Phoronix IRC Log: 2010-06-02
^CruX^: hey guys, i've got a small question about which graphics card to buy for my (kinda old) pc, and even when you mouse over a link, the status bar at the bottom has a fixed width (EVEN IF IT HAS ROOM TO RENDER THE FULL LINK) so you never can see the full link.
^CruX^: I can name the details if anyone is willing to help (i do not demand that someone wants to!)
Ivanovic: you could just name the details and wait if someone does reply...
^CruX^: Ivanovic: great idea, i should have thought of that
^CruX^: I've got a AMD 64 4000+, 2 Gigs of DDR 400 RAM, and a Radeon X1600XT. The thing is, that i plan on buying a 24"-Screen and (of course) i really want to watch FullHD-Videos with that one... but the X1600XT doesn't support 1080p at all
^CruX^: I know that the proprietary drivers for ati cards are kinda bad, at least for legacy cards and i really want to use that card for a while (with the newest X-Server and Kernel of course...)
Ivanovic: you should mention which distribution you use, which board and/or which "slot" you got for the graphics card (pci express or agp?)
^CruX^: arch linux, PCI-e 1.0
^CruX^: I've been looking at the 8400GS, the Geforce 210, the 220GT and the 240GT
^CruX^: I at least want to keep the current gaming-performance of the x1600xt (using win7 so far) and watch h.264 under arch...
^CruX^: ouh, i just realize the newer cards are named GT220 and GT240, stupid naming rules...
^CruX^: I kinda think that the GT220 and the X1600XT are on the same peformance-level while gaming... but i could need a few more fps :) I don't know if the GT240 is really worh it 'cause my CPU is that old...
oNNy: ^CruX^: hi :D
Ivanovic: michaellarabel: spambot in the forums
Ivanovic: username: killerbballa
mastertheknife: those bots love phoronix
mastertheknife: wow what a terrible moderator, he locked the 3rd linux thread: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1288141&page=3
^CruX^: [...]Although the Steam Client is not available for Linux, there is a native Linux version of the Half-Life Dedicated Server available.[...] did that mod even read a single post in the thread? His statement kinda missed the whole topic^^
mastertheknife: lol every post in this thread is off topic:
mastertheknife: funny forums
RambJoe: how long is valves e3 event?
RambJoe: i wonder if they'll announce a new engine which natively supports OpenGL
mastertheknife: I doubt it
mastertheknife: well its possible
mastertheknife: but it wont be released in the next or two years
^CruX^: The source engine does support OpenGL nativly, doesn't it?
Nevtus: ^CruX^: not really. It's still uses the DirectX API at heart
^CruX^: Nevtus: I wasn't sure, but i always thought that you are able to select opengl or d3d...
Nevtus: you can in goldsrc (Half Life 1 engine)
asraniel: ^CruX^: it's native opengl, just some people don't view it as native opengl, but it actually is
RambJoe: didn't valve announced OSX like the day before their last conference
mastertheknife: ^CruX^: thats in goldsrc, which is actually native opengl, native d3d was added later but the engine was designed for opengl so it performs much better with opengl
mastertheknife: I think Valve will use the E3 to promote the mac client
mastertheknife: which is stupid imo, its perfect timing to announce a linux client and promote linux gaming
mastertheknife: this is once in a year oppurtunity
RambJoe: that's not a surprise
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: honestly, for gamers the gamescom in cologne is the bigger event
RambJoe: the mac client is already out
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: by far more visitors than E3
Nevtus: Dunno about them (re)annoucing the mac client but I doubt them annoucing a Linux client either. The audience at E3 isn't right for that (at present)
RambJoe: maybe they could announce it
RambJoe: but not the major announcement
Nevtus: the surprise is that the live portal 2 demo at E3 is running on the new native linux client
RambJoe: has portal been confirmed to run Source?
mastertheknife: Nevtus: I wish
Nevtus: RambJoe: huh? Portal (game) runs on Source (engine)?
mastertheknife: RambJoe: of course, Portal is a Valve game, it definitely runs on Source
RambJoe: yeah but what if they announce a new engine
mastertheknife: New engine will take years to develop
mastertheknife: Portal 2 should be released this year
mastertheknife: so.. impossible
Ivanovic: the current speculation is that the suprise will be HL2 episode 3
RambJoe: might have started years ago
Ivanovic: (at least speculation on gaming sites)
Nevtus: you mean a rebranding? Considering Source is always getting updated at every new game it always is their "new" engine
RambJoe: or that dota thing?
RambJoe: G4 are going to broadcast it
Nevtus: would HL2 Episode 3 be a surprise though? Everyone knows it'll come out at some point
Nevtus: could be a gameplay demo I guess
mastertheknife: I actually heard HL2 ep3 is slightly delayed because of the mac client
Ivanovic: Nevtus: yes, a gameplay demo could be the surprise
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: nah, it is delayed for windows and mac because it will first be released on linux!
Nevtus: STEAM ON LINUX CONFIRED
Nevtus: maybe Gabe will walk out in a penguin suit. That'd be surprising
asraniel: thinks that that joke gets old
mastertheknife: im so pissed off at valve
RambJoe: i want to know whats in the forbidden steam client folder :(
Nevtus: asraniel: you mean as old as people asking when a Steam client is getting annouced? That's sort of the point
Ivanovic: okay, i know the surprise
Ivanovic: gabe will show HL2EP3
Nevtus: running on an ipad
Ivanovic: in the middle of the game he will use the compiz cube to show the steam linux client
Ivanovic: since the demo is running on a linux system!
Nevtus: I already suggested that! (without the compiz part)
Ivanovic: Nevtus: the compiz part is what makes things interesting
Nevtus: yeha, the compiz cube could get the gamer audience not to dismiss it though.
Ivanovic: having all the stuff working nicely in a redirected environment
Ivanovic: (with other words: not running on nvidia since there it is damn slow)
RambJoe: and then you see its running on wine :(
Nevtus: nvidia on linux slow? eh?
Ivanovic: Nevtus: composition slows nvidia down, ati not (as much)
Nevtus: Ivanovic: you know that compiz idea actually IS a good idea. It would certainly get the gaming press to write about it and get gamers interested
RambJoe: does compiz cube work in full screen apps?
Ivanovic: Nevtus: yeah, sometimes i got good ideas...
Nevtus: if they just have a tux slide no one would care
RambJoe: i dont think it will be a new CS
RambJoe: as they are already updating source
RambJoe: and no point unless new engine
RambJoe: updating counter strike source*
Nevtus: maybe Valve have got a new game series?
^CruX^: guys, which graphicscard is the best if i have a AMD 64 4000+ and a Radeon X1600XT and i at least want to keep my current gaming-performance and watch 1080p under (arch)linux (PCI-e available)?I've been looking at the GT220 or the GT240...
JEEB: anything that you can get with a VP2 or VP4 chip. Should stay away from VP3 chip'd cards :V
JEEB: VP3 had weird limitations. VP2 is somewhat slower and has less features than VP4
^CruX^: THis is related to the feature-sets right?
^CruX^: yap, it is... Feature Set B is kinda crappy...
^CruX^: But is it a good idea to "stuff" an AMD 65 4000+ with a GT 240 or is the CPU/GPU balance fine..? still not sure about that
JEEB: dunno, shouldn't make anything slower at least lol
^CruX^: I found a list where the X1600 and the GT220 are really close together, but i really don't know how good that list is (http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_list.php)
^CruX^: It at least seems to be kinda good
^CruX^: For example Race Driver GRID: Do you think that it will make a "huge" difference if i buy the GT240 (which i think is like 50% faster)... I think that the CPU is going to be a bottleneck
^CruX^: JEEB: You look like you know what you're talking 'bout. Are ATi Cards a good choice in this situation? As far as i know they still lack h264-acceleration
JEEB: IIRC they have their own stuff, but it's a mess so far
JEEB: both driver and app-side
^CruX^: thats what i thought... yeah
^CruX^: too bad... i think ati cards are, at least in terms of gaming, better
JEEB: at least price/speed value is better
^CruX^: brb, thanks for your help so far!
^CruX^: ya, exactly
JEEB: but as I said, they suck with video on all platforms :V
^CruX^: JEEB: Yep, this is why im going to buy a nvidia card, my cpu is not able to decode 1080p without framedropping...
Kano: did somebody compare povray 32 vs 64 bit?
Kano: it seems 32 bit is much faster
dandel_: which os (Linux?)?
Kano: kanotix excalibur
^CruX^: Kano: depends on the specific software
^CruX^: But the 64bit architecture is better than the 32bit
Kano: i said povray
^CruX^: Im sorry -.-
Kano: MD5 Failed: http://update.x-plane.com/xplane_945_timedemo.tar.bz2
Kano: Try downloading the file again (Y/n)?
Kano: for a 2nd time...
neorazorx: Valve cancels POrtal 2 press event at E3 (http://www.destructoid.com/valve-can...g-175183.phtml). The event will be replaced by a surprise -> STEAM FOR LINUX CONFIRMED XD
Katzo: neorazorx: Your link is broken.. http://www.destructoid.com/valve-cancels-portal-2-press-event-at-e3-and-it-s-amazing-175183.phtml
mastertheknife: what a troll :/
mastertheknife: "I don't really see what's the big deal with Linux... Windows is fine."
Katzo: I think they still plan to show pieces of Portal 2.. things might hint for their ARG, which is said to continue at E3
neorazorx: another link: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/64064
Katzo: IGN: "What could this be? Valve confirmed to us Portal 2 will still be shown at its booth during E3."
Katzo: maybe a limited portal 2 coop beta?
s_20: when is the e3 scheduled for?
RambJoe: not as bad as this
mastertheknife: RambJoe: microsoft fanboy
RambJoe: i don't see their logic
RambJoe: they're like, whats the point in not spending £150 on a shitty bloated Os
dandel_: neorazorx, That might be good, but valve hasn't released all source games on mac (and thus linux)
ryan22: its a pain to put windows, mac os x and linux on a macbook
ryan22: refit makes it somewhat better, i still couldnt get linux booting working properly though
ryan22: *triple booting
ryan22: the game situation on mac os x is crap as well
ryan22: i wonder how much valve used cider to port steam over to mac os x
christian_lappy: ryan22: 0%
ryan22: i commend valve for actually making a proper port
ryan22: unlike 95% of mac game devs...
christian_lappy: isnt ea the only "cider" company ?
ryan22: civ uses cider as well
ryan22: mostly games ive played on mac os x use cider
ryan22: which is why the sys requirements are usually a bit higher than the windows versions
NigeyUK: ello ryan :)
ryan22: hey :P
NigeyUK: hmmz so whats valves e3 surprise gonna be
NigeyUK: nah they wouldnt do that at E3
sado1: Valve Linux distro.
RambJoe: aw hell naw
RambJoe: when they announced mac
NigeyUK: pmsl not more frikkin distros..lol
RambJoe: didn't they do it the day before a conferance
RambJoe: then announced portal 2
NigeyUK: cant remember tbh
NigeyUK: maybe HL 3 or EP3
RambJoe: maybe new cs acutally dunno
RambJoe: didn't cs 1.6 come out just before css
NigeyUK: afaik yup
RambJoe: hmm could be a new counter strike then
christian_lappy: or ps3 wsupport ;-)
RambJoe: unfortunately it would just split the community in 3 ways as people would still stay on the others
NigeyUK: i was surprised looking at the stats, how many people still actually play 1.6
Gear0: well they are updating CSS. They will be adding achievements.
NigeyUK: hey christian_lappy :)
Gear0: 1.6 is awesome
NigeyUK: is there a seperate company / team doing the css beta ?
RambJoe: lol i haven't played cs 1.6 since i got the css beta
RambJoe: um hidden path is helping them
RambJoe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTgqdlA_jE8 lol thats well cool
RambJoe: when you put the mouse over the buttons those random lines light up too
christian_lappy: hey NigeyUK
NigeyUK: yep, thats about as far as my build gets, wish theyd unlock the update url :(
RambJoe: how did you do it btw
RambJoe: was it all from the linux one or was some from mac
NigeyUK: all from the linux build
RambJoe: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15238680#post15238680 "Nice things aren't free."
RambJoe: oh cool :D
NigeyUK: espes has some more progress as far as fonts go
christian_lappy: really ?
