah no joke
Zerb_Riss: hint: steam
kurros: boils and then condenses
FliPPeh: "Shadow Cross is now playing Steam Client"
FliPPeh: Just what the hell.
Zerb_Riss: is it a non steam game? lol
skyhirider: hmm, any way to make wine look like mac for steam?
bluekoala: Solution B: Install hackintosh
FliPPeh: Reprogram it and call it "mine"
FliPPeh: or "iWine"
FliPPeh: Yes, I'd go with iWine
FliPPeh: goes to vomit
Zerb_Riss: I wish Hackintosh worked in VirtualBox
bluekoala: No, iWine would have to be unconfigurable, have only 1 button, be proprietary and have a 300$ premium
FliPPeh: You forgot the brushed metal
Zerb_Riss: no just $34.99
skyhirider: well, i jave 3 days to make it work :D
FliPPeh: And no support for smokers
bluekoala: And requires iTunes and quicktime to run
skyhirider: hmm, virtual box could run the stuff right?
Zerb_Riss: if iTunes updates you have to reboot
bluekoala: Looks like I missed a lot of Linux roasting these last few days
bluekoala: I was busy with my new phone
bluekoala: Motorolla Milestone
bluekoala: I have to say it's quite an upgrade, worlds apart, from my BB storm
Zerb_Riss: what is better about it than the nexus one?
bluekoala: Whoever stole my BB can keep it, it's a POS
FliPPeh: 200 reputation for a single answer!
FliPPeh: I am a GOD!
bluekoala: Zerb_Riss: Nothing, I would rather have a Nexus One
Zerb_Riss: the milestone basically looks like a droid
Zerb_Riss: so not that bad
bluekoala: Bute Milestone is the next best thing
bluekoala: Battery life is good
bluekoala: So long as you don't play games all day
bluekoala: Which I have learned on the first day
bluekoala: Beats the 90 minutes of gaming I got out of my BB
bluekoala: With shitty games at that
bluekoala: Oh and BB had about 30 hours of battery life using it conservatively
bluekoala: I haven't used Milestone conservatively yet so I don't know how long I can stretch it
bluekoala: Probably a good 72 hours at least
bluekoala: I just hated having to charge a phone I hardly used every day
bluekoala: And my voicemailbox being almost full all the time from the phone being dead in my pocket
bluekoala: I wonder if there's an IRC app?
bluekoala: bash.org app
bluekoala: Installed :D
bluekoala: Too bad I don't understand german
bluekoala: I have to disable half the sources :(
FliPPeh: I do understand geramn
FliPPeh: I am german!
GNU\colossus: Wurst und Bier, bitte!!
kurros: bluekoala, ConnectBot and irssi ;)
FliPPeh: Ich möchte diesen Teppich nicht kaufen. Bitte.
GNU\colossus: Mein Luftkissenboot ist voller Aale.
bluekoala: They have irssi for droind?
Kano_berlin: hi GNU\colossus, bist in b?
kurros: connectbot is an ssh client
GNU\colossus: Kano_berlin: nur ganz selten, und nicht jetzt ;)
FliPPeh: Oder /b/?
GNU\colossus: ich nehme mal an er meint Berlin
bluekoala: We have irssi on our VPS
bluekoala: I see where you're going with this
FliPPeh: Kann man doch ausschreiben.
GNU\colossus: von /b/ habe ich noch NIE etwas gehoert, und ich distanziere mich auch gleich davon, rein prophylaktisch
FliPPeh: Dreckige Lügen
bluekoal1: we have success!
bluekoal1: tini keyboard w tiny text on tiny computer
bluekoala: 15 years ago I would have never thought I would own a phone that did as much as my 386 did
FliPPeh: Less is more.
FliPPeh: 15 years ago I didn't think much...
bluekoala: And if I went to the past now and told myself that, I'd be called a bullshitter
FliPPeh: Probably about destroying stuff
bluekoala: By myself
bluekoala: I know
bluekoala: I should build a time machine
bluekoala: And bring my phone out there
bluekoala: And show it to nerds
bluekoala: And then tell them about the internet
FliPPeh: I think they would be more surprised by that time machine, no?
bluekoala: Having a data center in your pocket is quite impressive
FliPPeh: I'm more fascinated about memory cards
bluekoala: Time travelling has been talked about for centuries
FliPPeh: 16 GB of storage on such small space
FliPPeh: And more!
bluekoala: My micros SD hold 16GBs
FliPPeh: That's scary.
bluekoala: How much did a Data centre hold in the 60's?
FliPPeh: Maybe. I wasn't alive back then
bluekoala: I'll see if google knows
FliPPeh: Oh well
FliPPeh: nap time
ryan22: im considering starting an old fashioned protest later this month
ryan22: "All digital locks should be based on open source technology. Society should hold the keys to our media."
ryan22: ill proably give out t-shirts with: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
ryan22: aka the aacs encryption key
AstralStorm: ryan22: you mean like openssl and gnutls?
AstralStorm: they are already
AstralStorm: and if you mean RFID, that's an open standard
AstralStorm: X.509 is an open standard too
ryan22: itunes isnt
AstralStorm: itunes isn't a digital lock
ryan22: fairplay is
AstralStorm: and their DRM is trivial
AstralStorm: it uses open algorithms
AstralStorm: it's a standard X.509 public/private cryptosystem
ryan22: ya maybe i should edit it to be
AstralStorm: just read the docs on it
ryan22: All digital locks should be open source technology. Society should hold the keys to our media.
AstralStorm: that doesn't make it any less evil of course
AstralStorm: define "society"
ryan22: the people
ryan22: the general population
bluekoala: Hmmm, backing out of the ssh app kills it apprently
AstralStorm: there's no such thing
AstralStorm: if you give the key to everyone it ceases to be a DRM
ryan22: i mean it should be bsd/gpl license
AstralStorm: FairPlay is
AstralStorm: it's not actually patented
ryan22: All digital locks should be based on open source technology. Society should hold the keys to our media.
