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Phoronix IRC Log: 2010-06-02

^CruX^: hey guys, i've got a small question about which graphics card to buy for my (kinda old) pc
^CruX^: I can name the details if anyone is willing to help (i do not demand that someone wants to!)
Ivanovic: you could just name the details and wait if someone does reply...
^CruX^: Ivanovic: great idea, i should have thought of that
^CruX^: I've got a AMD 64 4000+, 2 Gigs of DDR 400 RAM, and a Radeon X1600XT. The thing is, that i plan on buying a 24"-Screen and (of course) i really want to watch FullHD-Videos with that one... but the X1600XT doesn't support 1080p at all
^CruX^: I know that the proprietary drivers for ati cards are kinda bad, at least for legacy cards and i really want to use that card for a while (with the newest X-Server and Kernel of course...)
Ivanovic: you should mention which distribution you use, which board and/or which "slot" you got for the graphics card (pci express or agp?)
^CruX^: arch linux, PCI-e 1.0
^CruX^: I've been looking at the 8400GS, the Geforce 210, the 220GT and the 240GT
^CruX^: I at least want to keep the current gaming-performance of the x1600xt (using win7 so far) and watch h.264 under arch...
^CruX^: ouh, i just realize the newer cards are named GT220 and GT240, stupid naming rules...
^CruX^: I kinda think that the GT220 and the X1600XT are on the same peformance-level while gaming... but i could need a few more fps :) I don't know if the GT240 is really worh it 'cause my CPU is that old...
^CruX^: *worth
oNNy: ^CruX^: hi :D
Ivanovic: michaellarabel: spambot in the forums
Ivanovic: username: killerbballa
mastertheknife: those bots love phoronix
mastertheknife: wow what a terrible moderator, he locked the 3rd linux thread: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1288141&page=3
^CruX^: [...]Although the Steam Client is not available for Linux, there is a native Linux version of the Half-Life Dedicated Server available.[...] did that mod even read a single post in the thread? His statement kinda missed the whole topic^^
mastertheknife: lol every post in this thread is off topic:
mastertheknife: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=827424
mastertheknife: funny forums
RambJoe: how long is valves e3 event?
RambJoe: i wonder if they'll announce a new engine which natively supports OpenGL
mastertheknife: I doubt it
mastertheknife: well its possible
mastertheknife: but it wont be released in the next or two years
^CruX^: The source engine does support OpenGL nativly, doesn't it?
RambJoe: oh
Nevtus: ^CruX^: not really. It's still uses the DirectX API at heart
^CruX^: Nevtus: I wasn't sure, but i always thought that you are able to select opengl or d3d...
Nevtus: you can in goldsrc (Half Life 1 engine)
asraniel: ^CruX^: it's native opengl, just some people don't view it as native opengl, but it actually is
RambJoe: didn't valve announced OSX like the day before their last conference
RambJoe: http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k94/ummms/funny/de_dust_sandcastle.jpg
mastertheknife: ^CruX^: thats in goldsrc, which is actually native opengl, native d3d was added later but the engine was designed for opengl so it performs much better with opengl
mastertheknife: I think Valve will use the E3 to promote the mac client
mastertheknife: :/
mastertheknife: which is stupid imo, its perfect timing to announce a linux client and promote linux gaming
mastertheknife: this is once in a year oppurtunity
RambJoe: that's not a surprise
mastertheknife: opportunity*
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: honestly, for gamers the gamescom in cologne is the bigger event
RambJoe: the mac client is already out
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: by far more visitors than E3
Nevtus: Dunno about them (re)annoucing the mac client but I doubt them annoucing a Linux client either. The audience at E3 isn't right for that (at present)
RambJoe: maybe they could announce it
RambJoe: but not the major announcement
Nevtus: the surprise is that the live portal 2 demo at E3 is running on the new native linux client
RambJoe: :D
RambJoe: has portal been confirmed to run Source?
mastertheknife: Nevtus: I wish
Nevtus: RambJoe: huh? Portal (game) runs on Source (engine)?
mastertheknife: RambJoe: of course, Portal is a Valve game, it definitely runs on Source
RambJoe: yeah but what if they announce a new engine
mastertheknife: New engine will take years to develop
mastertheknife: Portal 2 should be released this year
mastertheknife: so.. impossible
Ivanovic: the current speculation is that the suprise will be HL2 episode 3
RambJoe: might have started years ago
Ivanovic: (at least speculation on gaming sites)
Nevtus: you mean a rebranding? Considering Source is always getting updated at every new game it always is their "new" engine
RambJoe: or that dota thing?
RambJoe: G4 are going to broadcast it
Nevtus: would HL2 Episode 3 be a surprise though? Everyone knows it'll come out at some point
Nevtus: could be a gameplay demo I guess
mastertheknife: I actually heard HL2 ep3 is slightly delayed because of the mac client
Ivanovic: Nevtus: yes, a gameplay demo could be the surprise
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: nah, it is delayed for windows and mac because it will first be released on linux!
Nevtus: STEAM ON LINUX CONFIRED
Nevtus: CONFIRMED
Nevtus: maybe Gabe will walk out in a penguin suit. That'd be surprising
mastertheknife: lol
asraniel: thinks that that joke gets old
mastertheknife: im so pissed off at valve
RambJoe: i want to know whats in the forbidden steam client folder :(
Nevtus: asraniel: you mean as old as people asking when a Steam client is getting annouced? That's sort of the point
Ivanovic: okay, i know the surprise
Ivanovic: gabe will show HL2EP3
Nevtus: running on an ipad
Ivanovic: in the middle of the game he will use the compiz cube to show the steam linux client
Ivanovic: since the demo is running on a linux system!
Nevtus: I already suggested that! (without the compiz part)
Ivanovic: Nevtus: the compiz part is what makes things interesting
Nevtus: yeha, the compiz cube could get the gamer audience not to dismiss it though.
Ivanovic: having all the stuff working nicely in a redirected environment
Ivanovic: (with other words: not running on nvidia since there it is damn slow)
RambJoe: and then you see its running on wine :(
Nevtus: nvidia on linux slow? eh?
Ivanovic: Nevtus: composition slows nvidia down, ati not (as much)
Nevtus: Ivanovic: you know that compiz idea actually IS a good idea. It would certainly get the gaming press to write about it and get gamers interested
RambJoe: does compiz cube work in full screen apps?
Ivanovic: Nevtus: yeah, sometimes i got good ideas...
Nevtus: if they just have a tux slide no one would care
RambJoe: i dont think it will be a new CS
RambJoe: as they are already updating source
RambJoe: and no point unless new engine
RambJoe: updating counter strike source*
Nevtus: maybe Valve have got a new game series?
^CruX^: guys, which graphicscard is the best if i have a AMD 64 4000+ and a Radeon X1600XT and i at least want to keep my current gaming-performance and watch 1080p under (arch)linux (PCI-e available)?I've been looking at the GT220 or the GT240...
JEEB: anything that you can get with a VP2 or VP4 chip. Should stay away from VP3 chip'd cards :V
JEEB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PureVideo#Table_of_PureVideo_.28HD.29_GPUs
JEEB: VP3 had weird limitations. VP2 is somewhat slower and has less features than VP4
^CruX^: THis is related to the feature-sets right?
^CruX^: yap, it is... Feature Set B is kinda crappy...
^CruX^: But is it a good idea to "stuff" an AMD 65 4000+ with a GT 240 or is the CPU/GPU balance fine..? still not sure about that
JEEB: dunno, shouldn't make anything slower at least lol
^CruX^: I found a list where the X1600 and the GT220 are really close together, but i really don't know how good that list is (http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_list.php)
^CruX^: It at least seems to be kinda good
^CruX^: For example Race Driver GRID: Do you think that it will make a "huge" difference if i buy the GT240 (which i think is like 50% faster)... I think that the CPU is going to be a bottleneck
^CruX^: JEEB: You look like you know what you're talking 'bout. Are ATi Cards a good choice in this situation? As far as i know they still lack h264-acceleration
JEEB: IIRC they have their own stuff, but it's a mess so far
JEEB: both driver and app-side
^CruX^: thats what i thought... yeah
^CruX^: too bad... i think ati cards are, at least in terms of gaming, better
JEEB: probably
JEEB: at least price/speed value is better
^CruX^: brb, thanks for your help so far!
^CruX^: ya, exactly
JEEB: but as I said, they suck with video on all platforms :V
^CruX^: JEEB: Yep, this is why im going to buy a nvidia card, my cpu is not able to decode 1080p without framedropping...
Kano: did somebody compare povray 32 vs 64 bit?
Kano: it seems 32 bit is much faster
dandel_: which os (Linux?)?
Kano: kanotix excalibur
^CruX^: Kano: depends on the specific software
^CruX^: But the 64bit architecture is better than the 32bit
Kano: i said povray
^CruX^: facepalms
^CruX^: Im sorry -.-
Kano: MD5 Failed: http://update.x-plane.com/xplane_945_timedemo.tar.bz2
Kano: Try downloading the file again (Y/n)?
Kano: for a 2nd time...
RambJoe: http://www.tgdaily.com/software-features/50036-microsoft-hits-back-at-google-over-security?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tgdaily_all_sections+%28TG+Daily+-+All+News%29
neorazorx: Valve cancels POrtal 2 press event at E3 (http://www.destructoid.com/valve-can...g-175183.phtml). The event will be replaced by a surprise -> STEAM FOR LINUX CONFIRMED XD
Katzo: neorazorx: Your link is broken.. http://www.destructoid.com/valve-cancels-portal-2-press-event-at-e3-and-it-s-amazing-175183.phtml
mastertheknife: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1173683&page=69
mastertheknife: what a troll :/
mastertheknife: "I don't really see what's the big deal with Linux... Windows is fine."
Katzo: I think they still plan to show pieces of Portal 2.. things might hint for their ARG, which is said to continue at E3
neorazorx: another link: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/64064
Katzo: IGN: "What could this be? Valve confirmed to us Portal 2 will still be shown at its booth during E3."
Katzo: maybe a limited portal 2 coop beta?
s_20: when is the e3 scheduled for?
RambJoe: not as bad as this
RambJoe: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=498472001&postcount=86
mastertheknife: RambJoe: microsoft fanboy
RambJoe: i don't see their logic
RambJoe: they're like, whats the point in not spending �150 on a shitty bloated Os
dandel_: neorazorx, That might be good, but valve hasn't released all source games on mac (and thus linux)
ryan22: its a pain to put windows, mac os x and linux on a macbook
ryan22: refit makes it somewhat better, i still couldnt get linux booting working properly though
ryan22: *triple booting
ryan22: the game situation on mac os x is crap as well
ryan22: i wonder how much valve used cider to port steam over to mac os x
christian_lappy: ryan22: 0%
ryan22: impressive
ryan22: i commend valve for actually making a proper port
ryan22: unlike 95% of mac game devs...
christian_lappy: isnt ea the only "cider" company ?
ryan22: nope
ryan22: civ uses cider as well
christian_lappy: ohhh
ryan22: mostly games ive played on mac os x use cider
ryan22: which is why the sys requirements are usually a bit higher than the windows versions
NigeyUK: meep
ryan22: derp
NigeyUK: ello ryan :)
ryan22: hey :P
NigeyUK: hmmz so whats valves e3 surprise gonna be
RambJoe: linux
NigeyUK: nah they wouldnt do that at E3
sado1: Valve Linux distro.
RambJoe: aw hell naw
RambJoe: lol
RambJoe: when they announced mac
NigeyUK: pmsl not more frikkin distros..lol
RambJoe: didn't they do it the day before a conferance
RambJoe: then announced portal 2
NigeyUK: cant remember tbh
NigeyUK: maybe HL 3 or EP3
RambJoe: maybe new cs acutally dunno
RambJoe: didn't cs 1.6 come out just before css
NigeyUK: afaik yup
RambJoe: hmm could be a new counter strike then
christian_lappy: or ps3 wsupport ;-)
RambJoe: unfortunately it would just split the community in 3 ways as people would still stay on the others
NigeyUK: i was surprised looking at the stats, how many people still actually play 1.6
Gear0: well they are updating CSS. They will be adding achievements.
NigeyUK: hey christian_lappy :)
Gear0: 1.6 is awesome
RambJoe: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1292071
NigeyUK: is there a seperate company / team doing the css beta ?
RambJoe: lol i haven't played cs 1.6 since i got the css beta
RambJoe: um hidden path is helping them
NigeyUK: ahh
RambJoe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTgqdlA_jE8 lol thats well cool
RambJoe: when you put the mouse over the buttons those random lines light up too
christian_lappy: hey NigeyUK
NigeyUK: yep, thats about as far as my build gets, wish theyd unlock the update url :(
RambJoe: how did you do it btw
RambJoe: was it all from the linux one or was some from mac
NigeyUK: all from the linux build
RambJoe: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15238680#post15238680 "Nice things aren't free."
RambJoe: oh cool :D
NigeyUK: espes has some more progress as far as fonts go
christian_lappy: really ?
