Phoronix IRC Log: 2010-06-01
MPX: Hello valve are ya listening :D
MPX: Funny, I had to check the date to see if it was the 1st of april :O
s_20: MPX: hard to imagine google would be too thrilled to have steam installed on its work computers ;)
MPX: Any PR for Linux is good Pr?
mastertheknife: MPX: Interesting :)
Azalyn: [05:35:26] Funny, I had to check the date to see if it was the 1st of april :O
Azalyn: *really* ? you did?
Azalyn: you think it's *that* surprising that a company like google, *google*, would switch all their shit to linux?
Azalyn: if there were only one company in the world that would ever do such a thing, it would be google.
Azalyn: they've been promoting linux and opensource since day one. :|
Azalyn: and giving the finger to microsoft.
Azalyn: the fact that they've been using windows for *anything* this long is more surprising than the fact that they are finally switching.
mastertheknife: Yeah, they are interested in giving the middle finger to microsoft
meGenius: what is the best VPN server??
meGenius: openVPN seems good, but, it seems complex
MPX: Azalyn, Yes *really* I think it IS surprising
MPX: MACOSX secure?
MPX: Last time I checked, microsoft gave out a good os this time
MPX: where is it *not* surprising?
MPX: And they have been giving the finger to microsoft all the time?
MPX: That's funny
MPX: Last time I checked most recent updates of picasa, google gadgets and whatnot was on windows, and not linux
MPX: Actually, did you forget the time it took for Chrome being ported to Linux?
meGenius: Google keeps the linux at the last of its list, MPX
meGenius: at least the linux users, not the linux developers
MPX: meGenius, I'm just responding to what Azalyn said about what I said : http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/31/google-said-to-be-moving-away-from-windows-internally-mac-and-l/
mikeplus64: What they use internally doesn't have much relevance to what they target with their software.
MPX: Well, it's a move in the right direction
meGenius: MPX: it's a security move
mikeplus64: ( within the constraints of whatever they use internally, that is )
meGenius: it doesn't mean that they are going to develop programs to linux & mac before windows
meGenius: they still like windows more
meGenius: till now all Google programs are just ported, they are not linux native
MPX: meGenius, your saying that switching to macosx is a security move? I gotta agree with one of the commenters saying that on a hacker convention, mac osx always gets taken down first
Ivanovic: MPX: for a simple reason: they tend to offer the hacked device as bounty
Ivanovic: MPX: and i'd guess that the resale value of the mac books or whatever they offer there is highest
MPX: I don't think that would stop the chinese government
Ivanovic: why should it stop them?
Ivanovic: it does only make things a little more interesting, they have to break more than just relying on some internet explorer bug
MPX: I doubt that google made this call to make things a little more interesting as you put it
Ivanovic: some more diversity is always a good move!
Ivanovic: that is: this is not really a move from windows to isx
Ivanovic: many people at google already do work with osx systems (at least macbooks an the likes)
Ivanovic: the change seems to mainly be that they do try to *not* use windows
Ivanovic: the main alternative to windows probably being linux
MPX: Does anybody know the max limit of supported ram in windows 98? And what about USB devices?
MPX: Setting up an old gamer pc :)
Nevtus: MPX: what are you trying to play that doesn't work in Dosbox or a VM?
MPX: I have an old computer, an old soundblaster card and whatnot
MPX: I like to do things native, if I can
MPX: (Olivetti ftw) :p
mastertheknife: I believe Linux is much more secure platform because of its open source
mastertheknife: anyone can read the code, find out exploits and quickly report them to kernel team
mastertheknife: and, if a corporation like google finds an exploit, they can just patch the code and recompile, no need to wait for a fix from Microsoft or Apple
Ivanovic: not to mention that google is doing lots of kernel work themselves
Ivanovic: no matter if it is for android or stuff that helps their huge server farms
Nevtus: I can't understand companies that like being under complete control of the closed vender overlords. It makes sense on every level to have an open code base to work with (even if they decide to not share their changes outside the company)
Nevtus: I guess the only thing that they don't like is "support" (someone to blame), but there is companies like Red Hat for that
Nevtus: Ivanovic: do google contribue back to upsteam heir kernel changes?
Ivanovic: Nevtus: yes
Azalyn: i think google is offering mac as an option because the mactards would revolt if mac was taken away as an option
Azalyn: i guess they have lots of mactard employees
Azalyn: and they need to pander
Azalyn: where as windows users usually aren't so fanatic.
Ivanovic: Azalyn: if you took their beloved windows away and they suddenly had to use a linux system that they never worked with before?
Ivanovic: they would bitch the same as mac users that suddently don't use osx anymore...
Azalyn: nah. it's not really the same.
Azalyn: mactards wouldn't bitch because they were familiar with the system, and had to now learn something else. they would bitch just for the sake of bitching.
Azalyn: because the mac is like a religion.
Azalyn: even if you gave them a linux desktop that is 100% identical to the mac in every way and detail, they would still bitch. because it's a "fake"
Ivanovic: only if you told them
Azalyn: windows users would not do so in the same situation (if you gave them an identical and familiar desktop)
Azalyn: Ivanovic: they might catch on if their older drm'd itunes music mysteriously won't play :O
Ivanovic: Azalyn: ah, "software problem due to a security update, you should complain to apple!"
Nevtus: apple people complain because they have invested a silly amount of money for their computers and devices
Azalyn: Nevtus: well, they'd still be able to run linux on that hardware :)
Nevtus: they don't like it when something challenges their belief they made the right choice
Nevtus: Azalyn: this is mac people we are talking about here ;)
Nevtus: anyway, if they did that they'd realise they should have just got the same hardware from another company for a lot less money
Azalyn: maybe i could get a mac off of ebay, and install linux on it, then go to a starbucks, and make the mactards' heads explode.
Azalyn: it would be fun :O
Nevtus: don't install X for added bonus
Azalyn: or install X, and use twm
Nevtus: if I had a mac I'd probably leave Mac OS on it tbh. The only useful purpose would be porting software to Mac OS
Nevtus: I prefer awesome WM
Azalyn: twm is the window manager included with X
Azalyn: the 'default' sorta.
Azalyn: it's more of a proof of concept wm in a way.
Nevtus: it'd be funnier if you just left it at a command prompt without any GUI. Then if someone asked if they could go on Facebook or Twitter or whatever nonsense mac people like, you'd turn the screen around and watch the horror on their face
Azalyn: do these people actually walk up to strangers and ask them to use their computers? :|
Nevtus: and put a windows sticker over the apple for added troll
Nevtus: depends on the place, it could happen in studenty places if they're on the same course
Nevtus: mac people love to interact with each other like it's a secret club too "OMG YOU'RE A MAC TOO? LOL".
Azalyn: maybe i should wear a black hat!
Nevtus: the people in mac stores are creepy too. The whole "culture" is just weird
Wipster: selling a lifestyle.... not a tool, bah
Nevtus: Wipster: exactly. These people define themselves after their choice in electronics. It's just sad
Azalyn: maybe go in in one of those shops with a t-shirt that has google, linux and adobe logos...
Azalyn: then some men in white (not black!) with sunglasses will come up, and be like "excuse me. you'll have to leave now. >:|"
Nevtus: for the sake of trolling, the windows logo would work best. Remember these people don't know much about the tech industry, it's just "PC VS MAC" to them (with PC == Windows in their minds)
Wipster: quick question, if I flash the bios in my graphics card with some new clocks will the nvidia linux driver complain and break, has anyone tried this?
Azalyn: using windows is kamikaze though. i wouldn't be caught dead in a windows shirt.
Nevtus: Azalyn: an android shirt could work. They are probably aware of android being a competitor to the iphone
Azalyn: Wipster: well, i don't know.. factory overclocked cards are sold, right? and they have the same kinds of changes in their bios i'd imagine...
Azalyn: although personally i wouldn't tinker with a video card's flash rom if it wasn't designed to be OC'd.
Wipster: Azalyn, ahh then good point wasn;t sure tho just wanted to make sure. Well all the cards are essentially the same, might aswell
Nevtus: http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/06/01/0145232/Mobile-Game-Trojan-Calls-the-South-Pole?art_pos=4 Is it just me or does the "Freeware games can actually cost more" part seem a bit... odd. The same could have happened in a paid application
Wipster: tinker with the fan profile soft volt mod and hey presto 25% speed increase
Wipster: windows mobile, you deserve to be stolen from
Azalyn: i like reading the slashdot comments just for the comments rated 'funny'
Azalyn: like the first one in that article. :D
meGenius: is there anyone who uses a VPN solution??
scheka: <- uses wippien on windows
meGenius: is this a VPN server, scheka??
scheka: meGenius: client only
meGenius: i'm searching for a VPN server
scheka: but i think you can also set up a server for wippien
meGenius: i want a VPN server that works with the default VPN client for all the OSs
mastertheknife: hey nigey
NigeyUK: hey dude
midget_3111: Any news on the steam front?
