Phoronix IRC Log: 2010-05-31
ryan22: eh nobody's perfect i suppose. i know im not:p
mastertheknife: hey ryan22 i saw the video you posted here yesterday.. hehe
ryan22: lol ya i got from facebook :P
ryan22: they did a pretty good job
Azalyn: jesus fuck on a stick. the linux channel has gone totally nazi.
Azalyn: you can't even say "damn" or "ass" now.
Azalyn: geeks are supposed to swear
Azalyn: it's part of our culture :O
mikeplus64: No it's fuobfuscationcking not!
Azalyn: but geeks also are supposed to have good sentence structure.
Zeroedout: man, when did people on irc start pandering to the lowest common denominator
Azalyn: so that should be "No it fuobfuscationcking isn't"
Azalyn: i wonder if this op is religious.
Azalyn: 'damn' is only a curse word to religious people.
mikeplus64: Hey. Don't you bring His Noodliness into this.
Zeroedout: the r'tard might be afraid of "insulting" others
Azalyn: not *that* religion.
Azalyn: anyone who feels insulted if you say damn, deserves it.
Azalyn: 'damn' is probably one of the tamest words that people will say when they are frustrated.
mikeplus64: is studying.
mikeplus64: IRC is great procrastination.
mastertheknife: meGenius: What is wrong with that?
mastertheknife: meGenius: you and the media are missing some clear facts
mastertheknife: israel simply did what any country would do, prevent an unknown ship with unknown luggage from entering its terrortial border. The ship was all intentional to create hate against israel, if they really wanted to supply aid, they could do it through israel by the ship docking at israel and supplying those aids through the roads and borders
mikeplus64: 4 people on ##linux with az ( upper or lowercase ) as the first two letters of their names.
mikeplus64: Conspiracy I say, this must mean...
mikeplus64: Steam on Linux is confirmed!
eto: Azalyn i agree fully about swearing
eto: mikeplus64 really, Valve confirmed it?
mikeplus64: eto: Nope, just my deductive skills here. ( 4 people on ##linux with 'az' as the first two letters of their aliases, therefore Steam on Linux is confirmed )
mikeplus64: The part where there was logic was left behind somewhere.
eto: heh :)
mastertheknife: I want steam_client_linux back :/
The_Muh: < dito
mastertheknife: meGenius: Also, watch the video here, you will see those "friendly" people on the ship attacking as soon as IDF arrives: http://www.mako.co.il/news-military/security/Article-065be48a37de821004.htm&sCh=3d385dd2dd5d4110&pId=978777604
mastertheknife: Its amazing how the world media is so biased
Azalyn: who cares what people in the middle of the desert are doing.
MPX: Hey I know if somebody came into my house uninvited
MPX: I'd crash a stick on them too
Modplan: I did that once
Modplan: I was the one in the wrong house
MPX: PS: I didnt know that aid thru isrealis reaching the muslims were allowed
MPX: and I don't think it still is :P
Nevtus: mastertheknife: biased media isn't really surprsing, it is owned by the same small group of people such Rupert Murdoch
Nevtus: *such as
MPX: I don't think there exists one neutral media source on this planet
Nevtus: that and they just copy each other and google things instead of researching because journalsim is dead
Nevtus: spelling is off since I joke woke up...
Nevtus: oh damn
Nevtus: that wasn't intentional, honest
MPX: woke joke up ? xD
Nevtus: why do people still think video drivers on linux are bad?
mikeplus64: Nevtus: Because for things like Steam, on anything other than the proprietary NVIDIA drivers right now, people with have performance problems. The open source ones just aren't mature yet.
mikeplus64: Unless someone wants to prove me wrong...
Nevtus: I thought the ati ones were getting better?
Nevtus: I'm an nvidia user
mastertheknife: They're definitely better than Mac's ones, yet Mac has a client. people in those forums need to stop trolling
Ivanovic: mikeplus64: uhm, the proprietary ati drivers are identical in speed to the windows version
Ivanovic: the proprietary drivers, no matter if from ati or nvidia, do a fine job for the common, native opengl apps
mikeplus64: Ivanovic: But the proprietary ATi drivers will work on Windows 9/10 times. On the Linux version you need some ye olde x server.
Ivanovic: no, you don't
mikeplus64: is surprised.
Ivanovic: that is: you might need an older xserver only when you rely on a bleeding edge distribution
mikeplus64: Where bleeding edge is anything but Ubuntu?
Ivanovic: and even there ati is currently catching up since the next ubuntu will most likely use an xserver 1.8.x
Ivanovic: mikeplus64: anything but ubuntu, redhat or suse following the ati definition
Ivanovic: mikeplus64: though from what i heard there are archlinux users with fglrx and xorg-server 1.8.x
mikeplus64: I'm a nvidia user and I use Arch, if I had an ATI card then I would see.
Ivanovic: i am gentoo user and love the open source ati drivers
Ivanovic: though before they were available for my rv670 based card i used fglrx and it worked fine
Ivanovic: yeah, those were xorg-server 1.6.x days
Ivanovic: honestly, much of the bad reputation the proprietary ati driver has is based on 5 year old things
Ivanovic: at that time it was perfectly valid
Ivanovic: these days the driver is quite okay
mikeplus64: Go around say the Wings 3D forums, there are heaps of graphical display problems related with ATi drivers. ( most of which on Windows, so maybe not on fglrx )
Azalyn: Ivanovic: what is the 3D like?