AstralStorm: good principle, BUT
AstralStorm: there's no such thing as general public in a DRM
AstralStorm: it serves to protect the rights of the licensors
AstralStorm: (note: not authors)
bluekoala: There you go
bluekoala: Licensors are the problem
ryan22: AstralStrom: http://infinityos.net/node/47
ryan22: it was published in my newspaper today
bluekoala: I think technology is evolved enough to not have to require a pyramid scheme to get your product out there
ryan22: it does help
AstralStorm: bluekoala: that's what the licensors fear
AstralStorm: they're parasiteas
AstralStorm: only provide some minor service
bluekoala: And they sit on a big pile of legality and sue people for profit they didn't make otherwise
AstralStorm: that too
AstralStorm: they also tend to do the marketing and actual production
ryan22: made it more spefic
ryan22: "All digital locks should be free and open technology. The people should hold the keys to our media."
AstralStorm: but this can be done profitably without lock-in
AstralStorm: ryan22: it's contrary to the idea of DRM
ryan22: thats the point
AstralStorm: might as well just toss the lock
bluekoala: Marketting should be done by a network of local bidders
AstralStorm: bluekoala: might be, might be done by some company as well
AstralStorm: no problem there
AstralStorm: the problem is licencing, "intellectual property"
bluekoala: The system is not falling apart, it's evolving; let the destruction of the current establishment be something to embrace, not to fear
AstralStorm: the whole trick is that the people who really like it and can afford it will buy anyway
AstralStorm: bluekoala: the establishment fears decentralization
AstralStorm: they fail to adapt
bluekoala: 6 sigma hates decentralization
bluekoala: It's the devil I tell ye
AstralStorm: 6s is not the only methodology and you definitely have no experience with it
AstralStorm: it's totally unrelated to centralization
bluekoala: I see it as making a giant bucket of buckets
AstralStorm: it's not
bluekoala: Isn't it a manufacturing process?
AstralStorm: it's a quality control process
AstralStorm: that involves manufacturing too
AstralStorm: but it's irrelevant to licencing
AstralStorm: and is done fairly distributed already
AstralStorm: (each larger company is decentralized anyway)
bluekoala: The problem I think it may have with it is everything measured is only related to money
bluekoala: Kinda takes the humanity away from it
AstralStorm: without money you'd barter for housing with cows
bluekoala: I'd be happy with a cow, if I could use it
ryan22: basically i want netpgp to destory DRM, by becoming it
AstralStorm: it has nothing to do with humanity
AstralStorm: ryan22: wth is netpgp
ryan22: bsd licensed pgp tool
bluekoala: Maybe I don't understand it at all
AstralStorm: why would an artist need to sign or encrypt
ryan22: so others cant publish
AstralStorm: I know they might want to and sell keys, why not
bluekoala: The word is to be told, not to be sold :P
AstralStorm: ryan22: which is good how?
ryan22: Ownership is granted to the artist. Access and use is granted to the user, unless the work is placed under copyleft or under public domain. It has never been the inherent right of the user to copy and republish the work of the artist without explicit permission.
AstralStorm: bluekoala: you must've never bought information
ryan22: I have chosen to release my work under the GPL, but I still believe copyleft is something that should always be chosen, never forced (unless it is a derivative work).
AstralStorm: ryan22: you cannot do access without copy
ryan22: so they can copy the contant all they want
AstralStorm: in some way, a copy will be always possible
bluekoala: AstralStorm: You may be right about that; I've shared a lot though
ryan22: they just cant republish it
AstralStorm: ryan22: you can't do that anyway
AstralStorm: because of copyright law
AstralStorm: the artist owns the copyright on the work
ryan22: this is just an extention of copyright in the digital realm
ryan22: no more, no less
AstralStorm: it has no worth.
ryan22: did you read my letter?
AstralStorm: it's the same DRM
AstralStorm: just not centralized.
AstralStorm: it requires harsh technical measures to enforce
AstralStorm: and there will always be a hole
Modplan: Copyright grants the ability to control distribution to a work, not outright control
AstralStorm: Modplan: true.
AstralStorm: and DRM is all about controlling distribution
AstralStorm: isn't it
Modplan: which isn't needed
ryan22: The means of use and access to media and technology should be free and open. The plumbing should be free, as having the plumbing free benefits every one. But the media and technology itself? That should be up to the creator.
Modplan: copyright is only granted so long as it promotes the sciences and arts
AstralStorm: it's to enforce copyright by technical measures (fallible anyway)
AstralStorm: Modplan: no
Modplan: Astal, yes
AstralStorm: you're mistaking copyright with patents
Modplan: it is explicitly stated
ryan22: Companies and people need property rights to trade and barter. Sometimes they need to co-operate to create landmarks like the PATH system in downtown Toronto. Sometimes sharing promotes competition, like how each bank in the PATH has it's own *theme* and each tries to out do each other in extravagances. But you need to own *something* to be able to *share* it.
AstralStorm: those are unrelated
Modplan: copyright is granted t promote the progress and scienes
Modplan: it is explicitly stated so
ryan22: they are both property rights
Modplan: no, they're not
AstralStorm: Modplan: NO. it's 1) not granted, inherent 2) it's meant to allow rightful pay for the work
AstralStorm: PATENTS are granted.
Modplan: Astral, read the law
AstralStorm: I did.
Modplan: it's granted, not inherent
AstralStorm: you didn't.
bluekoala: AstralStorm: The word "rightful" isn't exactly a precise one
AstralStorm: NO, it is inherent in the US, Asia, EU and all countries recognizing Free Trade Act
Modplan: NO IT ISN'T
AstralStorm: it belongs to the author
AstralStorm: Modplan: prove me wrong, quotations.
Modplan: please stop pretending you're right
AstralStorm: I AM.
AstralStorm: I'm not pretending at all.
AstralStorm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright - read that
AstralStorm: for starters
AstralStorm: then take a course in trade law.
Modplan: ffs, now I have to quit mah game because someone doesn't understand copyright law
bluekoala: I think you both have different understandings of it
AstralStorm: this makes copyright inherent.