Modplan: if you boil water, you get lots of it
Modplan: further investigation needed
Azalyn: there's only one thing from utorrent that i want. it's not a big deal... but it would be nice.
Azalyn: i prefer the way it displays it's download progress, like with the lines and so on
Azalyn: deluge just has a linear progress bar.. not very detailed.
Azalyn: i like being able to see how fragmented the file is while it's downloading.
Azalyn: instead of just a boring linear progress bar.
viridari: ktorrent will show you a more granular progress bar
Azalyn: that's pretty much the only thing i miss. oh, and of course, a native client is way faster than a python one.
Azalyn: but ktorrent is a qt app :(
Azalyn: i don't like having too many qt apps on my system.
Azalyn: in the case of ktorrent it appears to use kdelibs too.. ick.
viridari: rolls his eyes
Azalyn: like i really want to install a fuckload of libraries for something as simple as a torrent client.
r4: ktorrent brings in a ton of dependencies if you dont run kde itself
viridari: Azalyn: so install rtorrent and stop whining
r4: i know this because im DOING it...lol :P
RambJoe: yeah dl speed graph
Azalyn: i have a constitutional right to whine.
RambJoe: i like transmission :P
viridari: Azalyn: what kind of hardware are you running on?
Azalyn: you just hate me because i'm FREE.
r4: unfortunately for me ktorrent is the only client that is accepted by the trackers i am on that has the features i need :x
viridari: trackers are so 2004
r4: so what is the 'hip' thing :P
Azalyn: viridari: oh, i see where you're going with that... "if you have a reasonably modern system then you shouldn't worry about wasting system resources"
Azalyn: honestly, it's complacent people like that which make total *shit* bloated software so successful. heh
viridari: I am coming to you right now from a 167MHz Sun Ultra 1 with 128MB of RAM
christian_lappy: you sit on that one ;-) ?
viridari: christian_lappy: I could if I needed a warm seat. But it works fine for email, IRC, instant messaging, bittorrent, etc.
viridari: the disk controller is a little pokey but otherwise it's fine
r4: viridari: what distro? ive got an old box (not as old as yours) that i would like to revive for fun
Azalyn: i'm just very picky when it comes to efficiency.
viridari: $ uname -a [..] OpenBSD thyme.yonderway.com 4.7 GENERIC#258 sparc64
r4: i use arch atm but i feel arch would be overkill for such an old box (im leaning towards debian atm)
Azalyn: it really bugs me that computers today are hundreds of thousands of times faster than they were in the 80s, and yet in many use cases they *feel* dozens of times SLOWER...
r4: BSD :O
viridari: r4: OpenBSD is far lighter & more efficient on this hardware than any flavor of linux
Azalyn: heh, i have lots of respect for the openbsd guys, they do good work.
viridari: like I said... 128M of RAM. But I have 40M free.
r4: is there a huge difference between the two? ill give BSD a shot if it is worth it
r4: ill have 64M of ram
viridari: FreeBSD and NetBSD are faster
r4: 533Hz CPU
viridari: OpenBSD puts more emphasis on correctness than cutting corners in pursuit of performance
viridari: I have much much faster machines around
Azalyn: in theory it shouldn't be impossible to have both though.
Azalyn: both performance and security/stability.
viridari: I think you're right but nobody is really putting the resources into such a product
r4: i think arch linux is trying to achieve this
Azalyn: arch is just a distribution...
r4: i understand
viridari: I use Linux on most of my systems
viridari: I don't know that the Linux kernel will ever be a good foundation for a secure OS
viridari: it tries to be too many things to too many people
Azalyn: linux isn't as "correct" as openbsd, but honestly linux has to make a lot of trade offs in order to fit the various needs out there.
Megagun: Wow, I finally have proper 2d acceleration and semi-good 3d acceleration
Azalyn: but even so, linux is still orders of magnitude better than windows..
viridari: this is one of my linux boxes: http://www.vibrant.com/models/ibm-p6-570-server/
ryan22: i like this distro: http://www.tinycorelinux.com/
ryan22: full x11 and gui with 10 MB of space
ryan22: 20 MB of ram
Azalyn: tinycore has an interesting history.. the guy doing that used to be part of the damn small linux team i believe.
viridari: I do love that there are some uber lightweight linux distros out there
ryan22: it uses busybox, so im not even its possible on bsd
Azalyn: busybox is pretty badass
ryan22: security is all about encapsulation
Megagun: Tinycore is a pain to install though. That or I'm stupid.
Azalyn: i thought X alone would require more than 10MB, so that's actually interesting
Megagun: SliTaz is a lot easier, but also quite a bit larger.
Azalyn: Megagun: what distros have you used before?
ryan22: if all your services are running in unpriviledged users, what is there to hack?
Azalyn: is it harder than gentoo or arch?
Megagun: Azalyn: Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, Arch, OpenSUSE
Megagun: Well, it's completely *different*. It uses loopfiles for all of its modules, or something.
Azalyn: what's this .tcz package format they're using?
ryan22: tiny core requires you to make the parition, copy the data and setup grub manually
Azalyn: i haven't heard of a compression algorithm that uses cz as an extension
viridari: I am guessing that's because it's a package, not a tarball
Azalyn: ryan22: oh, like gentoo then. that isn't too hard.
Azalyn: yeah, i just found that through google.
Azalyn: seems like they're using squashfs
Azalyn: how bizarre.
ryan22: squashfs is pretty awesome
ryan22: i want them to add squashfs-lzma to the kernel though
ryan22: im running out of space on the infinityos live cd
ryan22: mostly cuz everyone wants me to include xbmc
viridari: xbmc on a live cd... mmm nice
ryan22: it can run as your session too ;)
viridari: wishes nvidia would come out with an sbus video card
ubuntujenkins: is anyone on the linux steam beta there is one apparently http://www.techwatch.co.uk/2010/05/18/playing-popular-windows-games-in-linux-becomes-easier/ (fourth line)
ubuntujenkins: *(fourth paragraph)
ryan22: i think it was leaked a couple of weeks ago and then was taken down
ubuntujenkins: the only link I have is ^ . I would like a release soon :)
RambJoe: The Steam Linux client is already available in a closed beta. And 3D graphical card support on Linux has improved, which will help give players a good game experience. Linux users can look forward to playing native versions of such popular games as Quake Wars, Doom 3. Half-Life 2, Counter-Strike: Source, and Team Fortress 2.
RambJoe: probably got it off phoronix lol
RambJoe: http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/steam_client_linux do they mean that
maligor: it's the forbidden beta
ubuntujenkins: I heard it on http://www.linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/152 got the link from the show notes
ryan22: i remember reading somewhere it only worked on arch or something
ubuntujenkins: thats not so good.
maligor: I hear it only worked if you had the GoatSacrifice(tm) PCI card installed
ryan22: ubuntu is a mess in terms of apis
ryan22: forget :P
Azalyn: viridari: i looked up sbus. the hell, that looks like a scsi 68 pin connector
RambJoe: i swear they found a distro checker in the mac files
ryan22: actually i think it was on this channel
ryan22: oh wells
viridari: Azalyn: that's what my sun workstation uses. it predates PCI.
Azalyn: hm, apparently it's actually 96pins
Azalyn: but it does look similar.
ryan22: thats a beast of a connector
viridari: it was actually a very good bus
Azalyn: better than SGI's XIO bus? ;)
ryan22: my university used to have a sun lab. but they dumped all the computers that sun gave them for computers running windows
viridari: a lot of my sun computers came from Duke U.
ryan22: the windows computers take like 15 min to logon
maligor: my university used to have sun computers, but they dumped most of them for linux
viridari: ryan22: latency for logins on my ~1995 era sun box approaches zero
ryan22: im currently making a thin client system for my university to exist along side windows
Azalyn: XIO in SGI systems is similar in some ways to HyperTransport, but predates it by a very long time.
viridari: it gives up its age when you do big disk intensive operations
ryan22: so we can *nix back in the sun lab
maligor: just install linux on all of the windows boxes?
