christian_lappy: i bet we hear NOTHING on e3 about steam for linux
mikeplus64: I don't know who you're betting against.
christian_lappy: lol
christian_lappy: against my unrealisitc hopes ;-)
kurros: i bet someone is going to make me a cake
Ivanovic: kurros: if you manage to get through portal you will get a cake!
christian_lappy: lol
Ivanovic: no idea if linux users will get a cake, too...
Ivanovic: ;)
christian_lappy: i bet hl2 ep3
christian_lappy: is going to be announced
Ivanovic: that is the expected thing
christian_lappy: so a common guess
Ivanovic: jepp
mikeplus64: The surprise will be the lack of surprises.
mastertheknife: lol
kurros: i bet they are announcing Portal 2 is going to be Games For Windows - Live title and not available for Mac after all.
kurros: thats why the event was canceled :D
christian_lappy: no way
Ivanovic: ha, even better:
Ivanovic: they announce that they will drop directx support and go for opengl only!
Ivanovic: offering stuff like tesselation and the likes to winxp users, too!
christian_lappy: hehhe.balmer would throw chairs ;-)
Ivanovic: would be a neat move, though it would also include a "no more xbox360!" statement
christian_lappy: yup
Rednaxela: But a move to opengl does mean potential for PS3 port :P
kurros: the PS3 only supports OpenGL ES
kurros: i doubt source is using it on the PS3e
kurros: s/e//
kurros: isn't Portal 1 in the Orange Box on the PS3?
Ivanovic: kurros: that port was done externally
kurros: sure they paid someone to do the port but it's not like valve didn't get the code. they could have merged the PS3 renderer into their source tree by now
kurros: though from what i've read Orange Box on the PS3 runs so horribly maybe it is using OpenGL ES :)
asherkin: hello
asherkin: I was wondering if anybody had a backup of the libs that were avail before the steam_client_linux link was taken down?
asherkin: specifically libsteam.so
christian_lappy: asherkin: ibet mastertheknife has it
r4: :o
mikeplus64: o:
r4: how dare you!
asherkin: yea, I'm trying to track it down as it seems the version included with srcds has some issues with the login proccess and CCryptoPP segfaulting
r4: still trying to hack the client a bit more to work?
r4: :o
asherkin: bassically, yesterday, a few of us from the opensteamworks project managed to get the login proccess running properly
r4: i thought pretty much everyone stopped messing with that
r4: opensteamworks?
asherkin: http://pastebin.com/bnAtb3Px <- working steam login without the steam client, only windows though currently
asherkin: r4, http://osw.limetech.org/
mikeplus64: asherkin: I have an old-ish libsteam.so.
r4: sounds cool asherkin
asherkin: mikeplus64, it's worth a try :P
mikeplus64: I dunno if Valve would appreciate me redistributing it though seeing as the steam_client_linux link is forbidden now.
christian_lappy: asherkin: did you guys already get an letter from a valve laywer ;-) ?
asherkin: nay :D
christian_lappy: be prepared :-)
christian_lappy: you surely violate some of there whatever rules
asherkin: it's been going long enough now with enough links posted on spuf that they must have noticed by now
asherkin: I doubt they care as the good stuff that gets released currently out weighs the bad
asherkin: like the Steam Chat logger
asherkin: a small part of steamworks is even in the source sdk
Azalyn: http://gawker.com/5555807/arizona-elementary-school-whitens-faces-of-black-and-latino-students-on-school-mural
Azalyn: ...
mikeplus64: Stupidity Bonus!
s_20: mikeplus64: i think the word you are looking for is supremacy :D
RambJoe: aw gabe didn't reply
RambJoe: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15283625#post15283625
DonScott: Only 9 more days until we find out what the surprise really is.
RambJoe: :D
RambJoe: i rage when people are like it better not be linux
RambJoe: it really better not be l4d3 though
DonScott: if it's not HL3 or steam for linux.....i have no idea what it would be.
RambJoe: or l4d 2 episode 2
RambJoe: like gabe said it might be on an email lol
RambJoe: episode 1*
RambJoe: http://www.sk-gaming.com/forum/16-DOTA/2299557-Icefrog_goes_to_VALVE_
RambJoe: could be that
mastertheknife: Did anyone login to steam today and found HL deathmatch: source in their games?
mastertheknife: some people got it for free today\yesterday
mastertheknife: but not me :(
RambJoe: um
RambJoe: looking in wine
RambJoe: i dont :(
DonScott: I don't think Dota is surprise worthy to be honest.
kurros: boooo
RambJoe: http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j64/SomeoneMagazine/gabeproof.png
RambJoe: does photobucket add watermakrs or something
kurros: watermarks?
DonScott: L4D3 ......I haven't even played L4D2 yet....jeebus.
RambJoe: tilt your monitor or something
RambJoe: lol i played it a bit
asherkin: wow, I hadn't even noticed that watermark before
kurros: that's his forum handle on facepunch. i_speel_good
RambJoe: ohh
RambJoe: some poeple go too far to fraud though:
RambJoe: http://i.imgur.com/3Cfix.jpg
RambJoe: i like the way he used a camera on purpose to hide details
DonScott: man.....i really don't want to install windows again...at least not on this computer.
RambJoe: wow xfce uses barely any ram
mastertheknife: yeah its lightweight
mastertheknife: but im big fan of KDE4 so ram upgrade is better
mastertheknife: dreams of 8GB ram
DonScott: does linux only use 3-4 gigs of ram like windows in 32-bit ?
Ivanovic: DonScott: no
RambJoe: i want more ram but i dont think theere's any point getting more ddr2
Ivanovic: DonScott: linux uses what ram you got
RambJoe: is tehre anythign like DockBarX for xfce?
DonScott: what's the difference with using a 64 bit linux then ?
Ivanovic: (that is: even in a 32bit linux you can easily use the "bigmem" extension in the kernel and address some 64GB of ram IIRC
Ivanovic: single applications can address more ram
DonScott: ahhh
Ivanovic: there is a limit what a single 32bit application can address
DonScott: ok
RambJoe: in grub do i set it to a different harddrive to dual boot two distros?
RambJoe: with like the UUID
x-pilot: Happy Birthday, Phoronix! \o/
mastertheknife: Ivanovic: you're slightly wrong, PAE requires hardware and drivers support
mastertheknife: and is generally more of a hack than a solution
mastertheknife: 64bit is the way to go
mastertheknife: even with PAE, a single application is still limited to 2-3 GB of ram, unless is PAE aware
mastertheknife: that is because the size of a pointer is 4 bytes
mastertheknife: 64bit's pointer size is always 8 bytes
RambJoe: hmm
RambJoe: someone emails gabe
RambJoe: asks if the surprise is ep3
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: but the OS is able to address the 64GB
RambJoe: he says it isn't
RambJoe: i emailed him if its linux
RambJoe: no reply
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: and yeah, i am well aware that it is more of a hack, but it is possible!
Ivanovic: RambJoe: and what tells you that this is a *real* email conversion and not just some fake?
RambJoe: http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j64/SomeoneMagazine/gabeproof.png
RambJoe: doesn't look fake
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: and yeah, on my desktop i do use 64bit for my whiny 4gb ram, on my laptop i am still using a 32bit version
DonScott: I wonder if Gabe somehow keeps count of all the questions he gets about a steam for linux client.
Ivanovic: i wonder how many mails gabe does handle himself...
RambJoe: i tihnk all of them
RambJoe: apparently he reads them all
Ivanovic: honestly, do you think his sole work is reading mails?
Ivanovic: considering how public that address is, it is likely that he gets hundreds of mails per day
Ivanovic: either he spends some 5 hours per day reading the incoming mails, or he has someone screen this address and the address he uses for "real work" is a different one
DonScott: it would'nt take 5 hours to read a couple hundred emails.....more like 30 mins
RambJoe: yeah maybe he likes multi tasks
RambJoe: and just looks when an email comes in
mastertheknife: Ivanovic: Yeah well 64bit takes on average 20% more ram than 32bit so if its a system with less than 4GB ram maybe using 32bit is better
RambJoe: what is the maximum amount of ram
mastertheknife: Well if its not ep3, it can be linux
Ivanovic: RambJoe: for a 64bit linux: more than you can put into any single computer in the next 10 years
mastertheknife: RambJoe: maybe gabe didn't like your email, or he is sick of linux questions
mastertheknife: RambJoe: 2^64 bytes
mastertheknife: 2^64 bits
RambJoe: Ivanovic, :) mastertheknife :(
RambJoe: 1.84467441 � 1019
mastertheknife: RambJoe: for 32bit its 2^32 which is 4 GB
RambJoe: ah i get it
RambJoe: wait isn't that 4gigabits
mastertheknife: current processors cant even address it all
RambJoe: oh dw read wrong
mastertheknife: I know current processors from AMD only use the first 40 bits for physical RAM and use the first 48 bits for virtual addressing
RambJoe: 18446744100000000000 bytes
mastertheknife: most motherboards\chipsets are still limited to 8GB it seems
mastertheknife: is there any mainstream mobo that can take 16 GB?