NigeyUK: yeah they partially render as weird little dots now..lol
christian_lappy: :-(
NigeyUK: right ive just emailed that tit at 5by5 again lol
NigeyUK: hopefully he can get something from valve oficially, seeing as they did a video interview with them, they got more chance than me.
christian_lappy: i doubt that
NigeyUK: don't be so negative :P
christian_lappy: *realistic*
NigeyUK: have a bit of faith
ryan22: i think they should wait until the linux apis stablize a bit
mastertheknife: RambJoe: its someone from this channel who made the video..
christian_lappy: ryan22: which will never ever ever happen
mastertheknife: hey nigey :)
NigeyUK: hey mastertheknife !
ryan22: christian_lappy: i guess they could use sdl
ryan22: though sdl doesnt like alsa
mastertheknife: SDL works nicely with alsa here
NigeyUK: hm do i try steam via wine again or not, last time it just crashed every time :@
mastertheknife: I dont have any pulseaudio crap on my system
mastertheknife: just alsa and oss emulation
christian_lappy: me too
Nevtus: I use SDL with ALSA too. no problems
christian_lappy: alsa or oss simply work
Nevtus: the only people that use pulseaudio seem to be ubuntu users that don't know how to get rid of it :P
mastertheknife: Pulseaudio API is very advanced and has a lot of features, but its just not very stable yet
ryan22: i had to change it to oss to get some allgero stuff working
mastertheknife: Alsa on the otherhand is very stable
ryan22: mastertheknive: it will never be stable
mastertheknife: ryan22: why?
ryan22: alsa is too complicated for a wrapper to handle
ryan22: pulseaudio only support 70% of alsa's functions
Nevtus: isn't pulseaudio high latency by design?
mastertheknife: i have no complains about alsa, it does its job, the only problem i had with it is sometimes sound cards being in wrong order, but adding index=0 and index=1 to the options fixed that
ryan22: https://lwn.net/Articles/299211/
mastertheknife: complaints*
ryan22: i like oss better and i think a real wrapper could actually work with oss
mastertheknife: The problem with linux audio is also the latency, many game devs find its not easy to have low latency audio in linux
ryan22: the only problem is oss4 is a lil behind alsa in terms of hardware support atm
ryan22: it doesn't help that thats by design like Nevus said: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2010-May/011343.html
Sleepy_Coder: mmap()'ing sound card dedicated memory is not too portable...
Sleepy_Coder: though who uses pulseaudio for gaming? XD *runs -->*
Sleepy_Coder: who uses pulseaudio? XD *runs -->* *
ryan22: i dont ;P
Sleepy_Coder: only uses openal/alsa
ryan22: the problem is all the mainstream distros use pulseaudio, so end-users think that all its problems are caused by linux
Sleepy_Coder: Dunno why people assume Linux audio is a mess, I avoid pulseaudio, that weird KDE sound server, the other odd thing...hmm.
ryan22: and not egotistical distro maintainers
ryan22: :p
Sleepy_Coder: I'm sort of minimalist though.
ryan22: esound isnt too bad
Sleepy_Coder: I don't use GNOME, KDE, XFCE, Compiz... *shudder*
ryan22: it isnt maintained anymore though
ryan22: openbox is nice
Sleepy_Coder: uses dmix in alsa for software mixing
ryan22: i got an install of debian to use 35MB of ram with openbox
Sleepy_Coder: Though I haven't tried using my Creative card in Linux so I might be able to do hardware mixing?
Sleepy_Coder: usually uses the dwm or awesome window manager, average under 3 or 7MB of RAM :x
Sleepy_Coder: Though I really have no reason to be minimal anymore, I just love how basic things seem XD I have 8GB of RAM now... @.@
ryan22: Sleepy_Coder: thats was the entire os :P
Sleepy_Coder: loves a keyboard-driven "desktop environment"
Sleepy_Coder: ryan22: Okay fine :( I forget the average there
Sleepy_Coder: 35MB total is amazing for X :o
ryan22: i heard awesome has issues with uprading though in terms of settings
Sleepy_Coder: A lot of the API's for it's Lua configuration change frequently, yeah... :(
ryan22: seems like whenever an update is released, 5 ppl moan about it on penny-arcade
Sleepy_Coder: It's pretty hard to have fun with unless you're close to the development team
Sleepy_Coder: "team"
ryan22: lol
Sleepy_Coder: I think the lead was sort of taking off for a bit and a close friend took over the main dev for a while... it's a bit disorganized but still fun
Sleepy_Coder: I mostly love it for the clean use of ANSI C :p
Sleepy_Coder: Whenever people tell me C can't do x or is not as organized as C++, it's a tad opinion-based yes, but I can point them to awesome :-)
ryan22: i use xfce, but thats mostly cuz i use the utilities
Sleepy_Coder: And then Lua is an awesome language, imo.
Sleepy_Coder: heh
Sleepy_Coder: awesome language :p
ryan22: im too lazy to do everything myself
ryan22: oh man im tried of c++ programming trying to tell me how awesome c++ is
ryan22: *porgrammers
Sleepy_Coder: awesome takes a bit of work to get things comfortable... at one time I had several keybinds for opening firefox and searching google, wikipedia, imdb, the pirate baby, ... there was just a lot of flexibility between handling windows and scripting application behaviors
Sleepy_Coder: er... the pirate bay XD
ryan22: i usually just point them to this: http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/
ryan22: lol
ryan22: well i think you can do similar stuff with xfce
Sleepy_Coder: I really wish I could love C++, but it looks like the gingerbread house owned by a witch that ate hansel and grettle
ryan22: its pointless
ryan22: objects are useless without full garbage collection
Sleepy_Coder: I mean, it has a lot of really cool features, but at the same time a lot of really area-specific featuers that should almost never be used and can easily be abused
Sleepy_Coder: I don't want to use a language that encourages abstraction, seems to incorporate every feature under the sun where most might not even understand them...
Sleepy_Coder: Just blah.
asraniel: c++ with qt is really nice
Sleepy_Coder: I forget what the last annoying thing that got to me was.. it was something in the STL where a function was supposed to take an std::string so when I passed it a const char * it temporarily instantiated it as std::string to perform some operation that did not require twice the memory just to make it become std::string
ryan22: heh
Sleepy_Coder: I have a friend or two who does a lot of C++ dev with Qt, so I have heard it's nice, yeah... <3
ryan22: i like c# and vala
ryan22: qt does make c++ bareable
Sleepy_Coder: I think I've just found my vice though, C and Lua have made me much happier than most languages
Sleepy_Coder: Qt is lovely, but I just don't think it looks quite nice unless used with KDE or on Windows :x
markatto: lua makes me mad
Sleepy_Coder: :D
ryan22: qt is bleh on mac
markatto: 1-based indexing is stupid
Sleepy_Coder: has not seen Qt on the Mac :o
Sleepy_Coder: markatto: I remember being very angry about that.. cant' reemmber what changed it for me :\
markatto: it's also the main reason I do not use zsh
ryan22: then again every cross-platform toolkit except gtk is bleh on mac
Sleepy_Coder: I was so pissed off for a month with Lua because it couldn't do anything useful with unicode, the string library it is distributed with only accepts ASCII
Sleepy_Coder: But then I learned that I shouldn't even be using unicode in html source and everything went pleasantly well XD
Sleepy_Coder: (of course it's allowed since...html4? it's just icky though)
markatto: lua has a few nice things about it
markatto: but I MUCH prefer python
ThomasHC: stumbles in
ThomasHC: loves python
Sleepy_Coder: ew you come in packs
Sleepy_Coder: hides
ThomasHC: lol
ryan22: lol
Sleepy_Coder: I prefer Lua mostly for the small distribution size and easy C bindings
Sleepy_Coder: It's somehow very fast on top of that >.>
markatto: python also has easy C bindings
Sleepy_Coder: Under 1MB for all of Lua is <3
ThomasHC: needs to learn C but he finds himself resisting the urge to throw his computer around.
markatto: lua is indeed a bit faster though
Sleepy_Coder: wouldn't know how to do C bindings in Python :x
ThomasHC: Even Assembly is somewhat more interesting
markatto: cython is the best way
Sleepy_Coder: I should really learn x86 assembly
markatto: Sleepy_Coder: and you think that C would make you want to throw your computer around....
Sleepy_Coder: I mean, I imagine it's quite easy after dealing with the Lua stack all this time, I jus thaven't put in the effort to understand T.T
Sleepy_Coder: lol
Sleepy_Coder: Nah, I just want to get into embedded work someday :)
ryan22: Sleepy_Coder: eh c is more than fast enough
mastertheknife: Sleepy_Coder: I agree with what you said earlier, OOP everywhere might confuse things. I am a C fan and see no point in using C++ except for Qt or big programs that doing in C can be messy
ThomasHC: Assembly is NEVER easy
Sleepy_Coder: all is well with the world.
ryan22: you dont need OOP for backends
ThomasHC: Interesting, maybe
ThomasHC: easy? no.
markatto: OOP is more useful for some things than other
Sleepy_Coder: What was that OS that was written entirely in asm?
Sleepy_Coder: I need to find it again.
ThomasHC: hmm
ThomasHC: I think I just read about it
ryan22: OOP is great for frontends and guis
Sleepy_Coder: I want to try it and see what the speed is like :p
markatto: http://www.menuetos.net/
ryan22: you need it for games and web browsers too
mastertheknife: ThomasHC: C is very simple and fast to learn, start with reading tutorials in google
ThomasHC: http://www.kolibrios.org/ is written in all asm
ThomasHC: mastertheknife, I have books on it, it's not that it's hard at all, it's that, it's stupid as a language. Though.....it is WAY better than C++
ThomasHC: C++ is a giant hack
Sleepy_Coder: Hmm I think I might have been reading about a different OS written entirely in asm, but thanks I'll look at this :-)
mastertheknife: ThomasHC: When coding in C++ i do it just for the classes\OOP, i always ignore the iostream and STL stuff
mastertheknife: printf all the way
Sleepy_Coder: http://menuetos.net/ ahh it was menuetos, the thing it forked off of
ThomasHC: Yeah
ThomasHC: but still
ThomasHC: OOP in C++ is a hack
ThomasHC: mainly
mastertheknife: I also love github :)
ThomasHC: Linus Torvalds says if you don't like git, I quote "you are but ugly and stupid"
ThomasHC: That's reason enough to switch right there I think
ThomasHC: :P
Sleepy_Coder: jesus fuck >.>
markatto: iostream is ugly
Sleepy_Coder: a 3MB livecd
Sleepy_Coder: for the kolibri os
mastertheknife: I used both SVN and git and there is definitely no comparison, especially because you can work offline in git, when i was serving in the army i had a lot of free time but had no internet, and git allowed me to work
ThomasHC: Sleepy_Coder, I think they have a floopy version too
ThomasHC: erm....
ThomasHC: *floppy
markatto: Sleepy_Coder: that's still a lot of lines of ASM though :P
Sleepy_Coder: i came
mastertheknife: Linus Torvalds is a genious and he did awesome job with git
ThomasHC: Yes he did
ryan22: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8
ryan22: i love this vid
ThomasHC: But you must note, overall, most of the coding is not his lol
Sleepy_Coder: yes yes, first impressions blah blah blah... but this looks cool :p
ThomasHC: ryan22, I saw that vid
ryan22: ThomasHC: at least hes humble enough to admit it :P
ThomasHC: on avsforums
ryan22: ah cool
ryan22: :p
mastertheknife: With git you have a local copy of the repository and can do anything offline, I wonder why CVS and SVN didn't think of this
ThomasHC: yeah, not a member, I'm a lurker I guess from time to time :P
ryan22: mastertheknife: control reasons
mastertheknife: I know Linus hates CVS, and also hates SVN because SVN's goal was "CVS done right", he said SVN is useless because CVS can't be done right
ryan22: these project teams like svn so they can dictate who has commit access
ryan22: alot of this stuff is suprizingly political
ThomasHC: yeah
ThomasHC: hmm....PyWebKit GTK is nice. IF I could figure out how to handle downloading stuff my web browser would be nice lol
Sleepy_Coder: :]
Sleepy_Coder: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Sleepy_Coder: I uninstalled VMware a month ago >.<
ryan22: i asked the dev team of webkitgtk if they could switch to v8 a few days ago
Sleepy_Coder: I can't put the asm os thing in a vm :(
ThomasHC: There isn't much documentation and what there is I have to mentally convert from C to python
ryan22: i think i pissed off the main dev. i was a lil too insistent
ThomasHC: ryan22, I hear the default webkit JS engine is beating V8 in some tests....forget the link
mastertheknife: I wonder, why people like python so much?
Sleepy_Coder: lol
mastertheknife: whats so special about it?
Sleepy_Coder: Lot of datatypes to pleasure yourself with.
ryan22: mostly cuz im tired of epiphany not being able to edit my posts on vbulletin forums
ThomasHC: mastertheknife, Rapid Application Development, Easy to Maintain Code, Extensible.
Sleepy_Coder: Really I think it's the community that pretty much ensure you can find a binding for anything you could ever dream of.
ThomasHC: ryan22, hmm, it works for me in my webkit browser
ThomasHC: let me try it again
ryan22: ThomasHC: ya its just webkitgtk i think. the dev said it was how epiphany did scroll bars or something weird
ThomasHC: yeah probably
ryan22: so i was a lil off base for telling them to change the js engine
ryan22: meh, at least i got their attention :P
ThomasHC: haha
Sleepy_Coder: You should have asked them if they liked to take it from behind.
ThomasHC: lol?
mastertheknife: lol.
Sleepy_Coder: About the same thing :p
ryan22: lol
Sleepy_Coder: sigh... linus steam linus steam linux steam...
Sleepy_Coder: where are you.....
ryan22: well i was nice about it. they got their lube...
Sleepy_Coder: :D
Sleepy_Coder: good boy.
ThomasHC: ryan22, I just tried it in the web browser I wrote and it's for sure epiphany :P
ryan22: good to know
ryan22: which one?