Azalyn: i've wanted to get an sgi octane for a long time now
maligor: most of the real unix systems are just a pita in comparison :P
ryan22: a traditional desktop setup would be too much to maintain
maligor: heh, yeah, right
ryan22: ^warning: i went a bit overboard with the literal flourishes
ryan22: but its been approved
ryan22: ive been demoing to the administration and faculty. im getting testing hardware next month
maligor: I never liked the whole thin client idea
Azalyn: what did you just link?
ryan22: my proposal
Azalyn: google is asking me to login
maligor: never seen a really good thin client
Azalyn: maybe because they all run windows these days ;)
ryan22: mine just uses a base install of debian with openbox and the client running
ryan22: 35 MB of ram, runs as a live cd so the kids cant screw with the install
ryan22: im using the nx protocol so faculty and students can remote desktop in from anywhere and access their apps and data
Azalyn: the nomachines nx thing?
ryan22: it has near native response times over dsl
viridari: maligor: HP used to make really good thin clients like 5+ years ago
Azalyn: does that work more like vnc, or more like X11's native client/server protocol?
ryan22: its a highly optimized version of x11
viridari: X11 is unfortunately not good for modern thin clients
ryan22: it caches all the widgets
viridari: aside from being a porky and non-secure protocol, X11 doesn't carry audio payload
Azalyn: i like the X11 design better, but it *does* need to be seriously optimized.
ryan22: NX can do audio and can do usb via samba shares
maligor: I once tried running matlab over x11/ssh
maligor: was supremely fast
Azalyn: isn't pulseaudio supposed to do audio in that fashion or something?
ryan22: im not sure if its low latency enoguh for a remote desktop
ryan22: "NX compresses the X11 data to minimize the amount of data transmitted. NX takes full advantage of modern hardware by caching all manners of data, to make the session as responsive as possible; for example, if a menu is opened, the first time it may take a few seconds, but every subsequent time the menu is opened it will appear almost instantly."
viridari: pulseaudio over network is a kluge. it's divorced from the X11 $DISPLAY
Azalyn: pulseaudio supposedly adjusts latency based on demand. or something
ryan22: its pretty neat. has multiple levels of caching, so you can disable stuff like jpeg compression if its on a local netowrk
ryan22: pulseaudio just makes my sound click when my computer idles :p
maligor: but they'll still be essentially using windows?
Azalyn: well... in theory X11 should handle only display-related stuff, and audio should be served using some other method. at least if we want to keep with the traditional unix concept of separation/modularism
ryan22: maligor: theyll dual-boot with my thin client distro
ryan22: and the nx client app will be on the windows image
ryan22: itll likely be only used for the math and computer departments at first though
ryan22: the problem is the computer science department uses c# for everything, so well have to use monodevelop
Azalyn: rolls eyes
maligor: just put emacs on it
Azalyn: i thought CS was hardcore
ryan22: i put gedit, vim and emacs on it :p
ryan22: but they want a proper ide
maligor: at my univ the basic computer usage 101 include emacs use
Azalyn: are you sure you don't mean MCSE department?
Azalyn: maligor: no vi? :P
maligor: no, I cursed them to hell
ryan22: sadly thats what what my computer science dept has become
maligor: and secretly used vim whenever possible
maligor: also everyone's required to take C and Java courses
Azalyn: ryan22: so basically, they do "computer" without the "science" part.
ryan22: lol i sent this to my profs
ryan22: "I think computer science, and the ways in which it is taught, must go
ryan22: back to being a science. And the only way to study computer science as a science is to study Unix and its philosophy."
maligor: no, that's not computer science
maligor: computer science is mathematics
ryan22: it is
maligor: and applied computer science would be programming
ryan22: computer programs are abstractions of mathematic proofs
ryan22: and in our to make proper programs, you need to know how to simplify
ryan22: or else, you get windows :p
Azalyn: from what i've seen, my expectations of computer science was to teach the whole ball of wax, the basics of how the hardware is designed, and then on the software side, assembly, C, etc.
ryan22: i dont think you can teach students how to program using windows
maligor: assembler is mostly pointless for CS
ryan22: we did cusp
ryan22: its good to know just so you know the results of your programming
ryan22: and how to better simplify
maligor: assembler is just used for the very last stage in optimization
Azalyn: a friend a long time ago told me that in his class they made them calculate assembly by hand just to see how it maps to binary. with a simple program.
ryan22: assembly is useless mostly for production
ryan22: c is more than good enough if you need speed
maligor: except in the case of writing compilers
maligor: well, scientific calculations are a big exception to that
Azalyn: i would think assembly is important for CS, since part of the "science" part is knowing the theory, and assembly has a 1-to-1 mapping to binary, so it lets you understand the hardware much better.
maligor: and so are games
ryan22: games you need object orientation
Azalyn: it's true that in the real world you don't need it as much, but that is a different story.
Azalyn: you should at least *know* how it *works*
ryan22: it helps you understand how your programs are compiled
maligor: Azalyn, magic.
maligor: ryan22, yes, magic
maligor: modern optimizing compilers are quite complex
viridari: never ever cite ESR if you want to be taken seriously
ryan22: magic reminds me of that. its how i describe ssh to any non-computer science person
Azalyn: i take it you don't like eric either? heh
Azalyn: that guy is so fucking obnoxious
viridari: he used to occasionally come to LUG meetings in Philly. What an obnoxious twit.
ryan22: i guess hes a bit controversial
Azalyn: he's also sexist and racist.
viridari: and full of himself
ryan22: you need people like that sometimes
ryan22: for better or for worse
viridari: we definitely didn't need him at the LUG meetings
Azalyn: why? to be an embarrassment to the community?
viridari: guest speakers would come in & he'd be a total attention whore
ryan22: the suits need someone to listen to
viridari: and shill for his books
ryan22: his books are free
viridari: if the suits listen to ESR we're in trouble
viridari: not the print copies
ryan22: i would never buy a esr book :p
viridari: if a guy walks into a room and convinces everyone in moments that he is an ass, not many people in the room are going to want to know his opinion on other things
ryan22: but he work is useful to me cuz im doing my thesis on how open source software is a perfectly competitive market
ryan22: and he touches on that quite a bit
ryan22: though ill actually use econmic lanaguage
viridari: ryan22: touch base with Sam Ockman and Bruce Perens
Azalyn: if you want to have a good thesis, you could probably find a lot of other people to quote.
Azalyn: instead of eric.
ryan22: ya definitely
Azalyn: why give him the attention
ryan22: well i wont be starting it for a bit
Azalyn: he thinks he's god's gift to the opensource community.
ryan22: i like Michael Tiemann
viridari: "What have you done?" ... "Fetchmail! You use fetchmail, don't you?" ... "Uh no Eric. This is 2010."
ryan22: hes seems to be forgotten alot
Azalyn: lately i've been starting to think that maybe the FSF was right all along, and that we should have focused on the *freedom* of the software, when marketing, instead of the technical advantages.
ryan22: this is how i define open source on my website
viridari: rms is a very intense kind of guy and very controversial but I have to say, he's usually right
ryan22: "meaning it can be freely modified and customized at will"
Azalyn: look what focusing on technology has gotten us... microsoft basically just made their OS "good enough" with NT to the point where people no longer care.
ryan22: free is a bad word in the english lanaguage
viridari: free is an ambiguous word in the english language
ryan22: freely modifiable and extensible is much more concrete and easier to sell
Azalyn: in the old days we'd say "use linux because windows crashes every day", and now windows doesn't crash every day anymore...
ryan22: it does take 15 min to login
viridari: Bob Young's pitch still applies today
viridari: You wouldn't buy a car with the hood welded shut, would you?
Azalyn: is the people really start to care about linux's other technical advantages, then microsoft will just rip us off and throw billions at windows until it works the way they want, no matter how many dirty hacks they have to use.
Azalyn: id = if
ryan22: ya thats why i focused on remote desktoping in my proposal
Azalyn: is = if
ryan22: windows can touch unix in terms of scaliablity
viridari: Microsoft's market cap fell below Apple's last week. What a wonderful milestone in its collapse.
ryan22: apple is much worse than apple
viridari: ryan22: slow down buddy. Breath.
Azalyn: but richard stallman's pitch is pretty much immortal. because for windows to be able to match linux in 'freedom', it would have to be opensourced.
viridari: apple is worse than msft, yes. But msft is going down. That's the point.
maligor: I don't want msft to go down
Daekdroom: Windows would never be opensourced.
ryan22: but aple is gaining influence
Azalyn: so marketing the control that freedom gives you on your own computer, is much better as a selling point.
Daekdroom: Free, maybe, but opensourced? Highly unlikely.
Azalyn: Daekdroom: yes, exactly. which is exactly my point.
viridari: ryan22: apple doesn't have so much influence in computing as they do in consumer electronics
maligor: microsoft should just rewrite their entire userland from scratch to be more efficient tho
ryan22: but consumer goods are how we communicate
maligor: darned thing sucks ram like candy
Azalyn: maligor: impossible, look how difficult it's been for wine to do it.
Azalyn: you can say that this is because they don't have the documentation, but i'm sure it's not that simple at all
ryan22: "It was created due to a belief that the software used to make, distribute, and enjoy your media should be completely free (as in freedom) and open. It is intended to be a platform on which you may enjoy your media, free of restrictions beyond those of copyright itself."
Azalyn: microsoft can't even get compatibility to work right between windows versions...
ryan22: thats how you market to millenials
viridari: Microsoft had its own UNIX back in the 80's that they used internally and to build Windows from
sado1: I don't believe Apple could take over all of the desktop computing just like MS did
viridari: but they dropped it
maligor: Azalyn, break compability cleanly then
ryan22: i would say about 25% of people my age use a mac
sado1: they won't force everyone to buy their devices
Azalyn: but i don't think they built windows from xenix..