Azalyn: on the open drivers
Ivanovic: mikeplus64: most problems with fglrx on linux are due to the system being f***cked up
Ivanovic: Azalyn: depends
Ivanovic: Azalyn: zero problem playing aquaria, world of goo and the likes (those use opengl, just for 2d stuff)
Ivanovic: jack keane and ankh2 do currently crash
Ivanovic: sacred gold is rather slowish but playable enough for me to finish the game (zoomed out all the way i get something between 10 and 15fps)
Azalyn: hm.. what about compiz though?
Ivanovic: i am not on gnome
Ivanovic: Sysinfo for 'rechner1': Linux 2.6.34-01041-gdebb980 running KDE Development Platform 4.4.3 (KDE 4.4.3), CPU: Intel(R) Core 2 Quad CPU Q9300 @ 2.50GHz at 2000 MHz (4999 bogomips), HD: 234/1162GB, RAM: 3853/3962MB, 170 proc's, 4.26h up
Ivanovic: over here kwin desktop effects using opengl or xrender just work
Azalyn: i got a 2400 pro for a machine in the living room. in expectation of the ati drivers getting good enough one day. since i've decided to stop buying nvidia ever since ati started opening docs.
Ivanovic: no matter if using the video preview stuff at task switching or moving semi transparent windows around
Azalyn: but i've been using fglrx for now
Ivanovic: for all the normal desktop stuff beside heavy 3d usage the open source driver is IMO fine
Ivanovic: videos work without problems
Ivanovic: 2d accell is basically perfect
Ivanovic: and the system is rock solid
Azalyn: i don't suppose you know if multi-head is working ok also?
Ivanovic: okay, i am following bleeding edge, that is xf86-video-ati, mesa and libdrm right from git master
Ivanovic: i use two displays attached where my tv (some fullhd thingie) does mirror the normal screen
Azalyn: i have the second head plugged into the tv through an hdmi-to-dvi adaptor. i don't really use that often, but i would like it to work though.
Ivanovic: since the screens are different i can only get vsync (for videos) on one of the two screens
Ivanovic: it does "just work"
Azalyn: hm, but you're mirroring you said
Ivanovic: relying on the normal xorg progs, xrandr
Ivanovic: so something like bigger desktop and the likes should work, too
Azalyn: are you using the gallium3d work?
Azalyn: or is this on legacy mesa or whatever
Ivanovic: i tried it for a short time yesterday and it was not working nicely
Ivanovic: mesa is *NOT* legacy
Ivanovic: it is the classic mesa driver for r600
Azalyn: well, whatever, the old thing.
Azalyn: which is being replaced by gallium.
Ivanovic: (the r600 gallium driver is brand new and not tested at all)
Ivanovic: it will still take some time for r600g to mature
Azalyn: aren't they abandoning the current driver in favor of continuing all future work on gallium though?
Ivanovic: the current driver is still there and working
Azalyn: hm, well, maybe i'll check it out.
Ivanovic: and yeah, it was improved since mesa 7.8 was released
Ivanovic: not as much as the r300g driver, but it was improved
Azalyn: honestly i'd be 'ok' with fglrx for now if they would just fix that god damn minimize/restore bug.. where it lags for a second when you restore a minimized window
Ivanovic: uhm, ain't that one fixed in the latest fglrx?
Ivanovic: 10.5 that is
Ivanovic: or: turn the minimize/maximize effect off
Azalyn: not sure, but if so, then ubuntu hasn't stabilized it yet.
Azalyn: because i upgraded to lucid, and that issue is still there.
Ivanovic: would never trust on what ubuntu stabilizes and what not
msstake: i'm running 10.5 now and it still seems to be an issue
Ivanovic: there are too many examples when they stabilized something where eg debian had a blocker for this
Azalyn: heh, that's why i use gentoo on my own system.
Azalyn: that other one is just the living room pc.
Ivanovic: (latest example: broken libsdl1.2.14, clicking for several apps (best example: wesnoth) not possible while windowed)
Azalyn: anyways, i'm glad progress is being made on ati's opensource 3d stuff. it honestly can't come soon enough. heh
Azalyn: i've already decided to not get any more nvidia. but meanwhile the wait for well-performing opensource 3d is killing me :)
mikeplus64: You never know, maybe nouveau will catch up?
Azalyn: i hope they can eventually reach the proprietary drivers in performance.
Ivanovic: Azalyn: on gentoo you can easily test the git version of mesa and the likes
Ivanovic: really nice to see the progress
Ivanovic: mikeplus64: the problem with nvidia cards is nvidia being uncooperative
mikeplus64: Ivanovic: Yeah.
Ivanovic: they do provide exactly zero assistance for open source driver work
Azalyn: yeah, what Ivanovic said.
Ivanovic: sure, on windows they might be a tiny bit faster in games
Ivanovic: plus offer physix acceleration and whatnot
Ivanovic: on the downside the cards use more power with the proprietary driver (without significantly better fps numbers) and are by far louder
Azalyn: i mean hey, i'll be happy when nouveau is completed, since i already have older nvidia hardware that i would like to have opensource support for. like the machine i'm on has a 7900GS, which is from long before amd had even acquired ati.
mikeplus64: I kind of need good 3D acceleration. ( hobbyist CG artist, occasionally gotten a little job to design something for someone )
mikeplus64: So 'naturally' I use the proprietary nvidia drivers.
Ivanovic: mikeplus64: and people like you could easily rely on the proprietary ati driver
Azalyn: but for any future purchases, i'm not going to support them now that there is a company providing documentation and support to the community to make opensource 3d a reality.