RambJoe: i thought they could take 16 fora ges :S
mastertheknife: are there*
mastertheknife: my bad
mastertheknife: oh no. i wrote mobo instead of mobos
mastertheknife: well ill see if i can find any mobo that can take 16GB
mastertheknife: maybe im just outdated
RambJoe: http://www.ebuyer.com/product/170230
RambJoe: http://www.ebuyer.com/product/190979 and �55
mastertheknife: http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128375
RambJoe: 3 doesn't go into that though :S
mastertheknife: Triple channel.. interesting
mastertheknife: My dual PC800 (Rambus PC800) machine from 2000 is still going strong
RambJoe: is there anythign like dockbarx for xfce
mastertheknife: bleh linux thread is dying
RambJoe: :(
RambJoe: aparently ice frog said the surprise wont be dota
RambJoe: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15284588#post15284588
RambJoe: pc exclusive?
RambJoe: hmm linux ...
RambJoe: http://img.ly/1rXO
RambJoe: http://xfce-look.org/content/show.php/Ambiance+Refined?content=125686
DonScott: gawd......just tried to play hl2 through wine.....fps is not so good. =(
RambJoe: i cant even run cs 1.6
Daekdroom: I succesfully ran AoM :P
DonScott: people still play cs 1.6 ?
DonScott: i thought it was cs:source now
ryan22: man i think im going to ask the lkml guys to add OSS4 to the linux kernel
ryan22: users should have choice
DonScott: meh....uplink through steam was working well until I changed the video settings.
RambJoe: yeah 1.6 > css
ryan22: have they fixed the audiosurf crashes in the latest build of wine
DonScott: i dunno lemme try it
DonScott: nah it still crashes
ryan22: bah
ryan22: with the winetricks dlls?
asherkin: for anyone who was intrested in what I was working on earlier, succesfully got steam2 login working in linux, steam3 login is segfaulting though :c
RambJoe: :D
RambJoe: is it possible to make virtual hdds bigger in vbox
ryan22: i think it is in vmware player. you just can't shrink them
RambJoe: oh
RambJoe: dont have that on linux :(
asherkin: I am sad that this code works in windows and not linux, and that I can't find the issue :(
asherkin: I s'pose I can just blame valve :P
RambJoe: the linux client files?
asherkin: anyone know if it was ever possible to login to the steam client linux alpha thing?
asherkin: as if yes, this is my fault :?
asherkin: RambJoe, if this ever worked, you could basically write your own version of the steam interface
giselher: afaik you could login
ryan22: RambJoe: there''s a version of vmware player for linux
RambJoe: is it free though
Nevtus: yeah, people could login and I think some people even managed to send messages through it
ryan22: RambJoe: yep, just not open source
RambJoe: :|
asherkin: damn, my ISteamUser headers are probably fubar then
asherkin: I didn't notice any mismatches though, so :confused:
ryan22: RambJoe: they did open source vmware tools though
s_20: asherkin: what exactly is it you're doing?
asherkin: were any binary patches required for steamclient.so / libsteam.so / libtier0_s / libvstdlib_s ?
asherkin: s_20: steam login using the steam api
giselher: nope
giselher: only for vgui and steam
asherkin: definatly the headers then
s_20: asherkin: so basically what you're doing is building a native application and reverse engineering the headers and then linking to the "leaked" steam files?
asherkin: basically, apart from the fact all the libs are also in the dedicated server :)
s_20: oh.. of course they are ;)
asherkin: http://svn.limetech.org/web/opensteamworks/Test%20Platform/main.cpp
asherkin: the code is all there if you want a gander
s_20: and presumably thoses are in a somewhat better shape
Nevtus: asherkin: if you get anywhere with that the name has to be Vapour!
asherkin: :P
asherkin: my only aim is getting the actuall proccess working on linux
asherkin: so I can build it into my server plugin
asherkin: VoiDeD is working on a .NET client using the .NET interface to OpenSteamwork, as an example for people
asherkin: but the slot for a native linux client is still open for the taking :P
RambJoe: Meanwhile, Ripten reports that a '360 and PS3 journalist' has been told by Valve that the new non-Portal 2 'surprise' at E3 won't be of great interest to them. A PC exclusive makes Episode 3 the more likely candidate.
Nevtus: unsurprsing if they ignore PS3 but so far they've supported the 360 quite well. Why would they ditch it now for Episode 3 while still having a Portal 2 Xbox build?
RambJoe: who said ep 3 :P
RambJoe: xbox doesn't run linux does it?
s_20: yay, ep3! \o/
RambJoe: and the ps3 used to
RambJoe: another thing, CS wouldn't work on consoles
Nevtus: of course xbox doesn't run on linux. The PS3 never ran on linux either
s_20: RambJoe: it's possible to run linux on the xbox360 up to a certain kernel version
s_20: (xbox360 os kernel that is)
Nevtus: I'd be very shocked if Episode 3 was a "PC" exclusive
Nevtus: it could make a better game though
RambJoe: yeah but not officialy
s_20: Nevtus: you think they held back in ep2 because of the console ports?
RambJoe: the ps3 used to supoort it
RambJoe: maybe its a new opengl engine
Nevtus: s_20: no but the consoles are starting to show their age
RambJoe: and xbox doesn't have opengl
s_20: Nevtus: weeell
Nevtus: obviously
s_20: when they design ep3 they also aim at "older" computers
Nevtus: directXbox would never have opengl support
s_20: which have specs comparable to the consoles i guess
Nevtus: like I said, them going for an exclusive is unlikely
Nevtus: I think they will have at least a 360 version
RambJoe: http://www.ripten.com/2010/06/04/confirmation-or-hoax-june-14th-dated-image-hints-half-life-episode-3-as-valves-e3-surprise/
Nevtus: you know... you could take that as a linux port hint "whatever “surprise” the company had to offer, was of the PC exclusive variety"
RambJoe: thats what i was saying lol
RambJoe: also gamersmint deleted my comment calling them out
RambJoe: fucking frauds
Nevtus: RambJoe: I think the article and those 360/PS3 guys wouldn't have taken it as that, rather not having console ports
Nevtus: but it could well be linux
Nevtus: I really hope it is
RambJoe: hmm
RambJoe: http://i45.tinypic.com/110yhwl.jpg
RambJoe: thats what someone posted on the steam forum
RambJoe: http://www.gamersmint.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/110yhwl1.jpg
RambJoe: same image name
RambJoe: tinypic changes the name
Nevtus: maybe they saved it off tinypic?
RambJoe: yeah
RambJoe: http://www.overclock.net/video-game-news/747964-systemlink-half-life-2-episode-3-a-9.html#post9584302
RambJoe: oh gawd
RambJoe: another retarded microsoft fanboy
Nevtus: RambJoe: he clearly knows nothing about graphics programming, or any programming at all. He probably doesn't know that OpenGL is the real industry standard (DirectX only has any real use in home computing/games)
RambJoe: i hate how they think everyone should own widows
Nevtus: I wonder what he thinks of John Carmack (one of the smartest people in the game dev industry) being an OpenGL supporter and user
mastertheknife: Microsoft is good at marketting
meGenius: WHAT???
RambJoe: :(
Nevtus: they know how to spread FUD (apple are getting better at this too)
mastertheknife: look at tesselation, now everyone hears about it and thinks its a dx11 exclusive feature, saying how opengl is inferior, what they dont know is that teseelation exists in OpenGL for over 3 years now
meGenius: i don't think you saw the IE8 ads
RambJoe: nearly as good as apple marketting iphone
RambJoe: actaully maybe better
RambJoe: lolol
sado1: hey, their OMGIGP ad wasn't that bad...
RambJoe: they're good at misleading
RambJoe: lol at needing a DX11 card for tesselation
jumbers: Don't feed the trolls
Nevtus: the morons will buy one for it anyway
Daekdroom: Tesselation = HD2xxx up, right? o.o
mastertheknife: Tessellation for OpenGL needs OpenGL 3.0 and newer i think
mastertheknife: Daekdroom: for directx, HD5XXX and up, and not all of them probably
mastertheknife: http://www.geeks3d.com/20100527/test-opengl-4-0-and-direct3d-11-tessellation-gtx-480-vs-gtx-470-vs-hd-5870-vs-hd-5770/
mastertheknife: In theory, OpenGL should be faster than DirectX because it makes less calls, but i guess the game and the drivers aren't optimized for OpenGL
giselher: Web
giselher: oops
giselher: wrong channel :P
DonScott: Gmod works but not completely.
RambJoe: http://www.overclock.net/video-game-news/747964-systemlink-half-life-2-episode-3-a-10.html
RambJoe: hes at it again
s_20: oh noes, a troll
christian_lappy: where, who, hwo ?
s_20: RambJoe is getting all worked up about a windows troll in some forum
s_20: RambJoe: no offence mate
Modplan: just show the troll this: http://somethingmild.blogspot.com/2010/04/linux-users-do-buy-things-after-all.html
Sleepy_Coder: I say just show him a picture of your cock and tell him his mother saw it too.