Modplan: Copyright law is granted, it is base on the assumption of economic inequality between a distributor and artist who could be taken advantage of
ryan22: If I am not entitled to ownership of my work (and indirectly payment), there is no economic incentive for me to produce it. I may chose to give away my republication and usage rights through various means. But in the end that is my choice.
AstralStorm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_and_Artistic_Works - this before.
Modplan: ryan22, yes there is
Modplan: plenty of economic incentive
AstralStorm: Modplan: how
ryan22: The idea that compensation promotes innovation is the fundamental basis of capitalism.
AstralStorm: non-economic if someone can steal it
AstralStorm: you're mistaking work (aka "intellectual property") with physical
AstralStorm: compete with non-free dummy
bluekoala: AstralStorm: Please definine "stealing" "intellectual property"
AstralStorm: with someone ripping you off
AstralStorm: bluekoala: copying your work
AstralStorm: when not granted the right
AstralStorm: possibly with monetary compensation
AstralStorm: Modplan: both are irrelevant
Modplan: no, they're not
AstralStorm: oh yes
mjr: I see the copyright lobby fud is well-rooted here.
Modplan: ryan22 claimed withotui copyright there is no incentive
ryan22: there isnt
AstralStorm: mjr: no, I do believe they are too long
Modplan: those links explains basic economics
AstralStorm: and they should be more limited
AstralStorm: Modplan: ...
Modplan: it is a blog run by somoene qualified at a top school top of his class from economics
bluekoala: I think copyright on intellectual property is BS; but google came out of it so it can't be ALL THAT bad
mjr: ryan22 lives in Wonderland
AstralStorm: you invested your time, funds, people, resources in general to create the work
ryan22: why should i create something if i can not guarantee my benefit from it
AstralStorm: then someone takes the work, copies it and earns money
AstralStorm: does it sound right to you?
mjr: ryan22, you can't do that even now, so by all means don't
AstralStorm: (if you didn't meant that to happen)
mjr: we don't need your input as such
AstralStorm: Modplan: those aren't laws.
bluekoala: ryan22: Not everyone thinks like that; but in this man made world, you're forced to
AstralStorm: I asked for a quotation. I gave you the specific acts that prove you wrong
AstralStorm: I've explained what copyright is good for
AstralStorm: and why it's perverse right now
AstralStorm: (because it's too long and too broad)
Modplan: You've stated half truths and complete nonsense
ryan22: I love the GPL and copyleft as it promotes code reuse and innovation, as it allows you to base your work on the work of others so you don't have to start from scratch.
AstralStorm: complete truth, with law
AstralStorm: ryan22: yes, thay are good
Modplan: Copyright is granted, no inherent,
ryan22: However, I don't believe the end has to be free, only the means.
AstralStorm: Modplan: by law that says each work has an inherent copyright
Modplan: It is a monopoly priviledge granted toa rtists
AstralStorm: Modplan: let's chew on this
ryan22: The means of use and access to media and technology should be free and open. The plumbing should be free, as having the plumbing free benefits every one. But the media and technology itself? That should be up to the creator.
AstralStorm: yes, this law could be reversed
AstralStorm: but right now the copyright is inherent
AstralStorm: ryan22: GPL of course depends on copyright law for enforcement
AstralStorm: ryan22: they can't be free, they cost physical resources
ryan22: it is a restriction granted by copyright
bluekoala: I want to hear why copyright is so perverse anyway; besides, it'll get everyone bashing copyright rather than each other
AstralStorm: some way or another, someone is paying for them
AstralStorm: bluekoala: it is overlong... 50 years for a work? please...
ryan22: but the plumbing should be as it allows for perfect competition
AstralStorm: not in the current times
bluekoala: AstralStorm: I agree with you 100%
AstralStorm: ryan22: there's no such thing
ryan22: there is
AstralStorm: ryan22: you're living in a dreamworld
mjr: ryan22, talking about perfect competition while arguing for government-granted monopolies is perverse
ryan22: its called open source software
AstralStorm: there's no perfect anything
bluekoala: Wasn't it 12 years before disney bought congress?
AstralStorm: except mathematical models
AstralStorm: bluekoala: probably
ryan22: tell me how isnt open source software perfect competition
AstralStorm: that's a weakness of any law
ryan22: serious thats what my thesis is on
AstralStorm: ryan22: if you don't know of an opensource app, you'll buy the closed equivalent
AstralStorm: ryan22: thus, it doesn't compete perfectly
ryan22: thats not the same market
AstralStorm: for the same app same usecase
ryan22: the open source market
AstralStorm: there's no market if you're not paying
AstralStorm: there's only cooperation
ryan22: how is that subset not a perfectly competitive market
AstralStorm: even if it looks like a competition
ryan22: oh its competition
AstralStorm: yeah, competing for what?
AstralStorm: like, for money? not. for users? not really
AstralStorm: mindshare, maybe
AstralStorm: but that's irrelevant
Modplan: this assumes open source software isn't a business
ryan22: for superiority and use
AstralStorm: Modplan: it rarely is, but yes, it can be a business
AstralStorm: ryan22: naaah.
bluekoala: AstralStorm: Competing for users and excellence :P
AstralStorm: not competing that often actually
AstralStorm: they solve differing requirements
AstralStorm: sometimes similar
ryan22: How Red Hat Software Stumbled Across a New Economic Model and Helped Improve an Industry
AstralStorm: usually different enough to attract different users
AstralStorm: that's why we have 127 different IM apps
AstralStorm: for example
ryan22: perfect competition
AstralStorm: you're misunderstanding what "perfect competition" means
AstralStorm: read the definition.
mjr: yeah, it's quite a theoretical construct
ryan22: you dont sell open source software
bluekoala: You guys are arguing about shit that doesn't even exist
AstralStorm: you can.
AstralStorm: or sell service tied it
AstralStorm: *to it
AstralStorm: that's a market.