Daekdroom: sado1, they do.
Azalyn: they sold xenix to SCO (lol)
Azalyn: or sold it to someone else, but eventually it ended up at SCO.
viridari: Azalyn: actually AT&T owned it, MSFT just leased rights to it. When msft was done with it, SCO got exclusive rights.
ryan22: "Computers are our main venue of communication. This is becoming more and more true each day. I don't think it's wise to let companies have as much control over our methods of communication as we have given them. Our methods of communication should be a public good."
ryan22: i think then open source message is sound, it just needs to updated a bit to overtake the desktop
viridari: ok it's not quite as simple as what I said
viridari: nothing ever is when it comes to copyrights & patents haha
Azalyn: the message isn't what's wrong. the fact is there are some deficiencies in the desktop on linux..
sado1: let's add another company to the discussion: Google.
viridari: ryan22: FOSS has been ready for the desktop for many years. Users have been too stupid.
Azalyn: one being 3d.
sado1: they showed that one can successfully beat Apple at their own territory
ryan22: how about this:
Azalyn: and the other being patents (out of the box mp3/dvd/bluray/etc playback)
maligor: sado1, what territory?
Azalyn: which of course goes back to "stupid users"
sado1: iPhone vs Android
ryan22: "Apple is a company of restrictions. Google is a company of facilitation."
Azalyn: if they weren't stupid they could learn to just install mplayer :)
viridari: Google is evil
Azalyn: but still
maligor: I don't think iphone has much of penetration in europe
ryan22: mplayer barely works on mac os x
ryan22: not thats its mplayer's fault
maligor: and iphone was a very late comer
christian_lappy: viridari: nah
sado1: well both systems are mostly for richer users
Azalyn: google's evil doesn't really affect you if you don't use their non-search services.
Azalyn: the search engine isn't as bad.. although in theory they know everything you search for
Azalyn: but still
Azalyn: maligor: as for microsoft breaking compatibility... well. they did. :|
Azalyn: that is what .NET is supposed to be...
ryan22: the prob though is apple is selling mac os x as a unix
Azalyn: .NET is supposed to be their "next generation api" for the whole system
ryan22: so all these new computer science students are buying macs thinking theyre getting a real unix
viridari: google's POV on privacy issues is evil, and their products touch pretty much everyone on the internet
Azalyn: vista was supposed to have been written entirely in .net
Azalyn: but it appears they scrapped that idea
viridari: ryan22: how is OS X not a real unix?
ryan22: .net is horrible cuz of the runtime
Azalyn: but yeah, .net is supposed to be the replacement for win32.
ryan22: package management
maligor: viridari, how is it a real unix?
maligor: viridari, aside from having a certification
viridari: when I bring up a shell it behaves in an awfully UNIXy fashion to me
maligor: it has no heritage, the hier is all wrong and their app setup is weird
viridari: no heritage?
ryan22: Azalyn: check out vala. its the syntac of c#, but recompiled into c. runs as fast as c too
viridari: it's not linux if that's what bothers you
Azalyn: i never did understand how they got certification without following the unix heirarchy.
ryan22: Apple promises you the allure of a Unix but greatly fails to deliver. When you actually to do something Unixy with it, you quickly hit a brick wall. In addition, you are forced to use an often unmaintained package manager (MacPorts) to build a complete and separate BSD subsystem in order to do anything useful with the Unix roots.
maligor: linux doesn't have heritage either
ryan22: linux has the modularity and customiziblity of a true unix
ryan22: mac os x doesnt
viridari: I think most people who claim OS X isn't UNIX are Linux people that have never experienced UNIX
maligor: viridari, heh
viridari: Linux != UNIX. Linux is UNIX-ish
maligor: Actually linux should easily get certification
viridari: spend some time in *BSD, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX... then tell me OS X isn't UNIX.
Azalyn: ryan22: can you explain that thing you linked from esr earlier? heh
ryan22: its ssh basically
ryan22: users used to guis are amazing when *nix people start updating and rebooting computers remotely
viridari: http://darwinbuild.macosforge.org/ here is the build environment for Darwin. Go out there & be somebody. :)
ryan22: theres much better free unix es that have up-to-date progams
ryan22: mac os x is more trouble then its worth
ryan22: unless oyu like bouncing icons
Azalyn: linux has bouncing icons...
maligor: or a gui theme that's worse than microsoft's
Daekdroom: boucing icons? Hell yeah.
ryan22: i use xfce with all that stuff disabled
ryan22: animations are just a way of hiding slowness
maligor: what stuff? bouncing icons?
Azalyn: is the guy in the esr thing trying to say that a gui can't communicate as directly as a commandline can? by pointing at objects the way you'd use a mouse cursor?
The_Muh: i3 <3
Azalyn: that's pretty much the only thing i can guess..
ryan22: basically you can do a hundred things at once with a cli
ryan22: but only really one thing at once with a gui
Azalyn: and why did he get enlightened when the dog peed on him?
The_Muh: peed? pete? =)
ryan22: its the analogy that counts not the excution :p
ryan22: but eh you dont need animations to make a gui pretty
ryan22: especially if they get in the way
maligor: I totally agree with that
maligor: can't stand animated elements
ryan22: a ui should do as its told and shut the hell up overwise
ryan22: and tell me loudly when something breaks
maligor: good idea.. audiocrashd, it'll proclaim with maximum volume: "It's broken!"
ryan22: the mac os x gui, although pretty, makes alot of stuff ten times more effort to do as everything is hidden
ryan22: for example, its incredible the number of app launchers mac os x has as finder sucks for opening apps
maligor: and then there's the baffling counter example of it too
maligor: bloody rubbish
ryan22: oh man the player that takes up 256 MB of ram and 20% cpu to play a mp3
ryan22: my p3 used to slow down and lock up when i updated my ipod and copied files over
Daekdroom: I wouldn't even dare to ask what you think about E-17.. o.o
maligor: I like the general gui layout of itunes tho
ryan22: i like banshee as it emulates most of itunes without having all the crap
maligor: which is why I use rhythmbox or banshee
ryan22: though it needs a bit of work
ryan22: and they need to ditch mono and recode it in vala
kurros: would be nice if iTunes used OS X's GUI toolkit someday
maligor: I think they're pretty much perfect as it is
ryan22: runtimes are not really needed on desktop computers
maligor: vala's a bit raw still :P
ryan22: pino and rockwell are pretty good
ryan22: it just needs a decent ide for lazy ppl
maligor: mm.. I guess my info is old now
maligor: haven't really looked at vala for a while
ryan22: ya programs are starting to be programed in it
ryan22: deja sup is another good vala program
maligor: what's pino?
ryan22: twitter client
ryan22: to replace gwibber
ryan22: and shotwell is aimed at replacing fspot
maligor: yeah, I've seen shotwell
maligor: shame it's so tied to gobject tho :P
maligor: but I guess it has to have focus
ryan22: i think ubuntu's going to use shotwell in 10.10. fedora has already switched to pino and shotwell as they dont want to include mono
ryan22: it still uses gtk+ so it integrates well into xfce
maligor: shame shotwell/fspot are so useless for me :P
ryan22: what we need is a paint equivalent
ryan22: gnupaint is kinda eh
ryan22: the gui is kinda ugly
maligor: I've never had ANY need to use Paint atall.. ever
ryan22: its nice to have for new users
ryan22: they love their paint
maligor: mostly I just use gimp
ryan22: gimp is kinda daunting
maligor: you should see ufraw
maligor: if you think gimp is daunting :P
ryan22: its funny how much effort ximian put into getting mono used for all these apps
maligor: just never found any decent replacement
ryan22: and now theres a movement to completely replace them
maligor: rawtherapee might ofcourse
ryan22: vala was basically created to replace mono
ryan22: and all the mono apps have vala apps lined up to replace them
maligor: yeah, mono always was a daft target for opensource apps
maligor: what's the point if you can just recompile native anyway
ryan22: well tomboy notes has gnote, which c++, its a bit of an execption
ryan22: plus the mono runtime is kinda huge
ryan22: which is bad for live cds
kurros: they could AOT compile the apps for a live CD if they cared that much. but its not really an issue.
ryan22: getting stuff to fit on the 700 MB is a big pain
ryan22: even with squashfs
ryan22: i think mono takes up at least 75 MB, i would love to use that space for something else :P
NigeyUK: Please don't reply with "Get your facts right", because I clearly stated that I don't know much about Linux and its differences between PC or Mac, I just know it doesn't have a large user base base compared to PC & Mac.
NigeyUK: please somebody go and slap that retard!
NigeyUK: Exactly, the minority use Linux and it is very unpopular, the majority of people don't even know it exists.
NigeyUK: even funnier...lmao
GNU\colossus: and always remember, kids: "PC" implies "Microsoft Windows"!