Sleepy_Coder: Can't argue with trolls, even success feels unsatisfactory.
Azalyn: i don't think he's a troll, just completely ignorant.
Azalyn: look at his comments about opengl.
s_20: Azalyn: those two groups of people tend to display very similar behaviour
Azalyn: he clearly has no idea what he's talking about.
Sleepy_Coder: lol directx on linux
Sleepy_Coder: I would an hero if that happened.
Azalyn: one of the very reason directx *10* exists is because it was judged that the previous versions were "a mess" by microsoft themselves. and because microsoft in their wisdom decided to make it vista-only ... and of course, dx11 is win7-only..
Azalyn: the result is that dx9 is still a dominant api that needs to be supported
Sleepy_Coder: He sounds more like he's tired of feeding high hopes from the few tidbits of information gleaned over the past month of Linux promotion through the forums. If anything he's a butchered adversary than a troll. He doesn't know what he's talknig about but I have a feeling he's a Linux user himself and is trying to put it in a harsher light to deal with the possibility of there not being a Linux port. (Which I would view as
Sleepy_Coder: unlikely.)
s_20: Azalyn: while technically bullshit, it's a clever move to force people to upgrade
Azalyn: so with direct3d, a developer now has to support *three* fucking mutually exclusive APIs. d3d9, d3d10, and d3d11...
s_20: i don't really give a rat's ass since i get it all for free anyway (msdnaa)
Azalyn: if they hope to support all the gamers out there
Sleepy_Coder: Tessellation became available in OpenGL 4.0 :-)
Sleepy_Coder: Pretty much the only reason people are looking at DX11, that I've seen.
Azalyn: s_20: bundling IE with windows was a "clever move" too, and turned out to be highly illegal. i suppose we'll see how this turns out in the future. heh
Sleepy_Coder: Don't need to update to a later kernel to use that either.
Sleepy_Coder: I never liked the ruling on IE...
Sleepy_Coder: It felt like it was clearly within their right to offer their own browser of choice on their operating system.
Sleepy_Coder: The only reason it failed would be I guess the monopoly of the operating system.
Modplan: the issue wasn't bundling a browser, it was doing so in a way intended to fuck over competing browsers
Gnurdux: dx11 isnt win7-only i thought
Sleepy_Coder: The ruling to disallow IE felt like a blow to free interprise, imo. :>
Gnurdux: isnt it vista-only?
Sleepy_Coder: I don't believe so...
Modplan: including now allowing disabling or removing IE
Modplan: not*
Gnurdux: i actually disagree with the IE ruling too
Ivanovic: Gnurdux: it is "vista and later" IIRC
Azalyn: Sleepy_Coder: that's how antitrust laws work. sorry if you don't like it. to be honest though, i would be ok with completely doing away with antitrust law altogether, *if*, and only *if*, we also do away with copyright and *especially* patents.
Gnurdux: Ivanovic, yeah that is what i meant
Gnurdux: lol
Gnurdux: so the thing is
Gnurdux: what isnt really fair
Sleepy_Coder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX#DirectX_11
Gnurdux: is that Ubuntu can bundle a browser with their OS
Azalyn: if you have one of the those three things, you need the other two.
Azalyn: it's just that simple.
Modplan: Anti trust is for market abuses by monoplies and other such things
Sleepy_Coder: Azalyn: I play with things underground, no need for patent tomfoolery here :-)
Modplan: it is not related to copyright nor patents
Azalyn: Modplan: it is, more than you think. :)
Modplan: how so?
Sleepy_Coder: It would just suck if I became a sysadmin somewhere and I had to prove every software purchase >.<
Sleepy_Coder: Free software <3
Azalyn: copyrights and patents are probably one of the most modern ways of maintaining a monopoly. if copyright did not exist, people would have just ripped off microsofts code years ago, decompiled it, cleaned it up, and created a fork.
Azalyn: and yes, i know very well that this doesn't apply to monopolies like telecoms and such, but that is a different story. and honestly, i think we have less to fear from *that* type of monopoly in the future..
s_20: Azalyn: i think IP makes sense in some respects, the way things are done today however are way out of control
s_20: +though
Daekdroom: ooh ooh.. a discussion!
Azalyn: the microsoft-type, and the record labels, and mpaa, etc.. however, are far more threatening. and antitrust laws are necessary to discipline these groups. if it wasn't for patents and copyrights however, we could just solve this in a free market way. anyone could just use these works and make an alternative. etc.
s_20: i mean.. i'd be mightily pissed off if i made a great invention and was on the verge of getting rich and never having to worry again and some sneaky guy copied it all and hence ruined me
Sleepy_Coder: sigh I woul dlove to compile images directly into the executable for x game.
Sleepy_Coder: wonder if i can do something silly and compile it in as a literal const char
Sleepy_Coder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D
Sleepy_Coder: fun read
Azalyn: s_20: true, but the problem is that patents/copyrights provide the illusion of protection. say your invention is really innovative, right? you patent a few of it's mechanisms. but then a company decides to rip you off anyways.
Azalyn: you sue them.
Azalyn: say "hey, you're violating my patent"
Azalyn: they hit back with like 20 patents that *you* are allegedly violating.
Daekdroom: Azalyn, don't forget countries like China..
Sleepy_Coder: patent pools :<
Sleepy_Coder: used as leverage.
Azalyn: now it doesn't matter whether or not their claims are true or not, every single claim in every single patent could be *bullshit*
Azalyn: but the real problem is
s_20: Azalyn: well patent trolls/pools are a perversion of the IP system
Azalyn: you're not rich *yet*, and not as rich as them.
Azalyn: or rather, even if you've made some money from it, you're not as rich as them.
Azalyn: they will fight you for years
Azalyn: appeal after appeal
Azalyn: and they will destroy you.
Azalyn: at any cost.
s_20: all i'm saying is it is right and just that there is such a thing as IP, not saying the way it is implemented today is okay
Daekdroom: There's a fairly easy way to solve that.
Azalyn: all you can do is cross license with them. and then what happens? they have more marketing power, and they will kill your product *dead*
Daekdroom: Don't invent.
Modplan: there is little to no evidence that shows patents and copyrights are actually useful.
Modplan: most recent studies are showing the opposite
Azalyn: s_20: any implementation will suffer from the same problem...
Daekdroom: According to reverse psychology, pattents suck :P
Daekdroom: *patents
s_20: well if there were a proper regulatory body and no the poor excuses for those we have today..
Azalyn: unless you make it so patents are non-transferable, and can't be pooled together, in which case, no one would even want to use them. that is the same as eliminating it.
Modplan: I DEMAND PAYMENT, YOU'RE ALL READING MY STUFF WITHOUT PERMISSION
Sleepy_Coder: Sort of unrelated, but I hate the DMCA. There was a statistic done by Google or something that said 55% of all the takedown requests they received were false and that 35% of those were from competing businesses wanting to smear x product. Furthermore, to fight it you have the possibility of losing, but if you don't fight it and comply... you are covered under it, protected from being charged as it implies you didn't know it
Sleepy_Coder: was copyrighted material :>
Azalyn: because once again, in the scenario i gave above, someone could still sue you for allegedly violating their patents, even if they aren't using transferred or pooled patents.
Azalyn: they could be using their own patents
Azalyn: that they registered
Modplan: P.S. I patented the steam on linux confirmed thing. You all owe me money
Azalyn: this doesn't have to be a patent troll either, it can be a company like ibm.
Azalyn: so what happens now? now you *cant* even sign a cross licensing agreement, because that would be a form of transferring or pooling of patents.
Azalyn: basically what it means, is your product is frozen in ice, until your patent or theirs expire. and yours *will* expire first, because they will keep registering new ones that apply to your design, but have not been registered by you, because you didn't think of it.
s_20: Azalyn: well, the current system obviously can't cope with software developments
Daekdroom: May we all agree on something?
Daekdroom: Capitalism sucks.
Azalyn: sure, you have prior art, but can you defend it in court?
s_20: *development
Azalyn: hence, your patent expires, and the megacorp steals your idea 20 years later, instead of now. what a fantastic result. heh
s_20: and software patents in general *are* a bad idea
Modplan: http://bit.ly/dacZiS video on how monetary rewards can decrease creative/intellectual work
Azalyn: s_20: well, technically, my two scenarios above, could apply even to hardware.
s_20: because you really can't apply the same rules for physical machinery to an algorithm
Azalyn: what is to say that your hardware innovation doesn't infringe on some megacorp's patents.
Azalyn: and even if it doesnt, they can claim that it does, if they see your hardware invention as a thread.
s_20: the lesson to be learnt here, don't even try to enter the US market ;)
Modplan: but what if your invention is a threat, like a gun that you can shoot them with
Azalyn: it's true that software and hardware patents are different. but hardware patents may very well be just as bad.
Modplan: then threaten to kill them if they sue
Azalyn: because even hardware patents can be abused.