ThomasHC: haven't released it yet or anything
ryan22: i tried midora, but it was pretty unstable
ThomasHC: Just one I wrote in python
ryan22: ah cool
ThomasHC: hmm, midori is usualyl stable for me
ThomasHC: *usually
ryan22: thats a good idea actually
ThomasHC: yeah
Sleepy_Coder: kazehakase was fun
ThomasHC: It has some small issues but overall works well
ryan22: since the engine is in c++ the extra resources taken up by python dont really matter
Sleepy_Coder: http://kazehakase.sourceforge.jp/
ThomasHC: ryan22, Yeah, it uses about the same RAM as Firefox, maybe a bit less, here it is on the right if you want to see: http://imagebin.ca/view/qtRnR38G.html
ryan22: thats nice
Sleepy_Coder: kazehakase can use either webkit or gecko
Sleepy_Coder: :p
ThomasHC: Yeah
Sleepy_Coder: I think it also has an unstable plugin for rendering using trident from IE
ryan22: i use epiphany in infinityos just cuz it respects the gtk+ font settings
Sleepy_Coder: but I never got it working
ryan22: which firefox doesnt :(
ThomasHC: Gecko bindings are a pain though.
Sleepy_Coder: nou
ThomasHC: from my experience
Sleepy_Coder: ;p
Sleepy_Coder: i still prefer firefox on linux
ryan22: i have 20/400 vision so i up the dpi to 120
ThomasHC: ryan22, ahh so you are the guy behind infinity os. I'm thomas from your forum :P
Sleepy_Coder: just because while chrome is faster, it is uglier and has horrible tab handling
ryan22: ya i noticed your post :P
Sleepy_Coder: I can make firefox look exactly how I want.
ryan22: chrome just crashes for me
ThomasHC: ryan22, Yeah I was wondering what username you were lol
ryan22: lol
ryan22: well i go back darkphoenix22 as well
ryan22: *by
ThomasHC: Yeah I noticed that while doing a google search for infinity os :P
ryan22: but i would like a stable chrome
Sleepy_Coder: I hate how in Chrome when you open a new tab from a link on some page it'll place the new tab seemingly wherever. If you were to open two links from the original page it will open two new tabs, you switch to one, decide you don't ike it, close it, it will resume focus in the 2nd of the two newly opened tabs, instead of reverting to the tab that last had focus
Sleepy_Coder: It's f-cking annoying T.T
ryan22: try epiphany
ryan22: it has worse tab handling
ThomasHC: ryan22, Try Chromium, its in Lucid's repos
ryan22: tried it
ThomasHC: it's chrome - tracking software
ThomasHC: pretty much
Sleepy_Coder: Also, the dumb tab graphics keep you from seeing all of the , and even when you mouse over a link, the status bar at the bottom has a fixed width (EVEN IF IT HAS ROOM TO RENDER THE FULL LINK) so you never can see the full link. ThomasHC: it's never crashed on me ryan22: chrome has wierd issues it seems with the PAE kernel ThomasHC: ahh ThomasHC: that is a possibility Sleepy_Coder: Chrome's strength is in security, not ease of use, imo T.T ThomasHC: maybe Sleepy_Coder: Pisses me off so bad. ThomasHC: another thing about python, you usually don't have securtiy issues lol ThomasHC: *security Sleepy_Coder: I use Chrome on Windows because Firefox looks like a bitch, Firefox on Linux because Chrome isn't comfortable. Sleepy_Coder: usably* ryan22: this bug has been fixed, but i still have issues: https://bugs.launchpad.net/infinityos/+bug/555493 mastertheknife: I use opera in both windows and linux, opera 10.5X in linux although its not stable and crashes often Sleepy_Coder: I mean, both browsers I guess are pretty acceptable, I just get so tired of idiot Chrome fanboys acting like it's the answer to all our prayers. Sleepy_Coder: I konw a few people on the dev team that are drunk off Google. ryan22: it think theyre doing tricking stuff with the plugins which is running into the nx-bit ryan22: *tricky ryan22: opera is nice but their interface doesnt integrate well ryan22: im superficial Sleepy_Coder: application-specific theming is horrid :( Sleepy_Coder: The only reason I'm a bit unhappy about Steam coming to Linux. ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: it only works on windows ThomasHC: where you know, the GUI sucks anyways ThomasHC: well ThomasHC: not so much in Vista/7 ryan22: everything should just follow gtk, even qt :P ThomasHC: in XP....yes ThomasHC: ryan22, for the most part it does now ThomasHC: they have a theme fro QT that draws using GTK ThomasHC: *for ryan22: it does, but theres a few wierd apps that like to completely ignore my themes ThomasHC: Yeah ThomasHC: Usually app specific ThomasHC: so ryan22, tell me about Infinity, eh? ryan22: basically media centers suck ryan22: xbmc is slow as hell ryan22: so i made a distro that had a decent interface that could scale to the TV ThomasHC: I remember back in 2008 I was going to make a media center distro ryan22: making the TV just a monitor ThomasHC: so yeah I know how it feels ThomasHC: hmm, nice ryan22: its hard to make the computer a TV ThomasHC: It could also work on desktops though of course ThomasHC: yeah it is ryan22: but pretty easy to make a TV into a computer ryan22: well i use on here ThomasHC: True ryan22: mostly cuz i hate ubuntu and its instablity ryan22: and debian is too out of date ThomasHC: Hmm, I've never had issues with ubuntu's stability ryan22: and i dislike rpm and find compiling everything stupid ThomasHC: As for debian, try Debian Testing ryan22: debian testing breaks alot though ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: but ThomasHC: what you could do ThomasHC: is make an app like Linux Mint's mintUpdate ThomasHC: or just modify mintUpdate ryan22: https://launchpad.net/~infinityos-core ryan22: i just use apt ThomasHC: so it only upgrades desktops applications ryan22: :P ryan22: and PPAs ThomasHC: MintUpdate is just a frontend for apt :P ryan22: so its all integrated ryan22: i dont mind software center either ThomasHC: yeah ryan22: though i use aptitude for everything ThomasHC: You could use some of mint's custom apps ThomasHC: They are really nice ryan22: the mint guy is very withdrawl ryan22: *withdrawn ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: He's got a family and kids ryan22: hes a bit notorious in the ubuntu community ThomasHC: yeah ryan22: mind you the ubuntu is just a bunch of middle managers so eh ryan22: most of them cant even code but feel they should direct a distro ThomasHC: He's got a family and kids and makes LinuxMint, so he's got a lto of work to do I imagine, I've spoken to him a few times ThomasHC: Yeah ThomasHC: I mean you don't *need* to code to make a distro at all ThomasHC: but they usually come together that way Gear0: do you have to have access to the source code to port an application from windows to linux? Or can it be done practically by another method? some kind of reverse engineering?? and is this legal? ryan22: so you end up with this: http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showpost.php?p=15073202&postcount=197 ryan22: i barely coded anything ryan22: but the head dev of xubuntu cant do a bash script ThomasHC: Gear0, Usually, you do, unless it's written in say, python, and it is legal if you can get the source ThomasHC: ryan22, whoa ryan22: you should code as little as possible, but you still should be able to code ThomasHC: Yeah ThomasHC: I never liked Xubuntu to be honest ThomasHC: I never saw the point ryan22: because if you cant code, you dont understand the code. and cant see the consequences of their direction ThomasHC: I've got nothing against XFCE but I prefer LXDE or Gnome or KDE ThomasHC: ryan22, true ryan22: i like xfce cuz its so modular ryan22: lxde somes close but its a bit ulgy and doesnt have all the utilities ThomasHC: yeah ryan22: thunar does need some work ThomasHC: ryan22, have you seen Lubuntu? ryan22: lubuntu is eh ryan22: mostly cuz they are using a lot of unstable software ryan22: its a beta, and they should call it as such ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: I tried it and it works great for me though ThomasHC: from what I've noticed ryan22: the problem is edge cases ThomasHC: When you run Ubuntu, one of two things happen: ThomasHC: It is a great, stable system and you love it ThomasHC: OR ThomasHC: It has loads of problems ryan22: its cuz of the dev model ThomasHC: it's been stable in my experience ThomasHC: I first used it with Ubuntu 7.10 ryan22: just plain forking debian every 6 months is horrible idea ryan22: because you cant test all of debian mastertheknife: What do you think about gentoo? ThomasHC: maybe ryan22: so software with bugs gets locked in the repos and is never updated ThomasHC: It seems to have worked well, and works great for loads of people(like me) ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: but ryan22: the base idea is sound ryan22: but most ppl with ubuntu also use like 15 PPAs ThomasHC: you have to admit, the canonical supported packages are usually great. ThomasHC: the ones in universe/multiverse can have issues ryan22: except the gnome stuff ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: I run hybrid desktops a lot ThomasHC: like LXDE with gnome panel or something ryan22: http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showpost.php?p=15079577&postcount=212 ryan22: sorry about posting all this forum stuff, but im lazy ryan22: :P ThomasHC: haha ThomasHC: KDE on Ubuntu is horrible ryan22: mastertheknife: i think they dont nearly enough testing ThomasHC: Kubuntu sucks the big one ryan22: its cuz none of the devs use kde ThomasHC: yeah christian_lappy: for kde opensuse is the way to go ThomasHC: but I'm talking about the kubuntu devs ThomasHC: they have improved a lot ThomasHC: but it still sucks christian_lappy: ubuntu=use gnome ryan22: the debian board is on the gnome board ThomasHC: christian_lappy, I agree, Fedora KDE and Chakra/KDemod are nice on arch as well ThomasHC: ryan22, on debian KDE is good ryan22: and all the kde devs use suse, arch and gentoo ryan22: eh ThomasHC: in my experience ryan22: i cant install kopete without install all of kdenet ThomasHC: sidux is great to ThomasHC: yeah, it's not modular ThomasHC: but it still works well ThomasHC: Kubuntu does not work well ThomasHC: modular or not ryan22: the prob is you can do that on arch ryan22: and gentoo ThomasHC: actually ThomasHC: arch by default ThomasHC: You can't ThomasHC: if you use kdemod you can ryan22: ah ThomasHC: kdemod = kde modular ryan22: ya i was going by what the guys were saying on that forum ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: KDEmod works incredibly ryan22: well i guess debian kde is more decent that i thought :P ThomasHC: haha ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: it works very well ryan22: well the reason why ubuntu works kinda well with gnome is that they sync the releases of ubuntu with the releases of gentoo ryan22: they dont with kde or xfce ThomasHC: you mean gnome? lol ryan22: lol gnome ya ThomasHC: sync with gentoo? XD ThomasHC: btw ThomasHC: you were wrong about Gnome vs XFCE's RAM usage ThomasHC: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/KDE-a-resource-hog-949634.html ThomasHC: Gnome uses less power and only 25 or so MG more memory ryan22: i got xfce on infinityos running with a stable 128 MB of ram ThomasHC: yeah ryan22: its default around 200MB but thats cuz of deluge ThomasHC: I got gnome running great on similar RAM on my grandfather's desktop ThomasHC: :P ThomasHC: uses 80MB RAM ryan22: i can get xfce down to around 60 - 80 MB disabling some of the utilites ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: you can do the same with gnome really ryan22: but i really use xfce cuz its modular andar: :X ThomasHC: just most people don't andar: i guess deluge uses about 40mb ryan22: ive seen it go up to 100 MB at times ThomasHC: Gnome is fairly modular, though it has been taking steps back, with gdm depending on half of the basic gnome desktop andar: depends on how much cache you set andar: and if you are runnign the daemon on the same box ryan22: i should look into that ryan22: i dont use the gtk interface though, just the wen interface andar: ah andar: any reason for that? ryan22: the web interface is better anyways andar: hmm ryan22: and i could get the gtk interface to work without a default user ryan22: *couldnt andar: whys that? ryan22: the interface needs to authunicate andar: what version? ThomasHC: it'd probably be possible to write a new GTK interface to it that uses less RAM ryan22: latest andar: 1.2.3? ryan22: yep andar: hmm ryan22: i keep the latest version in my repos andar: it needs to authenticate, but if it's run as the same user it shouldn't be a problem ThomasHC: I wonder what Deluge's backend is like andar: ThomasHC, ask away.. i wrote it ryan22: but i cant have a default user in the default install of deluge andar: ryan22, not quite sure what you mean ThomasHC: andar, Whoa, nice! I'm going to take a guess with absolutely no knowledge of Deluge's source code and say the backend is probably imported by the GUI? as a module I mean ThomasHC: prepares to be totally wrong in his assumption ryan22: so i got around it by authunicating any user by putting a cookie for the web interface in /etc/skel andar: ThomasHC, depends ThomasHC: hmm ThomasHC: I'll look around the source later RambJoe: why do people keep requesting mw2 for mac lol ryan22: so any user automatically is authicated on infintiyOS andar: ThomasHC, if you run classic mode it will load the core in the same program space ThomasHC: I see ryan22: see infinityOS doesnt have a default user, so i had to made it work automatically with any user ThomasHC: ryan22, what do you mean exactly? andar: ThomasHC, if you run it in daemon/client mode it won't load the core and will instead connect to a daemon ThomasHC: ahh I see ryan22: i tried getting the gtk interface working, but i think it generates the authication key differently for each user andar: ryan22, then simply give the users read access to the ~/.config/deluge/auth file ThomasHC: andar, so it would technically be possible to say, write a lighter version of the GUI using the daemon? andar: and make sure the config dir is set somewhere readable by all andar: and use that config dir when you startup deluge andar: ThomasHC, yup ryan22: but