AstralStorm: not perfect market by any stretch of that
mjr: concludes that ryan22 is quite delusional, and proceeds to bed
bluekoala: ryan22: Are you left handed?\
ryan22: Open source software is a perfectly competitive market and should be treated like one. The software should be costless to replicate and near costless to produce due to perfect information. This allows you to make more money from uniquely packaging it and bundling it with comprehensive solutions.
bluekoala: Just curious
AstralStorm: bluekoala: I am, actually ;p
AstralStorm: ryan22: it's not. it has real costs and barriers of entry
AstralStorm: mostly skill-based and media-based
ryan22: Software is an operating cost when selling products and solutions that use open source software. Cut your operating cost to raise the profit you make from your products.
AstralStorm: ryan22: again
AstralStorm: there's only so far you can take this
AstralStorm: developing software takes time
AstralStorm: programmers have to eat
ryan22: what skill based. i can go out right now and hire 20 people off of the debian mailing list
AstralStorm: no, you can't
ryan22: start a company
AstralStorm: you have to convince them, that takes skill
bluekoala: I just thought of a new software business model (That probably wouldn't work)
AstralStorm: and you have to find 20 useful programmers
AstralStorm: suited to the task
ryan22: its what canonical and the spaceman did
AstralStorm: they had tons of cash funneled into HR
bluekoala: Develop software, have auction to have it released open source
AstralStorm: compare apples to oranges, is what you do, ryan22
bluekoala: Sort of how the game bundle worked
ryan22: well this is my thesis
AstralStorm: bluekoala: that's a sane model, or just do it indie and sell cheap
AstralStorm: develop easy tools
AstralStorm: to lower costs
AstralStorm: can't remove them totally though
ryan22: like gnupro
AstralStorm: you can attract some... let's call them enthusiasts
AstralStorm: but they incur the costs anyway
AstralStorm: you're just not seeing them directly
bluekoala: AstralStorm: You need more money than indie to create something "first tier"
AstralStorm: bluekoala: that used to be true
AstralStorm: soon won't be
AstralStorm: games on WoW level are easy enough to make
bluekoala: AstralStorm: I see where you're going with this. I hope you're right.
AstralStorm: (but not to run, hehe)
AstralStorm: ryan22: don't try to sell me someone's vision
AstralStorm: I'll believe it when I see it work.
AstralStorm: opensource works not because of lack of costs
AstralStorm: but other gains
ryan22: there 15 visions
AstralStorm: at least.
AstralStorm: there are barriers to sharing btw too
AstralStorm: mostly technical, say, differing APIs, languages
ryan22: "Ryan Oram
ryan22: Socialism is not a replacement for capitalism. It is something that binds capitalism and keeps it in check. It is a way of encouraging people and companies to co-operate to produce innovations that never would have existed without working together."
AstralStorm: ryan22: that's totally irrelevant
AstralStorm: socialism is a loan system
ryan22: its what open source is
AstralStorm: someone is paying that anyway
AstralStorm: so-called collective
AstralStorm: the cost is spread, but not zero
ryan22: change socialism to open source in that paragraph, and it still makes sense
AstralStorm: not exactly
ryan22: but it does approach zero
AstralStorm: companies can cooperate even w/o OSS
AstralStorm: but yes, it *fosters* cooperation
AstralStorm: doesn't ensure it
ryan22: thats exactly what i said ;)
Modplan: just because a model may involve cooperation doesn't mean it's socialism
AstralStorm: you said it is a perfect competition
AstralStorm: not cooperation
RambJoe: any news?
AstralStorm: you're contradicting yourself
AstralStorm: Modplan: indeed it doesnt.
AstralStorm: Modplan: and that wasn't the point.
ryan22: i think that in order to reach perfect competition, competition must become one and the same as competition
AstralStorm: ryan22: cannot.
AstralStorm: read the dictionary.
ryan22: "Companies and people need property rights to trade and barter. Sometimes they need to co-operate to create landmarks like the PATH system in downtown Toronto. Sometimes sharing promotes competition, like how each bank in the PATH has it's own *theme* and each tries to out do each other in extravagances. But you need to own *something* to be able to *share* it."
ryan22: that's competitive cooperation
AstralStorm: blah blah irrelevant blah
AstralStorm: there's no such thing
AstralStorm: maybe next time you'll speak of "black light"
AstralStorm: or "free expense"
AstralStorm: you don't understand the words
AstralStorm: I'm done discussing with you.
ryan22: you only look at the words
AstralStorm: you're spewing irrelevant quotes
AstralStorm: of things everyone knows about anyway
ryan22: they are completely revelant
AstralStorm: that don't back what you say at all
AstralStorm: yeah, tell me how.
ryan22: ya they do
AstralStorm: how is that "competitive cooperation" if there's such a thing at all
ryan22: The Origins of Linux - Linus Torvalds
ryan22: linus says excatly what im saying
AstralStorm: Linus is not an economist
AstralStorm: and has been shown to have been wrong many times as well
ryan22: are you?
AstralStorm: no, I've at least studied some law
AstralStorm: unlike Torvalds :>
ryan22: i am
ryan22: well at least in training
ryan22: 3 rd year econ major
AstralStorm: see, you should then read some more Marx work
ryan22: eh communism is a bunch horse crap
AstralStorm: this guy had some good ideas (but those were twisted and misunderstood later)
ryan22: im a social libertarian
AstralStorm: Marxism != communism.
AstralStorm: you'd welcome it actually ;p
ryan22: Social libertarianism is pretty much a belief in the potential of the free market system, however, with a view that the free market must be regulated with a dose of socialism. It states that the job of the government is to ensure liberties, through providing services and regulations. A social libertarian believes that both the government AND corporations must be keep in check to preserve lasting equality in our society.
AstralStorm: I know what that means
ryan22: not many do
ryan22: i think bioth communism and libertianism are fairy tales
AstralStorm: social one too
AstralStorm: because the companies and people will act in their best interest
AstralStorm: *their own*
ryan22: and in order to be useful, they must be combined and alagumated
AstralStorm: governments as well
AstralStorm: and thus laws
AstralStorm: they're imperfect by definition
AstralStorm: the problem is also... how powerful can a single government control a multinational corporation?