Azalyn: the only difference i think with hardware patents, is that there is no such thing as "free hardware", at least not yet, and probably will never happen until 3d printing becomes capable of such feats.
Azalyn: which means, if you are *making* hardware, you are making a profit, and can reasonably pay for any patents you're using.
Azalyn: and since everyone in the hardware industry has to do so, in theory you're on equal footing with everyone else.
Modplan: I think Azalyn has set his bot to auto type mode
Azalyn: Modplan, pfft.
Azalyn: :P
Azalyn: i was responding to the hardware patent stuff that was mentioned.
Modplan: one thing that's important to remember is that it isn't just ideas, it's the process for making it. Aspects of that are far more difficult to copy
Modplan: even if someone can just take the idea
s_20: Azalyn: well if you look at the "hardware" inringement suits these days, concerning, say, smart phones, it's technically all about software patents
s_20: silly things such as "but i patended buttons to fade out like this"
Azalyn: ehh... manufacturing these days is pretty commoditized.
mjr: hardware patents are indeed either pointless or bad too, just that software patents are way worse
Azalyn: the only good thing about hardware patents, is that innocent bystanders don't get caught in the crossfire.
mjr: less of them, anyway
Modplan: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2009-12-09/
Modplan: dilbert solves all
Azalyn: companies, who presumably make millions or billions of dollars, are the ones making hardware, and are therefore the ones to be targeted by a lawsuit.
Azalyn: where as with software, there is free software and what not.
Azalyn: and freeware
Azalyn: and so on.
mjr: Well, that's large companies. I think we can all agree that those mostly benefit from the system, being as there'll be less competition rising up.
mjr: at least on the short term
mjr: there are smaller companies also in hardware production area, or at least there could be were it not for the monopolis ;]
mjr: lies
Azalyn: Modplan: i love the comment right after that one.
Azalyn: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2009-12-10/
Azalyn: err
Azalyn: the comic**
Azalyn: i still can't believe people still use fax. it makes me cry :(
mjr: also fun: when signed faxes will be taken as valid authorization, but an otherwise scanned digital copy not
Modplan: people stopped using fax? I wandered why I hadn't heard from anyone in a while
Azalyn: mjr: yeah but the small ones are the victims of the system. the patent system doesn't really benefit the small guys who are usually trying to innovate to give selling points to their products.
Azalyn: the system benefits the big guys like you said. so it still places doubt on the validity of the patent system.
mjr: Azalyn, indeed, I was just kinda trying to make the point that there's real victimization going on on the hardware side as well, though the potential for it is lesser
Azalyn: after all, if there were no patents, then *all* companies would have to innovate at insane speeds to keep up with eachother.
Azalyn: oh, right, sorry.
Azalyn: but the way i see it, anyone who gets in this market should know what they are in for.
Azalyn: and of course, the whole point of a corporation is 0 accountability, so who cares if you have to file for chapter 11, right?
mjr: side note: I did actually once take a photo of my signature, opened a PDF document to be signed in gimp, attached said signature, rotated the document slightly and added some noise, and mailed it away
mjr: having no printer and all
mjr: in that case, a non-fax scan was okay, so, well...
Azalyn: a corporation has no life, so no one really cares if it gets killed off. as long as the people owning it get to keep their own assets, then everything is business as usual. they can afford to take as many risks as necessary.
mjr: "as long as"
mjr: you know, real life for a small company isn't that straightforware
mjr: rd
mjr: Anyway, yeah, abolish the patent system please. If it takes too long software is one of the decent places to start with. kthx!
Azalyn: well, as far as i know, no one can *forcefully* take away your personal assets... that is the whole point of a corporation. the corporation's accountability is separate from your own. so if the company goes down under, you don't go with it.
Azalyn: although it's true that some people will invest their own resources in the hope that they can 'rescue' the company...
Azalyn: and then they lose everything. :\
mjr: and to get capital putting one's own assets on the line can be in practice quite required
Azalyn: well, it's one thing to put half of your stuff down as collateral...
mjr: "can my company have a loan please" "well yeah it seems all fine and well but we would like some concrete collateral; a nice house you've got there"
Azalyn: yeah, banks are assholes.
ryan22: man i need to play through half-life 2
Ivanovic: ryan22: maybe in three month or something like that...
ryan22: lol well i do have a mac :P
raevol: happy 6th birthday phoronix!
dandel: I saw that
raevol: BET YOU DID
Gnurdux: so is there any steam for linux news
Gnurdux: ive been gone for around a week
ryan22: Gnurdux: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24144
ryan22: i don't personally think it will be released for a bit
Gnurdux: hmm ok
ryan22: they have obvious mac porting errors in the leaked code. i would say it won't be released for another 6 months at the very least.
ryan22: they seem to just have started development
ryan22: phoronix was a bit early :p
Gnurdux: yes
Gnurdux: wtf is up with that
Gnurdux: words like "imminent" and "official"
Gnurdux: and michael has been talking like that pretty much for 2 years
Azerthoth: fanboi wishes and unfounded dreams
ryan22: and the quest for more ad money
Midler: i just must ask
Midler: does Microsoft has some kind of propaganda on phoronix?
Nevtus: what do you mean?
Midler: for a loooong time now ive seen Microsoft products in the ads
Midler: i mean, visual studio?
Midler: lols
Midler: or their server stuffs and so on
Azalyn: they're just ads..
Azalyn: that happens very commonly.
Azalyn: i imagine that the company that submits their ad can decide what kinds of keywords will be used to target their ads.
Azalyn: so microsoft probably keywords their ads to show up on various linux/opensource/etc pages.
Daekdroom: Which is like..
Daekdroom: Bad targeting.
Daekdroom: It's like showing tampon ads to a mostly male audience.
Azalyn: they think they can change people's minds.
Azalyn: on phoronix it may not make sense, but on some other types of sites, it might.
Azalyn: remember that some linux sites are looked at by businesses.
Azalyn: businesses that are on the fence about linux vs windows
Daekdroom: Hm.
Azalyn: and if they are on the fence, seeing windows ads on a linux site may make them change their mind, for several reasons.
Midler: well
Midler: kinda funny, clicking the ads would help support phoronix
Midler: so in one way, microsoft is helping uhm...oss news
Daekdroom: It would spend M$' money too, right? o.o
Midler: :D
Daekdroom: clicks the ads like crazy
Azalyn: one being the marketing points in the ad itself.. but another might be the perception that these linux sites have to rely on microsoft's ads to fund the site... which makes business people roll their eyes and think "geez, these people are really nobodies, they can't even pay their own hosting."
thomashc: hello
ryan22: Azalyn: It's not as bad as the fat ads I had on my site before
ryan22: adbright ads are the lowest of the low
ryan22: at least you can customize the google ads ;)
thomashc: hmm
thomashc: QT FTW
x-pilot: thomashc: QT for QuickTime? :-P
thomashc: no
thomashc: lol
thomashc: QT as in the toolkit :P
s_20: it's spelt Qt then :p
thomashc: Oh well
x-pilot: s_20: +1. yeah
thomashc: not like it matter
thomashc: *matters
ryan22: lol i once got flamed for spelling OpenSUSE wrong
s_20: the people from trollte^Wnokia think otherwise
thomashc: lol?
robotti^: QT sucks.
Nevtus: it does matter. For example the misunderstanding wouldn't have happened ;)
thomashc: ryan22, it's OpenSuSE
thomashc: :P
thomashc: robotti^, why?
ryan22: it seems novell changes the capitals on us randomly each year
robotti^: too complicate
thomashc: robotti^, it's the same as GTK lol
ryan22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSUSE
thomashc: ryan22, it's always been OpenSuSE I believe
ryan22: nope its openSUSE now
thomashc: I dunno about that
thomashc: who knows
thomashc: who cares lol
thomashc: all it is is a fucking capitol
thomashc: doesn't matter
ryan22: the guy who flamed me ;)
thomashc: well he was an idiot
thomashc: ryan22, was it as bad as this? http://pastebin.com/4ZLPDSPi
robotti^: show that link about steam for linux?
thomashc: hmm?
robotti^: I know my english is bad
robotti^: :D
ryan22: ive barely seen anyone flmae anyone on debian irc
ryan22: unles
ryan22: you
ryan22: do
ryan22: this
ryan22: and ill stop
robotti^: :D
thomashc: ryan22, mention ubuntu and you will XD
thomashc: and debian IRC has gotten better
ryan22: well yes
thomashc: when I first used debian...it was horrid
robotti^: wanker
thomashc: ?
thomashc: lol
ryan22: robotti^: what distro do you use?
robotti^: ryan22: Ubuntu
ryan22: ah
ryan22: thmashc: you mention ubunut theyll just do this
ryan22: !ubuntu
ryan22: on debian, irc flames you
ryan22: automation is the debian way ;)
thomashc: ryan22, lol
robotti^: I AM TOTALLY DRUNK. AND IT IS MY 26TH BIRTHDAY!
robotti^: L O L
Daekdroom: We can totally notice you're drunk.
robotti^: damn it
Daekdroom: It's like.. all caps lock.