i wanted to make deluge run in an unpriviledged user ThomasHC: Interesting, I've always been curious about the code behind deluge, I'll have to see what it is like, thanks! andar: ryan22, then just setup a host in the hostlists.conf file and have it autoconnect with some credentials you add to the auth file ryan22: with only write access to the config files and the bittorrent dl directory ThomasHC: ryan22, what do you mean by that? Deluge doesn't require root access andar: yea.. ryan22: i wanted to run it like a service andar: it's a bit confusing really ryan22: like apache andar: sure.. i run mine as the 'deluge' user andar: with an init.d script ThomasHC: that would be interesting ryan22: so its always running as a daemon in an unpriviledged user andar: then i just connect to it from my desktop's gtkui ryan22: andar: i tried that, but the keys didnt work if the user changed andar: what keys? ryan22: the key the gui use to auth andar: the password? andar: just create one then ryan22: the problem is though i cant do that automatically for each user andar: so don't ryan22: so i just used the webui :p andar: create one for all users ryan22: it didnt seem to work andar: or give all users read access to the auth file ryan22: my users seems to like the web ui better andar: and start them with the same config folder ryan22: cant do that ryan22: thats a security flaw andar: deluge-gtk -c /var/deluge andar: chmod a+r /var/deluge/auth andar: ok ryan22: it has to be segrated andar: huh? ryan22: lol sorry im using your program in a very unintended way andar: must be ryan22: its part of the os in infinityos andar: right ryan22: so i secured everything up like a core service ryan22: hell it even dls to /var/bt/ ryan22: :P andar: ok.. ryan22: i need to make deluge user independent for it to work on the live cd ThomasHC: you could make a group and assign write/read access to the group, no? andar: ryan22, no andar: ThomasHC, yes ThomasHC: That would work ryan22: ThomasHC: i gave everyone write access to /var/bt/ to get around that andar: that has nothing to do with it ThomasHC: nice andar: the save path is something entirely different ryan22: i cant tell ubuntu how to make the user andar: sighs andar: good luck ryan22: lol sorry ryan22: i hacked the crap out of your program ThomasHC: lol.. ThomasHC: itwould be interesting if you could make web uis for lots of programs ryan22: but the hacks are all config file and settings related so the user can still upgrade freely to next version ryan22: i tried to make it as clean as possible ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: ryan22, I could design a GKT GUI to the web ui ThomasHC: now THAT would be a hack, my friend ryan22: lol ryan22: well im looked at getting a gui for flexget ryan22: which is also why i had to make deluge run independent of the user :p ThomasHC: just a simple gtk.Window around a webkit.Webview and tell it to open the web ui ThomasHC: easy ThomasHC: ryan22, what is flexget exactly anywyas? link? ThomasHC: *anyways ryan22: trust me the stuff i was talking about above to get deluge to run user independent ly and encapsulated took me like 2 days ThomasHC: typing correctly ftl. ThomasHC: I imagine so ryan22: i didnt eat... ryan22: im not joking :P ThomasHC: haha ThomasHC: yeah ryan22: http://flexget.com/ ThomasHC: but, if you wanted, a GUI to the Web UI would be easy ryan22: andar: btw thank you for your program. its a core part of infinityos. if it wasnt awesome, i never would have spent so much time hacking it :P ThomasHC: haha ThomasHC: ryan22, I've seen flexget before! just didn't remember is all ryan22: oh nah the web ui running a browser if fine ThomasHC: Yeah ThomasHC: Either way, it would be essentially the same thing ryan22: it actually starts up faster then the gtk+ ui :P ThomasHC: It would be much like Mozilla's prism ThomasHC: basically a web browser with one URL and no URL bar ThomasHC: :P ryan22: lol ThomasHC: so like, flexget doesn't have a GUI? ryan22: http://infinityos.net/node/18 ryan22: nope ryan22: i set up all up out of the box on infinityos ThomasHC: looks nice ryan22: the prob is you need to edit a text file to add tv shows (i made the script for you, which is the hardest part) ryan22: i set cron to run it every hour ThomasHC: how does flexgit handle tv shows? ThomasHC: *flexget ryan22: and it keeps a sqllite database of what has been downloaded ThomasHC: I see ryan22: it just checks a rss feed, dls any new torrents and adds them to deluge ryan22: it can tell deluge how and where to download them too ThomasHC: ahh, I see, cool ThomasHC: So basically, you just need an interface to edit the text file? ryan22: the problem is although editing the text file is damn easy, it scares ppl ThomasHC: YEah, for sure ThomasHC: a GUI for it would probably be easy ThomasHC: Hell, people would even be less scared if there was just a GTK text editor around the text file that "looked" integrated ThomasHC: a black/white background and text scares people shitless a lot of the time ryan22: https://answers.launchpad.net/infinityos/+faq/1003 ryan22: theres the rules ryan22: and thats about it ryan22: it would be nice to be able to add catagories and stuff though ThomasHC: haha ThomasHC: yeah ryan22: but a base ui is fine for now ThomasHC: you could probably do that, does flexget read comments? ryan22: yes ThomasHC: like can you do #This is a comment and I will ignore ThomasHC: ahh ThomasHC: ok ThomasHC: that makes it much easier ThomasHC: rofl, always use spaces ThomasHC: half of the kernel commits have the reason: "changed tabs to spaces" ryan22: lol you should see some of the scripts they have devised for that purpose ThomasHC: haha, I know, they are wild :P ThomasHC: I dunno why any text editor uses tabs anyways ThomasHC: I can see openoffice or abiword doing it\ ThomasHC: but not gedit or Geany or something ThomasHC: One editor I like is Komodo Edit, but I wish it could execute my programs within itself ryan22: i just use edit ryan22: *gedit ryan22: i dont mind vim, but i dont want to learn my text editor ryan22: and emacs scares me programble: emacs ThomasHC: haha ThomasHC: Emacs is awesome ThomasHC: I use emacs as on OS, and a way of life ThomasHC: :P ThomasHC: jk ThomasHC: Vim is actually much harder than emacs ryan22: <ryan22> https://answers.launchpad.net/infinityos/+faq/1003 ryan22: whoops ryan22: http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~kirkenda/joy84.html ThomasHC: haha ryan22: bill joy doesnt use vi cuz its too complicated... ThomasHC: lol.... ThomasHC: well ThomasHC: that was in 1984 ThomasHC: :P ryan22: ya they didnt have vim back then programble: vi just sucks ryan22: just 345454 different vis programble: vim sucks too ryan22: lol ThomasHC: they all suck ThomasHC: emacs is ok but ThomasHC: it's huge ThomasHC: I'd rather just use nano Midler: ThomasHC: are you coding in nano? ThomasHC: I code in nano quite a bit Midler: oO Nevtus: it's better to know vi(m) since it's in pretty much every *nix setup by default Nevtus: it's also just better :P ryan22: the new nano even has syntax hightlighting mastertheknife: I actually like kwrite in KDE4 ThomasHC: I know vi(m) ryan22: its not in infinityos or ubuntu... ThomasHC: do I enjoy using it? no ThomasHC: I'd rather use cat, echo, and sed ThomasHC: :P ryan22: lol ed programble: ed Nevtus: ryan22: yes it is. install a fresh version of ubuntu and type vi. it will be there programble: its the standard text editor ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: it is there ryan22: my friend went through like a hour long rant about how he couldn't use his precious vim on a standard install of ubuntu mastertheknife: vi is powerful but definitely not noob friendly ryan22: he didnt have sudo access :p ThomasHC: LOL ThomasHC: FAIL ThomasHC: but yeah ThomasHC: vi is painful Nevtus: ryan22: vi is always present and useable. If you've ever remote admin'd any *nix boxes this is very useful Nevtus: however if given the chance it's better to replace it with vim ryan22: im not sure if it is on base ubuntu ryan22: maybe its just vim ryan22: i know i dont use vim, just cause than i would have to include emacs ThomasHC: I think vi is a symlink to vim ryan22: *include ThomasHC: ryan22, huh? ThomasHC: vim doesnt require emacs ryan22: but if i included one over the other, then the fanboys will bitch ryan22: its another reason why i use xfce ryan22: other then the fact i dislike both gnome and kde :P Nevtus: uhh. what does a DE have to do with anything? ThomasHC: who cares about fanboys bitching ThomasHC: tell them they need to learn how to use apt ryan22: i do cuz tehn i have to tell them to use apt adrian_broher: ubuntu ships with vi ryan22: i was pretty sure it didnt. oh well ThomasHC: ryan22, ubutnu even ships with vim lol ThomasHC: *ubuntu Nevtus: every decent *nix ships with vi ThomasHC: and that doesn't spark debate ThomasHC: :P ryan22: well i didnt remove it ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: I should try LFS ryan22: i justed didnt explicitly include it ThomasHC: haha ThomasHC: hmm ThomasHC: LFS with a custom package manager sounds nice ThomasHC: :P ThomasHC: I've written a few package managers actually ThomasHC: out of boredom ryan22: i have too ThomasHC: ryan22, why? I thought infinity used apt? ryan22: oh i though you siad packages :p ThomasHC: oh lol XD ThomasHC: yeah I was working on my own distro ThomasHC: still kind of am ThomasHC: but got more int ocoding ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: still kind of working on it ryan22: i mostly stopped making packages cuz i realized everyone had already packaged everything on their PPAs anyways ThomasHC: ryan22, just steal the packages from the ppa ThomasHC: :P ryan22: so i just asked the maintainers if they could use their packages ryan22: *i ryan22: and everyone said yes ThomasHC: Also, it would probably be more useful to make your own apt repo ThomasHC: if you have the hosting ThomasHC: rather than use ppas ryan22: and i bumped up into the launchpad limit for number of emails sent. so i stopped asking cuz everyone said go ahead anyways ryan22: i like ppas cuz it takes me 3 clicks to copy a package ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: maybe ThomasHC: but you could make a script for it :P ryan22: and launchpad is a REALLY good dev filter ThomasHC: has ryan22: lol ThomasHC: yeah it is ThomasHC: dude ThomasHC: I make scripts for everything ThomasHC: lol ryan22: man the number of time i had to sign crap with my gpg key ryan22: and dont get me started on pbuilder ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: I used reprepro for my repo ryan22: i need to use launchpad to maintain a connection with the ubuntu community as well. cuz right now they dont like me all that much Nevtus: ... what did you do? ryan22: https://launchpad.net/infinityos/+announcement/5779 ryan22: maybe i shouldnt have used the word fork... branch is more appropriate in hindsight Nevtus: abandon X11? why? ^CruX^: and replace it with...? ryan22: its flawed. you cant v-sync two apps using pure X11 ryan22: i dont know yet ryan22: thats far into the future ^CruX^: Indeed Nevtus: ... ryan22: im focusing mostly on replacing alsa with OSS4 in 2.0 ryan22: i do have an awesome name for the X11 replacement though ryan22: tuXedo ryan22: :P ^CruX^: X12? ThomasHC: lol? ryan22: but seriosuly though Nevtus: I can understand why they don't like you now :P ryan22: x11 is bleh for vids cuz the v-syncing limitation ryan22: ya i was a dramatic i suppose ryan22: *bit ryan22: but i did post my ideas on the mailing list to see if they would bite ThomasHC: ryan22, you are going to have fun replacing X11 ThomasHC: especially when you realize GTK won't even work ThomasHC: : ^CruX^: Hehe ThomasHC: :P ryan22: lol well the problem is mostly the queueing ryan22: X11 can only v-sync one program at once ryan22: the way around it is to use opengl for everything ryan22: but then you dont get hardware acceleration like VDPAU ThomasHC: lol ryan22: i just disabled compositing ThomasHC: A lot of the problems you seem to have are very specific to certain hardware ryan22: and tell ppl to stay the hell away from compiz if they want to watch videos ThomasHC: it's fairly obvious most people don't have issues with ubunt ulike you ThomasHC: it runs great for many ThomasHC: ryan22, It works great for me :P ^CruX^: ThomasHC: ack... ryan22: i dont think va-api works well with v-sync either for the same reason ThomasHC: ^CruX^, hmm? ryan22: well im pushing ubuntu to its limits ^CruX^: ThomasHC: I just wanted to enforce your point... nevermind :p ThomasHC: ahh ok :P ryan22: so i needed to change it ThomasHC: yeah ryan22: ubuntu as is does not work for video ryan22: and my distro is all about video ThomasHC: ryan22, works great for me ^CruX^: Video in which way? Do you mean any kind of moving output? ryan22: HD video ThomasHC: works for loads of people ryan22: xv and vdpau for the v-sync reasons ^CruX^: ryan22: As far as i know, vdpau works kinda great ryan22: in lucid ryan22: infinityos uses karmic ThomasHC: ryan22, I highly advice you to include utilities to easy enable/disable pulseaudio in your distro ThomasHC: PulseAudio is a great program ryan22: i would have no problem doing so ThomasHC: and also, Alsa works on far more hardware than OSS ryan22: it does ryan22: im still mulling over the oss thing ThomasHC: I advise easy choice ryan22: thats the direction im aiming for too ThomasHC: I would say alsa and pulseaudio...perhaps re-basing on lucid, it's an LTS after all ThomasHC: and Lucid works far better than Karmic ryan22: roadmap: http://infinityos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28 ryan22: its coming ^CruX^: mplayer-mt is great! ryan22: just the only issues that would be fixed by upgrading to lucid are some problems with older radeon cards ^CruX^: Nearly as good as CoreAVC ThomasHC: ryan22, more than that ryan22: everything else has been backported ThomasHC: Karmic broke a few things ThomasHC: if you want stability, it's pretty much excepted to use an LTS ryan22: in fact i tried to backport the newer radoen drivers but they like require