Ivanovic: no real problem there
Ivanovic: i do know that there is a "need" for those well optimized drivers that are good for 3d and the likes
Azalyn: even worse though, is that nvidia is starting to really suck, their latest chips are terrible apparently. they are furnaces.
mikeplus64: Ivanovic: "easily" on something other than Ubuntu, without relying on those patches and such?
Azalyn: where as AMD's stuff is efficient and far more powerful.
Ivanovic: but there is IMO also a need for a "just work" and rock solid solution that is well for all the 3d stuff
Ivanovic: mikeplus64: easily as in "i type emerge ati-drivers and the proprietary driver is just installed"
Azalyn: the 5xxx series smokes everything out there. so even from a performance (or performance per watt for that matter) standpoint, ati/amd are just better, period.
Ivanovic: mikeplus64: afterwards i switch to the fglrx opengl interface, block the open source kernel module from loading, select fglrx in xorg.conf and use the proprietary driver
mikeplus64: Ivanovic: But does it work with the X server you're running? ( or does it downgrade it? )
mikeplus64: I see.
Azalyn: the opensource support is more important to me personally, but the fact that ati/amd is making better products than nvidia anyways is just more icing on the cake.
Ivanovic: and yes, it would downgrade xorg-server to a working version if a blocking was listed in the ebuild
mikeplus64: It would be interesting to do a benchmark between similar ATi and Nvidia cards using the proprietary vs. open source drivers.
Ivanovic: IIRC phronix has already done those every now and then
Nevtus: I'm in a similar position to mikeplus64, if I can't run programs like Blender well I can't use the driver (I use proprietary nvidia too).
Rednaxela: The the likes of running Blender, intel integrated is just fine I'd say, and has open source and stable drivers
Ivanovic: if blender works nicely on the intel open source drivers it should also work nicely on the ati open source drivers
Azalyn: you probably wouldn't even need to block the opensource driver from loading. since it's the X driver which will try to load the kernel driver. so when you tell X to use fglrx, it will load the right driver.
mikeplus64: With those underpowered cards? Really?
Ivanovic: Azalyn: i need to block it because i got KMS active by default and the driver is loaded at boot time
Ivanovic: yeah, i do prefer to boot in a plain shell, login there and startx manually
Rednaxela: Heck, Blender is usable with Mesa SW/only rendering in my experience
Azalyn: oh, interesting.
mikeplus64: IF nvidia ever provided the sources to their drivers ( unlikely unless they are taken over or something by some Very Nice company ) then it would be awesome.
Rednaxela: Tis awfully non-demanding
Azalyn: i thought kms was a separate driver
mikeplus64: Rednaxela: But with a very dense scene or model? Does it support shaders?
mikeplus64: ( advanced shaders I mean - eg. normal mapping )
Ivanovic: Azalyn: no, kms is part of the radeon module for the kernel
Azalyn: the way things are going.. nvidia may get acquired by someone. but who knows who.
Azalyn: nvidia is kind of screwed
Rednaxela: Well, it was with fairly undemanding models, but still. I'm sure things like the integrated intel graphics would do much more than enough for all but the very very most ridiculous scenes
Nevtus: the is a difference between being able to open Blender, and being able to handle huge scenes well
mikeplus64: Nevtus ++
Azalyn: amd has the resources they need to make ati better than nvidia, and they've already done that. and it's likely they will continue to make everything better and better with each generation.
Nevtus: I can open Blender on my NC10 netbook but I'd NEVER actually use it there
Azalyn: i don't think ati has ever had a really terrible video card. like nvidia has had some pretty huge disasters in the past, like the GeForce FX series...
Azalyn: ati never had that.
Azalyn: but now that AMD is in charge, they are going to be a far bigger threat to nvidia than ever before. and of course, amd intends to combine the gpu and cpu. just like intel is planning with it's own video chipsets and cpus.
Azalyn: which leaves nvidia out in the cold. they've wanted to get an x86 license, but they can't. heh, who knows what they'll do.
mikeplus64: Azalyn: I think they're hoping their tegras and such will catch on.
Azalyn: in any case, if the ati proprietary drivers work as well as Ivanovic suggests, then your experience with blender shouldn't be any worse than with nvidia..
Azalyn: and you can look forward to the opensource drivers.
Azalyn: that's pretty much the path that i'm going to take for my stuff from now on.
Ivanovic: Azalyn: ati had a rather bad card not too long ago: the 2900
Ivanovic: that one was a real failure regarding power usage and all the likes
Azalyn: mikeplus64: tegra is not exactly going to do much in the desktop world..
Azalyn: Ivanovic: is that radeon hd ?
Ivanovic: yeah, the HD2900
Ivanovic: was a catastrophe regarding noise and power usage
Ivanovic: though the 38XX cards based on that architecture were great, offering basically the same speed with only a fraction of the power usage
Azalyn: apparently it beats the GeForce 8800 though..
Azalyn: is it really that bad?
Ivanovic: IMO yes
Ivanovic: that was the reason why the HD3850/HD3870 were such a great new in the press at those times
Azalyn: hm, only the 2900 specifically is affected?
Ivanovic: mainly that card
Azalyn: i have an hd 2400 pro
Ivanovic: that was the reason why the refresh, still based on r6xx got a new model number, the HD3XXX
Azalyn: hm, i hope this card isn't affected.