NigeyUK: yush if its a pc its WINDOWS! lol
maligor: someone should make a TCO estimate of running DOS without internet connection
GNU\colossus: and Macs aren't PC. they just aren't Personal Computers.
maligor: "It can't do anything, but it doesn't cost anything either!"
ryan22: NigeyUK: most people have heard of linux. they just think Linux = Hard
ryan22: which is why my distro doesnt have linux in the name :p
GNU\colossus: maligor: only if you use FreeDOS. DOS licences aren't that cheap at all.
Daekdroom: On my country, I blame the OEM versions of Linux.. They're all crap.
maligor: mine does.. it's called Deblinuxian
maligor: sometimes people just misspell it as debian
ryan22: GNU/Linux is even more scary
maligor: GNU\colossus, yes, correct
ryan22: then theres Debian GNU/Hurd
GNU\colossus: my Lenovo Thinkpad came with a "license entitlement" for IBM PC DOS
maligor: and Debian GNU/Fbsd
ryan22: and debian GNU/NetBSD
GNU\colossus: I'd just have to send it in, along with 20 US$, to receive my copy
ryan22: its etra scary if you pnonouced the slash like stallman
GNU\colossus: to run it on a dual core 64bit CPU with 2GB of RAM.
maligor: and a avr32 port
maligor: I wonder who's idea it was to make a avr32 port of debian
GNU\colossus: it is, quite obviously, a prerequisite for complete and utter world domination
GNU\colossus: so I don't find that startling at all
ryan22: i like how the archs have consolidated in the last 5 years
ryan22: theres basically really power, amd64, and arm these days
maligor: debian has ia64, alpha, m68k, mips, s390 and sparc also
GNU\colossus: I'd wager some of them won't be there any more in 5 years though
ryan22: the other archs aren't really used all the much though
ryan22: except maybe sparc, i think sparc might make a minor comeback with orcale buying sun
maligor: mips is
Daekdroom: GNU\colossus, care to mention which ones?
GNU\colossus: Daekdroom: alpha, for instance
maligor: the chinese make big love with mips
ryan22: mips maybe in china if longsoon takes off
maligor: and plenty of other cores with mips
ryan22: but are they used all that much
maligor: just not in the trendy area
maligor: ryan22, yeah, right
Daekdroom: I wonder when we'll get rid of the x86 dominance.
ryan22: arm has mostly taken embedded, intel64 has the mainstream and ibm has the mainframes
maligor: I have two mips chips that I know of, probably more
maligor: and two arms
ryan22: i guess its used alot in embedded stuff
maligor: err.. 3 arms
maligor: I guess I'm a mutant
ryan22: i think my router has a mips chip (i run dd-wrt on it)
maligor: one of them is infact a dual-arm
maligor: yeah, broadcom has lots of mips router chipsets
maligor: and atheros also
ryan22: Daekdroom: if anything takes over x64, itll be arm
maligor: and infineon
maligor: marvell has some very nice arms targetting the same segment tho
ryan22: i think consolidation is good though
ryan22: makes things easier to test and maintain
ryan22: too much consolidation is bad
ryan22: but 3 main archs is plenty
maligor: more arches give more approach to fixing bugs
Daekdroom: Huge consolidation on anything is bad.
Daekdroom: Look at Windows.
maligor: what about windows?
maligor: only thing that pops into mind is virus's
ryan22: windows is buggy cuz it doesnt have a package management system to effectively deliever updates
maligor: what's windows update then?
ryan22: and doesnt have proper service encapsulation so if you hack one program, you have access to the enitre os
Daekdroom: Windows is consolidated on mainstream desktop computation.
Daekdroom: That's the problem
ryan22: maligor: they only release updates once a month
maligor: ryan22, that's not really a package management system issue
ryan22: and half the time those uopdates brak something, cuz everything is statically linked
maligor: they do?
ryan22: windows doesnt have proper dynamic linking
ryan22: malidor: mostly enterprise apps
maligor: so because enterprise apps are rubbish, you blame it on windows?
ryan22: the dynamic linking thing is also why windows and mac os x take up so much ram
maligor: windows has similar linking to macosx?
ryan22: mailigor: it doesnt have a proper dynamic linking mechanism so the programmers are forced to program rubbish
Ivanovic: ryan22: uhm, in theory dlls are for dynamic linking
ryan22: both oses tken a simlar apporach to library issues. load 5 versions of the same library in ram
Ivanovic: ryan22: the problem is that every app comes with its own version of the libs
Ivanovic: (the same for osx!)
Ivanovic: since there is no package manager to install the dependencies progs have
Daekdroom: Well, there isn't any solution when you can't compile the programs
maligor: not like linux state is any different
ryan22: Ivanvic: i feel you need to have proper packaging in order to have proper libraries
Ivanovic: in theory you can do similar stuff on windows as on linux, providing some libs/ folder and making use ot it
maligor: all big commercial linux sw come with full library sets
Ivanovic: ryan22: yeah, to make *use* of things you do need proper package management
maligor: like Maya 2011 ships with Qt libs
Ivanovic: but the progs themselves *are* capable of it
ryan22: but sometimes those old libraries dont work on newer version of windows
ryan22: or older versions
Ivanovic: yeah, but those issues exist on linux, too
ryan22: even if theyre static
Ivanovic: they are known as "broken api"
ryan22: theyre much better handled though
maligor: Ivanovic, not ABI?
Ivanovic: maligor: yeah, right
Ivanovic: maligor: but those are often dynamically linked and can simply be replaced by the system libs if wanted/required
maligor: yeah, they are
ryan22: but sometimes the system libraries are too new for the old application, so stuff breaks
Ivanovic: for some proprietary software you basically have to ship the libs you link against to make sure that it *can* still work even if there is some breakage in the abi of libs
ryan22: package management is really the only solution for library issues
maligor: and opensource the only solution for program issues! :P
Ivanovic: ryan22: the only real solution for library issues is open source software!
Ivanovic: since that you *can* simply recompile and be done
maligor: haiku os must be the most baffling case
maligor: writing a full os to replace a dead one with abi compability
Daekdroom: You know the fun thing? Windows Vista keeps a single folder with all possible versions of a DLL it can find through all the setups and upgrades..
maligor: totally mad
ryan22: and that folder is 5 GB
ryan22: its why the windows install is so huge
Daekdroom: Wasn't there a discussion wether Firefox should ship its own xulrunner on linux or not?
maligor: firefox wants to be set free, use iceweasel
ryan22: its funny how many issues are caused by a single problem. :P
ryan22: maligor: i still dont understand why mozilla just doesnt link against ffmpeg
ryan22: then there would be no h.264 debate as firefox would support everything
r4: that would be nice
ryan22: they wouldnt even need to ship it with an ffmpeg that had the patent encubered codecs
maligor: then they'd have to license all video patents under the sun
ryan22: it could just be rebuilt
maligor: ffmpeg must break every single video patent in the world
ryan22: ubuntu strips ffmpeg and allows you to install a full version
JEEB: IIRC opera does the same
ryan22: and chromium just uses ffmpeg
JEEB: so mozilla only gives out a limited one if they wish
JEEB: and then you can get the other one from a "third party"
ryan22: or they could have us and world version
ryan22: becuase the patents only apply to the us and south korea
JEEB: and Japan IIRC
JEEB: orly > south korea
JEEB: many south korean media player etc. makers openly say "wut lol" at MPEG-LA
JEEB: Even when they sell their stuff
JEEB: (not that those players are worth using)
ryan22: all those players use ffmpeg. seriously mplayer, gstreamer (via gstreamer-ffmpeg), xine and VLC all use FFmpeg as their backend
JEEB: yah. It all depends on how well they use that backend
ryan22: which is in some cases shit :p
ryan22: *cough* VLC *cough*
ryan22: though can be a pain to setup
JEEB: uau's mplayer-build repo is rather nice :3
maligor: gstreamer has licensed codecs available also tho
JEEB: Well, I don't like VLC but at least they're fixing the bugs I found while messing around with their streaming stuff.
ryan22: JEEB: ya im including it in infinityos 1.1. it had half the resource usage in my testing
JEEB: And heck, the X projects on rewriting/fixing their matroska parsers
JEEB: At least VLC is going somewhere. Slowly, but it is.
JEEB: Mplayer-uau is <3 at the moment though
ryan22: its great for other oses
ryan22: mplayer has issues on windows and mac os x
JEEB: ? Kovensky's build worked nicely the last I checked
JEEB: and there's mplayer os x extended or whatever it was for os x
ryan22: mind you i havent checked windows for a bit
JEEB: Both quite up-to-date builds IIRc
ryan22: the mac os x one just crashes for me. i tried multiple backends too
JEEB: The guy who got officially told he's not an official mplayer dev any more a day or two ago > uau
ryan22: what happened?