Azalyn: no one gives a shit. go die in a fire.
Daekdroom: Actually, go spit on a fire.
Daekdroom: :D
robotti^: :D
robotti^: it is swell
robotti^: it is summer
Azalyn: why aren't you dead yet?
robotti^: :)
x-pilot: Azalyn: o_O
Daekdroom: We have all sorts of people here.
Daekdroom: Drunks, haters, naives, o_O's
robotti^: It is not ordinary to drink alcohol
robotti^: but is my birthday.
robotti^: sorry :)
Azalyn: die.
robotti^: :D
Kame: ARGH, where is my overscan slider!?
robotti^: :)
ryan22: http://carlodaffara.conecta.it/?p=420
ryan22: "An analysis of WebM and its patent risk"
robotti^: now I gotta go. Because I want to eat something :)
Azalyn: how about a big fat cock?
Daekdroom: Good fucking lord.
Daekdroom: What's up with these people?
Azalyn: which people?
Daekdroom: All these people that are talking and acting like crazy
Azalyn: the people with their webm patent crazy talk?
Daekdroom: One should expect to see them engaging a huge discussion about.. yeah.. something like webm.
Daekdroom: But I meant the other people.
x-pilot: Daekdroom: Did you listed me as "o_O"? Oh, well...
Kame: So, how about that webm? That's crazy stuff
Azalyn: cock is a proper discussion topic.
Daekdroom: the way it was brought up, not so much
Azalyn: Daekdroom: you're so closed minded.
ryan22: lol
ryan22: eh i guess dont want to be sued if i encode something in webm
ryan22: at least with h.264 i know who to pay beforehand
Daekdroom: Azalyn, I think I'm way too open-minded, actually, it's all a matter of which subject we're into :P
Azalyn: is that a subtle way of telling us that you're into golden showers and futanari?
Azalyn: ryan22: you wish. people have been sued over violating patents even with h264. :|
Daekdroom: Well, that is a subtle way of telling you that I'm into letting people get away from jail because it's society's fault, not theirs.
Daekdroom: and so on.
ryan22: i just want google to do a full public patent audit
Azalyn: and mpeg-la does *not* provide *any* indemnification by the way, that is a myth.
Azalyn: which means even with h264, they do not sue mpeg-la, they can sue *you* directly.
ryan22: well h.264 has been out for 3 years and those "submarine" companies have extra incentive to disclose their patents because of this
ryan22: http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora/2010-April/003769.html
Azalyn: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1923218,00.asp
Daekdroom: There should be a law against submarine patents.
Azalyn: this was AT&T ... not a submarine company.
Daekdroom: A company should claim its patents once it's aware there's somebody inflicting it.
ryan22: thats 4 years old and nothing came of it
ryan22: ya it should be like trademarks
ryan22: if you want the patent, you have to defend it
Azalyn: ryan22: who cares, it's proof that you are no safer with h264. don't fool yourself.
ryan22: well im in a coutry without software patent so i am safe ;)
Azalyn: then why are you even afraid of using webm?
ryan22: but im still concerned about webm
Azalyn: sighs
Daekdroom: Waiting for your "feature" or whatever to settle in the market and then sue whoever is responsible is clearly an attempt to make money or sink a company, not to claim what is yours.
ryan22: i dont want another gif situation
x-pilot: ryan22: thx for the link! Very interesting!
ryan22: and if webm isnt audited, it could easily become one
ryan22: x-pilot: no prob
Azalyn: you guys don't understand how this even works. saying something like "oh, there should be a law against submarine patents" is quite ignorant. do you *really* think the law explicitly says "hey, you can choose to enforce shit whenever you want" ?
Daekdroom: Well.
Azalyn: the problem is that there is no way to *prove* that a company *knew* about the infringement beforehand
Daekdroom: Indeed...
Daekdroom: then there's nothing left but hope that all those CEOs will burn in hell, if it exists.
Daekdroom: Dishonest bastards!
Azalyn: unless they are fucking stupid, like seagate, where they said awhile back something like "if SSD's catch on, we may have to sue them for patent infringement" or something...
Azalyn: webm probably *was* audited. but the problem with making that information public is that they would be showing their cards to the mpeg-la.
Azalyn: the patent game is a bit like playing poker.
Daekdroom: bluffs
Azalyn: at the moment, google could have it's own patents that could be broad enough to cover some obscure h264 feature, they might be able to use such a patent in a countersuit if the mpeg-la decides to go after webm. furthermore, google's patent license for webm says that if people sue google, they lose the 'open license' to the patent portfolio...
Azalyn: the whole thing is set up so that google could potentially have it's own minefield that the mpeg-la may accidentally trigger. and they may actually have more to lose than google. after all, google opening the codec is a sort of kamikaze move, they're not looking to monetize the software or the patents.
Daekdroom: They're not looking into losing money eit--- ah, I get.
Daekdroom: They won't get shit, but they won't lose anything either unless mpeg-la is willing to lose as well..
Azalyn: where as the mpeg-la is fucked if they get attacked, if even *one* mandatory h264 feature is even vaguely similar to something that google has in it's portfolio, they can start a court battle that will last years and create FUD around h264, which will be just as bad or worse as the FUD the mpeg-la is trying to create about webm.
ryan22: well until that minefield is triggered, im not touching webm
ryan22: i want to know where to step
Azalyn: but see, if google publishes it's whole technical/legal analysis of webm, they are pretty much telling the mpeg-la everything they know, and exposing their strategy.
ryan22: and at least with h.264 i do
Azalyn: honestly, we are safer if google 'appears' to have a secret ace up it's sleeve.
Azalyn: whether it's true or false.
Modplan: google, mozilla and co aren't gpomg to use WebM without at least doing some legal review
ryan22: mind you i plan on setting up a video store: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18702255&postcount=128
Modplan: going*
Modplan: You can already use WebM on Youtube
ryan22: and right now webm is isnt competive for my market
Azalyn: on some level, google has already provided enough assurance to many partners. i mean listen, if amd, nvidia, and all those other companies are involved...
ryan22: i need the highest quality video codec and hey im willing to pay $0.20 to get it for the reduction in hardware costs
Azalyn: you can bet that there was some serious legal work involved to check everything out.
ryan22: webm doesn't have hardware decoding atm, so its useless to me
ryan22: and well need new hardware for hardware decoding, just like we needed new hardware for vc-1
Azalyn: they might actually be able to get hardware decoding with just a software update. most hardware decoders are just specialized DSP's. that's why a video card can handle both vc-1 (wmv9) and h264 with the same accelerated decoder.
ryan22: actually not really
ryan22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_PureVideo#Table_of_PureVideo_.28HD.29_GPUs
ryan22: not all of nvidia chips supported all of the codecs
ryan22: mine for example, a 8600, couldnt do vc-1 bitstream
Azalyn: that is probably a software issue.
ryan22: nah
Azalyn: not a hardware one.
Azalyn: yah.
ryan22: its the same libraries
ryan22: same software and the 9300 in the ion chipset can do full vc-1 acceleration
JEEB: quietly lols at people trying to make someone use webm for something that it can't do at the moment. (hint: not that I'm against WebM, I love the extra usage of Matroska it will bring n' all)
Azalyn: that doesn't really mean much. i mean the early cards like the 7 series didn't even *have* a dsp for this at all as i understand. the way they did it was through the shaders.
ryan22: well of course im going to use matroska
Azalyn: sort of like gp-gpu.
ryan22: look at the differnt hardware revisions
ryan22: each one had different hardware
Azalyn: yawn.
Azalyn: doesn't mean anything.
ryan22: it means a lot
ryan22: the processors have to be customized to support each format
Azalyn: nah.
ryan22: its trivial to add
ryan22: but its a hardware change
ryan22: well just see all the new phones and gpus have webm support in a year
ryan22: but ya mp4 sucks cuz it doesnt support ac-3 or dts
ryan22: so ill have to use mastroka anyways
JEEB: Another thing I like with the WebM "package" is that they are using vorbis with something else than the ogg container >_>
Azalyn: changing the hardware can optimize things a bit, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to change the software. with gallium3d and so on, you're probably going to see video decoding acceleration for many many more codecs than just h264, vc1, and webm...
JEEB: wait... was that the project that was trying to do video decoding on those shaders?
Azalyn: in fact there is a gallium state tracker with that goal in mind.
ryan22: it wont be 10% cpu for 1080p like i get with the ion chipset and h.264
ryan22: well actually it was 20% on the atom but 10% with my p4
Azalyn: well, the early nvidia cards like i said, like the 7 series, did it almost entirely in shaders *anyways* ...