NigeyUK: yeah they partially render as weird little dots now..lol
NigeyUK: right ive just emailed that tit at 5by5 again lol
NigeyUK: hopefully he can get something from valve oficially, seeing as they did a video interview with them, they got more chance than me.
christian_lappy: i doubt that
NigeyUK: don't be so negative :P
NigeyUK: have a bit of faith
ryan22: i think they should wait until the linux apis stablize a bit
mastertheknife: RambJoe: its someone from this channel who made the video..
christian_lappy: ryan22: which will never ever ever happen
mastertheknife: hey nigey :)
NigeyUK: hey mastertheknife !
ryan22: christian_lappy: i guess they could use sdl
ryan22: though sdl doesnt like alsa
mastertheknife: SDL works nicely with alsa here
NigeyUK: hm do i try steam via wine again or not, last time it just crashed every time :@
mastertheknife: I dont have any pulseaudio crap on my system
mastertheknife: just alsa and oss emulation
christian_lappy: me too
Nevtus: I use SDL with ALSA too. no problems
christian_lappy: alsa or oss simply work
Nevtus: the only people that use pulseaudio seem to be ubuntu users that don't know how to get rid of it :P
mastertheknife: Pulseaudio API is very advanced and has a lot of features, but its just not very stable yet
ryan22: i had to change it to oss to get some allgero stuff working
mastertheknife: Alsa on the otherhand is very stable
ryan22: mastertheknive: it will never be stable
mastertheknife: ryan22: why?
ryan22: alsa is too complicated for a wrapper to handle
ryan22: pulseaudio only support 70% of alsa's functions
Nevtus: isn't pulseaudio high latency by design?
mastertheknife: i have no complains about alsa, it does its job, the only problem i had with it is sometimes sound cards being in wrong order, but adding index=0 and index=1 to the options fixed that
ryan22: i like oss better and i think a real wrapper could actually work with oss
mastertheknife: The problem with linux audio is also the latency, many game devs find its not easy to have low latency audio in linux
ryan22: the only problem is oss4 is a lil behind alsa in terms of hardware support atm
ryan22: it doesn't help that thats by design like Nevus said: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2010-May/011343.html
Sleepy_Coder: mmap()'ing sound card dedicated memory is not too portable...
Sleepy_Coder: though who uses pulseaudio for gaming? XD *runs -->*
Sleepy_Coder: who uses pulseaudio? XD *runs -->* *
ryan22: i dont ;P
Sleepy_Coder: only uses openal/alsa
ryan22: the problem is all the mainstream distros use pulseaudio, so end-users think that all its problems are caused by linux
Sleepy_Coder: Dunno why people assume Linux audio is a mess, I avoid pulseaudio, that weird KDE sound server, the other odd thing...hmm.
ryan22: and not egotistical distro maintainers
Sleepy_Coder: I'm sort of minimalist though.
ryan22: esound isnt too bad
Sleepy_Coder: I don't use GNOME, KDE, XFCE, Compiz... *shudder*
ryan22: it isnt maintained anymore though
ryan22: openbox is nice
Sleepy_Coder: uses dmix in alsa for software mixing
ryan22: i got an install of debian to use 35MB of ram with openbox
Sleepy_Coder: Though I haven't tried using my Creative card in Linux so I might be able to do hardware mixing?
Sleepy_Coder: usually uses the dwm or awesome window manager, average under 3 or 7MB of RAM :x
Sleepy_Coder: Though I really have no reason to be minimal anymore, I just love how basic things seem XD I have 8GB of RAM now... @.@
ryan22: Sleepy_Coder: thats was the entire os :P
Sleepy_Coder: loves a keyboard-driven "desktop environment"
Sleepy_Coder: ryan22: Okay fine :( I forget the average there
Sleepy_Coder: 35MB total is amazing for X :o
ryan22: i heard awesome has issues with uprading though in terms of settings
Sleepy_Coder: A lot of the API's for it's Lua configuration change frequently, yeah... :(
ryan22: seems like whenever an update is released, 5 ppl moan about it on penny-arcade
Sleepy_Coder: It's pretty hard to have fun with unless you're close to the development team
Sleepy_Coder: I think the lead was sort of taking off for a bit and a close friend took over the main dev for a while... it's a bit disorganized but still fun
Sleepy_Coder: I mostly love it for the clean use of ANSI C :p
Sleepy_Coder: Whenever people tell me C can't do x or is not as organized as C++, it's a tad opinion-based yes, but I can point them to awesome :-)
ryan22: i use xfce, but thats mostly cuz i use the utilities
Sleepy_Coder: And then Lua is an awesome language, imo.
Sleepy_Coder: awesome language :p
ryan22: im too lazy to do everything myself
ryan22: oh man im tried of c++ programming trying to tell me how awesome c++ is
Sleepy_Coder: awesome takes a bit of work to get things comfortable... at one time I had several keybinds for opening firefox and searching google, wikipedia, imdb, the pirate baby, ... there was just a lot of flexibility between handling windows and scripting application behaviors
Sleepy_Coder: er... the pirate bay XD
ryan22: i usually just point them to this: http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/
ryan22: well i think you can do similar stuff with xfce
Sleepy_Coder: I really wish I could love C++, but it looks like the gingerbread house owned by a witch that ate hansel and grettle
ryan22: its pointless
ryan22: objects are useless without full garbage collection
Sleepy_Coder: I mean, it has a lot of really cool features, but at the same time a lot of really area-specific featuers that should almost never be used and can easily be abused
Sleepy_Coder: I don't want to use a language that encourages abstraction, seems to incorporate every feature under the sun where most might not even understand them...
Sleepy_Coder: Just blah.
asraniel: c++ with qt is really nice
Sleepy_Coder: I forget what the last annoying thing that got to me was.. it was something in the STL where a function was supposed to take an std::string so when I passed it a const char * it temporarily instantiated it as std::string to perform some operation that did not require twice the memory just to make it become std::string
Sleepy_Coder: I have a friend or two who does a lot of C++ dev with Qt, so I have heard it's nice, yeah... <3
ryan22: i like c# and vala
ryan22: qt does make c++ bareable
Sleepy_Coder: I think I've just found my vice though, C and Lua have made me much happier than most languages
Sleepy_Coder: Qt is lovely, but I just don't think it looks quite nice unless used with KDE or on Windows :x
markatto: lua makes me mad
ryan22: qt is bleh on mac
markatto: 1-based indexing is stupid
Sleepy_Coder: has not seen Qt on the Mac :o
Sleepy_Coder: markatto: I remember being very angry about that.. cant' reemmber what changed it for me :\
markatto: it's also the main reason I do not use zsh
ryan22: then again every cross-platform toolkit except gtk is bleh on mac
Sleepy_Coder: I was so pissed off for a month with Lua because it couldn't do anything useful with unicode, the string library it is distributed with only accepts ASCII
Sleepy_Coder: But then I learned that I shouldn't even be using unicode in html source and everything went pleasantly well XD
Sleepy_Coder: (of course it's allowed since...html4? it's just icky though)
markatto: lua has a few nice things about it
markatto: but I MUCH prefer python
ThomasHC: stumbles in
ThomasHC: loves python
Sleepy_Coder: ew you come in packs
Sleepy_Coder: I prefer Lua mostly for the small distribution size and easy C bindings
Sleepy_Coder: It's somehow very fast on top of that >.>
markatto: python also has easy C bindings
Sleepy_Coder: Under 1MB for all of Lua is <3
ThomasHC: needs to learn C but he finds himself resisting the urge to throw his computer around.
markatto: lua is indeed a bit faster though
Sleepy_Coder: wouldn't know how to do C bindings in Python :x
ThomasHC: Even Assembly is somewhat more interesting
markatto: cython is the best way
Sleepy_Coder: I should really learn x86 assembly
markatto: Sleepy_Coder: and you think that C would make you want to throw your computer around....
Sleepy_Coder: I mean, I imagine it's quite easy after dealing with the Lua stack all this time, I jus thaven't put in the effort to understand T.T
Sleepy_Coder: Nah, I just want to get into embedded work someday :)
ryan22: Sleepy_Coder: eh c is more than fast enough
mastertheknife: Sleepy_Coder: I agree with what you said earlier, OOP everywhere might confuse things. I am a C fan and see no point in using C++ except for Qt or big programs that doing in C can be messy
ThomasHC: Assembly is NEVER easy
Sleepy_Coder: all is well with the world.
ryan22: you dont need OOP for backends
ThomasHC: Interesting, maybe
ThomasHC: easy? no.
markatto: OOP is more useful for some things than other
Sleepy_Coder: What was that OS that was written entirely in asm?
Sleepy_Coder: I need to find it again.
ThomasHC: I think I just read about it
ryan22: OOP is great for frontends and guis
Sleepy_Coder: I want to try it and see what the speed is like :p
ryan22: you need it for games and web browsers too
mastertheknife: ThomasHC: C is very simple and fast to learn, start with reading tutorials in google
ThomasHC: http://www.kolibrios.org/ is written in all asm
ThomasHC: mastertheknife, I have books on it, it's not that it's hard at all, it's that, it's stupid as a language. Though.....it is WAY better than C++
ThomasHC: C++ is a giant hack
Sleepy_Coder: Hmm I think I might have been reading about a different OS written entirely in asm, but thanks I'll look at this :-)
mastertheknife: ThomasHC: When coding in C++ i do it just for the classes\OOP, i always ignore the iostream and STL stuff
mastertheknife: printf all the way
Sleepy_Coder: http://menuetos.net/ ahh it was menuetos, the thing it forked off of
ThomasHC: but still
ThomasHC: OOP in C++ is a hack
mastertheknife: I also love github :)
ThomasHC: Linus Torvalds says if you don't like git, I quote "you are but ugly and stupid"
ThomasHC: That's reason enough to switch right there I think
Sleepy_Coder: jesus fuck >.>
markatto: iostream is ugly
Sleepy_Coder: a 3MB livecd
Sleepy_Coder: for the kolibri os
mastertheknife: I used both SVN and git and there is definitely no comparison, especially because you can work offline in git, when i was serving in the army i had a lot of free time but had no internet, and git allowed me to work
ThomasHC: Sleepy_Coder, I think they have a floopy version too
markatto: Sleepy_Coder: that's still a lot of lines of ASM though :P
Sleepy_Coder: i came
mastertheknife: Linus Torvalds is a genious and he did awesome job with git
ThomasHC: Yes he did
ryan22: i love this vid
ThomasHC: But you must note, overall, most of the coding is not his lol
Sleepy_Coder: yes yes, first impressions blah blah blah... but this looks cool :p
ThomasHC: ryan22, I saw that vid
ryan22: ThomasHC: at least hes humble enough to admit it :P
ThomasHC: on avsforums
ryan22: ah cool
mastertheknife: With git you have a local copy of the repository and can do anything offline, I wonder why CVS and SVN didn't think of this
ThomasHC: yeah, not a member, I'm a lurker I guess from time to time :P
ryan22: mastertheknife: control reasons
mastertheknife: I know Linus hates CVS, and also hates SVN because SVN's goal was "CVS done right", he said SVN is useless because CVS can't be done right
ryan22: these project teams like svn so they can dictate who has commit access
ryan22: alot of this stuff is suprizingly political
ThomasHC: hmm....PyWebKit GTK is nice. IF I could figure out how to handle downloading stuff my web browser would be nice lol
Sleepy_Coder: I uninstalled VMware a month ago >.<
ryan22: i asked the dev team of webkitgtk if they could switch to v8 a few days ago
Sleepy_Coder: I can't put the asm os thing in a vm :(
ThomasHC: There isn't much documentation and what there is I have to mentally convert from C to python
ryan22: i think i pissed off the main dev. i was a lil too insistent
ThomasHC: ryan22, I hear the default webkit JS engine is beating V8 in some tests....forget the link
mastertheknife: I wonder, why people like python so much?
mastertheknife: whats so special about it?
Sleepy_Coder: Lot of datatypes to pleasure yourself with.
ryan22: mostly cuz im tired of epiphany not being able to edit my posts on vbulletin forums
ThomasHC: mastertheknife, Rapid Application Development, Easy to Maintain Code, Extensible.