JEEB: the guy who IIRC made the first working ffmpeg-mt patch for mplayer
JEEB: ryan22, lolpolitics
JEEB: The mplayer "main devs" didn't seem to like him that much, although he made lots of work
ryan22: the fact that ppl are dumping the svn build for the git build cuz the git buld actually works
JEEB: He's doing good work with his branch
JEEB: he also got told that he must change the name of his git repo from now on
ryan22: for an unstable branch, ive found it much more stable than svn
ryan22: he should just fork it
ryan22: he has my support
JEEB: Well, it is a fork already IMHO lol. The original devs didn't really like his stuff anyways or something along those lines (haven't been around #mplayer for a while, got trolled out by anti-VFR people)
JEEB: Also, IIRC uau's branch has been bannable material on #mplayer for some time now lol
JEEB: given that it has the best matroska splitter etc. I kind of laugh
JEEB: Oh well
ryan22: well as long as he keeps it compatible with the frontends, itll all good
JEEB: http://mplayerosx.sttz.ch/ <- the OS X one. http://kovensky.project357.com/ <- the Windows one. I should kick Kovensky to actually upload some newer build.
ryan22: well this is kinda of why distributed code mangement systems suck
ryan22: *are awesome
ryan22: sorry :p
JEEB: haha, yeah 8)
ryan22: the main devs in a project with cvs or svn get all egotistical cuz they have the "power" to commit
ryan22: and start dropping patches radomly for political and upstaging reasons
JEEB: oh wow, they actually released 1.0rc3 on the svn side
ryan22: i credit uoit for actually putting the pressure on them to release something :P
ryan22: perfection is paralysis
JEEB: Also, I remember certain distros still including rc2 after 2-3 years it was released so I don't fully know if the release is a good idea if they don't have some grand new plan on development within the next year+
ryan22: i think the media center community will fully support him if he speaks up
ryan22: xbmc uses ffmpeg-mt i believe
JEEB: they have a patch, but they don't officially want to use it
JEEB: not until it gets into ffmpeg "officially"
ryan22: that will never happen
JEEB: Which is why I'm slightly laughing when I see people answer like that
JEEB: Oh well~
ryan22: ill look into including that patch with infinityos 1.1 as well
ryan22: i have never had any issues with ffmpeg-mt. it has existed for years now
JEEB: It had some issues with MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 ASP, but IIRC those have already been put offline on astrange's branch
JEEB: (mplayer-uau has had the "fixes" to not use mt with those for quite some time)
ryan22: im guessing those issues can be "fixed" by just making it single threaded
ryan22: ffmpeg-mt is twice as fast even with one thread
JEEB: http://github.com/Kovensky/mplayer-kovensky <- hurf, he is keeping the source up-to-date, but hasn't released builds so far. I guess I'll whip him later on.
ryan22: well if i could get these builds packaged for debian, it would be great
JEEB: I would love it too if someone who'd care enough would keep them up-to-date >_>
ryan22: the only reason why i havent included the newer mplayer git build is cuz its a huge pain to package
ryan22: and itll be easy to backport to ubuntu
JEEB: I never really got a hold of the ways of how to "correctly" package software for debian
Kovensky: the only reason why i havent included the newer mplayer git build is cuz its a huge pain to package <-- there are debian scripts on git://repo.or.cz/mplayer-build.git
ryan22: its simple for most apps
ryan22: Kovensky: i'll look into it. thanks
Kovensky: http://github.com/Kovensky/mplayer-kovensky <- hurf, he is keeping the source up-to-date, but hasn't released builds so far. I guess I'll whip him later on. <-- yeah, it involves me compiling the toolchain for the nth time :(
ryan22: ill be more than happy to provide a PPA for ubuntu users as well
JEEB: ryan22, I would gladly recommend that to people who don't love building it by themselves, too :3
Kovensky: (mplayer-uau has had the "fixes" to not use mt with those for quite some time) <-- no, his never had
Kovensky: mine did
Daekdroom: What's wrong with not knowing how to build? D:
JEEB: Kovensky, oh
ryan22: the mplayer package in ubuntu is like a year old
JEEB: nothing new
Kovensky: since I copypasted x264's cpu count detect code =p
ryan22: its kinda pathetic
JEEB: they used to have 1.0rc2 for a lulzy amount of time
JEEB: because it's "stable"
JEEB: har har har
Kovensky: the mplayer package in ubuntu is like a year old <-- they should have some, erm, stimulus to update for 10.10 now that 1.0rc3 is out (lol)(
JEEB: Kovensky, olol
ryan22: i still remeber the debacle about them breaking grub the day before lucid was released
JEEB: Kovensky, was there any magic on cygwin that you'd have to perform to get mplayer built on i686-pc-mingw32?
Kovensky: same as on lunix
Kovensky: build your own cross-compiler
Daekdroom: Last build dates.. one month ago.
ryan22: Daekdroom: those builds are kinda old
Kovensky: the only difference between cross-compiling on cygwin and cross-compiling or unix is that on the former the produced binaries are ABI compatible
ryan22: and the newest one is lucid only and is svn so it doesnt have mt
Kovensky: rvm is smplayer's author
ryan22: im currently using the rvn builds though
JEEB: Kovensky, I guess I'll try building a mingw cross-compiler some day >_>
Kovensky: the only difference between cross-compiling on cygwin and cross-compiling or unix is that on the former the produced binaries are ABI compatible <-- well, the other one is that it's TREMENDOUSLY slower on cygwin
JEEB: well I've gotten used to that with msys already
ryan22: Kovensky: can you compile it on MingGW?
JEEB: his builds are built like that, so I'd say "yes" to that
ryan22: ya i havent used windows for half a year now so im abit out-of-date on a lot of thing :p
Kovensky: Kovensky: can you compile it on MingGW? <-- I used to do that
Kovensky: but I got fed up with MSYS being a POS and switched to cross-compiling
JEEB: msys is lots of trouble :V
JEEB: At least it works for me at the moment for x264 building
JEEB: but I guess cygwin isn't bad either :3
Kovensky: yea, cygwin is nice, just fuckslow
Kovensky: I need to get a new computer though, compiling everything on a Sempron 2800+ is not fun :/
GNU\colossus: cygwin makes windows (nearly) bearable.
JEEB: GNU\colossus, I've somehow gotten used to msys as a command line... which is kind of scary
Kovensky: always used MSYS as a command line
Kovensky: (before I switched to cygwin that is)
Kovensky: *cough* VLC *cough* <-- I tried it from git a few days ago; it appears to work, but CPU use is a bit higher than mplayer (probably VO stuff) and when it drops frames it drops with gusto
Kovensky: so I get blocking until the next keyframe :(
Kovensky: their libmatroska demuxer however seems to be OK; it extracted fonts, ass subs worked fine, and people on #videolan said ordered chapters works if you go on advanced settings and mess with the matroska settings to allow loading external files
JEEB: Kovensky, what's the most up-to-date cygwin mirror btw?
Kovensky: Show Settings: All, Input/Codecs -> Demuxers -> Matroska, check "Ordered Chapters", "Chapter codecs", "Preload Directory"
Kovensky: Kovensky, what's the most up-to-date cygwin mirror btw? <-- no idea, I tended to pick osuosl and kernel.org
JEEB: ok, I'll take the kernel.org one
Kovensky: goes finish his heroman episode
Kovensky: also, derp iowait
Kovensky: I get like 20s pauses while watching stuff without being able to do anything until the computer unlocks
ryan22: heh i guess the MPlayer Team made it completely official
kurros: yay politics
RambJoe: 32GB to 64GB
RambJoe: oh thats not whati thought it was, what happened to that seagate drive
robotti^: Hi! How sure is that Steam client for Linux?
The_Muh: maybe 60%
Rednaxela: It's 100% sure they've done some work on it of course, but yeah, 60% sounds like a good guess for if it'll see the light of day
The_Muh: but... the newest Mail from val... aperture sience could be a hint
Rednaxela: You mean Apature Silence The_Muh ;)
The_Muh: oh... damn
The_Muh: oh... öh...
The_Muh: <- tired
Rednaxela: What's this about "newest Mail" The_Muh ?
The_Muh: that one with the "suprise"-announcement for the E3
scheka: Rednaxela: from a german webiste with the english mail: http://www.hlportal.de/?site=news&do=shownews&news_id=7938
Rednaxela: I just saw a report on it on a different site when searching (not the mail itself though, so thanks)
RambJoe: wow was this just posted today
Rednaxela: I doubt the surprise would be Steam for Linux though
Rednaxela: but... well can't rule it out
RambJoe: oh damn
RambJoe: that wasn't linux related
Rednaxela: I'd particularly strongly doubt it's a linux related surprise considering "If you'd like to ask fruitless questions about the E3 Portal 2 surprise", which suggests it's more pertinent to Portal 2 than anything else
Tallken: anyone noticed http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey has 0% windows users? xD
Rednaxela: And yet has 53.18% DX10 on Vista/Win7? Hah
The_Muh: Its a typo - not DX10, sondern OGL4 xD
The_Muh: ah.. damn... sry about the german word
Rednaxela: Here's something curious: NTFS percentage is only 91%, dropping 8%
The_Muh: is mixing german and english...