a newer kernel, xserver and mesa ryan22: i was going to set up a PPA for it, but i gave up ryan22: karmic works ryan22: and infinityos 1.0 is on rc5 so i cant change it now ThomasHC: I still say rebasing to Lucid for 1.1 ThomasHC: :P ThomasHC: hmm ryan22: 2.0 and 1.1 will be about the same thing ThomasHC: I might try compiling KDE modular ThomasHC: ryan22, if it's small changed, make it 1.x, but you should be more innovative with 2.0 ^CruX^: ryan22: I found this in your forums "The open-source Radeon drivers have greatly impressed me." What do you mean by this? Is there anything about Video-Acceleration? ryan22: just 1.1 will use karmic and will be released a bit eariler ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: ^CruX^, they work for me :P ryan22: ^Crux^: i meant that the xv output wasn't washed out and was actually v-syncing ryan22: im easily impressed, especially after using the fglrx drivers ^CruX^: ryan22: okay, i've got an X1600XT which also works as is is supposed to work ^CruX^: But its really, really slow and it doesnt accelerate h264 at all... ryan22: that card should run fine ThomasHC: it should be known the opensoruce drivers are much better ryan22: the older radeon cards dont have full hd video acceration on linux ^CruX^: ya, but im planning to buy a new monitor in a few days and i need a new card ryan22: the fglrx drivers do have support for va-api but your card might not have support ^CruX^: Still struggling which one to buy... ryan22: go nvidia ^CruX^: yap, it doesnt... thats the problem ryan22: their drivers actually work ^CruX^: Maybe you could gimme a hint... ^CruX^: I've got an AMD 64 4000 and i cannot decide if i should buy a GT220 or a GT240 ThomasHC: I dunno ryan22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_PureVideo#Table_of_PureVideo_.28HD.29_GPUs ThomasHC: nvidia has had more issues in my experience on irc channels/forums ^CruX^: They're both able to fully decode 1080p and Stuff ThomasHC: join #ubuntu,#xubuntu,#kubuntu,#kde ThomasHC: oops ThomasHC: fail ryan22: theres a table of all the gpus that support hd acelleration ^CruX^: ryan22: ya, i know the page and im sure that they both do 1080p at proper frame-rates ryan22: ive never had issues with nvidia vdpau, if you use a decent mplayer build ryan22: rvm is nice ryan22: git is better if you can build it ^CruX^: rvm? ^CruX^: The standard archlinux build worked great ryan22: https://launchpad.net/~rvm/+archive/mplayer maligor: I wish I had money for a new display too, those HP ZR24w's look sweet ryan22: same guy who makes smplayer ryan22: his builds might be ubuntu only ryan22: and i think arch might use git ryan22: as they should, svn is pure crap maligor: svn is fine ryan22: its about as xfree86 was before it was forked ^CruX^: hm, did you watch torvalds' talk about git? ThomasHC: maligor, according to linus, you are butt ugly and stupid ^CruX^: Its basically 20% flaming about svn :D ryan22: maintainers needing a huge lists of patched ryan22: *patches ThomasHC: ^CruX^, I just referenced that ThomasHC: :P ^CruX^: ThomasHC: ya, got that one :p maligor: heh, svn would be crap for something as large as the linux kernel ThomasHC: lol maligor: but that doesn't mean it's pure crap ryan22: jesus compiling svn MPlayer is worse than compiling the kernel due to all the patches maligor: or rather it's more about the development model than the size ^CruX^: git is kinda complicated... but i think its great for bigger projects (like the kernel) maligor: it's not really complicated ^CruX^: i personally think it is :p maligor: git has a practical approach ryan22: the problems with svn mplayer (more on the end of the page): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1234929&page=5 ryan22: distributed is just much better ryan22: git is hard too use though ryan22: i like bazaar ThomasHC: I've never used bazaar ryan22: svn and cvs just lead to politics over who gets commit access though ^CruX^: with abs even git is easy as an user... makepkg and youre done :p ryan22: ThomasHC: its very user-oriented maligor: I don't get it.. have you either used git? programble: Centralized version control is kinda phased out programble: Distributed VC like git is more popular now ryan22: maligor: i meant svn mplayer more so than svn itself a while back there ThomasHC: yeah ryan22: almost every major OSS project uses git, bazaar or mecurial ThomasHC: I like git ryan22: the only ones left with svn or cvs are the ones with egotistical dev teams ThomasHC: maligor, I have ryan22: centralized just doesnt make sense for a OSS project ^CruX^: Thats kinda why Torvalds' invented git... programble: indeed ryan22: man imagine the politics if the kernel uses svn ryan22: *used ryan22: :p ^CruX^: We'd have a kernel release every 2 years :p maligor: actually linus maintains the authoritative tree for linux, the politics would be the same ryan22: its already kinda bad, with the reiser thing maligor: it'd just be a pita to maintain ThomasHC: ryan22, whatabout reiser? ryan22: ya im trying to emulate the linux kernel approch with infinityos in regards to apps ryan22: email your app, and well test it for a week ThomasHC: yeah GNU\colossus: http://www.asus.de/product.aspx?P_ID=opD29qj5VZCwetPI - do you think that card's better than what the vanilla cooler/PCB design offers? ryan22: if it installs, opens, and stays open, well push it to testing ryan22: *stable ThomasHC: that's not a very good approach maligor: copper cooler? maligor: isn't the standard cooler the two slot type? ^CruX^: GNU\colossus: lol, this is the card im planning to buy, not in this version but anyways ThomasHC: ryan22, perhaps you should test more ThomasHC: or make an incoming repo ryan22: ThomasHC: reiser made an awesome fs, but it took forever to get added to the kernel cuz reiser was an ass maligor: ryan22, aha! so I shall make my malicious patches time delayed GNU\colossus: maligor: yup. I'd just like a silent, nearly inaudible cooling solution for my gf's next graphics card maligor: reiserfs had issues too s_20: reiser himself had issues too...... ryan22: reiser also killed his wife, which also killed support for his fs :P maligor: I've had catastrophic data failure with it maligor: the two times I used it ThomasHC: yeah.. ThomasHC: reiser3 is supposed to be under developement though ryan22: maligor: everything gets pushed to testing and then my team tests it and then it gets pushed to stable ThomasHC: ryan22, who all is your team? ryan22: week long testing windows ryan22: 3 ppl atm ryan22: its more than enough ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: I could help out. I'm more than willing ryan22: no prob ThomasHC: I have loads of free tiem hehe ThomasHC: *time ThomasHC: as in ryan22: well anyone has access to the test repo ThomasHC: Wake up at 11AM ThomasHC: go to bed at........4? ryan22: just only the core team can commit ThomasHC: :P ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: similar to git in ways ryan22: for secutiy reasons ThomasHC: yeah ryan22: not political ones ryan22: :p ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: hehe maligor: What rootkit? I didn't put it there ThomasHC: haha ryan22: lol excatly ThomasHC: hmm ryan22: i only push stuff to the stable kernel too ThomasHC: there is a guide to putting KDE 4 on CentOS 5 :P ryan22: *repo ryan22: mostly cuz packages pushed there will be pushed to like every computer running infinityos ThomasHC: yeah ryan22: centos still uses kde3? ryan22: thats pretty stable :P ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: be back later Sir_Brizz: does anyone have the Loki Games version of Rune? MPX: Sir_Brizz, what's the problem? Install errors? I don't have it ryan22: http://tinypic.com/r/2z6xa9k/6 :P ryan22: lol stereotypes Sir_Brizz: MPX I want to get it but I can't find anywhere to buy itr MPX: I see Sleepy_Coder: I want to play L4D2 with TF2 characters. Sleepy_Coder: weapons/characters Sleepy_Coder: Or have a TF2 conversion of L4D2 so it would look like TF2 but feel the same andar: team zombie fortress? RambJoe: steam for linux confirmed yet? mastertheknife: lol DeathCrawler: lol RambJoe: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1292386 Tazer: O: Tazer: Can't you get banned for posting about linux in the steam forums now? RambJoe: wtf? RambJoe: can you? RambJoe: who did? Tazer: I dunno dude, I'm just going along by what I've heard RambJoe: ah well they can ban me if they want Modplan: you can get banned for talking about piracy Modplan: not linux RambJoe: oh Tazer: o; Rednaxela: One probably *could* get banned while talking about linux.... if one posted in a spamish way I'd say RambJoe: lol strict mods RambJoe: its probably because it said banned under someones name who mentioned linux RambJoe: but they made an offensive post in another thread Rednaxela: Also, funny post there RambJoe, though I'd say you come off as a troll in the context of that thread Rednaxela: laughs RambJoe: lol RambJoe: I'll rep JasonM Rednaxela: Troll *and* sucking up? :P RambJoe: lol :P RambJoe: he has lower reps than me =/ dandel_: I need some help from someone familiar with the wine opengl source :/ (implementing a few features) Rednaxela: Yeah, but just saying, troll+suckup = not going to leave a good impression of linux users Rednaxela: shrugs Rednaxela: Check #winehq dandel_? :P dandel_: I'm in the dev channel RambJoe: i wish you could neg on steam forums lol Rednaxela: Ah RambJoe: why does that "achievements messages sexist" thread still exist... Rednaxela: RambJoe: Ah, just read that now.... that amuses me. It would be a valid complaint if there were female models in that game, but since there's not... RambJoe: lol xTCx: hmm xTCx: I'm going to attempt to convert chakra's packages to debs xTCx: and install them on ubuntu xTCx: who senses fail say aye? programble: aye xTCx: aye programble: how do you plan to take Arch pkgs and make debs exactly? xTCx: that's two xTCx: programble, alien Rednaxela: raises an AYEbrow xTCx: OR programble: alien does arch pkg? xTCx: tar and dpkg --build xTCx: I believe so RambJoe: is virtual box the best virtual machine programble: and xTCx: programble, either that or I'll do it manually programble: why exactly xTCx? Rednaxela: RambJoe, IMO it xTCx: programble, modular KDE xTCx: KDE on ubuntu SUCKS ASS programble: you know RambJoe: its really annoying how it keeps asking me to update programble: KDEmod is DESIGNED for Arch xTCx: mhm RambJoe: why don't they just update it in the repo programble: i don't think it will run on anything else Rednaxela: RambJoe, IMO it's the best free one for graphical use anyway. (Would say differently if it were headless server VMs in question) xTCx: oh it probably will xTCx: I mean xTCx: they don't make many changes actually programble: also xTCx: besides making it modular programble: in my experience programble: KDEmod is a bit buggy programble: and unstable Rednaxela: RambJoe: that's weird, I've never seen that. It's probably an issue with your distro's packaging I'd think xTCx: not to me RambJoe: ubuntu Rednaxela: just knows he doesn't have that in Arch RambJoe: A new version of VirtualBox has been released! Version 3.1.8 is available at virtualbox.org. RambJoe: i need to get my arch set up lol programble: ran KDEmod for a few days Rednaxela: probably a build option or something for whether it does that or not I think RambJoe Rednaxela: I'd suspect so anyway programble: it was pretty crappy RambJoe: um the link is for ubntu karmic xTCx: not for me xTCx: programble, I might install pacman on ubuntu RambJoe: maybe they haven't updated it for lucid lynx xTCx: and do it that way programble: xTCx: good luck with that RambJoe: ima try setting up arch again programble: xTCx: wait, why not just RUN arch xTCx: because I want to run ubuntu programble: WHY xTCx: I LIEK IT xTCx: *LIKE programble: why do you want to run shitbuntu? RambJoe: is it normal for arch setup to use /mnt xTCx: I LIKE IT RambJoe: it says nothing of it in the beginners guide xTCx: RambJoe, what do you mean? programble: RambJoe: yes....... it mounts your drive there... Rednaxela: RambJoe: Yes, that's what it does programble: then installs everything to /mnt RambJoe: oh ryan22: xTCx, if you can get kdemod working on ubuntu, ill make a separate repo for it to be used on infinityos RambJoe: as it tries to read all the config files from mnt Rednaxela: By default anyway, there might be a way to change it RambJoe: but they don't exist there programble: RambJoe: um... which config files? RambJoe: um xTCx: ryan22, nice! xTCx: ryan22, if it works at all it will be very hacked at first lol programble: has installed arch many times RambJoe: the ones in "configure system" on arch setup programble: RambJoe: those exist. ryan22: well it would be a separate PPA RambJoe: not in /mnt on mine xTCx: ryan22, yeah ryan22: optional until its stable RambJoe: they exist but not in /mnt :S programble: RambJoe: if they don't, you're doing something wrong xTCx: ryan22, I never could figure out ppas xTCx: lol Rednaxela: /mnt is the default mountpoint of the target drive in the Arch installer anyway programble: exactly programble: those files are put there when it installs everything RambJoe: oh RambJoe: oh i know what i did programble: what did you do? Rednaxela: Hm? RambJoe: i chrooted to / as i wanted to stop it using /mnt programble: ... Rednaxela: Ahhh programble: why? ryan22: xTCx: ill show you the art one day. its designed to be as complicated as possible programble: really, why? RambJoe: because i was confused i thought it wasn't meant to use /mnt lol programble: ...right RambJoe: right do i have to put all the folders on different partitions programble: dont have to RambJoe: should i just do auto xTCx: ryan22, Yeah, I've tried to make one but....it's really not easy and I became impatient lol programble: RambJoe: it is reccommended to have at least separate / and /home partitions Rednaxela: If you do auto it puts /boot and /home in separate partitions RambJoe programble: but you can put them all on one if you want RambJoe: ok ryan22: its a good filter. if youre making packages it better damn well be hard to