Azalyn: i mean it's a low end part, but even so..
mikeplus64: Hmm... I just thought of what could happen if Nvidia was gobbled up by Intel. Either they would open source the proprietary drivers or start a whole new one probably.
Azalyn: i'd hate to think i bought a broken chip.
Azalyn: mikeplus64: people have speculated about that before, it's never going to happen though.
Azalyn: intel and nvidia hate eachother, bigtime.
mikeplus64: Azalyn: I can dream. :)
Ivanovic: mikeplus64: opening up existing drivers is always a huge problem
mikeplus64: Ahhh good friends.
Azalyn: they're totally foaming at the mouth at eachother.
Ivanovic: mikeplus64: mainproblem there being the lovely software patents in the US
Ivanovic: (yeah, in most other places of the US there is no such problem, though it seems as if europe wants to play catch up on this bullsh**)
mikeplus64: But what CPU brand would Nvidia recommend? If they say AMD then they're promoting their main GPU competitor, and it seems they dislike Intel madly.
Ivanovic: that is: of course there is also the problem with agreements regarding hdcp
Ivanovic: mikeplus64: simple, they don't recommend any brand
mikeplus64: What would they use? Hum.
Azalyn: also, nvidia was making chipsets for intel machines.
Azalyn: and suddenly intel was like "no, you can't do that. sorry."
Azalyn: intel wants to do all their video crap in house.
mikeplus64: Good night everyone.
Azalyn: as for your question, that is exactly why nvidia is fucked.
Azalyn: because they have no allies now in the cpu market.
mikeplus64: I've got school tomorrow! ( hurraohcrapnotagain )
Azalyn: the only option they have, is something that will probably not work...
Azalyn: they have to have their own cpu basically.
Azalyn: in theory they could continue to use hypertransport.
Azalyn: and could therefore be used in any amd-compatible motherboard. as long as they use the same socket.
Azalyn: but it's doubtful whether they can get the same cpu performance as intel/amd. and they could get sued if they step on any patents.
NigeyUK: so.. 93% of steamonlinux visitors reckon linux is ready to be a solid gaming platform :o
Ivanovic: has been a great gaming platform for years
Ivanovic: you can play wesnoth on linux already for years
Ivanovic: and in fact it often works by far better on linux than it does on windows...
NigeyUK: it has, i agree, but many NEW linux users wont be aware of that lol
Ivanovic: (yes, windows is somehow slower for playing wesnoth)
NigeyUK: i still prefer to play Q3 and ut2004 on linux compared to windows
Azalyn: with quake3 the engine is opensource
Azalyn: i usually emerge the ioquake3 package
Azalyn: and then copy the pak file from the cd
Azalyn: and poof. it works.
NigeyUK: how long has that been Open source now, the q3 engine ?
Ivanovic: Azalyn: ain't there also a data package for emering?
Ivanovic: so that it does the copy stuff itself once the cd is mounted?
Azalyn: hm, i have no idea.
Azalyn: i've never tried that before.
Azalyn: this is the package i use. http://gentoo-portage.com/games-fps/quake3
Azalyn: oh, neato.
Ivanovic: since it (the package quake3) has a dependency on quake3-data it should automatically install the stuff (unless you don't have the useflag 'cdinstall' specified)
Azalyn: i guess next time i'll just use that.
Azalyn: much easier. and then it'll remove the data too when unmerging.
NigeyUK: i dont get all this emerge stuff with gentoo
Ivanovic: NigeyUK: what is it that you don't get?
Azalyn: it's the package manager...
Ivanovic: NigeyUK: it is rather easy on gentoo to use the package manager for basically everything
Azalyn: it's written in python.
NigeyUK: so its kinda like apt .. but smarter ?
Ivanovic: no matter if it is some proprietary package/installer or something right from version control or a normal sourcecode release
Ivanovic: it is not smarter, it is different
NigeyUK: hmm, may have to give gentoo a try then
Azalyn: the package management is based on bsd ports.
NigeyUK: although whenever i install a distro on virtualbox i get crc error on first boot :|
Ivanovic: ebuilds are basically scripts for the package manager that define what to do for a specific package
NigeyUK: ah i get ya
Ivanovic: this can be "download the source tarball, extract it, run configure with the params A, B and C, make and make install afterwards"
Ivanovic: or it is "call the installer file for fglrx and have it extract things, copy stuff to ABC"
NigeyUK: oh dam thats easy :D
Ivanovic: a nice example is probably wesnoth
Ivanovic: just click on "view" to see how such an ebuild can be done
Ivanovic: there are dependencies listed, there are "usecases" and all the likes
NigeyUK: looking now, and it handles all dependacies fine ?
Ivanovic: of course, this is the official gentoo package for wesnoth
Ivanovic: just like a deb on debian loads the dependencies, so does the ebuild specify and load them
NigeyUK: i know what im doing later tonight then :D
Ivanovic: or an example how things can look for a commercial package: http://gentoo-portage.com/games-rpg/sacred-gold
Ivanovic: yeah, this does install sacred-gold from the dvd using your package manager and applies the latest patch
NigeyUK: oh i like this, seems very simple, i thought gentoo was mega complex etc etc
Ivanovic: it takes some time getting used to things
Ivanovic: what is special about gentoo is that you can basically configure anything
Ivanovic: you don't want to have pulseaudio? no problem!
NigeyUK: haha yes please get rid of pulseaudio!