Rednaxela: Surely people didn't switch to older MS filesystems... so is that NTFS drop accurately representative of incoming Macs maybe?
The_Muh: when is speak german, i use english words and know i use german words when i speak english
RambJoe: could it be linux then :D
The_Muh: gn8... i should sleep...
mastertheknife: anyone thinks the suprise might be linux ?
Rednaxela: To me, it seems unlikely considering the way they word it
Rednaxela: i.e. "If you'd like to ask fruitless questions about the E3 Portal 2 surprise"
RambJoe: maybe the surprise is
DeathCrawler: Valve troll me =/
RambJoe: portal 2 coming on pc, mac, xbox, linux
mastertheknife: Rednaxela: pengiun is fruitless
RambJoe: pc meaning windows for some reason
Tallken: I doubt any press-release related thing for something like E3 is Linux
DeathCrawler: Vacations coming and without Steam
RambJoe: who said they were going to annoucned portal 2 anyway
Tallken: unless Canonical is planning some major badass Console-like system running Ubuntu & Steam
mastertheknife: Tallken: Linux in E3 is much better than Mac in E3
RambJoe: all we got was a BSOD
RambJoe: maybe its a hint at linux as linux doesn't get BSOD
Tallken: mastertheknife: the hype is a lot less
Rednaxela: mastertheknife: Yes, but I mean "E3 Portal 2 surprise" indicates it pertains to Portal 2 more than anything else. I would expect a more steam-centric comment if it was about LinuxSteam
Rednaxela: Here's an idea! Valve's message specifically eggs people to send fruitless questions to "Valve's Special Envoy to Surprises". Send speculation there :P
DeathCrawler: hate this
mastertheknife: Rednaxela: you have a point, its probably something related to Portal 2
Tallken: They're Releasing Plor details! Ep3 is on Mars!!!
mastertheknife: Another growing linux thread
RambJoe: noticed the "LInux client" thread in 2010 ui has died a bit
mastertheknife: can't let those threads die
Rednaxela: They have to die eventually
mastertheknife: but theres no client ye
mastertheknife: everytime i suspect one dies ill just find a post to quote and reply to it i guess
mastertheknife: want the threads in first page, so when gabe visits the forums, he'll see those linux threads
Rednaxela: Better to let Valve know of interest than effectively zombifying a thread IMO. Such as... perhaps poking that "Special Envoy to Surprises"?
RambJoe: lol yeah instead of just 2 massive threads
RambJoe: we need loads of little threads so its all over the forums
RambJoe: big threads dont stand out much on the thread list as it doesn't show the pages the thread has like most forums do
Rednaxela: Heh, loads of little threads do no good if they're all basically the same in meaning. It's silly and abusive to make a new thread without a fresh topic or fresh news/perspective on the topic
RambJoe: wheres the steam on linux confirmed tux picture that was on steamonlinux.com
Sleepy_Coder: I say open a new post under each game category asking about porting of the title to Linux and when the Steam Linux client is going to be released. That would stand out.
Sleepy_Coder: Latest posts + all categories
Sleepy_Coder: continues torrenting Patent Absurdity
mastertheknife: there are 2 big threads now and 1 growing thread (in suggestions forum)
mastertheknife: just need to keep those alive
Sleepy_Coder: I'll laugh if there's a Valve employee in here laughing to himself about all the stategy you lot are coordinating :p
Sleepy_Coder: Would be even more killer if it were a herself.
Sleepy_Coder: Women programmers are sexy as hell.
RambJoe: maybe half of valve is in here
Azerthoth: yup, artificially generating the appearance of interest, worked for Obama
RambJoe: the 100 idlers
RambJoe: does gabe post on the forum?
Sleepy_Coder: Let it be LiveJournal XD
Sleepy_Coder: Remember when LJ was as big as MySpace?
Azerthoth: for the 3 days after myspace opened ... sure
Rednaxela: Sleepy_Coder: I work in a large software lap. Interestingly 1/5 people are women. Funny enough, 90% of those women are in non-coding positions
Sleepy_Coder: i cried :9
Sleepy_Coder: lol RambJoe
Sleepy_Coder: using std::sammich;
Rednaxela: Nah, not kitchen
Rednaxela: More business/hr/docs/marketing
Sleepy_Coder: I always wanted Multiwinia ported to Linux.
Sleepy_Coder: Darwinia was minorly fun, Multiwinia I spent weekends playing.
Sleepy_Coder: Traitors never ported it :(
RambJoe: fuck why did i get VGA monitor
Rednaxela: Maybe they would if Steam port saw the light of day?
RambJoe: i can see noise top left
RambJoe: i hate this "HD" bs
RambJoe: rip 1920x1200
Sleepy_Coder: lol hd @ 30fps
Sleepy_Coder: (see last 5 or so xkcd)
Sleepy_Coder: I hadn't noticed that until he posted about it :) Not a TV person myself.
Rednaxela: One thing that amuses me is how component video was something people made a big deal about in the mid to late DVD days... when really its wasn't all that different from VGA with a few signals removed
Rednaxela: and much lower resolution/etc
Sleepy_Coder: yay good video
Sleepy_Coder: Patent Absurdity <3
Sleepy_Coder: Was so worth torrenting in "HD" to see RMS clearly.
Sleepy_Coder: So i wonder which key players in Computer Science are going to die first.
Sleepy_Coder: Donald Knuth, Bill Gates, Richard Stallman, Steve Jobbs, ...
Sleepy_Coder: What sucks about this prospective future is that only RMS and Knuth would really care about what he leaves behind. Jobbs and Gates are in it for the money. Knuth and Stallman want to continue on ideals.. are pretty much the basis for their existence. :\
Sleepy_Coder: And then there are other key players, Tovalds...etc...
Sleepy_Coder: Hrrm. Would be a significant blow to any party to lose one of them though.
Sleepy_Coder: If Torvalds or Stallman dies, there won't be anyone with significant sway to defend the use of C over C++ :<
Sleepy_Coder: http://www.stallman.org/photos/rms-full-size.jpg Hmm he has extremely healthy looking feet.
Sleepy_Coder: holy crap I have that book at the top of the photo on the white bookshelf, "The Way Things Work"
Sleepy_Coder: I feel so fanboy-like :D
Tallken: Sleepy_Coder: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8isw5/richard_stallman_eats_something_from_his_foot/
Sleepy_Coder: Maybe he produces food from his feet :o
Sleepy_Coder: What a cool trick
tkmorris: now I gotta eat
Sleepy_Coder: I don't think there is anyone out there capable of replacing RMS... would be a shame to lose him.
Sleepy_Coder: Either software patents go down before he dies, or he dies and software innovation is forced underground.
Sleepy_Coder: What he does for free software and open-source development, it shouldn't be tied to the GNU or Linux... something that should carry across to Windows and Mac devs also :>
Sleepy_Coder: I know a lot of Windows fanboy developers that disregard anything he pushes because of his love of Linux, etc...
Rednaxela: RMS doesn't love Linux. RMS loves GNU/Linux, and dreams of a GNU/Hurd future ;)
Sleepy_Coder: wanted to see something like a POSIX-compliant microkernel with a Linux compatibility layer... basically what GNU/Hurd does... but without all the dreadfully slow development.
Azerthoth: stallman ending software patents, lets first try a more realistic approach and see what bilski kicks out before we work on fantasy
Sleepy_Coder: Well it's not like I personally care about patents or licensing or any of that bullshit, but I do emphathize with friends who program for a living. :>
Sleepy_Coder: er... empathize* XD
Rednaxela: Heh, patents never help people who program for a living. They help lawyers
Rednaxela: (licensing on the other hand, is valid)
bluekoala: Any hardware gurus here that dealt with lots of cases of freezing computers?
Aondo: freezing computers... always fun.. :P
bluekoala: Only freezes in full screen games
Aondo: any game?
bluekoala: I was a pc tech but I can't figure out my own pc
bluekoala: I was playing nexiuz just now before I pressed the power button
bluekoala: I know it's not likely software related
bluekoala: It did the same thing in windows
Aondo: ah ok
bluekoala: I bought a new PSU
bluekoala: Still does it
bluekoala: I stress tested the CPU, worked fine
bluekoala: For over a day
bluekoala: I stress tested the GPU, worked fine for hours
Aondo: well it might be heat, ram issue, graphic card issue,
Aondo: if it's only with game i would try swap graphic card
bluekoala: At this point I wanna swap CPU RAM & VGA
bluekoala: It did the same with a different VGA
bluekoala: But I'm only 80% sure
bluekoala: Cause the fan died on the other one
bluekoala: Strange problem
bluekoala: I guess I'm doomed to wait for an upgrade
bluekoala: Next mobo I get, won't be asus; always had bad luck with asus
bluekoala: Damn sexy asus
Aondo: sound like me, "never wd again"
viridari: next mobo I get will have two SPARC processors instead of just 1.