release them to make sure you know what youre doing programble: doesn't have a /boot Rednaxela: Heh, I personally consider separating /boot and /, more useful than /home and / xTCx: ryan22, yeah I guess Rednaxela: Since I'm fairly prone to wanting to use root filesystems too new for grub mastertheknife: programble: /boot is the kernel's safe home :) programble: ha programble: mastertheknife: on my / partition programble: :P mastertheknife: I actually have /boot, / and /home mastertheknife: /boot being ext2, / and /home being ext4 xTCx: hmm Sleepy_Coder: good man. Sleepy_Coder: I wish I could try zfs though xTCx: I found a program that can convert arch packages to deb xTCx: that's the first step I guess Sleepy_Coder: I hear it's only a comfortable filesystem on solaris and freebsd programble: uses ext3 Sleepy_Coder: On Linux, because of licensing issues, it's through fusefs xTCx: writes python script to automate process and starts cloning the kdemod repo Rednaxela: I didn't do a separate / and /home because I didn't want to bother with the annoyance that would ensue if I had one getting full and not being able to resize easily. LVM helps it somewhat, but still programble: has heard too many stories of data loss with ext4 Sleepy_Coder: nou xTCx: programble, that was like a year+ ago Rednaxela: ext4 doesn't have data loss issues with current code and default settings programble: yeah, and i made these partitions a year+ ago xTCx: lol RambJoe: well both my 1.5tb and 1tb NTFS drivers have lost their data RambJoe: drives* programble: lol NTFS RambJoe: lol programble: did you DEFRAG? Sleepy_Coder: lolntfs Rednaxela: One thing I'm thinking about some day is the option of using btrfs, and using separate btrfs subvolumes, based in the same partition, for root and home Rednaxela: Hmm RambJoe: um i dunno think windows 7 did automatically RambJoe: but i barely ran windows xTCx: ryan22, I installed pacman on ubuntu just for testing. I'm gonna install kdemod with that and then try to make debs programble: have fun RambJoe: can you install debs on arch programble: no RambJoe: oh ryan22: i guess you could use smart programble: not without some hacking at least xTCx: ryan22, maybe xTCx: but I prefer to do it this way xTCx: :P RambJoe: wonder if steam linux will be .deb :( programble: besides, why would you even want to ryan22: lol ryan22: programble: the love of pure pain :P programble: there's that xTCx: that's me xTCx: :P Rednaxela: I've always found that .deb/.rpm builds that aren't distribution-official to be a pain. They just break too terribly when things change Rednaxela: Thus for things that can't be compiled from source... i prefer self-contained /opt binary installs that have no frequently-breaking external dependencies... heh programble: why can't compile from source? Rednaxela: "<RambJoe> wonder if steam linux will be .deb :(" Rednaxela: Doubt Steam will release Source ;) Daekdroom: I like PPAs.. Rednaxela: Talking about those and similar issues Daekdroom: Avulse .debs not targeted at a version? freaks me as much as svn and git programble: afk RambJoe: how would it work then if they dont relase source xTCx: here comes the pain! xTCx: :P xTCx: ryan22, It will probably be easier for me to compile KDE xTCx: XD xTCx: hmm... xTCx: downloads kde source code ryan22: Rednexela: PPAs at least require you to build using pbuilder. i don't trust straight .debs downloads from websites Rednaxela: ryan22, Yeah, that's basically my point Rednaxela: xTCx: I remember when I used Gentoo on a 200MHz box... it took a full week to build KDE ryan22: .debs made with debuild and checkinstall are the icky RambJoe: is gentoo good xTCx: Rednaxela, rofl, I've heard those stories before Rednaxela: Eh, I used to like Gentoo but I wouldn't recommend it anymore xTCx: hmm xTCx: I might do LFS tonight RambJoe: is it hard to set up Rednaxela: RambJoe: Only if you want to compile everything from source without doing LFS.... most advantages of Gentoo are had by Arch, without most of the disadvantages, heh Rednaxela: praises rolling release models xTCx: hehe RambJoe: oh i know why my drives are parittioned RambJoe: arch installer did that before lol, i thought resetingg the machine resetted that RambJoe: should i use ext4 on all partitions then Azalyn: /opt is definitely the right place for something like steam Azalyn: i'll be pissed if they don't put it there, or at least let you choose the install location. RambJoe: yeah they need to let you RambJoe: as some people like putting their games on other harddrives RambJoe: actaully on linux you could put /opt as another drives couldn't you? Azalyn: that is exactly what /opt is for. /opt is pretty much the only thing on linux that even remotely resembles C:\Program Files on windows. Sleepy_Coder: yes. Azalyn: and yeah, you can put any directory on any drive. RambJoe: :) Azalyn: you just mount a drive to any dir. Kano: RambJoe: it would be more logical when it would be installed in the user folder as it needs write access Kano: not in /opt Azalyn: they should put configuration in the user's home directory. Kano: but steam updates itself all the time RambJoe: um maybe i should have made /home my other drive Kano: same for firefox Kano: when you extract it in home it updates itself Azalyn: even windows now doesn't let anything write directly to program files without doing the whole UAC thing. RambJoe: i thought steam updates automaticall RambJoe: y ryan22: the games could be put in /var RambJoe: please, ryan22: with the excauable in /home Azalyn: ew.. why var? RambJoe: finally we can have games on a different drive to steam ryan22: cause its where user-modifible library and config files go RambJoe: you could always mount a drive to /opt/steam/steamapps amirite? Azalyn: an entire game goes far beyond a config file or user-modifiable library though... ryan22: its not excutable RambJoe: was there any hints at this in the linux client files? ryan22: its just a library file steams uses Azalyn: as for using ext4 on all partitions... heh, well, that's problematic. Azalyn: ext4 is a good filesystem, but the problem is that a lot of packages out there have broken behavior. Modplan: LGP games install to your home by default RambJoe: oh Azalyn: they do un-posix-y things that break on pretty much any filesystem that uses delayed allocation. RambJoe: ah well its only a virtual machine Modplan: and they have update functionality Azalyn: like gnome/kde seem to do it for a lot of their config files RambJoe: do filesystems even act different on virtual machines Azalyn: yes, they do. Azalyn: different than eachother i mean. RambJoe: um yup Azalyn: they shouldn't act different just from being in a vm though (like ext4 native partition vs ext4 in a virtual partition) RambJoe: nothing in /mnt/etc/rc.conf -.- RambJoe: should i cp /etc/* /mnt/etc/ Azalyn: but ext3 vs ext4 will be different than eachother in all situations usually, whether in a vm or not. RambJoe: oh Azalyn: in theory if you always power down your machine properly, and/or have a UPS. you should be fine with ext4 even given the broken packages that don't use it RambJoe: there is not etc in /mnt Azalyn: and worst case scenario, you can manually type 'sync' to make sure any important data you've written is synched to disk Azalyn: the latest versions of ext4 have some magic hacks in there to try and support even the broken apps out there that don't work right. Azalyn: according to the almighty all-knowing "phoronix test suite" though, apparently ext4 has been getting worse and worse, but i'm inclined to think that maybe the test suite itself is broken. :) RambJoe: sould grub be installed in /boot? Azalyn: or that it's performing tests that trigger the "magic hacks" that force syncing to disk. Azalyn: RambJoe: uh, i guess. or rather, /boot/grub is where the stage tarballs and config file and so on are located. Azalyn: the actual bootloader itself gets installed to your mbr afterwards RambJoe: no matter which partition i chose RambJoe: i get RambJoe: Error: Missing/Invalid root device: Azalyn: even thought Rednaxela recommended against gentoo. it might be wise to try doing a gentoo install at least once or something. Azalyn: since you seem to be a bit green at this. RambJoe: lol Azalyn: gentoo is good to gain some experience. RambJoe: isn't gentoo harder than arch Azalyn: since you do everything manually Daekdroom: Doesn't that mean it's even easier to break the system? Azalyn: he's doing it in a vm. Azalyn: to make an omelet, you need to break a few eggs. ;) Daekdroom: Well, it seems to me that doing gentoo on a VM misses it whole point.. xD Daekdroom: *its RambJoe: lol Azalyn: well, in this case, i'm suggesting it for the learning experience. RambJoe: could this problem have anything to do with stuff not being in /mnt? Daekdroom: Doesn't sound a bad idea to me given how scared I am of SVN and Git Azalyn: i would think someone who is doing a gentoo install, and reading the gentoo handbook in detail, probably wouldn't be asking questions like "where do i install grub" RambJoe: lol Rednaxela: Azalyn: Oh I think a gentoo install is educational for sure, I just wouldn't want to use it as my main install anymore :) Daekdroom: What is stage 3 for? Azalyn: /mnt isn't supposed to have anything except for a few directories like maybe "cdrom" and the like. Azalyn: and by default they aren't mounted to anything Azalyn: /etc is it's own top level directory. RambJoe: this is confusing as the arch setup tries to find everythign in /mnt when it doesn't exist there lol Azalyn: well, if it mounted the livecd there... Azalyn: then it would make sense. RambJoe: but shouldn't all that data be on the livecd :S Azalyn: yes, but in theory it would have to be mounted. Azalyn: not really sure what you're currently doing.. or how you're going about it, or how far you are in the process. Azalyn: and the last time i installed arch was like 2 years ago maybe... RambJoe: um just gave up on grub RambJoe: now its stuck like this Azalyn: sighs Azalyn: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1 RambJoe: http://i.imgur.com/IM1wy.png Azalyn: the whole guide on one page. Azalyn: and it links you to the install discs and what not. so no problem. RambJoe: after i booted from /boot/vmlinuz26 Azalyn: heh, maybe you specified the wrong path RambJoe: :( RambJoe: i'll start again Azalyn: if /boot is it's own partition, then in grub you wouldn't say /boot/blah RambJoe: but mounting the ISo Rednaxela: Heh, VirtualBox: The most risk free way to learn to install Azalyn: you'd say 'blah RambJoe: instead of buring to disc lol RambJoe: oh Azalyn: Rednaxela: a second box also works :D RambJoe: so i just made it even more confusing lol Rednaxela: RambJoe: Shouldn't make a difference, except that mounting the ISO will have better performance RambJoe: i will do that then :) Rednaxela: and yeah, that about /boot is fun to remember RambJoe: um RambJoe: where did my iso go lol RambJoe: ah found xTCx: FINALLY xTCx: got pacman running on ubuntu Azalyn: in practice though, they usually symlink boot to . Azalyn: xTCx: ....... why..? xTCx: Azalyn, Bored, so I'ma install kdemod xTCx: Azalyn, and I like pain Azalyn: yawns Rednaxela: xTCx: Heh... be careful with two package systems at once... since they won't detect conflicts and dependencies between the two Azalyn: you're all BORING me. so i'm going to go take an eight hour (or so) nap. xTCx: Rednaxela, I know :P xTCx: begins installing kdemod Azalyn: watches xTCx's computer explode xTCx: Azalyn, I have to reinstall anyways xTCx: :P xTCx: it should be ok xTCx: somewhat xTCx: I'm removing KDE/QT Sleepy_Coder: XD xTCx: ok it's downloading xTCx: 286MB xTCx: I commented out the arch default repos xTCx: i only got a few dep errors and ubuntu's repos had most of them Daekdroom: It doesn't feel right to mix a rolling release with ubuntu's repo o.o xTCx: haha xTCx: I'll brb xTCx: testing xTCx: :P Daekdroom: Will you brb? :P xTCx: maybe xTCx: :P xTCx: brb RambJoe: what should /dev/sda be mounted to dashcloud: probably / (it is your first hard drive right?) Azalyn: facepalms RambJoe: rofl RambJoe: but /dev/sda1 goes to / RambJoe: so should /dev/sda go there too Azalyn: you don't mount /dev/sda ... RambJoe: oh didn't think so but i have to do that to set a file type in the arch isntall Azalyn: you don't mount drives. you mount partitions ThomasHC: well ThomasHC: that didn't work ThomasHC: stupid kstartupconfig ThomasHC: :P Daekdroom: Is 192MB RAM enough for a Gentoo VM? ThomasHC: should be ThomasHC: but compiling in a VM :O Daekdroom: I'm doing it for the experience. Daekdroom: and for the lulz too ThomasHC: lol Daekdroom: I'm free to break it trying whatever I want Daekdroom: Every noob's dream Daekdroom: Oh lord. No bootsplash. Daekdroom: Actually, it feels good to see the text scrolling.. ThomasHC: haha ThomasHC: I'm going to install arch from my ubuntu install ThomasHC: using a chroot ThomasHC: I have to build the chroot first... ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: fun :P RambJoe: wait a minute RambJoe: why is /dev/sda1 mounted to /mnt -.