Ivanovic: or you want pulseaudio, but not in some progs, there you prefer alsa? easily possible, too
Ivanovic: that are those lovely useflag, with those you can finetune what exactly you want to have at the end
NigeyUK: i'l def give it a try, now someone has explained it a bit :D cheers Ivanovic
Ivanovic: yeah, it makes things rather complex for someone knowing nothing about linux and what is what
Ivanovic: if you got no clue what you are doing: gentoo is nothing for you
Ivanovic: if you are able to read, use google and not afraid of using a terminal for initial setup and configuration: gentoo can be really nice
NigeyUK: yeah def not for a new guy, im quite happy poking around in the terminal, it takes me a while but i get there in the end
NigeyUK: i like ubuntu cause it just works, for the most part, but i have 158 IPTV servers all running my own LFS build so im ok with terminal configs
Ivanovic: gentoo is basically LFS on steroids
NigeyUK: sweet! lfs can be insanely annoying at times mind
Ivanovic: consider that you have alfs with the packages from blfs
Ivanovic: and an easy way to update every single package
NigeyUK: thats what i call lfs heaven
Ivanovic: for example the content of my /var/lib/portage/world: http://pastebin.com/wceJQNw5
Ivanovic: this file includes the packages that tell portage/emerge the packages you do want in your system
NigeyUK: i'm quite happy with it on the iptv servers mind, minimal packages, stable kernel, they just sit there and plod on without much tinkering once theyre configged, and as all the hardware was the same, it was just a clone the drive job after the initial master was running
Ivanovic: everything else is gathered based on the dependencies provided by those packages
NigeyUK: that dir looks so tidy and organised!
Ivanovic: so this results in a little above 800 packages being installed here
Ivanovic: it is not a dir, it is a single file listing the packages (sometimes including explicit versions) i want
NigeyUK: whats xdelta:0 ?
Ivanovic: that is xdelta from the slot "0"
NigeyUK: aha i get ya
Ivanovic: this is the exact package+version i got installed here: dev-util/xdelta-1.1.4-r1:0
NigeyUK: well ill give gentoo a try tonight, as long as virtuabox stops crc erroring the installed image
Ivanovic: personally i'd recommend directly heading for "gentoo unstable"
Ivanovic: sometimes it takes ages till packages end in "stable"
Ivanovic: where bleeding edge is perfectly fine
NigeyUK: ah oki, cheers for the heads up on that
NigeyUK: nvidia drivers behave themselves on gentoo i assume ?
Ivanovic: i think so, at least there is a package called "nvidia-drivers"
NigeyUK: lol oh yey
Ivanovic: here an example of how my /etc/make.conf looks (yeah, rather well tuned to exactly what i want) http://pastebin.com/tFw6z2WC
NigeyUK: j5 ?
Ivanovic: this is the file that configures the package manager and tells it some basic "that is what i expect you to get" parameters
Ivanovic: yeah, got a quadcore
Ivanovic: so make can try to use up to 5 threads
Ivanovic: gentoo *does* compile most packages
NigeyUK: oh sweet, so this file, is made during install, and tweaked or ?
Ivanovic: this is a file you work on before doing the "real" install stuff
Ivanovic: the manual does mention it and how to find out useflags you might want
NigeyUK: oki, im not so scared now :D
NigeyUK: wondering if j3 would be ok for dual core ?
Azalyn: the rule of thumb is to have one more thread than you have cores.
Azalyn: i use j3 on my dual core.
NigeyUK: ohh, so like i do now, if i dont specify j3 .. it just uses a single thread regardless of what cpu it detects ?
Azalyn: the default i think may be j2
NigeyUK: now to bad then
christian_lappy: NigeyUK: proof of conecept would be bad
NigeyUK: why do you say that ?
christian_lappy: Azalyn: the default is j1 iirc
christian_lappy: NigeyUK: a beta would be better
Ivanovic: no, the default is -j1
Ivanovic: so yeah, you only use one thread by default
NigeyUK: dam that sucks, must remember j3 from now on lol
christian_lappy: or j17 for my servers at work ;-)
Ivanovic: NigeyUK: there are packages where it makes no difference at all
NigeyUK: christian_lappy, rc would be better than what we have now let alone beta lol
Ivanovic: others though work lovely with more threads (great example: the kernel)
christian_lappy: proof of concepts are often diteched for various reasons
NigeyUK: oh yes, i bet the kernels a tad faster
christian_lappy: Ivanovic: qt works fine
christian_lappy: Ivanovic: it takes AGES on 1 cpu
NigeyUK: j17? WTF?!
Ivanovic: christian_lappy: most packages work fine with -j
Ivanovic: just some only utulize one core
Ivanovic: IIRC glibc was one of those cases (not 100% sure)
Ivanovic: when extracting and applying patches of course only one core is used, the same for installing
christian_lappy: NigeyUK: some brand new servers at work :-)
Ivanovic: the -j# flag is only relevant for compilation
NigeyUK: 8 core ?
christian_lappy: yeah, +ht
NigeyUK: sweet, bet they fly!
christian_lappy: they do..in combination with 48gig of ram..a dream
NigeyUK: to much ram, i bet its ecc to ?
christian_lappy: iirc, yes
Modplan: the last thing I just heard in quitting a TF2 game..."Caterpillars, in my vagina?"
NigeyUK: pmsl wtf
christian_lappy: hopefully valve gives us some news in june
Modplan: 2 years ago phoronix speculated that source/steam for linux would be around sometime that june
Modplan: Steam for Linux has been confrimed for 2 years!
christian_lappy: july *2009*
Modplan: yeah, well, at least I have my blanky
Modplan: so neh
Azalyn: Modplan: whoever said that in your tf2 game failed. it's supposed to be centipedes.