Sleepy_Coder: Really I think it's the community that pretty much ensure you can find a binding for anything you could ever dream of.
ThomasHC: ryan22, hmm, it works for me in my webkit browser
ThomasHC: let me try it again
ryan22: ThomasHC: ya its just webkitgtk i think. the dev said it was how epiphany did scroll bars or something weird
ThomasHC: yeah probably
ryan22: so i was a lil off base for telling them to change the js engine
ryan22: meh, at least i got their attention :P
Sleepy_Coder: You should have asked them if they liked to take it from behind.
Sleepy_Coder: About the same thing :p
Sleepy_Coder: sigh... linus steam linus steam linux steam...
Sleepy_Coder: where are you.....
ryan22: well i was nice about it. they got their lube...
Sleepy_Coder: good boy.
ThomasHC: ryan22, I just tried it in the web browser I wrote and it's for sure epiphany :P
ryan22: good to know
ryan22: which one?
ThomasHC: haven't released it yet or anything
ryan22: i tried midora, but it was pretty unstable
ThomasHC: Just one I wrote in python
ryan22: ah cool
ThomasHC: hmm, midori is usualyl stable for me
ryan22: thats a good idea actually
Sleepy_Coder: kazehakase was fun
ThomasHC: It has some small issues but overall works well
ryan22: since the engine is in c++ the extra resources taken up by python dont really matter
ThomasHC: ryan22, Yeah, it uses about the same RAM as Firefox, maybe a bit less, here it is on the right if you want to see: http://imagebin.ca/view/qtRnR38G.html
ryan22: thats nice
Sleepy_Coder: kazehakase can use either webkit or gecko
Sleepy_Coder: I think it also has an unstable plugin for rendering using trident from IE
ryan22: i use epiphany in infinityos just cuz it respects the gtk+ font settings
Sleepy_Coder: but I never got it working
ryan22: which firefox doesnt :(
ThomasHC: Gecko bindings are a pain though.
ThomasHC: from my experience
Sleepy_Coder: i still prefer firefox on linux
ryan22: i have 20/400 vision so i up the dpi to 120
ThomasHC: ryan22, ahh so you are the guy behind infinity os. I'm thomas from your forum :P
Sleepy_Coder: just because while chrome is faster, it is uglier and has horrible tab handling
ryan22: ya i noticed your post :P
Sleepy_Coder: I can make firefox look exactly how I want.
ryan22: chrome just crashes for me
ThomasHC: ryan22, Yeah I was wondering what username you were lol
ryan22: well i go back darkphoenix22 as well
ThomasHC: Yeah I noticed that while doing a google search for infinity os :P
ryan22: but i would like a stable chrome
Sleepy_Coder: I hate how in Chrome when you open a new tab from a link on some page it'll place the new tab seemingly wherever. If you were to open two links from the original page it will open two new tabs, you switch to one, decide you don't ike it, close it, it will resume focus in the 2nd of the two newly opened tabs, instead of reverting to the tab that last had focus
Sleepy_Coder: It's f-cking annoying T.T
ryan22: try epiphany
ryan22: it has worse tab handling
ThomasHC: ryan22, Try Chromium, its in Lucid's repos
ryan22: tried it
ThomasHC: it's chrome - tracking software
ThomasHC: pretty much
Sleepy_Coder: Also, the dumb tab graphics keep you from seeing all of the
ThomasHC: it's never crashed on me
ryan22: chrome has wierd issues it seems with the PAE kernel
ThomasHC: that is a possibility
Sleepy_Coder: Chrome's strength is in security, not ease of use, imo T.T
Sleepy_Coder: Pisses me off so bad.
ThomasHC: another thing about python, you usually don't have securtiy issues lol
Sleepy_Coder: I use Chrome on Windows because Firefox looks like a bitch, Firefox on Linux because Chrome isn't comfortable.
ryan22: this bug has been fixed, but i still have issues: https://bugs.launchpad.net/infinityos/+bug/555493
mastertheknife: I use opera in both windows and linux, opera 10.5X in linux although its not stable and crashes often
Sleepy_Coder: I mean, both browsers I guess are pretty acceptable, I just get so tired of idiot Chrome fanboys acting like it's the answer to all our prayers.
Sleepy_Coder: I konw a few people on the dev team that are drunk off Google.
ryan22: it think theyre doing tricking stuff with the plugins which is running into the nx-bit
ryan22: opera is nice but their interface doesnt integrate well
ryan22: im superficial
Sleepy_Coder: application-specific theming is horrid :(
Sleepy_Coder: The only reason I'm a bit unhappy about Steam coming to Linux.
ThomasHC: it only works on windows
ThomasHC: where you know, the GUI sucks anyways
ThomasHC: not so much in Vista/7
ryan22: everything should just follow gtk, even qt :P
ThomasHC: in XP....yes
ThomasHC: ryan22, for the most part it does now
ThomasHC: they have a theme fro QT that draws using GTK
ryan22: it does, but theres a few wierd apps that like to completely ignore my themes
ThomasHC: Usually app specific
ThomasHC: so ryan22, tell me about Infinity, eh?
ryan22: basically media centers suck
ryan22: xbmc is slow as hell
ryan22: so i made a distro that had a decent interface that could scale to the TV
ThomasHC: I remember back in 2008 I was going to make a media center distro
ryan22: making the TV just a monitor
ThomasHC: so yeah I know how it feels
ThomasHC: hmm, nice
ryan22: its hard to make the computer a TV
ThomasHC: It could also work on desktops though of course
ThomasHC: yeah it is
ryan22: but pretty easy to make a TV into a computer
ryan22: well i use on here
ryan22: mostly cuz i hate ubuntu and its instablity
ryan22: and debian is too out of date
ThomasHC: Hmm, I've never had issues with ubuntu's stability
ryan22: and i dislike rpm and find compiling everything stupid
ThomasHC: As for debian, try Debian Testing
ryan22: debian testing breaks alot though
ThomasHC: what you could do
ThomasHC: is make an app like Linux Mint's mintUpdate
ThomasHC: or just modify mintUpdate
ryan22: i just use apt
ThomasHC: so it only upgrades desktops applications
ryan22: and PPAs
ThomasHC: MintUpdate is just a frontend for apt :P
ryan22: so its all integrated
ryan22: i dont mind software center either
ryan22: though i use aptitude for everything
ThomasHC: You could use some of mint's custom apps
ThomasHC: They are really nice
ryan22: the mint guy is very withdrawl
ThomasHC: He's got a family and kids
ryan22: hes a bit notorious in the ubuntu community
ryan22: mind you the ubuntu is just a bunch of middle managers so eh
ryan22: most of them cant even code but feel they should direct a distro
ThomasHC: He's got a family and kids and makes LinuxMint, so he's got a lto of work to do I imagine, I've spoken to him a few times
ThomasHC: I mean you don't *need* to code to make a distro at all
ThomasHC: but they usually come together that way
Gear0: do you have to have access to the source code to port an application from windows to linux? Or can it be done practically by another method? some kind of reverse engineering?? and is this legal?
ryan22: so you end up with this: http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showpost.php?p=15073202&postcount=197
ryan22: i barely coded anything
ryan22: but the head dev of xubuntu cant do a bash script
ThomasHC: Gear0, Usually, you do, unless it's written in say, python, and it is legal if you can get the source
ThomasHC: ryan22, whoa
ryan22: you should code as little as possible, but you still should be able to code
ThomasHC: I never liked Xubuntu to be honest
ThomasHC: I never saw the point
ryan22: because if you cant code, you dont understand the code. and cant see the consequences of their direction
ThomasHC: I've got nothing against XFCE but I prefer LXDE or Gnome or KDE
ThomasHC: ryan22, true
ryan22: i like xfce cuz its so modular
ryan22: lxde somes close but its a bit ulgy and doesnt have all the utilities
ryan22: thunar does need some work
ThomasHC: ryan22, have you seen Lubuntu?
ryan22: lubuntu is eh
ryan22: mostly cuz they are using a lot of unstable software
ryan22: its a beta, and they should call it as such
ThomasHC: I tried it and it works great for me though
ThomasHC: from what I've noticed
ryan22: the problem is edge cases
ThomasHC: When you run Ubuntu, one of two things happen:
ThomasHC: It is a great, stable system and you love it
ThomasHC: It has loads of problems
ryan22: its cuz of the dev model
ThomasHC: it's been stable in my experience
ThomasHC: I first used it with Ubuntu 7.10
ryan22: just plain forking debian every 6 months is horrible idea
ryan22: because you cant test all of debian
mastertheknife: What do you think about gentoo?
ryan22: so software with bugs gets locked in the repos and is never updated
ThomasHC: It seems to have worked well, and works great for loads of people(like me)
ryan22: the base idea is sound
ryan22: but most ppl with ubuntu also use like 15 PPAs
ThomasHC: you have to admit, the canonical supported packages are usually great.
ThomasHC: the ones in universe/multiverse can have issues
ryan22: except the gnome stuff
ThomasHC: I run hybrid desktops a lot
ThomasHC: like LXDE with gnome panel or something
ryan22: sorry about posting all this forum stuff, but im lazy
ThomasHC: KDE on Ubuntu is horrible
ryan22: mastertheknife: i think they dont nearly enough testing
ThomasHC: Kubuntu sucks the big one
ryan22: its cuz none of the devs use kde
christian_lappy: for kde opensuse is the way to go
ThomasHC: but I'm talking about the kubuntu devs
ThomasHC: they have improved a lot
ThomasHC: but it still sucks
christian_lappy: ubuntu=use gnome
ryan22: the debian board is on the gnome board
ThomasHC: christian_lappy, I agree, Fedora KDE and Chakra/KDemod are nice on arch as well
ThomasHC: ryan22, on debian KDE is good
ryan22: and all the kde devs use suse, arch and gentoo
ThomasHC: in my experience
ryan22: i cant install kopete without install all of kdenet
ThomasHC: sidux is great to
ThomasHC: yeah, it's not modular
ThomasHC: but it still works well
ThomasHC: Kubuntu does not work well
ThomasHC: modular or not
ryan22: the prob is you can do that on arch
ryan22: and gentoo
ThomasHC: arch by default
ThomasHC: You can't
ThomasHC: if you use kdemod you can
ThomasHC: kdemod = kde modular
ryan22: ya i was going by what the guys were saying on that forum
ThomasHC: KDEmod works incredibly
ryan22: well i guess debian kde is more decent that i thought :P
ThomasHC: it works very well
ryan22: well the reason why ubuntu works kinda well with gnome is that they sync the releases of ubuntu with the releases of gentoo
ryan22: they dont with kde or xfce
ThomasHC: you mean gnome? lol
ryan22: lol gnome ya
ThomasHC: sync with gentoo? XD
ThomasHC: you were wrong about Gnome vs XFCE's RAM usage
ThomasHC: Gnome uses less power and only 25 or so MG more memory
ryan22: i got xfce on infinityos running with a stable 128 MB of ram
ryan22: its default around 200MB but thats cuz of deluge
ThomasHC: I got gnome running great on similar RAM on my grandfather's desktop
ThomasHC: uses 80MB RAM
ryan22: i can get xfce down to around 60 - 80 MB disabling some of the utilites
ThomasHC: you can do the same with gnome really
ryan22: but i really use xfce cuz its modular
ThomasHC: just most people don't
andar: i guess deluge uses about 40mb
ryan22: ive seen it go up to 100 MB at times
ThomasHC: Gnome is fairly modular, though it has been taking steps back, with gdm depending on half of the basic gnome desktop
andar: depends on how much cache you set
andar: and if you are runnign the daemon on the same box
ryan22: i should look into that
ryan22: i dont use the gtk interface though, just the wen interface
andar: any reason for that?
ryan22: the web interface is better anyways
ryan22: and i could get the gtk interface to work without a default user
andar: whys that?
ryan22: the interface needs to authunicate
andar: what version?