JEEB: IIRC it won't be quick in a long time since shaders aren't exactly made for decoding kind of a job
JEEB: Azalyn, it wasn't full decoding IIRC tho
ryan22: well is why the 7*** didnt have bitstream decoding
ryan22: *which
JEEB: IIRC they just offloaded a part of the job there, and almost no decoder took it into use
JEEB: Only some two or three IIRC max
JEEB: (if it even were shaders)
ryan22: itll likely just do motion compensation, resizing and deinterlacing
RambJoe: seems like gabe is replying "fake" to lots of shit
RambJoe: http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w306/Tuskin38/proof.jpg
RambJoe: to that half life movie rumour
RambJoe: where someone made a fan page claiming to be the actaul person
RambJoe: never replied fake to my linux question though :D
ryan22: well they have obvious mac porting errors in the leaked code. i would say it won't be released for another 6 months at the very least.
RambJoe: :(
ryan22: development on it has probably just begun
RambJoe: Somone else should make a quick emai like
RambJoe: I heard you're going to be annoucning steam for linux at e3, true or false?
RambJoe: he hates me im prob on his ignore list :'(
ryan22: i think that "big" announcement will just be half-life ep 3
Tazer1: That is a pretty big announcement >w>
Azalyn: didn't he say it wasn't going to be that? :|
RambJoe: no
RambJoe: he said its not going to be ep3
RambJoe: ep3 isn't a surprise anyawy
RambJoe: i hope he announces it to piss all those like "i'll rage if they announce a linux client we must all bow to microsoft"
Azalyn: linux client isn't a surprise either, i mean most people know by now...
Azalyn: because of the leak
RambJoe: its meant to be
RambJoe: actaully dunno
ryan22: so was ep3 :P
RambJoe: why was it on a public server lol
RambJoe: no they talked pretty openly that there would be one
RambJoe: if its an mmo they better not charge per month
Tazer1: Valve doesnt do that with TF2
Tazer1: why would they start now?
RambJoe: because they dont host the servers for tf2
RambJoe: i dunno most mmos charge per month :(
RambJoe: i trust valve not to though
Tazer1: well yeah thats the thing
Tazer1: they dont host the servers
Tazer1: And TF2 seems to work well for them
Tazer1: Why would they suddenly change tactics like that
RambJoe: actually
RambJoe: ice frog said its not the dota thing
RambJoe: tbh i dont even get what dota is lol
Azalyn: Tazer1: uh, an mmo is very different from an fps.
Azalyn: normally you cannot let other people host an mmo.
Azalyn: unless it's instanced like mad, in which case many would not even call it an mmo.
Tazer1: Oh, I thought he meant just a general massive multiplayer online game
Tazer1: So TF2 doesn't count as an MMO?
Azalyn: ......
Azalyn: no.
RambJoe: its an fps :S
Azalyn: there is no such thing as a "general mmo"
Tazer1: of course its an fps, but its also a multiplayer game U:
Azalyn: it's not 'massive' though
RambJoe: mmo =/= multiplayer game
Tazer1: Yes, true
Tazer1: I suppose thats the root of my confusion ;p
Azalyn: 'massive' refers to how many players are in a world at once. and the world is persistent.
Tazer1: I see o;
ryan22: lol definitions and terms
ryan22: woot they updated mplayer to rc3 for maverick
ryan22: still svn though
JEEB: Well, svn is the official repo. Even if uau's repo works better, I don't think they'll be switching soon
ryan22: so no multithreading or the new ordered chapters
JEEB: at least as long as the mplayer project shows even SOME signs of life
ryan22: or the improved vdpau
JEEB: yup :3
ryan22: lol ya svn sucks
ryan22: maybe ill setup the ppa after around june 19, thats my last day for one of my courses
ryan22: i think ill set it up to patch the git build to have va-api support too
JEEB: IIRC there was some va-api stuff in uau's repo
JEEB: at least I remember searching for the word
ryan22: maybe. i emailed him asking him to add it if it wasnt already there
JEEB: :)
ryan22: i also asked for him to add webm support, though i think thats not possible at the momenet as the ffmpeg is half working from what i read
JEEB: http://repo.or.cz/w/mplayer.git?a=search&h=HEAD&st=commit&s=vaapi
JEEB: two commits from last year :3
ryan22: at least theres no licensing issues with webm now that its bsd
ryan22: cool
ryan22: *ffmpeg patch
ryan22: this scares me: http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/2010/apple-broadcast-network.html
thomashc: ryan22, someone got bored: http://i41.tinypic.com/2lmao7b.png
ryan22: man gnome sheel look like bleh
thomashc: ?
ryan22: it looks so slow to use
thomashc: it's not
ryan22: like mac os x
thomashc: it's actually faster than gnome 2
ryan22: man mac os x is so inefficent
thomashc: the GUI is done in javascript
thomashc: ryan22, not really
ryan22: all a desktop needs is a taskbar
ryan22: thats it
thomashc: maybe
thomashc: but
thomashc: the taskbar is 20 years old
ryan22: and why has it been used for 20 years ?
ryan22: cuz it works
thomashc: sure, it worked, but now we have great technologies to revolutionize the desktop
thomashc: yeah, it works
ryan22: people have tried ideas to the gnome sheel before
thomashc: doesn't mean it couldn't be better
ryan22: *simlar
ryan22: the same paradigms
thomashc: maybe
thomashc: but Gnome Shell is unique in itself
thomashc: It's a great experience to use
ryan22: i tried that paradigm on ubuntu netbook remix
thomashc: eww
ryan22: it was pretty sure
thomashc: UNR sucks
ryan22: but slow
thomashc: it's nothing like Gnome Shell
thomashc: trust me
thomashc: Gnome Shell is done in JAVASCRIPT, it's fast as hell too
thomashc: it works very nicely
thomashc: use it with docky and it's great
ryan22: this is better than gnome shell: http://infinityos.net/node/21
ryan22: javascript is slow
ryan22: xfce is done in c
thomashc: not quite
ryan22: javascript is interpretive
thomashc: JS isn't that slow
thomashc: and, code wise
ryan22: c is compiled
thomashc: Gnome shell is very simple
thomashc: yes, but C is limited
ryan22: c is always going to be faster than an interpretive language
thomashc: IMO C should only be used for low level technologies
thomashc: ryan22, Maybe
ryan22: so limited that gnome is already written in it?
thomashc: But there comes a point where that doesn't matter
thomashc: ryan22, Gnome has been shifting away from it for awhile now
ryan22: it matter on my netbook
thomashc: Sure, core elements may be written in C
thomashc: but loads of the programs are Python, Mono, or Vala
ryan22: everything desktop related and always running should be at least recomplied into c
ryan22: side programs meh
thomashc: C is ancient
ryan22: but the base desktop is c
thomashc: if you understood how terrible C is to code in....
zak1111: true but python is far more versatile these days
thomashc: ESPECIALLY GUIs
thomashc: zak1111, It's insanely versatile
zak1111: pretty much everything uses it
ryan22: zak1111: and those things take up crap tons of ram
ryan22: look at gwibber
thomashc: ryan22, ACTUALLY, most of python programs are in C
thomashc: the bindings and modules are nearly all written in C
ryan22: not gwibber ;)
thomashc: so python is not the problem
thomashc: Gwibber sucks anyways
thomashc: never liked that program
thomashc: lol
ryan22: python is a frontend language
thomashc: Choqok works much better
ryan22: i like pino
thomashc: ryan22, Python is an everything language
thomashc: Most of python is C
thomashc: the modules and stuf
thomashc: *stuff
ryan22: there are no "everything" languages
thomashc: True
thomashc: but python is versatile enough to be used with nearly anything
thomashc: It's not language to write your kernel in, for sure
Azalyn: lolz, sure it is.
thomashc: lol
thomashc: hmm
thomashc: I hear Pypy is also very fast
ryan22: you write your frontends in a interpretive language
Azalyn: nor is it a language to write a game engine in, a web browser application, a word processor app, an image renderer... and many many other things.
ryan22: and write your backends in c
thomashc: Azalyn, but you must realize many of these things are actually written in C
thomashc: More code of a python program is C than python
ryan22: Azalyn: it does make fast guis though. and good scripts
Azalyn: the fact that they are C is exactly my point.
ryan22: :P
thomashc: Azalyn, how so?
ryan22: because you write your backends in c
thomashc: Why do you have to write them in C?
ryan22: because then they are fast
thomashc: Why cant I write my program in C++? Or something like ocaml, or something like Pascal, if I choose to?
Azalyn: what you call a "backend" is the very core of the application, it's the important part. the frontend is not exactly what keeps most developers up at night...
thomashc: exactly
Azalyn: because only INFIDELS use those.
thomashc: lol...
ryan22: ++
thomashc: ryan22, C/C++ are about as sane as ASM
thomashc: C is more sane than asm slightly
ryan22: not really
thomashc: and C++ is less sane than ASM
thomashc: lol
thomashc: if you *really* need something so low level, you might as well write it in ASM
thomashc: :P
ryan22: http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/defective.html
Azalyn: asm is not portable, C is.
thomashc: Azalyn, true
ryan22: c is a marco for assembly
ryan22: *macro
thomashc: C++ is a hack on top of C
ryan22: which is why you shoudnt use it ;)
thomashc: and C isn't OOP
ryan22: only windows programs like c++
ryan22: why do you need OOP in a backend
thomashc: the only good thing written in C++ is Qt, which is amazing.