Azalyn: lame newfags.
Modplan: Azalyn how was it wrong?
Azalyn: Modplan: the meme involves centipedes, not caterpillars.
The_Muh: yay... germany is headless... xD
Azalyn: they got rid of their displays?
Flyser_: has his own head. no need for a president
The_Muh: our president resigned
andar: was that the hot president?
Flyser_: It was not like he had any power ...
The_Muh: we have a cancler and a president... weird system here...
Flyser_: hot president?
Azerthoth: do you think he could convince ours?
GNU\colossus: "Cancler" is a nice twist of meanings, though
Azalyn: we have a prime minister and a monarch here. :|
Azalyn: although no one knows about the latter.
The_Muh: canada have a monarch? wtf?
Azerthoth: its not that no one knows, its no one cares :)
Azalyn: it's more of a formality. it's not like the uk actually does anything...
Azalyn: sometimes the queen visits... waves her hand at people
Azalyn: that's pretty much it.
Azalyn: and we have a representative called the governor general. also a formality
Azalyn: basically it's one of those things we could probably get rid of overnight with no side effects, but we're too lazy to do it.
The_Muh: our president have to sign the Laws - or the Laws arent... dunno how to say that...
Azalyn: Azerthoth: i think a lot of people don't really know it... a lot of people seem to be under the impression that when we got rid of the union jack and got our own flag, that we were now no longer a monarchy...
vpaan: forgive my ignorance, but if I can get ATI Catalyst drivers working in Arch Linux, why don't they work in Fedora?
Azalyn: vpaan: fedora may be using far more bleeding edge stuff... arch is supposed to be modern too...
maligor: Canada is a part of the British Commonwealth, heh
vpaan: Azalyn: from what I've gathered, I think that both use xorg 7.6
Azerthoth: Azalyn, actually I always looked at it as a curiosity, one monarch, 2 countries
Azalyn: but fedora is way more cutting edge. the goal of fedora is pretty much to have shit that was written like one week ago, released in a distro, so developers can play with it.
s_20: The_Muh: elizabeth II is also queen of canada, queen of new zealend, queen of australia....
s_20: the list goes on
vpaan: Azalyn: isn't arch rolling release? :p
Azalyn: i think that when she passes away... people might start to get a little more irritated at having a monarch. i mean she's like this nice old lady right now, so no one cares...
Azalyn: but no one is really looking forward to her replacement
s_20: who's it gonna be anyway?
maligor: I don't think the british crown actively plays any role in politics
Azalyn: vpaan: arch still has stable/unstable i believe though.
The_Muh: vpaan: yup. arch _is_ rolling all the time =)
The_Muh: Azalyn: arch have [testing] ... but in 1,5 years of using testing is was never unstable here...
Azalyn: s_20: prince charles is the heir.
The_Muh: arch ♥ pacman ♥
s_20: Azalyn: crap
s_20: no on likes him
s_20: his sons are popular but him.. jesus
s_20: he's like what.. 65?
Azerthoth: I dont think too many people would mind a painful death of several hours for him
Azalyn: i seriously doubt we'll want to have him as a leader even if it's just a formality and he doesn't 'really' lead.
s_20: Azalyn: what the fuck.. he's pulling an mbeki. "aids is fine, just eat some beetroot and you're all better"
Azalyn: so i think after elizabeth passes away, that will probably be the best timing to raise some hell and make some noise over eliminating the monarchy here.
Azalyn: not that i want her to pass away of course. but hey, everyone's time comes eventually. except for me of course, i'm going to discover immortality and live forever. :)
NigeyUK: sorry, linux still sucks
NigeyUK: until there is a ubiquitous linux environment instead of the fractured landscape that is currently linux, i'll pass and so will most other people with a real life
NigeyUK: what a TWAT!
The_Muh: NigeyUK: are you qouting someone?
NigeyUK: yeah, some weirdo on the enquirer blog comments page from april
NigeyUK: ello michaellarabel
Kano: hi michaellarabel , just tested pts on win
Kano: michaellarabel: it seem you know 0 about msi
Kano: michaellarabel: /qn
Kano: is quiet install
Kano: no user interaction
Kano: where is the xplane9 file?
Kano: also user unix2dos on your bat file!
Kano: specviewperf 10 fails md5...
andar: porting shit to windows is a pain in the ass
andar: cut him some slack
Kano: well you should know the basics about win installers...
christian_lappy: when you like to use them ?
Kano: because usually you think that pts runs without user interaction
Kano: i could run cmd as admin but then the installers many not prompt
alexandernst: NigeyUK: I have been using linux (only linux, no dual boot) since a lot of time
alexandernst: NigeyUK: and I must say that I agree with the person who said that.
alexandernst: NigeyUK: linux _really_ needs some more... ubiquitous
alexandernst: I know, I know. FOSS is about having alternatives. And I agree with that. But too much alternatives is just bad
alexandernst: Take as example Chakra (that arch-friendly distro). They are going to rewrite yaourt (pacman). Why? What for? Can't they just use some other existing package manager?
NigeyUK: i will just stick to my usual line .. some kind of standardisation within the popular distros would help alot.
alexandernst: They will be coding their own package manager and it will be in alpha stage for 1 year
NigeyUK: 1 package manager, 1 WM, default locations for files, instead of all this "we'll shove them where we want"
NigeyUK: im all for choice, but as default, lets get some core programs agreed upton etc etc ..