ThomasHC: it'd probably be possible to write a new GTK interface to it that uses less RAM
ryan22: i keep the latest version in my repos
andar: it needs to authenticate, but if it's run as the same user it shouldn't be a problem
ThomasHC: I wonder what Deluge's backend is like
andar: ThomasHC, ask away.. i wrote it
ryan22: but i cant have a default user in the default install of deluge
andar: ryan22, not quite sure what you mean
ThomasHC: andar, Whoa, nice! I'm going to take a guess with absolutely no knowledge of Deluge's source code and say the backend is probably imported by the GUI? as a module I mean
ThomasHC: prepares to be totally wrong in his assumption
ryan22: so i got around it by authunicating any user by putting a cookie for the web interface in /etc/skel
andar: ThomasHC, depends
ThomasHC: I'll look around the source later
RambJoe: why do people keep requesting mw2 for mac lol
ryan22: so any user automatically is authicated on infintiyOS
andar: ThomasHC, if you run classic mode it will load the core in the same program space
ThomasHC: I see
ryan22: see infinityOS doesnt have a default user, so i had to made it work automatically with any user
ThomasHC: ryan22, what do you mean exactly?
andar: ThomasHC, if you run it in daemon/client mode it won't load the core and will instead connect to a daemon
ThomasHC: ahh I see
ryan22: i tried getting the gtk interface working, but i think it generates the authication key differently for each user
andar: ryan22, then simply give the users read access to the ~/.config/deluge/auth file
ThomasHC: andar, so it would technically be possible to say, write a lighter version of the GUI using the daemon?
andar: and make sure the config dir is set somewhere readable by all
andar: and use that config dir when you startup deluge
andar: ThomasHC, yup
ryan22: but i wanted to make deluge run in an unpriviledged user
ThomasHC: Interesting, I've always been curious about the code behind deluge, I'll have to see what it is like, thanks!
andar: ryan22, then just setup a host in the hostlists.conf file and have it autoconnect with some credentials you add to the auth file
ryan22: with only write access to the config files and the bittorrent dl directory
ThomasHC: ryan22, what do you mean by that? Deluge doesn't require root access
ryan22: i wanted to run it like a service
andar: it's a bit confusing really
ryan22: like apache
andar: sure.. i run mine as the 'deluge' user
andar: with an init.d script
ThomasHC: that would be interesting
ryan22: so its always running as a daemon in an unpriviledged user
andar: then i just connect to it from my desktop's gtkui
ryan22: andar: i tried that, but the keys didnt work if the user changed
andar: what keys?
ryan22: the key the gui use to auth
andar: the password?
andar: just create one then
ryan22: the problem is though i cant do that automatically for each user
andar: so don't
ryan22: so i just used the webui :p
andar: create one for all users
ryan22: it didnt seem to work
andar: or give all users read access to the auth file
ryan22: my users seems to like the web ui better
andar: and start them with the same config folder
ryan22: cant do that
ryan22: thats a security flaw
andar: deluge-gtk -c /var/deluge
andar: chmod a+r /var/deluge/auth
ryan22: it has to be segrated
ryan22: lol sorry im using your program in a very unintended way
andar: must be
ryan22: its part of the os in infinityos
ryan22: so i secured everything up like a core service
ryan22: hell it even dls to /var/bt/
ryan22: i need to make deluge user independent for it to work on the live cd
ThomasHC: you could make a group and assign write/read access to the group, no?
andar: ryan22, no
andar: ThomasHC, yes
ThomasHC: That would work
ryan22: ThomasHC: i gave everyone write access to /var/bt/ to get around that
andar: that has nothing to do with it
andar: the save path is something entirely different
ryan22: i cant tell ubuntu how to make the user
andar: good luck
ryan22: lol sorry
ryan22: i hacked the crap out of your program
ThomasHC: itwould be interesting if you could make web uis for lots of programs
ryan22: but the hacks are all config file and settings related so the user can still upgrade freely to next version
ryan22: i tried to make it as clean as possible
ThomasHC: ryan22, I could design a GKT GUI to the web ui
ThomasHC: now THAT would be a hack, my friend
ryan22: well im looked at getting a gui for flexget
ryan22: which is also why i had to make deluge run independent of the user :p
ThomasHC: just a simple gtk.Window around a webkit.Webview and tell it to open the web ui
ThomasHC: ryan22, what is flexget exactly anywyas? link?
ryan22: trust me the stuff i was talking about above to get deluge to run user independent ly and encapsulated took me like 2 days
ThomasHC: typing correctly ftl.
ThomasHC: I imagine so
ryan22: i didnt eat...
ryan22: im not joking :P
ThomasHC: but, if you wanted, a GUI to the Web UI would be easy
ryan22: andar: btw thank you for your program. its a core part of infinityos. if it wasnt awesome, i never would have spent so much time hacking it :P
ThomasHC: ryan22, I've seen flexget before! just didn't remember is all
ryan22: oh nah the web ui running a browser if fine
ThomasHC: Either way, it would be essentially the same thing
ryan22: it actually starts up faster then the gtk+ ui :P
ThomasHC: It would be much like Mozilla's prism
ThomasHC: basically a web browser with one URL and no URL bar
ThomasHC: so like, flexget doesn't have a GUI?
ryan22: i set up all up out of the box on infinityos
ThomasHC: looks nice
ryan22: the prob is you need to edit a text file to add tv shows (i made the script for you, which is the hardest part)
ryan22: i set cron to run it every hour
ThomasHC: how does flexgit handle tv shows?
ryan22: and it keeps a sqllite database of what has been downloaded
ThomasHC: I see
ryan22: it just checks a rss feed, dls any new torrents and adds them to deluge
ryan22: it can tell deluge how and where to download them too
ThomasHC: ahh, I see, cool
ThomasHC: So basically, you just need an interface to edit the text file?
ryan22: the problem is although editing the text file is damn easy, it scares ppl
ThomasHC: YEah, for sure
ThomasHC: a GUI for it would probably be easy
ThomasHC: Hell, people would even be less scared if there was just a GTK text editor around the text file that "looked" integrated
ThomasHC: a black/white background and text scares people shitless a lot of the time
ryan22: theres the rules
ryan22: and thats about it
ryan22: it would be nice to be able to add catagories and stuff though
ryan22: but a base ui is fine for now
ThomasHC: you could probably do that, does flexget read comments?
ThomasHC: like can you do #This is a comment and I will ignore
ThomasHC: that makes it much easier
ThomasHC: rofl, always use spaces
ThomasHC: half of the kernel commits have the reason: "changed tabs to spaces"
ryan22: lol you should see some of the scripts they have devised for that purpose
ThomasHC: haha, I know, they are wild :P
ThomasHC: I dunno why any text editor uses tabs anyways
ThomasHC: I can see openoffice or abiword doing it\
ThomasHC: but not gedit or Geany or something
ThomasHC: One editor I like is Komodo Edit, but I wish it could execute my programs within itself
ryan22: i just use edit
ryan22: i dont mind vim, but i dont want to learn my text editor
ryan22: and emacs scares me
ThomasHC: Emacs is awesome
ThomasHC: I use emacs as on OS, and a way of life
ThomasHC: Vim is actually much harder than emacs
ryan22: bill joy doesnt use vi cuz its too complicated...
ThomasHC: that was in 1984
ryan22: ya they didnt have vim back then
programble: vi just sucks
ryan22: just 345454 different vis
programble: vim sucks too
ThomasHC: they all suck
ThomasHC: emacs is ok but
ThomasHC: it's huge
ThomasHC: I'd rather just use nano
Midler: ThomasHC: are you coding in nano?
ThomasHC: I code in nano quite a bit
Nevtus: it's better to know vi(m) since it's in pretty much every *nix setup by default
Nevtus: it's also just better :P
ryan22: the new nano even has syntax hightlighting
mastertheknife: I actually like kwrite in KDE4
ThomasHC: I know vi(m)
ryan22: its not in infinityos or ubuntu...
ThomasHC: do I enjoy using it? no
ThomasHC: I'd rather use cat, echo, and sed
ryan22: lol ed
Nevtus: ryan22: yes it is. install a fresh version of ubuntu and type vi. it will be there
programble: its the standard text editor
ThomasHC: it is there
ryan22: my friend went through like a hour long rant about how he couldn't use his precious vim on a standard install of ubuntu
mastertheknife: vi is powerful but definitely not noob friendly
ryan22: he didnt have sudo access :p
ThomasHC: but yeah
ThomasHC: vi is painful
Nevtus: ryan22: vi is always present and useable. If you've ever remote admin'd any *nix boxes this is very useful
Nevtus: however if given the chance it's better to replace it with vim
ryan22: im not sure if it is on base ubuntu
ryan22: maybe its just vim
ryan22: i know i dont use vim, just cause than i would have to include emacs
ThomasHC: I think vi is a symlink to vim
ThomasHC: ryan22, huh?
ThomasHC: vim doesnt require emacs
ryan22: but if i included one over the other, then the fanboys will bitch
ryan22: its another reason why i use xfce
ryan22: other then the fact i dislike both gnome and kde :P
Nevtus: uhh. what does a DE have to do with anything?
ThomasHC: who cares about fanboys bitching
ThomasHC: tell them they need to learn how to use apt
ryan22: i do cuz tehn i have to tell them to use apt
adrian_broher: ubuntu ships with vi
ryan22: i was pretty sure it didnt. oh well
ThomasHC: ryan22, ubutnu even ships with vim lol
Nevtus: every decent *nix ships with vi
ThomasHC: and that doesn't spark debate
ryan22: well i didnt remove it
ThomasHC: I should try LFS
ryan22: i justed didnt explicitly include it
ThomasHC: LFS with a custom package manager sounds nice
ThomasHC: I've written a few package managers actually
ThomasHC: out of boredom
ryan22: i have too
ThomasHC: ryan22, why? I thought infinity used apt?
ryan22: oh i though you siad packages :p
ThomasHC: oh lol XD
ThomasHC: yeah I was working on my own distro
ThomasHC: still kind of am
ThomasHC: but got more int ocoding
ThomasHC: still kind of working on it
ryan22: i mostly stopped making packages cuz i realized everyone had already packaged everything on their PPAs anyways
ThomasHC: ryan22, just steal the packages from the ppa
ryan22: so i just asked the maintainers if they could use their packages
ryan22: and everyone said yes
ThomasHC: Also, it would probably be more useful to make your own apt repo
ThomasHC: if you have the hosting
ThomasHC: rather than use ppas
ryan22: and i bumped up into the launchpad limit for number of emails sent. so i stopped asking cuz everyone said go ahead anyways
ryan22: i like ppas cuz it takes me 3 clicks to copy a package
ThomasHC: but you could make a script for it :P
ryan22: and launchpad is a REALLY good dev filter
ThomasHC: yeah it is
ThomasHC: I make scripts for everything
ryan22: man the number of time i had to sign crap with my gpg key
ryan22: and dont get me started on pbuilder
ThomasHC: I used reprepro for my repo
ryan22: i need to use launchpad to maintain a connection with the ubuntu community as well. cuz right now they dont like me all that much
Nevtus: ... what did you do?
ryan22: maybe i shouldnt have used the word fork... branch is more appropriate in hindsight
Nevtus: abandon X11? why?