Azalyn: i don't get why OOP even requires a whole language change.
Azalyn: why can't it just be done as a library
ryan22: gobject works fine
Azalyn: like gobject, only better. heh
thomashc: Azalyn, you can do OOP in C but it's hacked and well...eww
ryan22: :P
Azalyn: well, i've read complaints about gobject having a lot of boilerplate
Azalyn: Qt has it's own object system on top of c++ i believe...
thomashc: yeah
ryan22: thomashc: the thing is you dont need OOP when writing backends
thomashc: ryan22, why should developers go through the hell of trying to write a very large program in C for marginal performance improvements?
ryan22: cuz what you do is split each distinct part of your backend into a separte program
thomashc: Why can't they do it in something like Vala?
thomashc: :P
ryan22: and just connect the backend modules together with pipes and text
ryan22: there you have encapulation and garbage collection
ryan22: no need for object
ryan22: s
thomashc: Why wouldn't you use a *sane* language
thomashc: like Vala
Azalyn: i'm suspicious about this "python ui's are fast" idea though. in my experience you can still notice a performance difference between native and interpreted frontends.
thomashc: which provides near performance of C in a much better package
ryan22: OOP is only useful when youre writing something that requires the idea of an object
Daekdroom: Python? D:
thomashc: Azalyn, Well that also depends on the coder
ryan22: like a gui, game or web browser
thomashc: Sometimes code is just crap
Azalyn: although perhaps this is an optimization problem, maybe the interpreter needs to be more optimized..
thomashc: an sometimes that shows up more in interpreted languages
Azalyn: does python have a JIT?
ryan22: perfect python code will never be as fast as half-decent c
thomashc: Azalyn, no, but you can use Pypy
thomashc: ryan22, not if Pypy can help it ;)
ryan22: Azalyn, you can add one i think with parrot
thomashc: ryan22, also, why do you ignore my argument for Vala? :)
ryan22: because as awesome as vala is, its a frontend language
thomashc: ryan22, Vala compiles to C
ryan22: you should never mix your frontends and backends
thomashc: Vala has near the same performance as C
ryan22: then you get windows
Azalyn: vala is a preprocessor isn't it...? :|
ryan22: yep
thomashc: so why do you *have* to use C?
ryan22: it just recomiles into c
thomashc: there is no recompiling
thomashc: it compiles straight to C
thomashc: and
thomashc: the performance is the same as C
thomashc: :P
ryan22: because objects are useless when youre writing backends
Azalyn: why is the example on wikipedia using void main ...
Azalyn: :|
thomashc: lol
thomashc: Azalyn, it's a lot like C#
zak1111: cause it's rediculous
thomashc: or Java
ryan22: forgive me for quote esr but: http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch14s05.html
Azalyn: why not make these features a part of a library...
Azalyn: this is already using gobject
ryan22: its just c using gobjects abstracted so you can program it like c
ryan22: *c#
thomashc: it's a great idea
Azalyn: is there some problem here that would make it impossible to have a similar object system added as a library..
ryan22: well its just g-object
thomashc: allows for rapid application development with performance like C
ryan22: just a pretty way of using it
Azalyn: ryan22: yeah, but apparently easier or something, right?
Azalyn: and more elegant?
ryan22: ya
Azalyn: so can't they just add that elegance as a library?
ryan22: its a replacemnt for mono
Azalyn: or maybe make it part of the next gobject, when they break compatibility
Azalyn: with version 3 or something
ryan22: cuz everyone cuz getting of mono apps
ryan22: *was
ryan22: *sick
Azalyn: lol @ that sentence
ryan22: so they decided to remake c#, but drop the runtime
Azalyn: anything is better than mono i guess.
thomashc: what's wrong with Mono?
ryan22: its as slow as hell
ryan22: cuz it uses a runtime
thomashc: ignoring your performance concerns
Azalyn: although i feel that libraries are better than just inventing new languages and using preprocessors.
thomashc: Azalyn, what do you mean, anything is better than mono?
ryan22: eh sometimes people are just lazy
ryan22: and they want a prettier way of doing things
Daekdroom: What's wrong with lazyness?
thomashc: Daekdroom, hallelujah
thomashc: XD
Azalyn: i was responding to what ryan22 said about people being sick of mono and therefore gnome making vala to replace it. i'm saying that although it's not an ideal solution, since they've invented yet another language, that at least it's better than mono.
thomashc: I see
thomashc: Mono is great
thomashc: Mono isn't slow
thomashc: if you have hardware fro mrecent history...
Azalyn: you'd better see, because i don't know how to dumb it down any more than that.
Daekdroom: Wait. Mono is a plataform independent .NET implementation, right?
thomashc: *from recent
Azalyn: ;)
thomashc: Daekdroom, yes
Daekdroom: I swear I thought its point was.. like.. port stuff.. and not have stuff built on top of it.
Azalyn: let me be clear, it isn't mono that i dislike. it's .NET in general.
Azalyn: i mean really, why do we need this again?
Azalyn: we have java already... why more managed code bullshit?
thomashc: lol
thomashc: Java....
thomashc: java is funny
Daekdroom: Java looks ugly.
thomashc: ^5
Azalyn: java also kicks mono's ass in performance tests.
thomashc: Java has also been developed for....a long ass time
thomashc: it's quite natural that they have it very optimized
Daekdroom: very optimized? ahem.
thomashc: Daekdroom, As much as a vm can be :P
Azalyn: sure, so why should fans of managed code (lolz) switch to the latest "new fashionable managed code language of the day"
Azalyn: ?
Azalyn: practically none of that shit is usable outside of the business world... like for general desktop use. azureus is a great example.
Daekdroom: A developer can't predict wether or not he'll create something worst than what is already out there. Maybe Mono was something beautiful in theory..
ryan22: man i hate azureus
thomashc: ryan22, you hate everything
thomashc: that isn't C or XFCE
thomashc: *cough*
ryan22: im a distro maintainer. it's my job to hate everything
Azalyn: azureus was considered great in features, but for fucks sake it was terrible in performance... and then utorrent comes out, and everyone just defects practically overnight.
thomashc: mhm...
Azalyn: that is what happens whenever someone uses managed/interpreted/whatever code, anything that is slower than C/C++, that is what always happens.
Gnurdux: java doesnt have fucking operator overloading
Gnurdux: still pisses me off
thomashc: ryan22, So you put a few GUI tweaks on Ubuntu
ryan22: lol man don't go there
thomashc: That's not a lot to brag about
thomashc: *cough*
Modplan: TROLL FIGHT
thomashc: ryan22, When I was 12 I rebuilt half of fedora's repository :P
thomashc: from SRPM
thomashc: yeah I was a geek....
thomashc: XD
Azalyn: so project A releases some java app, or whatever, even python let's say... then someone writes a clone in C, the users will defect and use the C one because it's faster. and the guys from project A get all pissed off because someone "stole their users"
ryan22: thmoashc: https://launchpad.net/~infinityos-core
Daekdroom: When I was 12.. I didn't even use Linux.
ryan22: when i was 12 i installed kde 3.0 on mandrake 6.2
ryan22: never again am i using an rpm distro
Modplan: I don't think I was born when I was 12
Daekdroom: The biggest thing I ever done on Linux is compiling a kernel.
Daekdroom: and no, I didn't apply any patches xD
thomashc: ryan22, lol, so almost a decade ago you get mad at RPM and dont ever use it....that's funny XD
thomashc: Daekdroom, I hacked the kernel source onc
thomashc: *once
thomashc: I have no idea what urged me to do it but I added standard C libraries to the kernel
ryan22: thomashc: you have no idea what the term dependency hell means
thomashc: ryan22, I do, and it just doesn't happen these days
Daekdroom: We need an ego-o-meter
ryan22: until you go back 10 years, and try installing anything on a distro
Azalyn: honestly, when utorrent comes to linux, i may actually ditch deluge... the only thing to keep me back would be that it's not opensource.
Daekdroom: Azalyn, what if they port uTorrent using Winelib?
Azalyn: and yes, i know deluge has a C++ backend. but still. the ui slows it down when i start it. since i have a lot of torrents loaded in it.
Daekdroom: will you still use it?
ryan22: eh deluge has a much nicer webui
thomashc: ryan22, Mandriva....is horrible....
thomashc: no offense to anyone
Azalyn: Daekdroom: i don't think the mac port was done with wine..
thomashc: it's GREAT until you use the package manager
ryan22: you should have tried it 10 years ago ;)
thomashc: ryan22, Fedora > Mandriva
Daekdroom: Azalyn, I don't, either, but it's still possible o.o
thomashc: BSD 1.0 > Mandriva
Azalyn: i don't think it is.
ryan22: red hat wount even install on my computer
Azalyn: if that was the case, then they wouldn't be "working on it"
Azalyn: they'd release it overnight
thomashc: ryan22, I didnt say Red Hat did it?
ryan22: anacodona crashed, i actually phoned dell for tech support :P
thomashc: *I
Azalyn: since it would probably compile against winelib immediately
Azalyn: it already runs in wine.