Azerthoth: NigeyUK, thats called windows
NigeyUK: no its not! grrr
alexandernst: Azerthoth: and what is linux?
alexandernst: Azerthoth: have you tried to make some app that will work on *all* distros?
NigeyUK: whats the harm in having the 3 big distros, all using the same wm by default? users can still choose what they want to run, but by default, have them all run gnome or kde..
alexandernst: Azerthoth: you have graphic deps, package deps, distro deps.
christian_lappy: the only way to solve this is ...
NigeyUK: half the time we dont help ourselves
alexandernst: Azerthoth: you end packaging everything needed by your app in the package of your app.
christian_lappy: do everything in ogl, o not use .deb .rpm ..use some installer and put all the ifles you need in on edir
NigeyUK: sorry if that upsets people, but its simply the truth
Azerthoth: alexandernst, stop talking while your only being an idiot
maligor: alexandernst, alternatives aren't going to go away
maligor: it's the chaos of the landscape
NigeyUK: id be happy to see fedora, ubuntu, arch, all use the same package manager for example
maligor: a part of the idea for the whole Free Software is have freedom to innovate new weird ways to use things
Azerthoth: standardization of all aspects is not the answer, because its still the wrong answer
alexandernst: walks away, as Azerthoth seems to have made a lot of apps that will work on all distros
christian_lappy: there *are* standards
Azerthoth: the reason for distros in the first place is breadth of choices
NigeyUK: Azerthoth, standardisation doesnt mean lack of free choice
Azerthoth: alexandernst, straw man, they all build the same
Ivanovic: there often is a *reason* for things being done differently
Azerthoth: there is a default system that works, its called source
alexandernst: Azerthoth: distrowatch. Tell me how are different the 5000 distros from the first 50 ?
alexandernst: (and I'm saying 5000 because I don't know the exact number of distros, but I know that there are really too much)
alexandernst: Azerthoth: I yeah. I'm gonna tell my grandmother to compile something because that will surely work out-of-the-box
Azerthoth: alexandernst, rather very different actually
Azerthoth: alexandernst, ah so you dont want a cross distro, you want a windows installer
Azerthoth: oh and you never know, whe might succeed where you have failed
alexandernst: I don't want nothing. I'm on arch and I'm just fine. I want something that will work for people that have no idea of compiling nor compilers, nor "wtf is that black thing with green letters".
christian_lappy: stop that kids ;-)
christian_lappy: alexandernst: ubuntu ? opensue ?
Azerthoth: alexandernst, you have no clue what you want because you have failed to clearly define it
alexandernst: christian_lappy: yeah, maybe... Those are more user-friendly distros.
Azerthoth: from what I can tell you want a windows installer for every version of linux
MPX: Azalyn, I wouldnt say that
MPX: Clearly, you'd have to learn to use a mouse
NigeyUK: what would be ideal is a distro that needs no intervention, but the nature of linux prevents that
christian_lappy: i have to admit that some kind of sound standard that *works* would help a lot
NigeyUK: yes, ditch pulseaudio ffs!
christian_lappy: use alsa everywhere
Azerthoth: who picks that? the ubuntards?
NigeyUK: am doing now, learnt the hard way lol
NigeyUK: Azerthoth, i dunno, someone needs to
Azerthoth: NigeyUK, ah 'they'
alexandernst: Azerthoth: in fact, nobody. That's the prob
Azerthoth: alexandernst, thats not a problem, its a strength
MPX: If making things standard is what's gonna make linux succeed...I'm all for it
MPX: If you don't like it, theres always source...Stick a Fork in it :D
NigeyUK: cmon, think about it, if the main system packages were all the same, gfx, sound, etc then we'd get more chance of game companies writing stuff for linux cause theyre not gonna get hit with so many variants to support, its a dev knightmare for them
Modplan: Go too far to the extreme with standardisation you lock out innovation. If you go too far with no standardisation you end up with a mess
Modplan: standards should be implemented where and when they make sense
christian_lappy: linux sound is a mess it looks like
MPX: NigeyUK, what about dynamically linked libraries?
alexandernst: Azerthoth: linux must have only one audio server that will *eventually* have everything.
MPX: java.so pointing to openjdk and whatnot :D
Modplan: like OpenGL, package formats, file formats, etc.
NigeyUK: MPX, dont get me started on libs! lol
alexandernst: Azerthoth: till now we have alsa that have good and bad things, pa same thing, oss same thing
Azerthoth: hahah, call me when you reach drinking age
MPX: Alsa don't work for me
MPX: Pulseaudio does though....funny :D
DonScott: 1 sound manager to rule them all that is Opensourced
Modplan: Alsa is standard for Linux AFAIK
NigeyUK: other way round for me mpx lol
Azerthoth: we have alsa and oss4
MPX: I know NigeyUK ...
NigeyUK: well, pulse works fine for everything except games
MPX: I'm one of the few lucky bastards :D
Modplan: alsa is driver, pulse is user stuff (very bascially as far as I understand it)
Modplan: they are not mutually exclusive
NigeyUK: very bad lag, so killed it for alsa
Azerthoth: NigeyUK, pulse is a wrapper, thats it
christian_lappy: alsa simply works
MPX: Alsa gives me a minute lag (no joke)
NigeyUK: dam dude :/
christian_lappy: MPX: which card ?
MPX: Crackling too!...Pulse works for me though
MPX: Onboard audio on m4a79t deluxe mobo...asus
Azerthoth: pulse is a wrapper, not a sound architecture
NigeyUK: Azerthoth, i thought pulse ran independant to alsa ?