Rednaxela: I feel lucky that I've never had a hard disk crash before
Rednaxela: Also, I often hear people say things like "never wd again" or "never seagate", but really... all of them seem to have a poor track record to some extent these days
viridari: never BP again... never citgo again... never exxon again... if people meant it, they'd be riding bicycles
bluekoala: But I've had good luck with WD
bluekoala: Bad luck with seagate
bluekoala: Though my last seagate was 40 megs
Aondo: my experience with wd is way back tho.
viridari: over the weekend I upgraded my 15 year old Seagate disk to a slightly less old IBM disk.
Aondo: guess there is always margin of error on everything
bluekoala: 15 yr old huh
bluekoala: How big? 7GB?
viridari: actually took out one seagate and replaced with two disks... Fujitsu MAS3184NC 18G and IBM (rebadged Fujitsu) MAT3147NC
viridari: bluekoala: 4G
viridari: bluekoala: it's in front of me now, one of these: http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/validateUser.do?target=Systems/Example/Devices/DISK_Sgte_ST34371WC
bluekoala: Aondo: LINUX CONFIRMED!
bluekoala: Scsi, Nice!
bluekoala: I had a scsi in my 286 10mhz
viridari: bluekoala: the Suns didn't use IDE until the Ultra 5 & 10's came out. This is a little older.
bluekoala: It had a pin that would spin
bluekoala: And you could see it spin
bluekoala: It was cool
DeathCrawler: SURPRISE= MAH LINUX CLIENT
bluekoala: viridari: I thought you were kidding about the SPARC proc
viridari: bluekoala: do a CTCP version against me
Rednaxela: Hm... 64... that reminds me... wonder if I should bother doing a x86_64 install some time
Modplan: everybody will play Portal 2 on PC's at E3 event. Valve will ask them to asl-tab and...tah dah! they were using Ubuntu desktop all along
viridari: they should support OpenBSD on SPARC64
bluekoala: You can replace that last bit with "FGLRX fails"
viridari: it might not look as good over a serial console but I'll take what I can get
viridari: pr0n isn't quite the same on this thing either
bluekoala: You should try the X86 platform
bluekoala: We have this thing called "flash" and "redtube"
viridari: http://pastebin.ca/1875764 is about as good as it gets (technically NSFW but who will know?)
viridari: I have flash, too. But I haven't had to flash the PROM since about '97 or '98 on this thing.
viridari: not quite old enough for tubes, red or otherwise. That was the previous machine.
bluekoala: Right, the flash I'm talking about doesn't require a reboot
bluekoala: Do you live in a big corporation's garbage room or something?
viridari: if you degauss your CRT & squint your eyes, it's almost like she's really there squirming in front of you.
bluekoala: I'm impressed your CRT degausses :P
viridari: hahaha the stuff my employer throws out makes your PC look like a pocket calculator ;)
viridari: I just wish I could lay hands on it
bluekoala: So you can run AS400? :P
viridari: actually I run mostly RHEL on those boxes
viridari: but they can run AIX
viridari: a few years back I put Gentoo on one of them for shits & giggles. "time emerge mysql" .... 12 seconds
Rednaxela: Modplan: That would be hilarious. Doubt it, but it has enough flair to match Valve's tastes
bluekoala: But in 30 years from now
bluekoala: It'll probably still be running
viridari: the only reason I slapped a new hard disk in here is because modern software developers & packagers (especially packagers) aren't very selective about what libraries they require
bluekoala: Are or aren't?
viridari: so installing finch (command line version of pidgin IM client) pulls in X11 and pidgin, GTK, etc. Eww.
viridari: what does a machine that has never had a monitor attached to it need with GTK or X11?
bluekoala: Bragging rights
viridari: anyway that kind of thing is becoming increasingly common
viridari: so the 4G drive got bumped to 18G, and then I added in a 140G disk for /home
viridari: also have a memory upgrade sitting here to take it from 128MB RAM to 1G but I don't see the point considering I'm using only about 80MB or so.
viridari: Memory: Real: 34M/78M act/tot Free: 36M Swap: 17M/256M used/tot
bluekoala: I'm at 420mbs with ubuntu 10.04
bluekoala: Out of 4gbs ish
bluekoala: I was running windows before
bluekoala: Now I don't need more than 2GBS
viridari: I can see why you switched. Not enough RAM for Windows?
bluekoala: I had enough RAM
bluekoala: I just don't feel good about running windows
bluekoala: Except for gaming
viridari: tries to piece together a metaphor linking Windows to glory holes
bluekoala: Turns your screen into a glory hole?
bluekoala: With your face right in front of it?
viridari: I'll save it for my next book
viridari: Glory Holes for Dummies
bluekoala: Are you saying I'm having a conversation with you but you keep all the best stuff you come up with for a book you plan on selling? :P
viridari: it's a figure of speech
viridari: there hasn't been a first book
viridari: but I guess the first book can be the next book
bluekoala: lol ok ok
viridari: O'Reilly & Associates Old Crusty Computers in a Nutshell
bluekoala: You just made time travel possible
godofgrunts: Thank you
godofgrunts: Been trying to for years
bluekoala: Now please don't try to figure out the division by zero; at least not on this galaxy
godofgrunts: But you have to divide by 0 to time travel
bluekoala: Well, It can't screw up the world much worse than the idea of charging interest
bluekoala: MSI 890FXA-GD70 AM3 AMD 890FX SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX AMD Motherboard
godofgrunts: Thank you for posting a newegg listing
bluekoala: AMD Phenom II X6 1055T Thuban 2.8GHz
bluekoala: I think that's going to be my next system
viridari: now all I need is an sbus sata controller with sun prom on it
godofgrunts: Don't forget to get your 1.21 gigawatt power supply so you can go back in time
bluekoala: I can't afford that
godofgrunts: Time travel dude. You can go back in time, buy up all the gas, come in the future and sell it
bluekoala: I can only fit so much in a deslaurian
bluekoala: I can go back to asia and trade pennies for gold coins
viridari: just go back and buy a few comic books. best return on investment.
godofgrunts: At one point in time, Aluminum was worth more than gold
bluekoala: Boy, time travel would really do a number on the economy
godofgrunts: take back a shit ton of aluminum foil
bluekoala: Bring an iPad to pharaoh ramses
viridari: bring a copy of today's newspaper to Thomas Jefferson
viridari: then get some popcorn & watch
bluekoala: If you had the chance to go back in time, and prevent a big disater from happenning by doing something perceived as evil/murderous, would you do it?
viridari: like shooting hitler?
bluekoala: Or st-patrick
viridari: I'm going to have to say no
viridari: I've watched enough Doctor Who to know that certain events are fixed
bluekoala: I didn't understand what was going on on Dr. Who
bluekoala: I was much too young
bluekoala: But I got freaked out by those brain looking alien things
viridari: The Ood?
viridari: with the squid faces?
bluekoala: Squid faces I guess
viridari: like little baby cthulhus
bluekoala: Yeah I think so
bluekoala: I had trouble sleeping for weeks lol
bluekoala: I gtg, gf is pissed
Rednaxela: What a way to go
RambJoe: whens e3
CastleFox: a couple weeks
viridari: nerdgasm! http://raleigh.craigslist.org/sys/1708743607.html
Kano: hi michaellarabel
michaellarabel: Hi Kano
Kano: do you go to berlin next week
Kano: i do too
Kano: when will you be there
michaellarabel: I'll be there from 8 June to 15 June I believe are the dates.
Azerthoth: viridari, now for shipping to alaska, that would kill me
Kano: i will be there from 9 evening to 13th mornig
viridari: Azerthoth: luckily those systems are local for me. However they weigh 200 lbs each
viridari: seller claims 100+ lbs each but I know better. It's more like 200 lbs if he has no disks in it.
godofgrunts: Guys, is there a how to for geting PTS to work in Arch Linux?
godofgrunts: Hello? Anyone?
godofgrunts: I'm getting PHP Fatal error: Class 'GTKWindow' not found in /usr/share/phoronix-test-suite/pts-core/objects/gtk/pts_gtk_window.php on line 23
godofgrunts: okay that was my fault for not including php_gtk2.so
godofgrunts: but now I get
godofgrunts: PHP Warning: PHP Startup: Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php/modules/php_gtk2.so' - /usr/lib/php/modules/php_gtk2.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory in Unknown on line 0
godofgrunts: PHP Fatal error: Class 'GTKWindow' not found in /usr/share/phoronix-test-suite/pts-core/objects/gtk/pts_gtk_window.php on line 23
godofgrunts: WAKE UP
godofgrunts: "Surprise" coming for us at E3!
godofgrunts: Please be Linux client
DeathCrawler: waitin' for this
Rednaxela: godofgrunts: Already been repeated too many times tonight. Already been pointed out the wording suggests it's more Portal-related than Steam-related and thus not likely to be Linux-related