- viridari: o_O RambJoe: what that explain my problems lol ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: I'm installing arch ThomasHC: from ubuntu ThomasHC: in a chroot ThomasHC: this is very interesting RambJoe: lol ThomasHC: it seems to give me more control ThomasHC: because I can google things ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: shouldnt have to thoughgh ThomasHC: installed it a thousand times RambJoe: ThomasHC, is it right if /dev/sda1 is mounted on /mnt RambJoe: and /dev/sda2 on /mnt/boot etc ThomasHC: is /dev/sda1 the proposed / ? RambJoe: yes ThomasHC: and is /dev/sda2 the proposed /boot ? RambJoe: its the arch setup, it seems it mounts everything to /mnt RambJoe: yeah RambJoe: when i configure the block stuff RambJoe: wierd it does that seeing as it doesn't put anything in the /mnt drives ThomasHC: that should be right ThomasHC: it will install all of the packages to /mnt as the root ThomasHC: I'm doing the same thing, just manually RambJoe: oh RambJoe: but when its done will it still be in mnt ThomasHC: the packages? the packages will form a new rootfs ThomasHC: and once the install is done ThomasHC: you can reboot RambJoe: like will / still be /mnt/ and will /boot be /mnt/boot RambJoe: and should i copy all the files from / to /mnt ThomasHC: you are on the installer right? RambJoe: yeah ThomasHC: you dont have to manually do anything ThomasHC: just let the installer do it's thing RambJoe: yeah but thats the problem RambJoe: it tries to find the config files etc RambJoe: in /mnt/etc ThomasHC: what do you mean? RambJoe: but they are actually in /etc RambJoe: the setup RambJoe: you know step 6, configure system ThomasHC: uhh ThomasHC: the config files should be in /mnt/etc RambJoe: with like /etc/rc.conf RambJoe: they're not RambJoe: they're in /etc ThomasHC: are you sure? ThomasHC: normally, the arch installer knows what it is doing ThomasHC: so I just advise you to let it do it's thing RambJoe: well when i look at the files with nano RambJoe: they are all empty ThomasHC: have you completed step 6? RambJoe: um every file is empty ThomasHC: ahh ThomasHC: hmm ThomasHC: I would restart the install ThomasHC: reboot RambJoe: i've done that loads lol ThomasHC: you did something wrong ThomasHC: follow the beginners guide ThomasHC: hmm ThomasHC: I'm not sure then RambJoe: what could have i done :S ThomasHC: read the beginners guide? ThomasHC: checked out #archlinux ? RambJoe: ok RambJoe: the beginnners guide doesn't meantion mnt RambJoe: what if i copied all the files into mnt ThomasHC: uhh you can try RambJoe: what would the wild card be RambJoe: for copying all of / except mnt ThomasHC: uhh ThomasHC: just copy each individual file RambJoe: ok ThomasHC: the config files RambJoe: but i think why it keeps failing is it needs all the other files ThomasHC: that's why you copy them ThomasHC: cp /etc/<file-here> /mnt/etc/ RambJoe: what about cp / /mnt RambJoe: or would that like cause some infinite loop problem ThomasHC: that would be overkill RambJoe: as it would keep repeating the mnt bit RambJoe: what if i mounted the cd drive to /mnt? ThomasHC: don't... RambJoe: oh ryan22: im not sure if any of you are canadian, but a member of the cabinet just got the canadian DMCA toned right down: http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5080/125/ RambJoe: i hate the arch installer -.- ThomasHC: it hates you too RambJoe: i know :( ThomasHC: :P ThomasHC: #archlinux ? ThomasHC: try there ThomasHC: it's not as bad as debian IRC RambJoe: they ignored me ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: well ThomasHC: in debian IRC ThomasHC: they'd flame you ThomasHC: and DDoS you RambJoe: lol programble: dude programble: arch installer is fuck easy ThomasHC: lol? programble: just follow the guide RambJoe: but it hates me lol programble: you n00b ThomasHC: programble, it depends on how good you look RambJoe: the guide doesn't mention /mnt ThomasHC: programble, fuck you, you are a n00b too ThomasHC: :P programble: RambJoe: DONT WORRY ABOUT IT programble: WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT /mnt???????? programble: ThomasHC: I have installed arch several times ThomasHC: programble, I have installed it several hundred times ThomasHC: lol programble: lies RambJoe: because the installer makes everything to mnt ThomasHC: I'm serious RambJoe: but the files it needs aren't there programble: WHY NOT? programble: cuz YOU fucked with it? RambJoe: i dunno what i did programble: ... programble: just follow the damn guide to the letter programble: works out fine RambJoe: like /etc and stuff isn't in /mnt RambJoe: ok programble: well thats a huge problem programble: that is obviously your own fault programble: so the installer doesn't hate you ThomasHC: RambJoe, have you installed the packages? programble: its just getting revenge programble: for when you raped it RambJoe: lol RambJoe: yeah i did but i have to keep starting over ryan22: lol maybe you should try this in a vm first RambJoe: i am lol programble: its programble: not programble: hard ryan22: lol im doing a LFS build for my thesis so maybe i should try out arch sometime, just as practice programble: go down the list in order and dont touch anything else programble: ryan22: arch is piss easy... RambJoe: that is pretty much what i was doing programble: maybe not for ubun... programble: RambJoe: pretty much? ryan22: well i kind of have partitioned out my hd and installed my bootloader manually ryan22: so its shouldn't be too bad for me i guess RambJoe: um actaulyl except i mounted a partition to /boot not /var, as the installer said i should mount something to /boot but the wiki didn't tell me to ryan22: eh this why you get 10 different sources RambJoe: sources? ryan22: btw i find the documentation for arch usually awesome ryan22: much better than ubuntu's ryan22: and much more organized than gentoo's programble: RambJoe: waitwut ryan22: RambJoe: like 10 different guides. cuz odds are at least one skipped something that you wont find obvious RambJoe: ohh ryan22: and like keep in tabs in firefox and follow each one ryan22: and make sense of the differences yourself programble: arch you just do the beginners guidwe ryan22: keep in mind i am used to ubuntu :P ThomasHC: I am used to...linux ThomasHC: I am running a ubuntu/arch hybrid atm ThomasHC: lol ryan22: lol programble: the arch taste good ThomasHC: could never get KDE to start... ThomasHC: lol programble: the ubuntu taste like shit ryan22: ThomasHC: its a pigeonrat ThomasHC: ryan22, hmm? ryan22: on its belly :P ThomasHC: haha ryan22: simpsons ref RambJoe: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Official_Install_Guide_%28PPC%29#Mount_chroot ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: RambJoe, why the FUCK are you using the official install guide? ThomasHC: I dont think anyone understands that shit programble: use beginners guide ThomasHC: just use the beginners guide ThomasHC: lol RambJoe: but that didn't help lol RambJoe: it didn't explain the mnt shit ryan22: i do... programble: RambJoe: cuz you dont fucking need to know the mnt shit ThomasHC: ryan22, it's not very efficient ThomasHC: lol programble: thats why its not explained RambJoe: lol ryan22: well if you understand what the commands actually do ryan22: its pretty good ThomasHC: ryan22, I do understand ThomasHC: lol RambJoe: i said before though the files it needs aren't in mnt, like /mnt/etc/rc.conf doesn't exist ThomasHC: "hardly anyone" ryan22: thats thats like a pretty big requirement :P ThomasHC: ryan22, I'm manually installing arch atm ThomasHC: :P ryan22: lol ryan22: trying a making a live cd via remastersys via dist mode ryan22: hehe ThomasHC: I have ryan22: and making sure all your customizations are in tact and dont fuck shit ThomasHC: ryan22, I was using remasterys in the Ubuntu Gutsy days ryan22: lol programble: RambJoe: then you did something wrong ThomasHC: ryan22, how long have you been using linux? ryan22: ive been unix for quite some time ryan22: but linux h-core, since around january ryan22: i have a mac programble: can't remember how long programble: hasnt been all that long ThomasHC: unix =! os x ThomasHC: :P programble: i be fast learner though ryan22: nope ThomasHC: programble, same ryan22: i love telling mac fanboys that ThomasHC: I was making my own customized ubuntu spins with custom kernels when I was 12 ThomasHC: lol RambJoe: http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3743/uploadhv.jpg RambJoe: on that menu it shows /dev/sda as well lol wut programble: ThomasHC: i was hacking VB when i was 12 lol ryan22: and hearing them scream: http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=119566&page=8 ThomasHC: programble, lol ryan22: i love how the old-timer unix guy complains about linux being made by "unix hobbists" ThomasHC: I was learning python programble: well you know ryan22: its like guess who made your goddamn compolier and c library programble: once i got passed the barrier that was windows programble: i picked up speed programble: now i am leet ThomasHC: haha ThomasHC: ryan22, they had compilers before that ThomasHC: and ThomasHC: gnu =! linux ThomasHC: GNU is COMPLETELY a different concept ryan22: well does anyone really use pcc anymore ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: :P Modplan: IT'S GNU/LINUX FOR IF MY BEARD ISN'T FREE SOFTWARE ryan22: or reg libc Modplan: CALLED* programble: lol ThomasHC: lol Modplan ryan22: lol ThomasHC: ryan22, how old are you? ryan22: 21 RambJoe: tomorrow i will try with just swap and / partitions programble: ryan22: /nick ryan21 ryan22: lol ThomasHC: hahaha ryan21: :P ThomasHC: hands ryan22 ubuntu flavored alcohol ThomasHC: * ryan21 ThomasHC: :P programble: aw damn ryan21: lol well where i live i could drink wehn i was 19 so :P programble: now your nick is a different color ThomasHC: ryan21, lol, well I'm american :P programble: ThomasHC: by ubuntu flavored, you mean shit? ThomasHC: and programble is a poser ThomasHC: aka canadian ThomasHC: programble, duh ryan21: lol programble: hey programble: dont insult canada ThomasHC: lol.. programble: legal drinking age in quebec is 18 Modplan: who else will we blame? ThomasHC: Modplan, exactly programble: thats the only reason qubec is good ThomasHC: programble, but if you arent french they shoot you ryan21: good joke: what's the difference between canadians and americans? ryan21: we like to share programble: or gang bang ryan21: and don't get sued for it ThomasHC: and most of them are only french 200 years down the line programble: imeanwut ThomasHC: lol programble: french guys are ugly ryan21: man i once went to a small town quebec town programble: french girls are ok now programble: but in 10 years ryan21: rivere-du-loop programble: they will be ugly whores ryan21: i kept the phone book ThomasHC: lol? ryan21: its hilarious cuz each page is a single name ThomasHC: LOL programble: brb ryan21: they were like all related ryan21: and like literally looked the same ryan21: :P ryan21: not that i have anything against quebec ryan21: montreal is awesome ryan21: and quebec city is beautiful Modplan: everbody looks the same to me, regardless of race, nationality or gender ryan21: eh not really ryan21: i like colour and vareity ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: ryan21, where you from? ryan21: thunder bay ryan21: but i live in peterborough, which is torontoish ryan21: i come from canadian siberia programble: lives in a suburb of montreal ryan21: ThomasHC: you? ThomasHC: Florida ryan21: programble: montreal looks great from the via rail train ThomasHC: Exact opposite ThomasHC: :P programble: lol ryan21: heh you get all our old ppl ryan21: and canadian geese programble: geese programble: stupid migrators ThomasHC: ryan21, I live on the georgia/florida border ThomasHC: so we just got rednecks ThomasHC: lol programble: have to quack about it ryan21: they shit like dogs too ThomasHC: lol... ryan21: and hiss at you programble: QUACK QUACK WE BE MIGRATIN QUACK riisen: o.O programble: oh yeah ThomasHC: LOL programble: that happened ryan21: those things are scary programble: went to canada's wonderland recently programble: was eatin some DQ right programble: in a little place with tables programble: and some geese walk in programble: so one of my friends goes up to one programble: and it hissed programble: those things are evil programble: evil! ryan21: the lil babies are so cute programble: also programble: those black birds with the red tips on their wings programble: holy fuck ryan21: but like stay the fuck away cuz they will attack ThomasHC: lol... programble: they hang around amusement parks and attack gingers ryan21: lol ThomasHC: LMFAO ryan21: damn gingers ThomasHC: ryan21, programble is one ThomasHC: XD ryan21: lol programble: fuckin gingers ThomasHC: lol.. programble: soulless fuckers programble: anyway ThomasHC: ROFL programble: those birds programble: they fuckin want to kill us ThomasHC: lol.... programble: it came at my head programble: if i hadnt been wearing a hat programble: ... ryan21: lol ThomasHC: lol... programble: but now ive figured them out programble: i have developed reflexes to them now ThomasHC: lmfao... ryan21: lol programble: so i was sitting at a table programble: i turn around ryan21: you need this to live in canada btw programble: (this all happens in slow motion in my memory) ryan21: were ones with nature programble: and see this bird programble: on top of the garbage can programble: it takes off programble: and just as it does ThomasHC: ryan21, I live around 15 lakes programble: i pull a matrix move programble: and duck ThomasHC: and there is a swamp 20 minutes from here ryan21: lol programble: and it passes an inch over my head ThomasHC: we have had alligators in my front yard, ryan21 programble: and into the tree in front of me ryan21: man you have no idea how many times ive been asked about igloos by goddamn minnisodians ThomasHC: ryan21, has your igloo melted yet? ThomasHC: I here's it's getting warm up ther ThomasHC: *hear ThomasHC: :P ryan21: no we dont live in igloos, we are like a 30 min drive from the border (thunder bay) ryan21: its lime 30*C ThomasHC: lol programble: also programble: if i did programble: yes programble: it would melt Modplan: ryan21 do you fish through holes in ice? ThomasHC: a low sumer temp here is 75 F at night, ryan21 programble: it was fuckin 32 degrees celsius the other day programble: not your igloo weather ryan21: though back home it was like -35*C during xmas ThomasHC: :O ryan21: my firends iphone forze over and never worked again programble: ryan21: ah, nice ThomasHC: ryan21, holy shit ThomasHC: it hardly ever gets below 0 C/32 F here programble: pfft ryan21: it takes our cars (back home) like 5 min to heat up enough to actually start in the winter programble: -30 is a nice breeze lol programble: im kidding programble: -30 is death ryan21: it is ryan21: you walk outside and your nose freezes programble: yeah ThomasHC: O_o programble: love that feeling ThomasHC: has never experienced it ThomasHC: but then again programble: dont have to blow your nose anymore programble: its frozen! ryan21: and then it starts