AstralStorm: not that well
ryan22: a social libertarian believes in decentralization
AstralStorm: there is too much difference in wealth
AstralStorm: yeah, belief and reality
ryan22: so these pwoers don;t overwhelm
AstralStorm: they will
AstralStorm: cartel > you
ryan22: so we fix
AstralStorm: cartel is technically decentralized
AstralStorm: yet acts as one entity
AstralStorm: try making OPEC more social
AstralStorm: see, the whole problem is that centralization is more efficient
AstralStorm: thus brings more wealth
AstralStorm: (maybe less net systemic wealth, but since when did that stopped anyone?)
ryan22: you decentralize pwoer but centralize the work
AstralStorm: how do you decentralize power?
ryan22: give everyone access to it
AstralStorm: voting? doesn't work (ask politicians)
AstralStorm: that's not enough
ryan22: break up monopolies
ryan22: again and again
AstralStorm: you're smaller than them
AstralStorm: try to compete with this kind of wealth
ryan22: theres always a david
AstralStorm: yes, but usually it's not the government
AstralStorm: see how EU has stopped Microsoft... NOT
ryan22: that gets the government
AstralStorm: only been a minor nuisance
ryan22: but it has at least neutered them
AstralStorm: not at all
AstralStorm: they're still a very wealthy company
AstralStorm: they've never actually been a monopoly
AstralStorm: just the main player
ryan22: they cant do this: http://blog.admob.com/2010/06/09/mobile-advertising-and-the-iphone/
AstralStorm: they'll change this law or at least attempt to
ryan22: apple is much more of a threat than microsoft
AstralStorm: if a cartel of monopolists acts...
Azalyn: centralization is more efficient? :|
Azalyn: in what context?
AstralStorm: Azalyn: usually in that it tends to limit communication overhead
ryan22: get with the times
AstralStorm: but it is more brittle
AstralStorm: ryan22: so?
ryan22: ms is so 2000
Azalyn: in practically every other market, you can choose any vendor you want, and those markets work far better.
AstralStorm: replaced one major player with another? irrelevant
AstralStorm: neither is a monopoly
Modplan: "infected by these spams and scams that come through the portal"
AstralStorm: there's not even a duopoly
Azalyn: like think of construction or whatever. building materials are all pretty much standard
AstralStorm: Azalyn: better for whom?
AstralStorm: Azalyn: not the companies' profits
ryan22: lol yes Australia just had its "series of tubes moment"
Azalyn: better for the consumer.
AstralStorm: Azalyn: that's true and... irrelevant.
ryan22: OMG the PORTAL!
Azalyn: AstralStorm: which is why i asked what context... you're talking about the company's side? isn't that kind of stupid? i mean of course it's to the company's benefit to be a monopoly.
Azalyn: i don't think anyone disputed that...
AstralStorm: Azalyn: yep, I was talking what you'll do to stop the monopoly
AstralStorm: what can a single government do
AstralStorm: not much really
Modplan: Roll the die and hope they get a go to jail card
AstralStorm: not even one as large as EU
AstralStorm: or US
Azalyn: did someone suggest that government action was needed? i came in late to the discussion..
AstralStorm: ryan22: and that's relevant how?
AstralStorm: Azalyn: social libertarianism is on the table ;)
ryan22: it shows what we lose with a monopoly
AstralStorm: ryan22: yes, *systemic* efficiency
AstralStorm: which is not related to company efficiency
Azalyn: i would agree that government action isn't the right approach, although to suggest it was futile wouldn't be totally inaccurate either though... companies *have* been split into pieces before... like at&t.
ryan22: well that is what social libertarians believe in
AstralStorm: Azalyn: AT&T still acts as one entity
AstralStorm: and a fairly successful for the moment
Azalyn: sure, but they have competition. and pretty much everyone likes verizon better. :)
AstralStorm: the problem was always infrastructure
AstralStorm: it's an entry barrier
AstralStorm: that's why railroads, telephones have had monopolies
Azalyn: so who here is arguing for libertarianism, and who against?
AstralStorm: Azalyn: I'm pointing out the flaws in it
ryan22: im a social libertarian
ryan22: so eh
AstralStorm: no system is perfect obviously
Modplan: You force the likes of AT&T to rent out their lines
ryan22: we dont believe wither
AstralStorm: Modplan: who forces?
Modplan: assuming one that is half decent
AstralStorm: government? in case of a multinational they might not have enough leverage
AstralStorm: esp. smaller countries
ryan22: they did with at&t
ryan22: and still do
AstralStorm: AT&T was not multinational really at the time
AstralStorm: they depended on US
Modplan: If you're talking about phone lines, then it's a problem to be solved by each local government
AstralStorm: that's why it worked
AstralStorm: Modplan: yes, it is.
AstralStorm: a difficult one in case where you're poor
Azalyn: well, i think the key one has to ask here, is do you think we should have copyrights and patents? i've met some libertarians who supported views that sounded pretty much anarcho-capitalist. and copyright/patents are government institutions, they are systems where you get the government involved a lot in your own business.
Azalyn: so if you're an advocate of minimal government, where do you stand on copyright and patents?
AstralStorm: Azalyn: indeed, it is fun
AstralStorm: they tend to contradict themselves there
AstralStorm: like ryan22 here ;p
ryan22: Intellectual property should enable innovation instead of promoting empty entitlement. This means limiting the scope of patents to not include inventions of pure knowledge (such as mathematic algorithms, DNA, and computer programs) and limiting the duration of copyright to a reasonable timeframe such as 20 years after publication.
AstralStorm: ryan22: slogans!
AstralStorm: how do you do it?
AstralStorm: what's "pure knowledge"?
AstralStorm: is a process IP?
AstralStorm: is a chemical substance?
AstralStorm: where do you draw the line?
Azalyn: the way i see it, if you don't have copyrights and patents, then in theory we can pretty much destroy microsoft overnight. but if you have those things, then you're not really promoting minimal government. that's one of the reasons modern capitalism has mutated. the capitalists have realized that 'pure capitalism' would totally fuck them in the ass. :)
ryan22: nutral laws
ryan22: *natural laws
AstralStorm: Azalyn: actually, copyright is a contract
AstralStorm: you could disobey it if not enforced
ryan22: mathematical algorithms are a natural law, so is dna
AstralStorm: same with patents
AstralStorm: ryan22: what makes you see them as such?