^CruX^: and replace it with...?
ryan22: its flawed. you cant v-sync two apps using pure X11
ryan22: i dont know yet
ryan22: thats far into the future
ryan22: im focusing mostly on replacing alsa with OSS4 in 2.0
ryan22: i do have an awesome name for the X11 replacement though
ryan22: but seriosuly though
Nevtus: I can understand why they don't like you now :P
ryan22: x11 is bleh for vids cuz the v-syncing limitation
ryan22: ya i was a dramatic i suppose
ryan22: but i did post my ideas on the mailing list to see if they would bite
ThomasHC: ryan22, you are going to have fun replacing X11
ThomasHC: especially when you realize GTK won't even work
ryan22: lol well the problem is mostly the queueing
ryan22: X11 can only v-sync one program at once
ryan22: the way around it is to use opengl for everything
ryan22: but then you dont get hardware acceleration like VDPAU
ryan22: i just disabled compositing
ThomasHC: A lot of the problems you seem to have are very specific to certain hardware
ryan22: and tell ppl to stay the hell away from compiz if they want to watch videos
ThomasHC: it's fairly obvious most people don't have issues with ubunt ulike you
ThomasHC: it runs great for many
ThomasHC: ryan22, It works great for me :P
^CruX^: ThomasHC: ack...
ryan22: i dont think va-api works well with v-sync either for the same reason
ThomasHC: ^CruX^, hmm?
ryan22: well im pushing ubuntu to its limits
^CruX^: ThomasHC: I just wanted to enforce your point... nevermind :p
ThomasHC: ahh ok :P
ryan22: so i needed to change it
ryan22: ubuntu as is does not work for video
ryan22: and my distro is all about video
ThomasHC: ryan22, works great for me
^CruX^: Video in which way? Do you mean any kind of moving output?
ryan22: HD video
ThomasHC: works for loads of people
ryan22: xv and vdpau for the v-sync reasons
^CruX^: ryan22: As far as i know, vdpau works kinda great
ryan22: in lucid
ryan22: infinityos uses karmic
ThomasHC: ryan22, I highly advice you to include utilities to easy enable/disable pulseaudio in your distro
ThomasHC: PulseAudio is a great program
ryan22: i would have no problem doing so
ThomasHC: and also, Alsa works on far more hardware than OSS
ryan22: it does
ryan22: im still mulling over the oss thing
ThomasHC: I advise easy choice
ryan22: thats the direction im aiming for too
ThomasHC: I would say alsa and pulseaudio...perhaps re-basing on lucid, it's an LTS after all
ThomasHC: and Lucid works far better than Karmic
ryan22: roadmap: http://infinityos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28
ryan22: its coming
^CruX^: mplayer-mt is great!
ryan22: just the only issues that would be fixed by upgrading to lucid are some problems with older radeon cards
^CruX^: Nearly as good as CoreAVC
ThomasHC: ryan22, more than that
ryan22: everything else has been backported
ThomasHC: Karmic broke a few things
ThomasHC: if you want stability, it's pretty much excepted to use an LTS
ryan22: in fact i tried to backport the newer radoen drivers but they like require a newer kernel, xserver and mesa
ryan22: i was going to set up a PPA for it, but i gave up
ryan22: karmic works
ryan22: and infinityos 1.0 is on rc5 so i cant change it now
ThomasHC: I still say rebasing to Lucid for 1.1
ryan22: 2.0 and 1.1 will be about the same thing
ThomasHC: I might try compiling KDE modular
ThomasHC: ryan22, if it's small changed, make it 1.x, but you should be more innovative with 2.0
^CruX^: ryan22: I found this in your forums "The open-source Radeon drivers have greatly impressed me." What do you mean by this? Is there anything about Video-Acceleration?
ryan22: just 1.1 will use karmic and will be released a bit eariler
ThomasHC: ^CruX^, they work for me :P
ryan22: ^Crux^: i meant that the xv output wasn't washed out and was actually v-syncing
ryan22: im easily impressed, especially after using the fglrx drivers
^CruX^: ryan22: okay, i've got an X1600XT which also works as is is supposed to work
^CruX^: But its really, really slow and it doesnt accelerate h264 at all...
ryan22: that card should run fine
ThomasHC: it should be known the opensoruce drivers are much better
ryan22: the older radeon cards dont have full hd video acceration on linux
^CruX^: ya, but im planning to buy a new monitor in a few days and i need a new card
ryan22: the fglrx drivers do have support for va-api but your card might not have support
^CruX^: Still struggling which one to buy...
ryan22: go nvidia
^CruX^: yap, it doesnt... thats the problem
ryan22: their drivers actually work
^CruX^: Maybe you could gimme a hint...
^CruX^: I've got an AMD 64 4000 and i cannot decide if i should buy a GT220 or a GT240
ThomasHC: I dunno
ThomasHC: nvidia has had more issues in my experience on irc channels/forums
^CruX^: They're both able to fully decode 1080p and Stuff
ThomasHC: join #ubuntu,#xubuntu,#kubuntu,#kde
ryan22: theres a table of all the gpus that support hd acelleration
^CruX^: ryan22: ya, i know the page and im sure that they both do 1080p at proper frame-rates
ryan22: ive never had issues with nvidia vdpau, if you use a decent mplayer build
ryan22: rvm is nice
ryan22: git is better if you can build it
^CruX^: The standard archlinux build worked great
maligor: I wish I had money for a new display too, those HP ZR24w's look sweet
ryan22: same guy who makes smplayer
ryan22: his builds might be ubuntu only
ryan22: and i think arch might use git
ryan22: as they should, svn is pure crap
maligor: svn is fine
ryan22: its about as xfree86 was before it was forked
^CruX^: hm, did you watch torvalds' talk about git?
ThomasHC: maligor, according to linus, you are butt ugly and stupid
^CruX^: Its basically 20% flaming about svn :D
ryan22: maintainers needing a huge lists of patched
ThomasHC: ^CruX^, I just referenced that
^CruX^: ThomasHC: ya, got that one :p
maligor: heh, svn would be crap for something as large as the linux kernel
maligor: but that doesn't mean it's pure crap
ryan22: jesus compiling svn MPlayer is worse than compiling the kernel due to all the patches
maligor: or rather it's more about the development model than the size
^CruX^: git is kinda complicated... but i think its great for bigger projects (like the kernel)
maligor: it's not really complicated
^CruX^: i personally think it is :p
maligor: git has a practical approach
ryan22: the problems with svn mplayer (more on the end of the page): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1234929&page=5
ryan22: distributed is just much better
ryan22: git is hard too use though
ryan22: i like bazaar
ThomasHC: I've never used bazaar
ryan22: svn and cvs just lead to politics over who gets commit access though
^CruX^: with abs even git is easy as an user... makepkg and youre done :p
ryan22: ThomasHC: its very user-oriented
maligor: I don't get it.. have you either used git?
programble: Centralized version control is kinda phased out
programble: Distributed VC like git is more popular now
ryan22: maligor: i meant svn mplayer more so than svn itself a while back there
ryan22: almost every major OSS project uses git, bazaar or mecurial
ThomasHC: I like git
ryan22: the only ones left with svn or cvs are the ones with egotistical dev teams
ThomasHC: maligor, I have
ryan22: centralized just doesnt make sense for a OSS project
^CruX^: Thats kinda why Torvalds' invented git...
ryan22: man imagine the politics if the kernel uses svn
^CruX^: We'd have a kernel release every 2 years :p
maligor: actually linus maintains the authoritative tree for linux, the politics would be the same
ryan22: its already kinda bad, with the reiser thing
maligor: it'd just be a pita to maintain
ThomasHC: ryan22, whatabout reiser?
ryan22: ya im trying to emulate the linux kernel approch with infinityos in regards to apps
ryan22: email your app, and well test it for a week
GNU\colossus: http://www.asus.de/product.aspx?P_ID=opD29qj5VZCwetPI - do you think that card's better than what the vanilla cooler/PCB design offers?
ryan22: if it installs, opens, and stays open, well push it to testing
ThomasHC: that's not a very good approach
maligor: copper cooler?
maligor: isn't the standard cooler the two slot type?
^CruX^: GNU\colossus: lol, this is the card im planning to buy, not in this version but anyways
ThomasHC: ryan22, perhaps you should test more
ThomasHC: or make an incoming repo
ryan22: ThomasHC: reiser made an awesome fs, but it took forever to get added to the kernel cuz reiser was an ass
maligor: ryan22, aha! so I shall make my malicious patches time delayed
GNU\colossus: maligor: yup. I'd just like a silent, nearly inaudible cooling solution for my gf's next graphics card
maligor: reiserfs had issues too
s_20: reiser himself had issues too......
ryan22: reiser also killed his wife, which also killed support for his fs :P
maligor: I've had catastrophic data failure with it
maligor: the two times I used it
ThomasHC: reiser3 is supposed to be under developement though
ryan22: maligor: everything gets pushed to testing and then my team tests it and then it gets pushed to stable
ThomasHC: ryan22, who all is your team?
ryan22: week long testing windows
ryan22: 3 ppl atm
ryan22: its more than enough
ThomasHC: I could help out. I'm more than willing
ryan22: no prob
ThomasHC: I have loads of free tiem hehe
ThomasHC: as in
ryan22: well anyone has access to the test repo
ThomasHC: Wake up at 11AM
ThomasHC: go to bed at........4?
ryan22: just only the core team can commit
ThomasHC: similar to git in ways
ryan22: for secutiy reasons
ryan22: not political ones
maligor: What rootkit? I didn't put it there
ryan22: lol excatly
ryan22: i only push stuff to the stable kernel too
ThomasHC: there is a guide to putting KDE 4 on CentOS 5 :P
ryan22: mostly cuz packages pushed there will be pushed to like every computer running infinityos
ryan22: centos still uses kde3?
ryan22: thats pretty stable :P
ThomasHC: be back later
Sir_Brizz: does anyone have the Loki Games version of Rune?
MPX: Sir_Brizz, what's the problem? Install errors? I don't have it
ryan22: http://tinypic.com/r/2z6xa9k/6 :P
ryan22: lol stereotypes
Sir_Brizz: MPX I want to get it but I can't find anywhere to buy itr
MPX: I see
Sleepy_Coder: I want to play L4D2 with TF2 characters.
Sleepy_Coder: Or have a TF2 conversion of L4D2 so it would look like TF2 but feel the same
andar: team zombie fortress?
RambJoe: steam for linux confirmed yet?
Tazer: Can't you get banned for posting about linux in the steam forums now?
RambJoe: can you?
RambJoe: who did?
Tazer: I dunno dude, I'm just going along by what I've heard
RambJoe: ah well they can ban me if they want
Modplan: you can get banned for talking about piracy
Modplan: not linux
Rednaxela: One probably *could* get banned while talking about linux.... if one posted in a spamish way I'd say
RambJoe: lol strict mods
RambJoe: its probably because it said banned under someones name who mentioned linux
RambJoe: but they made an offensive post in another thread
Rednaxela: Also, funny post there RambJoe, though I'd say you come off as a troll in the context of that thread
RambJoe: I'll rep JasonM
Rednaxela: Troll *and* sucking up? :P
RambJoe: lol :P
RambJoe: he has lower reps than me =/
dandel_: I need some help from someone familiar with the wine opengl source :/ (implementing a few features)
Rednaxela: Yeah, but just saying, troll+suckup = not going to leave a good impression of linux users
Rednaxela: Check #winehq dandel_? :P
dandel_: I'm in the dev channel
RambJoe: i wish you could neg on steam forums lol
RambJoe: why does that "achievements messages sexist" thread still exist...
Rednaxela: RambJoe: Ah, just read that now.... that amuses me. It would be a valid complaint if there were female models in that game, but since there's not...
xTCx: I'm going to attempt to convert chakra's packages to debs
xTCx: and install them on ubuntu
xTCx: who senses fail say aye?
programble: how do you plan to take Arch pkgs and make debs exactly?
xTCx: that's two
xTCx: programble, alien
Rednaxela: raises an AYEbrow
programble: alien does arch pkg?
xTCx: tar and dpkg --build
xTCx: I believe so
RambJoe: is virtual box the best virtual machine
xTCx: programble, either that or I'll do it manually
programble: why exactly xTCx?
Rednaxela: RambJoe, IMO it
xTCx: programble, modular KDE
xTCx: KDE on ubuntu SUCKS ASS
programble: you know
RambJoe: its really annoying how it keeps asking me to update
programble: KDEmod is DESIGNED for Arch
RambJoe: why don't they just update it in the repo
programble: i don't think it will run on anything else
Rednaxela: RambJoe, IMO it's the best free one for graphical use anyway. (Would say differently if it were headless server VMs in question)
xTCx: oh it probably will
xTCx: I mean
xTCx: they don't make many changes actually
xTCx: besides making it modular
programble: in my experience
programble: KDEmod is a bit buggy
programble: and unstable
Rednaxela: RambJoe: that's weird, I've never seen that. It's probably an issue with your distro's packaging I'd think
xTCx: not to me
Rednaxela: just knows he doesn't have that in Arch
RambJoe: A new version of VirtualBox has been released! Version 3.1.8 is available at virtualbox.org.
RambJoe: i need to get my arch set up lol
programble: ran KDEmod for a few days
Rednaxela: probably a build option or something for whether it does that or not I think RambJoe
Rednaxela: I'd suspect so anyway
programble: it was pretty crappy
RambJoe: um the link is for ubntu karmic
xTCx: not for me
xTCx: programble, I might install pacman on ubuntu
RambJoe: maybe they haven't updated it for lucid lynx
xTCx: and do it that way
programble: xTCx: good luck with that
RambJoe: ima try setting up arch again
programble: xTCx: wait, why not just RUN arch
xTCx: because I want to run ubuntu
xTCx: I LIEK IT
programble: why do you want to run shitbuntu?