Daekdroom: Well, indeed.
thomashc: ryan22, I never said Red Hat at all actually
thomashc: :P
ryan22: this was before there was a fedora
thomashc: duh
thomashc: why mention it?
thomashc: I mentioned fedora
thomashc: not Red Hat
thomashc: :P
ryan22: because they are decendent of the same thing
Azalyn: i use gentoo right now.
Azalyn: i've been considering arch though.
Daekdroom: claims to be the biggest noob as he uses Ubuntu
ryan22: actually i think i tried red hat 9. i think that was the first version with urpmi
ryan22: no yum thats it
Azalyn: the compiling is getting a bit old..
thomashc: urpmi is a mandriva ting
thomashc: *thing
thomashc: it has nothing to do with Red Hat/Fedora
ryan22: Azalyn: try arch. i heard its rolling release done right
thomashc: urpmi is Mandriva's hell hole of a package manager
ryan22: no use flags ;)
Azalyn: although then again, now that my package.keywords and package.use are setup the way i want, i could always just use those files on every new gentoo install, and i wouldn't have to do as much work as the first time i did it.
mikeplus64: Arch FTWTWTWTWTWTW.
ryan22: when i use mandriva there was no urpmi ;)
thomashc: ryan22, I didn't ask
thomashc: or care
ryan22: lol
thomashc: this isn't the good ole Red Hat 5 days
thomashc: :P
ryan22: lol me a 21 year old an old timer
ryan22: hah
thomashc: lol
Azalyn: the problem with no use flags though, is that it will probably pull in every god damn dependency imaginable even if you have no use for the optional-at-compile-time feature that pulls in the dependency.
thomashc: you are acting like it with the "back in my day" stories
thomashc: XD
ryan22: lol well why do i think i got a mac
thomashc: dunno
ryan22: then i released mac os x was not unix
ryan22: and came back to linux
thomashc: linux isn;t unix either
thomashc: *isn't
Daekdroom: Nothing is Unix but Unix.
thomashc: Daekdroom, yup
ryan22: its much closer to one than mac os x ;)
Azalyn: yo momma is unix.
thomashc: lol
ryan22: your pappa is Multics
Azalyn: nigga please.
thomashc: ryan22, btw i admire your "testing" process
Daekdroom: No, my mom is a human being, no matter how hard that is to acknowledge..
thomashc: "Our testing for non-default applications is basically: Does it install, open, and stay open?"
ryan22: its enough
ryan22: more than gentoo does ;)
thomashc: lol
thomashc: mhm...
Azalyn: when did you last use gentoo?
Azalyn: they actually take forever to stabilize packages now.
ryan22: i have horror stories from friends
Azalyn: openrc and baselayout-2 is still not fucking stable... :|
ryan22: it may have gotten better though
ryan22: i avoided source based distros cuz of the fun i had with mac ports
Azalyn: which is unbelievable because practically no one uses baselayout-1 anymore, and if you have problems with it, *no one* can help you with it.
Azalyn: nor can you submit bug reports against it... or anything
Azalyn: it's totally deprecated, but it's successor isn't stabilized yet.
Azalyn: i just bit the bullet and unmasked it anyways.
thomashc: lol
Azalyn: everyone says it's safe to use it.. but then they tell you "you should never mix stable and unstable packages"
Azalyn: honestly, you need intuition to use gentoo.
thomashc: hehe
thomashc: is the IRC friendlier than LFS?
Azalyn: "hm, this looks safe."
Azerthoth: been running ~ for years without issue
Azerthoth: bump into stupidity like libpng ... mask it and move on
Azalyn: i run stable, except for openrc, baselayout-2, and various other packages that i actually give a shit about. but not system packages though.
Azalyn: anything that seems lower level, i keep it stable.
ryan22: hmm
ryan22: i think i might try arch
Azalyn: like my browsers. i keep those to the latest in portage.
Azerthoth: could always switch to funtoo, atleast openrc/baselayout2 is marked stable there
ryan22: gentoo seems a bit to close to macports for my liking :P
ryan22: then again gentoo is actually maintained
Azalyn: i should try arch in a vm, if i like it, i could dd the virtual disk to a real disk.. and change the configuration where applicable.
ryan22: ya ill probably try it in a vm too
Azalyn: i'm at the funtoo page now... while i'm not too interested in the distro at first look.. i have to say i'm interested in the awk/sed tutorials they seem to have there..
Azerthoth: arch is nice enough, I would be there were it not for funtoo and sabayon to keep me interested in gentoo
Azalyn: regex is one of the aspects on linux that i still never got a full grasp of. i always got lazy and just found the quick hacky way to solve my problems, or just edited files by hand since i figured it would take less time than actually learning to regex..
Azalyn: or finding weird untrusted scripts online that appeared to do what i wanted... and hoping for the best :P
ryan22: theres saying
ryan22: if you say "I can solve this problem with regex"
ryan22: you then have two porblems
ryan22: :P
Azalyn: awhile back i actually took some first steps and learned quite a bit of the regex basics in just a few hours. it was enlightening.
Azalyn: i started with like some really ugly solution to the problem, and then as i understood more, i optimized my regex more and more, and eliminated bits and pieces that were useless.
Azalyn: eventually ending up with something that looked almost *too* simple.
Azalyn: i actually took notes of my learning experience, since i forget all too often. and i don't want to lose anything i learned.
Azalyn: anyways, that was with sed.
Azalyn: awk looks a bit more intimidating.
ryan22: heh
Azalyn: like it might stab me in the face if i look away or something.
ryan22: lol the bad side of unix
Azalyn: the good side, is once you learn all this shit, you get to be an elitist evil genius asshole to all the noobs.
Azalyn: :D
Azalyn: "you expect someone to write your drivers for you? what a BABY. want me to call the wahhhhmbulance for you?"
Azerthoth: hehe
thomashc: lol..
thomashc: Gentoo users are ok
thomashc: LFS people though...
ryan22: lol well i am doing LFS as a thesis project'
ryan22: that should tell you something ;)
Azalyn: well, i think elitism isn't too bad, there is a limit of course.
Azalyn: i mean we have to get some benefits for all our years of hardship.
Azalyn: poking fun at people is one of those... of course, there is innocent fun, and then there is just being downright mean and heartless.
thomashc: maybe
thomashc: but some people may use debian or even ubuntu and know more than people who do Gentoo
Azalyn: i don't define knowledge based on distribution choice.
thomashc: yeah
ryan22: i like the automated flaming on the debian irc channel ;)
ryan22: !ubuntu (and dont come back)
ryan22: neither do i
thomashc: For example, I can do gentoo or arch nearly in my sleep(gentoo with all the compiling for sure lol)
thomashc: I use OpenSUSE
ryan22: man i rember when i first used yat
ryan22: *yast
Azalyn: i've wanted to try LFS for a long time.
ryan22: it was a beauty. i really excited when they open sourced it
Azalyn: just for the sake of doing it.
ryan22: lol do what i did and get uni credit for it ;)
Azalyn: i figured it could help me get a deeper understanding of all the lower level packages and what they are for.
ryan22: ya i figured it would provide a good background for my thesis, which is on the economics of open source
ryan22: i was orginally just going to do a LFS build but i decided hey why not add some econ into it as well
thomashc: LFS really doesnt teach you much
thomashc: other than why distributions exist
thomashc: :P
ryan22: well i wanted to find out the roots of the open source development model
ryan22: and exactly why it works
Azalyn: i don't think lfs tells you that either
ryan22: and have enough info to write i think was 8000 words on it
thomashc: LFS wouldn't really help much there
thomashc: LFS doesn't teach - it instructs. big difference
ryan22: i also wanted to provide that i know what im doing a lil
Azalyn: the 'automated lfs' thing is an interesting concept though
ryan22: im tried of being called newb just cuz im 21
Azalyn: just set up your list of packages
Azalyn: and poof.
thomashc: yeah
thomashc: still though
thomashc: even Gentoo is more practical than LFS
ryan22: i need something thats looks hard on paper though to get a credit ;)
thomashc: lol
thomashc: Gentoo?
thomashc: or even arch
ryan22: wouldnt be enough
Azalyn: yeah, but i don't like gentoo's added complexity. maybe it's much to ask, but i'd like the simplicity and elegance of slackware, with the power of gentoo.
thomashc: ryan22, if you described it in detail, it might
ryan22: nah
Azalyn: and the ability to optionally choose binary packages.
ryan22: sounds like arch to me
thomashc: ryan22, Well, Arch would blow over the heads of most people
Azalyn: which is why i've considered arch.
thomashc: Azalyn, Arch is like that but you can optionally choose source packages
thomashc: :P
Azalyn: hm, i think i'm gonna go to bed now.
Azalyn: later.
thomashc: later
Azalyn: don't bother waking me up even if steam on linux is confirmed, i've lost interest. :P
ryan22: later