Azalyn: well, my point is that you rely on the government to enforce the laws..
AstralStorm: they did require investments of money and time to discover
ryan22: such they aren't actually creating everything
AstralStorm: making these "free" could make progress slower
AstralStorm: is a process "creating anything"?
ryan22: they are just describtion
AstralStorm: say, I want to patent 6sigma
ryan22: not really
AstralStorm: (it is patented, but w/e, let it serve as an example)
AstralStorm: yet it took a lot of money to devise it
ryan22: i think patents should be limited to physical innovations
AstralStorm: you're denying me the profits
AstralStorm: DNA is physical
AstralStorm: again failure.
ryan22: but its still a code
AstralStorm: it's a chemical substance
ryan22: its physical nothing new
AstralStorm: a polymer
ryan22: that is a code
ryan22: a code
ryan22: a code
AstralStorm: DNA = DeoxyriboNucleic Acid
AstralStorm: (or such()
AstralStorm: a chemical substance, a specific polymer.
ryan22: it even has start and stop codes
AstralStorm: that's what they're "called"
AstralStorm: they're not codes, they're physical particles.
ryan22: that what they "are"
AstralStorm: they are a sequence of nucleotides
Modplan: The limit of patents is generally drawn at facts. Things that form basic principles of the universe that would do more harm than good to lock to certain individuals or groups, and are more valuable to society to keep open
ryan22: just a code on how to crate protiens
AstralStorm: not some kind of abstract code
AstralStorm: so, you've failed to convince me
ryan22: dna is a how-to code on how to make protiens
Azalyn: the patent doesn't cover the computer representation of dna. it covers the actual physical dna itself.
AstralStorm: Modplan: true.
ryan22: take 12th grade bio
AstralStorm: it's case-by-case
AstralStorm: ryan22: ...
AstralStorm: ryan22: DNA can replicate on its own btw
ryan22: i had to memorize the code
AstralStorm: (in the right circumstances)
ryan22: and translate them to rna
AstralStorm: the "code" is different for quite a few organisms
AstralStorm: which one isn't DNA?
ryan22: and specificfy what porotien was made in some cases
AstralStorm: you have again failed to convince me
ryan22: it sa code
AstralStorm: some organisms translate "code" differently
AstralStorm: is it still DNA?
ryan22: if you have bio you would understand
AstralStorm: I DID. Know your facts.
Azalyn: the question should not be what patents should cover, and what they shouldn't, the question should be whether or not patents *can* be salvaged at all.
ryan22: well dna and rns still code
AstralStorm: Should I link you to bacteria?
AstralStorm: ryan22: I say they're polymers.
ryan22: The limit of patents is generally drawn at facts. Things that form basic principles of the universe that would do more harm than good to lock to certain individuals or groups, and are more valuable to society to keep open
AstralStorm: this one is polymer123
Azalyn: and whether we should just eliminate them entirely.
AstralStorm: and the other is polymer234
ryan22: thanks Modplan
AstralStorm: and this variant is polymer65535
ryan22: dna is how to instuction on how to make protiens, how is that not a code
ryan22: its interpreted
AstralStorm: again, it's not complete
ryan22: and ran
AstralStorm: it *might* be interpreted
AstralStorm: it doesn't have to.
ryan22: and used to make protiens
AstralStorm: siRNA aren't interpreted
AstralStorm: yet they're useful
AstralStorm: you fail at facts.
ryan22: you fail at understanding
AstralStorm: no, you're just not convincing.
Azalyn: rolls eyes at semantics argument
AstralStorm: what about advanced RNA oligos?
AstralStorm: are those patentable?
AstralStorm: they're still RNA
AstralStorm: patents say they are
ryan22: if its code, not patentable
AstralStorm: because they're not naturally derived
AstralStorm: you fail.
ryan22: you fail
AstralStorm: no, really
AstralStorm: do you want a link?
ryan22: i disargee with the legal interpretation then
AstralStorm: your right
ryan22: it i
AstralStorm: but I asked you where to draw the line
ryan22: is it code?
ryan22: thats my line
AstralStorm: so is a series of atoms
ryan22: not really
AstralStorm: if you look at it from physics point of view
AstralStorm: C2H5OH drink some
AstralStorm: it is a code.
ryan22: they arent a separte entity used to create another
AstralStorm: yes they are
AstralStorm: a physical representation of it
AstralStorm: using a process
AstralStorm: certain temperature, pressure, catalysts...
Modplan: did ATI announce it was entering bio research?
ryan22: my line is mathematic algorithms, DNA/RNA, and computer programs
AstralStorm: Modplan: ATI? you mean AMD? haven't heard
djura-san: im off. night :))
AstralStorm: ryan22: so I'll patent proteins instead
AstralStorm: ryan22: and youv'e still failed.
Modplan: my attempt at humour failed :(
ryan22: go ahead
AstralStorm: because you won't be able to use your unpatented DNA
ryan22: my line is till there
AstralStorm: because the result is patented
ryan22: i dont disargee with that
AstralStorm: so what use is it then?
AstralStorm: the lack of patent there
ryan22: patents cover the end not the means
AstralStorm: chemical process is means
Azalyn: ryan22: in many countries, like here in canada, math cannot be patented..
Azalyn: and yet, math gets patented anyways.
ryan22: and computer programs
AstralStorm: and those are patentable
ryan22: not here
Azalyn: because the math gets claimed along with some kind of storage device.
AstralStorm: ryan22: I mean chemical processes and other manufacturing processes
ryan22: ya thats a grey area
AstralStorm: yet they're not "things"
AstralStorm: they're means
Azalyn: which is done in europe as well.
ryan22: its a grey idea that must be decided on a cse by case basis
AstralStorm: which means "let's patent everything and wait for challenges"
AstralStorm: that's what case by case is
Azalyn: i think once you've submitted to "case by case" you have failed.
ryan22: you love arguing dont you?