RambJoe: is it normal for arch setup to use /mnt
xTCx: I LIKE IT
RambJoe: it says nothing of it in the beginners guide
xTCx: RambJoe, what do you mean?
programble: RambJoe: yes....... it mounts your drive there...
Rednaxela: RambJoe: Yes, that's what it does
programble: then installs everything to /mnt
ryan22: xTCx, if you can get kdemod working on ubuntu, ill make a separate repo for it to be used on infinityos
RambJoe: as it tries to read all the config files from mnt
Rednaxela: By default anyway, there might be a way to change it
RambJoe: but they don't exist there
programble: RambJoe: um... which config files?
xTCx: ryan22, nice!
xTCx: ryan22, if it works at all it will be very hacked at first lol
programble: has installed arch many times
RambJoe: the ones in "configure system" on arch setup
programble: RambJoe: those exist.
ryan22: well it would be a separate PPA
RambJoe: not in /mnt on mine
xTCx: ryan22, yeah
ryan22: optional until its stable
RambJoe: they exist but not in /mnt :S
programble: RambJoe: if they don't, you're doing something wrong
xTCx: ryan22, I never could figure out ppas
Rednaxela: /mnt is the default mountpoint of the target drive in the Arch installer anyway
programble: those files are put there when it installs everything
RambJoe: oh i know what i did
programble: what did you do?
RambJoe: i chrooted to / as i wanted to stop it using /mnt
ryan22: xTCx: ill show you the art one day. its designed to be as complicated as possible
programble: really, why?
RambJoe: because i was confused i thought it wasn't meant to use /mnt lol
RambJoe: right do i have to put all the folders on different partitions
programble: dont have to
RambJoe: should i just do auto
xTCx: ryan22, Yeah, I've tried to make one but....it's really not easy and I became impatient lol
programble: RambJoe: it is reccommended to have at least separate / and /home partitions
Rednaxela: If you do auto it puts /boot and /home in separate partitions RambJoe
programble: but you can put them all on one if you want
ryan22: its a good filter. if youre making packages it better damn well be hard to release them to make sure you know what youre doing
programble: doesn't have a /boot
Rednaxela: Heh, I personally consider separating /boot and /, more useful than /home and /
xTCx: ryan22, yeah I guess
Rednaxela: Since I'm fairly prone to wanting to use root filesystems too new for grub
mastertheknife: programble: /boot is the kernel's safe home :)
programble: mastertheknife: on my / partition
mastertheknife: I actually have /boot, / and /home
mastertheknife: /boot being ext2, / and /home being ext4
Sleepy_Coder: good man.
Sleepy_Coder: I wish I could try zfs though
xTCx: I found a program that can convert arch packages to deb
xTCx: that's the first step I guess
Sleepy_Coder: I hear it's only a comfortable filesystem on solaris and freebsd
programble: uses ext3
Sleepy_Coder: On Linux, because of licensing issues, it's through fusefs
xTCx: writes python script to automate process and starts cloning the kdemod repo
Rednaxela: I didn't do a separate / and /home because I didn't want to bother with the annoyance that would ensue if I had one getting full and not being able to resize easily. LVM helps it somewhat, but still
programble: has heard too many stories of data loss with ext4
xTCx: programble, that was like a year+ ago
Rednaxela: ext4 doesn't have data loss issues with current code and default settings
programble: yeah, and i made these partitions a year+ ago
RambJoe: well both my 1.5tb and 1tb NTFS drivers have lost their data
programble: lol NTFS
programble: did you DEFRAG?
Rednaxela: One thing I'm thinking about some day is the option of using btrfs, and using separate btrfs subvolumes, based in the same partition, for root and home
RambJoe: um i dunno think windows 7 did automatically
RambJoe: but i barely ran windows
xTCx: ryan22, I installed pacman on ubuntu just for testing. I'm gonna install kdemod with that and then try to make debs
programble: have fun
RambJoe: can you install debs on arch
ryan22: i guess you could use smart
programble: not without some hacking at least
xTCx: ryan22, maybe
xTCx: but I prefer to do it this way
RambJoe: wonder if steam linux will be .deb :(
programble: besides, why would you even want to
ryan22: programble: the love of pure pain :P
programble: there's that
xTCx: that's me
Rednaxela: I've always found that .deb/.rpm builds that aren't distribution-official to be a pain. They just break too terribly when things change
Rednaxela: Thus for things that can't be compiled from source... i prefer self-contained /opt binary installs that have no frequently-breaking external dependencies... heh
programble: why can't compile from source?
Rednaxela: " wonder if steam linux will be .deb :("
Rednaxela: Doubt Steam will release Source ;)
Daekdroom: I like PPAs..
Rednaxela: Talking about those and similar issues
Daekdroom: Avulse .debs not targeted at a version? freaks me as much as svn and git
RambJoe: how would it work then if they dont relase source
xTCx: here comes the pain!
xTCx: ryan22, It will probably be easier for me to compile KDE
xTCx: downloads kde source code
ryan22: Rednexela: PPAs at least require you to build using pbuilder. i don't trust straight .debs downloads from websites
Rednaxela: ryan22, Yeah, that's basically my point
Rednaxela: xTCx: I remember when I used Gentoo on a 200MHz box... it took a full week to build KDE
ryan22: .debs made with debuild and checkinstall are the icky
RambJoe: is gentoo good
xTCx: Rednaxela, rofl, I've heard those stories before
Rednaxela: Eh, I used to like Gentoo but I wouldn't recommend it anymore
xTCx: I might do LFS tonight
RambJoe: is it hard to set up
Rednaxela: RambJoe: Only if you want to compile everything from source without doing LFS.... most advantages of Gentoo are had by Arch, without most of the disadvantages, heh
Rednaxela: praises rolling release models
RambJoe: oh i know why my drives are parittioned
RambJoe: arch installer did that before lol, i thought resetingg the machine resetted that
RambJoe: should i use ext4 on all partitions then
Azalyn: /opt is definitely the right place for something like steam
Azalyn: i'll be pissed if they don't put it there, or at least let you choose the install location.
RambJoe: yeah they need to let you
RambJoe: as some people like putting their games on other harddrives
RambJoe: actaully on linux you could put /opt as another drives couldn't you?
Azalyn: that is exactly what /opt is for. /opt is pretty much the only thing on linux that even remotely resembles C:\Program Files on windows.
Azalyn: and yeah, you can put any directory on any drive.
Azalyn: you just mount a drive to any dir.
Kano: RambJoe: it would be more logical when it would be installed in the user folder as it needs write access
Kano: not in /opt
Azalyn: they should put configuration in the user's home directory.
Kano: but steam updates itself all the time
RambJoe: um maybe i should have made /home my other drive
Kano: same for firefox
Kano: when you extract it in home it updates itself
Azalyn: even windows now doesn't let anything write directly to program files without doing the whole UAC thing.
RambJoe: i thought steam updates automaticall
ryan22: the games could be put in /var
ryan22: with the excauable in /home
Azalyn: ew.. why var?
RambJoe: finally we can have games on a different drive to steam
ryan22: cause its where user-modifible library and config files go
RambJoe: you could always mount a drive to /opt/steam/steamapps amirite?
Azalyn: an entire game goes far beyond a config file or user-modifiable library though...
ryan22: its not excutable
RambJoe: was there any hints at this in the linux client files?
ryan22: its just a library file steams uses
Azalyn: as for using ext4 on all partitions... heh, well, that's problematic.
Azalyn: ext4 is a good filesystem, but the problem is that a lot of packages out there have broken behavior.
Modplan: LGP games install to your home by default
Azalyn: they do un-posix-y things that break on pretty much any filesystem that uses delayed allocation.
RambJoe: ah well its only a virtual machine
Modplan: and they have update functionality
Azalyn: like gnome/kde seem to do it for a lot of their config files
RambJoe: do filesystems even act different on virtual machines
Azalyn: yes, they do.
Azalyn: different than eachother i mean.
RambJoe: um yup
Azalyn: they shouldn't act different just from being in a vm though (like ext4 native partition vs ext4 in a virtual partition)
RambJoe: nothing in /mnt/etc/rc.conf -.-
RambJoe: should i cp /etc/* /mnt/etc/
Azalyn: but ext3 vs ext4 will be different than eachother in all situations usually, whether in a vm or not.
Azalyn: in theory if you always power down your machine properly, and/or have a UPS. you should be fine with ext4 even given the broken packages that don't use it
RambJoe: there is not etc in /mnt
Azalyn: and worst case scenario, you can manually type 'sync' to make sure any important data you've written is synched to disk
Azalyn: the latest versions of ext4 have some magic hacks in there to try and support even the broken apps out there that don't work right.
Azalyn: according to the almighty all-knowing "phoronix test suite" though, apparently ext4 has been getting worse and worse, but i'm inclined to think that maybe the test suite itself is broken. :)
RambJoe: sould grub be installed in /boot?
Azalyn: or that it's performing tests that trigger the "magic hacks" that force syncing to disk.
Azalyn: RambJoe: uh, i guess. or rather, /boot/grub is where the stage tarballs and config file and so on are located.
Azalyn: the actual bootloader itself gets installed to your mbr afterwards
RambJoe: no matter which partition i chose
RambJoe: i get
RambJoe: Error: Missing/Invalid root device:
Azalyn: even thought Rednaxela recommended against gentoo. it might be wise to try doing a gentoo install at least once or something.
Azalyn: since you seem to be a bit green at this.
Azalyn: gentoo is good to gain some experience.
RambJoe: isn't gentoo harder than arch
Azalyn: since you do everything manually
Daekdroom: Doesn't that mean it's even easier to break the system?
Azalyn: he's doing it in a vm.
Azalyn: to make an omelet, you need to break a few eggs. ;)
Daekdroom: Well, it seems to me that doing gentoo on a VM misses it whole point.. xD
Azalyn: well, in this case, i'm suggesting it for the learning experience.
RambJoe: could this problem have anything to do with stuff not being in /mnt?
Daekdroom: Doesn't sound a bad idea to me given how scared I am of SVN and Git
Azalyn: i would think someone who is doing a gentoo install, and reading the gentoo handbook in detail, probably wouldn't be asking questions like "where do i install grub"
Rednaxela: Azalyn: Oh I think a gentoo install is educational for sure, I just wouldn't want to use it as my main install anymore :)
Daekdroom: What is stage 3 for?
Azalyn: /mnt isn't supposed to have anything except for a few directories like maybe "cdrom" and the like.
Azalyn: and by default they aren't mounted to anything
Azalyn: /etc is it's own top level directory.
RambJoe: this is confusing as the arch setup tries to find everythign in /mnt when it doesn't exist there lol
Azalyn: well, if it mounted the livecd there...
Azalyn: then it would make sense.
RambJoe: but shouldn't all that data be on the livecd :S
Azalyn: yes, but in theory it would have to be mounted.
Azalyn: not really sure what you're currently doing.. or how you're going about it, or how far you are in the process.
Azalyn: and the last time i installed arch was like 2 years ago maybe...
RambJoe: um just gave up on grub
RambJoe: now its stuck like this
Azalyn: the whole guide on one page.
Azalyn: and it links you to the install discs and what not. so no problem.
RambJoe: after i booted from /boot/vmlinuz26
Azalyn: heh, maybe you specified the wrong path
RambJoe: i'll start again
Azalyn: if /boot is it's own partition, then in grub you wouldn't say /boot/blah
RambJoe: but mounting the ISo
Rednaxela: Heh, VirtualBox: The most risk free way to learn to install
Azalyn: you'd say 'blah
RambJoe: instead of buring to disc lol
Azalyn: Rednaxela: a second box also works :D
RambJoe: so i just made it even more confusing lol
Rednaxela: RambJoe: Shouldn't make a difference, except that mounting the ISO will have better performance
RambJoe: i will do that then :)
Rednaxela: and yeah, that about /boot is fun to remember
RambJoe: where did my iso go lol
RambJoe: ah found
xTCx: got pacman running on ubuntu
Azalyn: in practice though, they usually symlink boot to .