melting due to sciondensation ThomasHC: farthest north I've been is Baltimore, Mayland or Youngstown, Ohio ThomasHC: *Maryland ryan21: and you get like water all over your neck warmer ryan21: annoying as hell ThomasHC: lol ryan21: *condensation programble: heh programble: neck warmers programble: they barely even warm your neck ryan21: i hate those things programble: anyways programble: i g2g programble: bye ryan21: cya programble: cya tomorrow ryan21: but ya i mock people from toronto when they say its cold :P ryan21: ThomasHC: so have you gotten kdemod to work yet? ThomasHC: no ThomasHC: I gave up ThomasHC: :P ThomasHC: I came to the conclusion that installing kdemod with pacman on ubuntu was probably not a good idea ThomasHC: :P ThomasHC: hehe ryan21: lol ryan21: well it would be a good idea to get the debian guys to look at what they did ryan21: http://infoworld.com/d/developer-world/html5-vs-flash-the-case-flash-721 ThomasHC: OR ThomasHC: just use their packages ThomasHC: that works ThomasHC: :P ryan21: well if you wanna to make a ppa and backport kde from debian, im not going to stop you ThomasHC: I'ma TRY ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: it wouldn't really be backporting ThomasHC: downgrading? mhm ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: hmm ThomasHC: I wonder how I could make it more modular though ThomasHC: I'd need to compile it ThomasHC: I'll ask the chakra guys how they did it ThomasHC: I've talked to them a few times ryan21: the debian guys seem to like to like me too so i could help ryan21: mostly cuz i hate ubuntu as much as they do ;) ryan21: i try to help out on the debian irc channel ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: debian irc is a horrid place ThomasHC: or was the last time I visited ryan21: well i try to be helpful ThomasHC: have they stopped the flaming, n00b calling, refusal of help, and ddoses? ThomasHC: XD ryan21: some of the guys just make things needless complicated though ryan21: i think ryan21: i havent been ddosed ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: :P ThomasHC: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Debian#Debian_IRC_support ThomasHC: :P ThomasHC: hmm I asked on the chakra dev channel ThomasHC: awaiting a response ryan21: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Cg5ngJaYM ryan21: oh man... ryan21: ThomasHC: haha ThomasHC: :P ThomasHC: hehe ThomasHC: ryan21, http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080718134815/uncyclopedia/images/2/24/BillGatesUbuntuLinux.png ryan21: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Vi ryan21: "This article best viewed with Emacs, if you have at least 8 TiB of RAM and can wait for it to load." ThomasHC: lol... ryan21: OMG the "False Prophet Stallman" ThomasHC: hahaha ThomasHC: :P ryan21: Users of Vim, a new version of vi written by Raptor Jesus partly because of the blasphemous Roman Catholic version of vi, but mostly because it can be used to instantly kill any Emacs user within 20 yards, are not held by the churches' ridiculous traditions, and are therefore 10 times as productive as anyone else.\ ryan21: lol editor wars... ThomasHC: lol.. ThomasHC: ryan21, I'm curious, why do you hate gnome? ryan21: i love the gnome apps ThomasHC: but? ryan21: i dont find the gnome wm all that configurable ThomasHC: it is ThomasHC: if you know where to look :P ThomasHC: gconf, my friend ryan21: xfce is just much cleaner design ThomasHC: I dislike XFCE ryan21: and gconf is registry blasphemy ThomasHC: it looks chilidish, clunky ThomasHC: ryan21, pretty sure xfce uses it too ryan21: nope ThomasHC: at least partly ThomasHC: but ryan21: it uses plain old text files like god intended ThomasHC: gconf is a very, very nice thing ThomasHC: those are slow and not very friendly ThomasHC: fro ma programmers view point ryan21: and all the config is in xml in like one directory ThomasHC: to access gconf, it's really easy ThomasHC: a lot easier than parsing xml ThomasHC: :P ryan21: plus i just like the utilites better ThomasHC: I guess ryan21: its a personall preference ThomasHC: Gnome is overall nicer and more functional in my opinion ThomasHC: but ThomasHC: I'm mainly a KDE user ryan21: and im open to people making gnome and kde versions of infinityOS ThomasHC: except for recently ThomasHC: ryan21, I could make a kde version. or a gnome version. doesn't matter ryan21: just like make a gnome and kde ppa and go at err ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: eah ThomasHC: *yeah ryan21: hell if they work ill offically saction them ThomasHC: haha ryan21: mainline will be xfce though ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: I've tried XFCE loads ThomasHC: never really clicked with it ryan21: its just more apporate for new users ryan21: gnome has too much... stuff ThomasHC: not really ryan21: it shows you too much at once ThomasHC: hmm ThomasHC: XFCE shows me not _enough_ at once ThomasHC: lol ryan21: and you cant really ustomize the panel or desktop neraly as much as xfce ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: well like I said ThomasHC: modify gconf ThomasHC: lots of options ThomasHC: they just aren't out in the open ThomasHC: not really hidden ryan21: i shouldn;t have to modify gconf to customize my panel and desktop... ThomasHC: You don't have to ThomasHC: but the thing is ThomasHC: XFCE shows users too many options ThomasHC: I find myself searching through twenty different apps to find out what I need ThomasHC: with the customization ryan21: which is why i use the gnome apps ThomasHC: I meant the XFCE configuration apps ryan21: theres a control panel you know ThomasHC: I know ThomasHC: That's what I'm talking about ThomasHC: XD ryan21: lol well its not as bad as kde ThomasHC: well.... ryan21: but eh, its a personall pref ThomasHC: KDE does a better job of it :P ThomasHC: but you are talking to a huge KDE fan so... ThomasHC: :P ryan21: if you want kde or gnome make a ppa and go at err ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: so, infinity doesn't use ubuntu's repos? ryan21: it does ThomasHC: ahh ThomasHC: wait brb ThomasHC: booting arch Tazer: so uh Tazer: where's Valve's Mac update this week> DonScott: points to Valvetime Tazer: TwT ThomasHC: hmm ThomasHC: stupid grub ryan21: grub 2.0 or grub 1.0 ryan21: 2.0 is a pain ThomasHC: ... ThomasHC: 2.0 is great ThomasHC: dude ThomasHC: you have problems with every modern element of the linux desktop ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: and it's not grubs fault btw ryan21: lol well what do you expect ThomasHC: I dunno ThomasHC: sanity? ryan21: im a distro maintainer. im supposed to hate evrything ThomasHC: I've made SEVERAL distros ThomasHC: none of them really went anywhere but were stable ThomasHC: :P ryan21: lol ThomasHC: seeing as I'm poor ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: I was making distros before I could legally work! ryan21: well im hoping mine takes off once it gets on distrowatch ThomasHC: it may ThomasHC: or bust ryan21: i got like 100 download the days it was a tiny link on the weekly newsletter ThomasHC: but it seems like Element Linux has a lot in common with infinity ryan21: it doesn;t have focus ryan21: and its ugly ThomasHC: whatcha mean? ThomasHC: actually ThomasHC: no offense ThomasHC: looks better than infinity to me ThomasHC: :P ryan21: they like turned on compiz till the last revision ryan21: and didnt include hardware drivers ryan21: aks jockey ThomasHC: lol ThomasHC: well I dunno ThomasHC: never tried it :P ryan21: i did ryan21: it what was like cool so you like included xbmc and vlc with ubuntu ryan21: didnt even change the fonts or anything ThomasHC: huh? ThomasHC: engrish alert ThomasHC: lol ryan21: they like use firefox as the browser so you cant read the screen (firefox doesnt respect dpi settings) ryan21: the general idea was nice ThomasHC: lol ryan21: i use epiphany cause it does Rednaxela: Chrome annoys me in that it doesn't respect DPI either Rednaxela: except that it's 'assumed DPI' is different still ryan21: everything should like respect gtk+ settings ryan21: its not all that hard Rednaxela: Yeah Rednaxela: Particularly considering both Chrome and FF use gtk (in parts) ThomasHC: Firefox, by default doesn't ThomasHC: mozilla I mean ThomasHC: :P ryan21: chrome is bit better as it respects the anti-aliasing ryan21: *a ThomasHC: that's why firefox is not quite integrated with Gnome ryan21: firefox is like an os on its own ryan21: complete with mp3 player ryan21: *cough* songbird ThomasHC: that's not officila though ThomasHC: it just uses XUL ThomasHC: which is different ryan21: eh ThomasHC: besides ThomasHC: songbird on linux is no more ryan21: it is a strawman ThomasHC: ? ryan21: nightingale lives though ThomasHC: yeah ThomasHC: does it have a web page or anything yet? ThomasHC: I've only heard about it ryan21: i think it does ryan21: i use banshee ryan21: though i may switch. they should rewrite banshee in vala ThomasHC: why? ThomasHC: C# is nice ryan21: c# is nice. but runtimes are bleh Rednaxela: Hm, Vala... I once read about Vala... ThomasHC: Mono is also very nice Rednaxela: Looked like a neat concept... but... seemed like far too immature a project for major use ryan21: it seems like all the mono apps are being written in it ryan21: its become a lot more stable ryan21: apps actually use it now ryan21: *rewritten ThomasHC: lol ryan21: i really like pino and deja-dup Rednaxela: Heh, I'd trust in the credibility of Vala more in some ways if non-Gnome projects were seriously considering it ThomasHC: yeah ryan21: well its mainly a replacement for mono ThomasHC: Rednaxela, whatcha mean? ryan21: and is heavily gobject based Rednaxela: ThomasHC, Honestly, I don't like the idea of committing a one-platform language essentially ThomasHC: Well, I think there is another C# implementation ryan21: alot of pain gtk apps are using vala ryan21: *plain ThomasHC: I like Mono, a lot ryan21: monodevelop's debugger is crap ThomasHC: meh ThomasHC: uses nano Rednaxela: Hm, that's one thing I'd wonder about: How well GDB works on Vala programs ryan21: it works quite well i believe ryan21: theres quite a few ides that have vala completion too ryan21: *autocompletion ThomasHC: I might check out vala though ryan21: its not very integrated imo though Rednaxela: Hmm... checking up on it's web site, Vala does look like it's definitely matured some since I last looked Rednaxela: (Honestly, kind of looked like a dead project when I last looked) ThomasHC: same </div> <h1><a href="?page=irc">< Phoronix IRC Home</a></h1> </div></div> <div id="phxcms_right_menu"> <div class="phxcms_nav_header">Latest Hardware Reviews</div><ol><li><a href="http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=18726" title="Sumo Lounge Emperor">Sumo Lounge Emperor</a></li><li><a href="http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=18717" title="Gallium3D Continues Improving OpenGL For Older Radeon GPUs">Gallium3D Continues Improving OpenGL For Older Radeon GPUs</a></li><li><a href="http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=18688" title="15-Way Open vs. Closed Source NVIDIA/AMD Linux GPU Comparison">15-Way Open vs. Closed Source NVIDIA/AMD Linux GPU Comparison</a></li><li><a href="http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=18664" title="Nouveau vs. NVIDIA Linux Comparison Shows Shortcomings">Nouveau vs. NVIDIA Linux Comparison Shows Shortcomings</a></li></ol> <div class="phxcms_nav_header">Latest Software Articles</div><ol><li><a href="http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=18733" title="Intel Linux OpenGL Driver Leading Over Apple OS X">Intel Linux OpenGL Driver Leading Over Apple OS X</a></li><li><a href="http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=18731" title="The Cost Of Ubuntu Disk Encryption">The Cost Of Ubuntu Disk Encryption</a></li><li><a href="http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=18720" title="Btrfs vs. EXT4 vs. XFS vs. F2FS On Linux 3.10">Btrfs vs. EXT4 vs. XFS vs. F2FS On Linux 3.10</a></li><li><a href="http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=18709" title="AMD Radeon R600 GPU LLVM 3.3 Back-End Testing">AMD Radeon R600 GPU LLVM 3.3 Back-End Testing</a></li></ol> <div class="phxcms_nav_header">Latest Linux News</div><ol><li><a href="?page=news_item&px=MTM3Nzk" title="KDE 4.11 Will Be The Last Major KDE4 Workspaces Feature Release">KDE 4.11 Will Be The Last Major KDE4 Workspaces Feature Release</a></li><li><a href="?page=news_item&px=MTM3Nzg" title="New NVIDIA Linux Driver Supports The GeForce GTX 780">New NVIDIA Linux Driver Supports The GeForce GTX 780</a></li><li><a href="?page=news_item&px=MTM3Nzc" title="Chrome 28 To Offer More Speed Improvements">Chrome 28 To Offer More Speed Improvements</a></li><li><a href="?page=news_item&px=MTM3NzY" title="Digia Announces "Boot To Qt" Project">Digia Announces "Boot To Qt" Project</a></li><li><a href="?page=news_item&px=MTM3NzU" title="X.Org Libraries Hit By Round Of Security Issues">X.Org Libraries Hit By Round Of Security Issues</a></li><li><a href="?page=news_item&px=MTM3NzM" title="Wayland's Weston Gets Output Scaling Support">Wayland's Weston Gets Output Scaling Support</a></li><li><a href="?page=news_item&px=MTM3NzI" title="Raspberry Pi Gets New Wayland Weston Renderer">Raspberry Pi Gets New Wayland Weston Renderer</a></li><li><a href="?page=news_item&px=MTM3NzA" title="Debian GNU/Hurd 2013 Release Brings New Packages">Debian GNU/Hurd 2013 Release Brings New Packages</a></li><li><a href="?page=news_item&px=MTM3Njk" title="Intel Ultrabook Performance Is Faster With Mesa 9.2">Intel Ultrabook Performance Is Faster With Mesa 9.2</a></li><li><a href="?page=news_item&px=MTM3Njg" title="Hot Relocation HDD To SSD Support For Btrfs">Hot Relocation HDD To SSD Support For Btrfs</a></li><li><a href="?page=news_item&px=MTM3Njc" title="Phoronix Test Suite 4.6.0 "Utsira" Released">Phoronix Test Suite 4.6.0 "Utsira" Released</a></li></ol> <div class="phxcms_nav_int"> <script type="text/javascript"> var googletag = googletag || {}; 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