AstralStorm: ryan22: much less than you love indoctrinating
ryan22: ya im not sure exactly how to go at that grey area, as it would depend on precedent
Azalyn: well, i don't know where AstralStorm is going, but personally, i just don't think patents have a place in modern society at all.
AstralStorm: Azalyn: well, they have the right idea, but crummy implementation
AstralStorm: and I'm not sure how to fix that
ryan22: i think they should be reformed inot a government grant system
ryan22: 5 years, coperations exempted
AstralStorm: so you say... strong governments?
AstralStorm: we all know how that historically turned out
ryan22: umm what
Azalyn: i disagree. you have to really prove that patents are beneficial in any form, or that they do more good than harm in any form. and no one has ever *proven* that beyond a doubt yet. no one. everyone simply relies on subjective theories like "oh, human NATURE totally wouldn't allow that.. people would never innovate if things could be ripped off like that"
AstralStorm: I thought to mention Nazis, but Godwin's law and all
AstralStorm: Azalyn: true, that's not been done
Azerthoth: there are 2 kinds of strong government, failed and failing
AstralStorm: because experiments are damn hard to conduct
ryan22: im not sure either
AstralStorm: and very easy to manipulate
AstralStorm: while theory is just that, it needs confirmation
AstralStorm: oh and the whole problem of an "open system"
AstralStorm: a lot of noise in there from other countries
Azalyn: and even if you approach this from a moral standpoint, you still have no clear cut answer, because what is going on today with patents would clearly indicate that patents are completely immoral.
ryan22: AstralStrom: perfection is paralysis
AstralStorm: Azalyn: or moral... they should allow compensation of the inventor
AstralStorm: that is supposedly their purpose, to enforce it
ryan22: there are no absolutes, only approximations
AstralStorm: another is to be a repository of the ideas, but that can be done without the other part
Azalyn: part of the idea with patents though, was that trade secrets used to be really harmful, and trade secrets were sort of the 'old way' of protecting your invention...
AstralStorm: without patents, it is thought that the companies would revert to trade secrets
Azalyn: but honestly, i think today we've come full circle.
AstralStorm: because that would benefit them
AstralStorm: Azalyn: maybe, maybe not
AstralStorm: at least patents can be sold
AstralStorm: more easily
Azalyn: reverse engineering technology today would allow you to reverse engineer someone else's technology completely. that just wasn't the case back when patents were introduced. they didn't have the methods we have today.
AstralStorm: there's always the cost of rev.eng.
AstralStorm: it might be fairly high anyway
AstralStorm: and by reverse engineering, some patents can be averted
AstralStorm: by finding loopholes
Azalyn: sure, but look at the early PC days, the IBM PC was almost completely reverse engineered, and so were a lot of the busses and interfaces. if i remember correctly, even IDE did not start out 'open' ... western digital made the interface, and others copied it i believe.
AstralStorm: while overly broad patents are fairly counterproductive and unlikely to be granted
Azalyn: and then once a few guys had done reverse engineering, they created groups like the ISA group
AstralStorm: Azalyn: yes.
Azalyn: and so on, to standardize the very things they reverse engineered. and they shared knowledge with members.
AstralStorm: yes, open standards.
AstralStorm: but those were made after they ceased to be interesting research avenues
Azalyn: so once one company does the work to reverse engineer, they can sell their work, or create an open group to share that knowledge, perhaps even profit from their reverse engineering work.
Azalyn: which offsets the cost of reverse engineering.
AstralStorm: so they can work around a patent
Azalyn: sure, this is all theoretical, but so is "patents are good". heh
AstralStorm: take a patent, design a workalike that averts it
AstralStorm: what I'm interested is in how to validate if patents are beneficial or not
AstralStorm: there are far too many incidental and codependent variables
AstralStorm: "just ignore them" won't work
Modplan: by things like this: http://techdirt.com/articles/20100602/0421159656.shtml
AstralStorm: because there are sanctions...
AstralStorm: let's see that article :)
AstralStorm: Modplan: that's abuse, yup
AstralStorm: but a similar non-patent case would be:
Azalyn: it's a challenge, looking at modern society, one could only conclude that they are always harmful. but then that would be a biased analysis, you'd have to instead see whether patents 'could' be beneficial if we had an ideal system.
AstralStorm: "A Thief produces 4,500 stolen Micron designs"
AstralStorm: Azalyn: not even then the conclusion is so clear
Azalyn: there is a bit of a chicken and egg issue here. *before* looking at whether patents are fixable, we should be asking ourselves "do we really need them?", but to ask ourselves that question, we need to ask "can patents be fixed?" ... hehe
AstralStorm: Azalyn: you'd have to quantify how they're harmful and how important is that effect
AstralStorm: not just say "they are"
AstralStorm: this isn't being done
AstralStorm: say, count the number of research projects aborted due to patent issues
AstralStorm: really hard to access data
AstralStorm: quantifying expenses on the patent market might help as well, but we've no baseline
AstralStorm: we've no rates for idea thievery
Azalyn: well, ultimately, it may raise more questions than answers.. like if you determine that not having patents is bad because inventors don't get income for their innovations. some will blame the lack of patents, but others may get more hardcore and blame capitalist theory in general, and say "the root of the problem is capitalism, because it places someone's success or failure almost entirely on financial status and class"
AstralStorm: Azalyn: blah blah.
AstralStorm: they have to back their idea
AstralStorm: backing the idea of "lack of income due to patents" is easier
AstralStorm: *due to lack of patents
AstralStorm: than checking the success based on status and class
AstralStorm: or rather, more appropriately, wealth
Azalyn: on the surface maybe... but i think both concepts are pretty complex. i would think that anyone educated would realize that communism, despite it's flaws, has *desirable characteristics*, as you pointed out earlier, there is some efficiency to centralization. but the problem is the corruption that results from such societies.
AstralStorm: Azalyn: there are degrees of complexity.
AstralStorm: Azalyn: corruption is quantifiable
Azalyn: idealy we would want a society that has the strengths of capitalism, and the strengths of communism/socialism, with none of it's downsides.