Azalyn: xTCx: ....... why..?
xTCx: Azalyn, Bored, so I'ma install kdemod
xTCx: Azalyn, and I like pain
Rednaxela: xTCx: Heh... be careful with two package systems at once... since they won't detect conflicts and dependencies between the two
Azalyn: you're all BORING me. so i'm going to go take an eight hour (or so) nap.
xTCx: Rednaxela, I know :P
xTCx: begins installing kdemod
Azalyn: watches xTCx's computer explode
xTCx: Azalyn, I have to reinstall anyways
xTCx: it should be ok
xTCx: I'm removing KDE/QT
xTCx: ok it's downloading
xTCx: I commented out the arch default repos
xTCx: i only got a few dep errors and ubuntu's repos had most of them
Daekdroom: It doesn't feel right to mix a rolling release with ubuntu's repo o.o
xTCx: I'll brb
Daekdroom: Will you brb? :P
RambJoe: what should /dev/sda be mounted to
dashcloud: probably / (it is your first hard drive right?)
RambJoe: but /dev/sda1 goes to /
RambJoe: so should /dev/sda go there too
Azalyn: you don't mount /dev/sda ...
RambJoe: oh didn't think so but i have to do that to set a file type in the arch isntall
Azalyn: you don't mount drives. you mount partitions
ThomasHC: that didn't work
ThomasHC: stupid kstartupconfig
Daekdroom: Is 192MB RAM enough for a Gentoo VM?
ThomasHC: should be
ThomasHC: but compiling in a VM :O
Daekdroom: I'm doing it for the experience.
Daekdroom: and for the lulz too
Daekdroom: I'm free to break it trying whatever I want
Daekdroom: Every noob's dream
Daekdroom: Oh lord. No bootsplash.
Daekdroom: Actually, it feels good to see the text scrolling..
ThomasHC: I'm going to install arch from my ubuntu install
ThomasHC: using a chroot
ThomasHC: I have to build the chroot first...
ThomasHC: fun :P
RambJoe: wait a minute
RambJoe: why is /dev/sda1 mounted to /mnt -.-
RambJoe: what that explain my problems lol
ThomasHC: I'm installing arch
ThomasHC: from ubuntu
ThomasHC: in a chroot
ThomasHC: this is very interesting
ThomasHC: it seems to give me more control
ThomasHC: because I can google things
ThomasHC: shouldnt have to thoughgh
ThomasHC: installed it a thousand times
RambJoe: ThomasHC, is it right if /dev/sda1 is mounted on /mnt
RambJoe: and /dev/sda2 on /mnt/boot etc
ThomasHC: is /dev/sda1 the proposed / ?
ThomasHC: and is /dev/sda2 the proposed /boot ?
RambJoe: its the arch setup, it seems it mounts everything to /mnt
RambJoe: when i configure the block stuff
RambJoe: wierd it does that seeing as it doesn't put anything in the /mnt drives
ThomasHC: that should be right
ThomasHC: it will install all of the packages to /mnt as the root
ThomasHC: I'm doing the same thing, just manually
RambJoe: but when its done will it still be in mnt
ThomasHC: the packages? the packages will form a new rootfs
ThomasHC: and once the install is done
ThomasHC: you can reboot
RambJoe: like will / still be /mnt/ and will /boot be /mnt/boot
RambJoe: and should i copy all the files from / to /mnt
ThomasHC: you are on the installer right?
ThomasHC: you dont have to manually do anything
ThomasHC: just let the installer do it's thing
RambJoe: yeah but thats the problem
RambJoe: it tries to find the config files etc
RambJoe: in /mnt/etc
ThomasHC: what do you mean?
RambJoe: but they are actually in /etc
RambJoe: the setup
RambJoe: you know step 6, configure system
ThomasHC: the config files should be in /mnt/etc
RambJoe: with like /etc/rc.conf
RambJoe: they're not
RambJoe: they're in /etc
ThomasHC: are you sure?
ThomasHC: normally, the arch installer knows what it is doing
ThomasHC: so I just advise you to let it do it's thing
RambJoe: well when i look at the files with nano
RambJoe: they are all empty
ThomasHC: have you completed step 6?
RambJoe: um every file is empty
ThomasHC: I would restart the install
RambJoe: i've done that loads lol
ThomasHC: you did something wrong
ThomasHC: follow the beginners guide
ThomasHC: I'm not sure then
RambJoe: what could have i done :S
ThomasHC: read the beginners guide?
ThomasHC: checked out #archlinux ?
RambJoe: the beginnners guide doesn't meantion mnt
RambJoe: what if i copied all the files into mnt
ThomasHC: uhh you can try
RambJoe: what would the wild card be
RambJoe: for copying all of / except mnt
ThomasHC: just copy each individual file
ThomasHC: the config files
RambJoe: but i think why it keeps failing is it needs all the other files
ThomasHC: that's why you copy them
ThomasHC: cp /etc/ /mnt/etc/
RambJoe: what about cp / /mnt
RambJoe: or would that like cause some infinite loop problem
ThomasHC: that would be overkill
RambJoe: as it would keep repeating the mnt bit
RambJoe: what if i mounted the cd drive to /mnt?
ryan22: im not sure if any of you are canadian, but a member of the cabinet just got the canadian DMCA toned right down: http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5080/125/
RambJoe: i hate the arch installer -.-
ThomasHC: it hates you too
RambJoe: i know :(
ThomasHC: #archlinux ?
ThomasHC: try there
ThomasHC: it's not as bad as debian IRC
RambJoe: they ignored me
ThomasHC: in debian IRC
ThomasHC: they'd flame you
ThomasHC: and DDoS you
programble: arch installer is fuck easy
programble: just follow the guide
RambJoe: but it hates me lol
programble: you n00b
ThomasHC: programble, it depends on how good you look
RambJoe: the guide doesn't mention /mnt
ThomasHC: programble, fuck you, you are a n00b too
programble: RambJoe: DONT WORRY ABOUT IT
programble: WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT /mnt????????
programble: ThomasHC: I have installed arch several times
ThomasHC: programble, I have installed it several hundred times
RambJoe: because the installer makes everything to mnt
ThomasHC: I'm serious
RambJoe: but the files it needs aren't there
programble: WHY NOT?
programble: cuz YOU fucked with it?
RambJoe: i dunno what i did
programble: just follow the damn guide to the letter
programble: works out fine
RambJoe: like /etc and stuff isn't in /mnt
programble: well thats a huge problem
programble: that is obviously your own fault
programble: so the installer doesn't hate you
ThomasHC: RambJoe, have you installed the packages?
programble: its just getting revenge
programble: for when you raped it
RambJoe: yeah i did but i have to keep starting over
ryan22: lol maybe you should try this in a vm first
RambJoe: i am lol
ryan22: lol im doing a LFS build for my thesis so maybe i should try out arch sometime, just as practice
programble: go down the list in order and dont touch anything else
programble: ryan22: arch is piss easy...
RambJoe: that is pretty much what i was doing
programble: maybe not for ubun...
programble: RambJoe: pretty much?
ryan22: well i kind of have partitioned out my hd and installed my bootloader manually
ryan22: so its shouldn't be too bad for me i guess
RambJoe: um actaulyl except i mounted a partition to /boot not /var, as the installer said i should mount something to /boot but the wiki didn't tell me to
ryan22: eh this why you get 10 different sources
ryan22: btw i find the documentation for arch usually awesome
ryan22: much better than ubuntu's
ryan22: and much more organized than gentoo's
programble: RambJoe: waitwut
ryan22: RambJoe: like 10 different guides. cuz odds are at least one skipped something that you wont find obvious
ryan22: and like keep in tabs in firefox and follow each one
ryan22: and make sense of the differences yourself
programble: arch you just do the beginners guidwe
ryan22: keep in mind i am used to ubuntu :P
ThomasHC: I am used to...linux
ThomasHC: I am running a ubuntu/arch hybrid atm
programble: the arch taste good
ThomasHC: could never get KDE to start...
programble: the ubuntu taste like shit
ryan22: ThomasHC: its a pigeonrat
ThomasHC: ryan22, hmm?
ryan22: on its belly :P
ryan22: simpsons ref
ThomasHC: RambJoe, why the FUCK are you using the official install guide?
ThomasHC: I dont think anyone understands that shit
programble: use beginners guide
ThomasHC: just use the beginners guide
RambJoe: but that didn't help lol
RambJoe: it didn't explain the mnt shit
ryan22: i do...
programble: RambJoe: cuz you dont fucking need to know the mnt shit
ThomasHC: ryan22, it's not very efficient
programble: thats why its not explained
ryan22: well if you understand what the commands actually do
ryan22: its pretty good
ThomasHC: ryan22, I do understand
RambJoe: i said before though the files it needs aren't in mnt, like /mnt/etc/rc.conf doesn't exist
ThomasHC: "hardly anyone"
ryan22: thats thats like a pretty big requirement :P
ThomasHC: ryan22, I'm manually installing arch atm
ryan22: trying a making a live cd via remastersys via dist mode
ThomasHC: I have
ryan22: and making sure all your customizations are in tact and dont fuck shit
ThomasHC: ryan22, I was using remasterys in the Ubuntu Gutsy days
programble: RambJoe: then you did something wrong
ThomasHC: ryan22, how long have you been using linux?
ryan22: ive been unix for quite some time
ryan22: but linux h-core, since around january
ryan22: i have a mac
programble: can't remember how long
programble: hasnt been all that long
ThomasHC: unix =! os x
programble: i be fast learner though
ThomasHC: programble, same
ryan22: i love telling mac fanboys that
ThomasHC: I was making my own customized ubuntu spins with custom kernels when I was 12
RambJoe: on that menu it shows /dev/sda as well lol wut
programble: ThomasHC: i was hacking VB when i was 12 lol
ryan22: and hearing them scream: http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=119566&page=8
ThomasHC: programble, lol
ryan22: i love how the old-timer unix guy complains about linux being made by "unix hobbists"
ThomasHC: I was learning python
programble: well you know
ryan22: its like guess who made your goddamn compolier and c library
programble: once i got passed the barrier that was windows
programble: i picked up speed
programble: now i am leet
ThomasHC: ryan22, they had compilers before that
ThomasHC: gnu =! linux
ThomasHC: GNU is COMPLETELY a different concept
ryan22: well does anyone really use pcc anymore
Modplan: IT'S GNU/LINUX FOR IF MY BEARD ISN'T FREE SOFTWARE
ryan22: or reg libc
ThomasHC: lol Modplan
ThomasHC: ryan22, how old are you?
RambJoe: tomorrow i will try with just swap and / partitions
programble: ryan22: /nick ryan21
ThomasHC: hands ryan22 ubuntu flavored alcohol
ThomasHC: * ryan21
programble: aw damn
ryan21: lol well where i live i could drink wehn i was 19 so :P
programble: now your nick is a different color
ThomasHC: ryan21, lol, well I'm american :P
programble: ThomasHC: by ubuntu flavored, you mean shit?
ThomasHC: and programble is a poser
ThomasHC: aka canadian
ThomasHC: programble, duh
programble: dont insult canada
programble: legal drinking age in quebec is 18
Modplan: who else will we blame?