Azerthoth: Azalyn, communism requires string government, and as pointed out there are only 2 kinds of strong government
AstralStorm: hahaha, we don't know any of these
Azerthoth: failed and failing
AstralStorm: neither strengths nor weaknesses
AstralStorm: we have some funny ideas what those are
Azalyn: AstralStorm: true, but nothing worth doing is easy. :)
AstralStorm: Azerthoth: slogans!
AstralStorm: Azerthoth: back this up.
Azerthoth: and some things arent worth doing at any cost
AstralStorm: define "successful government"
AstralStorm: maybe like "successful management"
Azalyn: was yugoslavia failing or failed before the usa decided to bomb the hell out of them? :|
AstralStorm: Azalyn: is US failed or failing now?
Azalyn: also, looking at today's capitalist nations, someone could conclude that we are failing.
AstralStorm: or is it coping fairly well?
Azerthoth: Azalyn, failed prior, and US failing now
Azalyn: AstralStorm: damnit, you had the same idea. heh
AstralStorm: Great Britain?
Azalyn: yeah, it's all subjective.
AstralStorm: they have fairly long history of not failing though...
AstralStorm: all of these governments
AstralStorm: (unlike Russia)
AstralStorm: well, China as well actually
Azerthoth: but lets look at 'social helping' dragging greece, germany, italy, great britain, etc etc into the failed economy hole
AstralStorm: there was almost always some government there
AstralStorm: Azerthoth: so? while it helped in the US?
AstralStorm: where US is recovering?
Azerthoth: oh hell no
AstralStorm: oh it is recovering
Azalyn: so what about the opensource community? perhaps that is a hint as to how to build something better. assuming that system can *scale* of course.
AstralStorm: although we'll see if it is recovered fully and when
Azerthoth: no its failing, you can not borrow your way out of debt
AstralStorm: Azalyn: the difference is resources - someone has to pay
AstralStorm: Azerthoth: yes, someone loses in the end
AstralStorm: either the debtor or the loaner
Azalyn: AstralStorm: in a capitalist society, yeah...
Azerthoth: Azalyn, in ANY society
AstralStorm: in socialist too, but the loan is less visible
AstralStorm: more distributed
AstralStorm: which doesn't make it any better ;p
Azerthoth: if there is no need to work because all if provided, then there is no impetus to work, if there is no impetus to work then there is no impetus to produce, if nothing is produced then there is nothing that can be provided ... socialism == fail
AstralStorm: Azerthoth: also your asertion that "you can't borrow your way out of a hole" is not based in anything
AstralStorm: I can point out the examples where it was successful
AstralStorm: let's call the New Deal
Azalyn: not in any society really. money is an abstraction to deal with scarcity, but if we have an abundance of resources, then that isn't really necessary... for example, we know for a fact that there is enough manufacturing capacity in the world to make food to feed the whole planet, including all poor people. food *is* abundant *enough* to feed everyone, but we have artificial scarcity imposed in order to sustain corporate profits.
Modplan: erm, socialism does not automagically create a situation where no one needs anything ir nothing needs improving azerthoth
AstralStorm: Azerthoth: that's also an assertion, not based in fact
Azerthoth: AstralStorm, read more, the premise to the current borrow your way out of debt is based upon keynesian economics
AstralStorm: and we don't have abundance of resources and won't have if the population count holds
AstralStorm: even with improvements in utilization
Azerthoth: that you have no frame of reference does not preclude the existance
AstralStorm: Azerthoth: it precludes judgement
Azalyn: Azerthoth: people in the opensource community work even when they don't get anything out of it, so i wouldn't say that people will *only* work if nothing is provided for them.
AstralStorm: or rather, correct judgement
AstralStorm: Azalyn: they do get something
AstralStorm: Azalyn: externalities like "useful thing for me"
Azalyn: respect/etc from their peers?
AstralStorm: that too
Azalyn: sure, but the point is that people will do work without money. i believe 'money' is what Azerthoth was implying in his comment.
AstralStorm: Azalyn: only if it serves them
AstralStorm: in some way
AstralStorm: and they still get to eat
Modplan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc when monetary incentive makes us less productive
AstralStorm: Modplan: less slogans and examples
Azalyn: yeah, and i think there will always be people that have an interest in a field, and believe it serves them to do some work.
AstralStorm: more research
Modplan: Astral, watch the video
Modplan: that was the example
Azerthoth: Azalyn, you cant eat good intentions, even if the farmed has all the good intentions in the world, it wont feed a person of no one goes out and gets it
Azalyn: also, more and more fields are going to be simplified through IT. like advanced CAD design and so on.
AstralStorm: you can't know if it weren't caused by some external factor
Azalyn: Azerthoth: eh?
Azerthoth: one of the failings of the soviet union, lack of consumptive production
AstralStorm: Azerthoth: there was but it was mismanaged
AstralStorm: see: Great Famine
Azerthoth: it would be funny if it wasnt being replayed all over the world right now
AstralStorm: it wasn't
AstralStorm: and it isn't
AstralStorm: the circumstances and effects are different
AstralStorm: and nowhere near as drastic
Azerthoth: yes, your only 'a little pregnant'
AstralStorm: bad analogy is bad
AstralStorm: more like "more and less wealthy"
AstralStorm: or hungry, content, satiated, overfed
Azerthoth: ah your a redistributionist?
AstralStorm: I prefer research before jumping to conclusion
AstralStorm: there are costs to redistribution that should be measured
Azerthoth: yeah, like the fact in any other place than governement redistribution is called theft
Azerthoth: read bastiat, he pretty much nailed it
mastertheknife: if anyone is interested.. tf2 is free for the weekend on steam and is 50% off until monday
Modplan: Why would we be interested in that? Phoronix is all about economics and politics. Take your silly game talk somewhere else
mastertheknife: i'm still a kid inside xD
Modplan: Now I feel like a game of tag
AstralStorm: tags Modplan: you're it!
AstralStorm: No tagbacks!
Modplan: OH NOES *panics* *runs in circles*
Modplan: can't wait to see and play with the influx of new Mac TF2 platers
bluekoala: Mac TF2 players must be quite noobish
bluekoala: They play 1 handed, the other hand holding an expresso
AstralStorm: why an espresso?