ThomasHC: Modplan, exactly
programble: thats the only reason qubec is good
ThomasHC: programble, but if you arent french they shoot you
ryan21: good joke: what's the difference between canadians and americans?
ryan21: we like to share
programble: or gang bang
ryan21: and don't get sued for it
ThomasHC: and most of them are only french 200 years down the line
programble: french guys are ugly
ryan21: man i once went to a small town quebec town
programble: french girls are ok now
programble: but in 10 years
programble: they will be ugly whores
ryan21: i kept the phone book
ryan21: its hilarious cuz each page is a single name
ryan21: they were like all related
ryan21: and like literally looked the same
ryan21: not that i have anything against quebec
ryan21: montreal is awesome
ryan21: and quebec city is beautiful
Modplan: everbody looks the same to me, regardless of race, nationality or gender
ryan21: eh not really
ryan21: i like colour and vareity
ThomasHC: ryan21, where you from?
ryan21: thunder bay
ryan21: but i live in peterborough, which is torontoish
ryan21: i come from canadian siberia
programble: lives in a suburb of montreal
ryan21: ThomasHC: you?
ryan21: programble: montreal looks great from the via rail train
ThomasHC: Exact opposite
ryan21: heh you get all our old ppl
ryan21: and canadian geese
programble: stupid migrators
ThomasHC: ryan21, I live on the georgia/florida border
ThomasHC: so we just got rednecks
programble: have to quack about it
ryan21: they shit like dogs too
ryan21: and hiss at you
programble: QUACK QUACK WE BE MIGRATIN QUACK
programble: oh yeah
programble: that happened
ryan21: those things are scary
programble: went to canada's wonderland recently
programble: was eatin some DQ right
programble: in a little place with tables
programble: and some geese walk in
programble: so one of my friends goes up to one
programble: and it hissed
programble: those things are evil
ryan21: the lil babies are so cute
programble: those black birds with the red tips on their wings
programble: holy fuck
ryan21: but like stay the fuck away cuz they will attack
programble: they hang around amusement parks and attack gingers
ryan21: damn gingers
ThomasHC: ryan21, programble is one
programble: fuckin gingers
programble: soulless fuckers
programble: those birds
programble: they fuckin want to kill us
programble: it came at my head
programble: if i hadnt been wearing a hat
programble: but now ive figured them out
programble: i have developed reflexes to them now
programble: so i was sitting at a table
programble: i turn around
ryan21: you need this to live in canada btw
programble: (this all happens in slow motion in my memory)
ryan21: were ones with nature
programble: and see this bird
programble: on top of the garbage can
programble: it takes off
programble: and just as it does
ThomasHC: ryan21, I live around 15 lakes
programble: i pull a matrix move
programble: and duck
ThomasHC: and there is a swamp 20 minutes from here
programble: and it passes an inch over my head
ThomasHC: we have had alligators in my front yard, ryan21
programble: and into the tree in front of me
ryan21: man you have no idea how many times ive been asked about igloos by goddamn minnisodians
ThomasHC: ryan21, has your igloo melted yet?
ThomasHC: I here's it's getting warm up ther
ryan21: no we dont live in igloos, we are like a 30 min drive from the border (thunder bay)
ryan21: its lime 30*C
programble: if i did
programble: it would melt
Modplan: ryan21 do you fish through holes in ice?
ThomasHC: a low sumer temp here is 75 F at night, ryan21
programble: it was fuckin 32 degrees celsius the other day
programble: not your igloo weather
ryan21: though back home it was like -35*C during xmas
ryan21: my firends iphone forze over and never worked again
programble: ryan21: ah, nice
ThomasHC: ryan21, holy shit
ThomasHC: it hardly ever gets below 0 C/32 F here
ryan21: it takes our cars (back home) like 5 min to heat up enough to actually start in the winter
programble: -30 is a nice breeze lol
programble: im kidding
programble: -30 is death
ryan21: it is
ryan21: you walk outside and your nose freezes
programble: love that feeling
ThomasHC: has never experienced it
ThomasHC: but then again
programble: dont have to blow your nose anymore
programble: its frozen!
ryan21: and then it starts melting due to sciondensation
ThomasHC: farthest north I've been is Baltimore, Mayland or Youngstown, Ohio
ryan21: and you get like water all over your neck warmer
ryan21: annoying as hell
programble: neck warmers
programble: they barely even warm your neck
ryan21: i hate those things
programble: i g2g
programble: cya tomorrow
ryan21: but ya i mock people from toronto when they say its cold :P
ryan21: ThomasHC: so have you gotten kdemod to work yet?
ThomasHC: I gave up
ThomasHC: I came to the conclusion that installing kdemod with pacman on ubuntu was probably not a good idea
ryan21: well it would be a good idea to get the debian guys to look at what they did
ThomasHC: just use their packages
ThomasHC: that works
ryan21: well if you wanna to make a ppa and backport kde from debian, im not going to stop you
ThomasHC: I'ma TRY
ThomasHC: it wouldn't really be backporting
ThomasHC: downgrading? mhm
ThomasHC: I wonder how I could make it more modular though
ThomasHC: I'd need to compile it
ThomasHC: I'll ask the chakra guys how they did it
ThomasHC: I've talked to them a few times
ryan21: the debian guys seem to like to like me too so i could help
ryan21: mostly cuz i hate ubuntu as much as they do ;)
ryan21: i try to help out on the debian irc channel
ThomasHC: debian irc is a horrid place
ThomasHC: or was the last time I visited
ryan21: well i try to be helpful
ThomasHC: have they stopped the flaming, n00b calling, refusal of help, and ddoses?
ryan21: some of the guys just make things needless complicated though
ryan21: i think
ryan21: i havent been ddosed
ThomasHC: hmm I asked on the chakra dev channel
ThomasHC: awaiting a response
ryan21: oh man...
ryan21: ThomasHC: haha
ThomasHC: ryan21, http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080718134815/uncyclopedia/images/2/24/BillGatesUbuntuLinux.png
ryan21: "This article best viewed with Emacs, if you have at least 8 TiB of RAM and can wait for it to load."
ryan21: OMG the "False Prophet Stallman"
ryan21: Users of Vim, a new version of vi written by Raptor Jesus partly because of the blasphemous Roman Catholic version of vi, but mostly because it can be used to instantly kill any Emacs user within 20 yards, are not held by the churches' ridiculous traditions, and are therefore 10 times as productive as anyone else.\
ryan21: lol editor wars...
ThomasHC: ryan21, I'm curious, why do you hate gnome?
ryan21: i love the gnome apps
ryan21: i dont find the gnome wm all that configurable
ThomasHC: it is
ThomasHC: if you know where to look :P
ThomasHC: gconf, my friend
ryan21: xfce is just much cleaner design
ThomasHC: I dislike XFCE
ryan21: and gconf is registry blasphemy
ThomasHC: it looks chilidish, clunky
ThomasHC: ryan21, pretty sure xfce uses it too
ThomasHC: at least partly
ryan21: it uses plain old text files like god intended
ThomasHC: gconf is a very, very nice thing
ThomasHC: those are slow and not very friendly
ThomasHC: fro ma programmers view point
ryan21: and all the config is in xml in like one directory
ThomasHC: to access gconf, it's really easy
ThomasHC: a lot easier than parsing xml
ryan21: plus i just like the utilites better
ThomasHC: I guess
ryan21: its a personall preference
ThomasHC: Gnome is overall nicer and more functional in my opinion
ThomasHC: I'm mainly a KDE user
ryan21: and im open to people making gnome and kde versions of infinityOS
ThomasHC: except for recently
ThomasHC: ryan21, I could make a kde version. or a gnome version. doesn't matter
ryan21: just like make a gnome and kde ppa and go at err
ryan21: hell if they work ill offically saction them
ryan21: mainline will be xfce though
ThomasHC: I've tried XFCE loads
ThomasHC: never really clicked with it
ryan21: its just more apporate for new users
ryan21: gnome has too much... stuff
ThomasHC: not really
ryan21: it shows you too much at once
ThomasHC: XFCE shows me not _enough_ at once
ryan21: and you cant really ustomize the panel or desktop neraly as much as xfce
ThomasHC: well like I said
ThomasHC: modify gconf
ThomasHC: lots of options
ThomasHC: they just aren't out in the open
ThomasHC: not really hidden
ryan21: i shouldn;t have to modify gconf to customize my panel and desktop...
ThomasHC: You don't have to
ThomasHC: but the thing is
ThomasHC: XFCE shows users too many options
ThomasHC: I find myself searching through twenty different apps to find out what I need
ThomasHC: with the customization
ryan21: which is why i use the gnome apps
ThomasHC: I meant the XFCE configuration apps
ryan21: theres a control panel you know
ThomasHC: I know
ThomasHC: That's what I'm talking about
ryan21: lol well its not as bad as kde
ryan21: but eh, its a personall pref
ThomasHC: KDE does a better job of it :P
ThomasHC: but you are talking to a huge KDE fan so...
ryan21: if you want kde or gnome make a ppa and go at err
ThomasHC: so, infinity doesn't use ubuntu's repos?
ryan21: it does
ThomasHC: wait brb
ThomasHC: booting arch
Tazer: so uh
Tazer: where's Valve's Mac update this week>
DonScott: points to Valvetime
ThomasHC: stupid grub
ryan21: grub 2.0 or grub 1.0
ryan21: 2.0 is a pain
ThomasHC: 2.0 is great
ThomasHC: you have problems with every modern element of the linux desktop
ThomasHC: and it's not grubs fault btw
ryan21: lol well what do you expect
ThomasHC: I dunno
ryan21: im a distro maintainer. im supposed to hate evrything
ThomasHC: I've made SEVERAL distros
ThomasHC: none of them really went anywhere but were stable
ThomasHC: seeing as I'm poor
ThomasHC: I was making distros before I could legally work!
ryan21: well im hoping mine takes off once it gets on distrowatch
ThomasHC: it may
ThomasHC: or bust
ryan21: i got like 100 download the days it was a tiny link on the weekly newsletter
ThomasHC: but it seems like Element Linux has a lot in common with infinity
ryan21: it doesn;t have focus
ryan21: and its ugly
ThomasHC: whatcha mean?
ThomasHC: no offense
ThomasHC: looks better than infinity to me
ryan21: they like turned on compiz till the last revision
ryan21: and didnt include hardware drivers
ryan21: aks jockey
ThomasHC: well I dunno
ThomasHC: never tried it :P
ryan21: i did
ryan21: it what was like cool so you like included xbmc and vlc with ubuntu
ryan21: didnt even change the fonts or anything
ThomasHC: engrish alert
ryan21: they like use firefox as the browser so you cant read the screen (firefox doesnt respect dpi settings)
ryan21: the general idea was nice
ryan21: i use epiphany cause it does
Rednaxela: Chrome annoys me in that it doesn't respect DPI either
Rednaxela: except that it's 'assumed DPI' is different still
ryan21: everything should like respect gtk+ settings
ryan21: its not all that hard
Rednaxela: Particularly considering both Chrome and FF use gtk (in parts)
ThomasHC: Firefox, by default doesn't
ThomasHC: mozilla I mean
ryan21: chrome is bit better as it respects the anti-aliasing
ThomasHC: that's why firefox is not quite integrated with Gnome
ryan21: firefox is like an os on its own
ryan21: complete with mp3 player
ryan21: *cough* songbird
ThomasHC: that's not officila though
ThomasHC: it just uses XUL
ThomasHC: which is different
ThomasHC: songbird on linux is no more
ryan21: it is a strawman
ryan21: nightingale lives though
ThomasHC: does it have a web page or anything yet?
ThomasHC: I've only heard about it
ryan21: i think it does
ryan21: i use banshee
ryan21: though i may switch. they should rewrite banshee in vala
ThomasHC: C# is nice
ryan21: c# is nice. but runtimes are bleh
Rednaxela: Hm, Vala... I once read about Vala...
ThomasHC: Mono is also very nice
Rednaxela: Looked like a neat concept... but... seemed like far too immature a project for major use
ryan21: it seems like all the mono apps are being written in it
ryan21: its become a lot more stable
ryan21: apps actually use it now
ryan21: i really like pino and deja-dup
Rednaxela: Heh, I'd trust in the credibility of Vala more in some ways if non-Gnome projects were seriously considering it
ryan21: well its mainly a replacement for mono
ThomasHC: Rednaxela, whatcha mean?
ryan21: and is heavily gobject based
Rednaxela: ThomasHC, Honestly, I don't like the idea of committing a one-platform language essentially
ThomasHC: Well, I think there is another C# implementation
ryan21: alot of pain gtk apps are using vala
ThomasHC: I like Mono, a lot
ryan21: monodevelop's debugger is crap
ThomasHC: uses nano
Rednaxela: Hm, that's one thing I'd wonder about: How well GDB works on Vala programs
ryan21: it works quite well i believe
ryan21: theres quite a few ides that have vala completion too
ThomasHC: I might check out vala though
ryan21: its not very integrated imo though
Rednaxela: Hmm... checking up on it's web site, Vala does look like it's definitely matured some since I last looked
Rednaxela: (Honestly, kind of looked like a dead project when I last looked)