MPX: mmmmm wraps...
Azerthoth: NigeyUK, its a wrapper on alsa, thats it
christian_lappy: Azerthoth: so pulse->alsas->dhw ?
Modplan: Azerthoth, not true
NigeyUK: hmm thats a bit buggered up then
Azerthoth: Modplan, yeah, it is
Modplan: *real* information on pulse + alsa http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/when-pa-and-when-not.html
Modplan: finding moar links....
MPX: I was about to call "chickfight" but then I realised, chicks prolly stay as far away as they can from this place :D
Azerthoth: Modplan, that says nothing that contradicts my statement
christian_lappy: we need ogl+a standard sound+standar system for input
Modplan: like I said, looking through mah links
Azalyn: christian_lappy: there is one..
Azerthoth: good luck, read them before linking them though
Azalyn: it's mostly for games. allows 3d audio.
Azalyn: but in theory you could use it for anything..
christian_lappy: using what as backend ?
Azalyn: whatever the driver uses on the system in question...
Azalyn: in windows it uses directsound i believe.
Azalyn: in linux it uses alsa.
Modplan: I wanted to list a bunch of resources, not one
christian_lappy: if it isn't inszalled ?
MPX: Says it's a sound server :D
NigeyUK: see this proves my point lol
Modplan: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/jeffrey-stedfast.html titled "Pulse Audio FUD"
MPX: I thought padsp was the wrapper point
MPX: But then again, I gots no clue :D
christian_lappy: why not ditch everything else than alsa
Modplan: christian_lappy because you need more than just alsa (see above link)
christian_lappy: devs would know what to use
NigeyUK: remind me never to write an article on linux standardisation :P
christian_lappy: basically, in year 2010 we should not need to talk about sound..it should simply work !
alexandernst: NigeyUK: whatever people say, linux needs some, so write it :p
NigeyUK: id be classed as a heretic! lol
NigeyUK: and +1 for christian_lappy
Modplan: Sound in Linux is just Alsa + Pulse. That's about it
alexandernst: Modplan: what about if I can't do alsa?
MPX: OSS also works for me :)
alexandernst: audio should be *something* that will work on every pc
alexandernst: for everyone
alexandernst: on every config
Modplan: tell that to driver writers
christian_lappy: in win in does :-(
Modplan: and software developers
Modplan: who'd have to test every config in the universe
MPX: Sure, and pigs can fly if you kick them hard enough....same with devs, they need a kick in the right direction
MPX: Everything is "Made for Windows!" these days....
alexandernst: Modplan: well... if that makes it work, then yes, it should be tested on every config.
Modplan: That's impossible
christian_lappy: all those sound devs should work together to make the best possible solution
Modplan: the *only* reason WIndows works as well as it does is because hardware vendors support it and provide their own drivers
MPX: Well, I like the idea that I think Canon, Nikon, Sony Ericcson and Nokia (I think) are going for
christian_lappy: highly doubt that
MPX: Universal chargers. You only need one and it will fit on every product
MPX: That ofcourse would mean death to the adlib and soundblaster :P Oh wait...
Azalyn: windows works less than most people think it does. do you think microsoft would have made whql if the situation on windows was ideal?
Azalyn: they had plenty of issues with third party driver vendors.
Azalyn: making shitty drivers
Azalyn: so they needed a certification program. and now they made it even worse starting with vista or win7 or whatever, i forgot where... now driver signing with whql certification will be mandatory.
Azalyn: and you won't be able to install non-whql drivers at all i believe.
Azalyn: which means even after making that program, they probably still had problems, so they had to go ahead and make it mandatory.
Azalyn: this is why i get pissed when people say we should allow proprietary drivers on linux, these people have no fucking clue what we'd be getting ourselves into if we did that.
maligor: but enforcing it brings about secondary issues
Azalyn: it would be a nightmare.
Azalyn: these hardware vendors can't even support their hardware properly on windows, and we should just trust them to support linux? their linux support would be worse.
Azalyn: people point to nvidia, but honestly, let's face it, nvidia is the exception to the rule. and even their shit isn't fool proof.
NigeyUK: maybe, but it cant be any worse than reverse engineering
maligor: Azalyn, them?
Azalyn: opensource drivers on the other hand are almost always consistently rock solid.
maligor: Azalyn, actually imo nvidia is dreadful
Azalyn: NigeyUK: that's the point... YES. IT. CAN.
Azalyn: reverse engineering = *the* solution.
maligor: Azalyn, and opensource drivers aren't consistently rock solid
Modplan: proprietary drivers are a fall back for when you lack the means or possibility for it to be handled by OSS drivers
maligor: Azalyn, nvidia has a 10MB blob in your kernel space
maligor: Azalyn, it's bigger than your kernel
NigeyUK: reverse engineering takes a huge amount of time, sometimes we're lucky to get a driver that has basic functionality because reverse engineering takes so dam long
Azalyn: no driver is better than a shitty driver.
Azalyn: a shitty driver means that instead of just telling the user up front that their hardware is unsupported, we get their hopes up by telling them there's a driver available
Azalyn: then they use it, it explodes in their face..
Azalyn: and how do you think they feel about the "linux experience" when that happens?
NigeyUK: a bit better than the NO linux experience because half of theyre hardware doesnt even work!
Modplan: the days when my USB broadcom wi-fi didn't work...that was fun
Azalyn: notice how apple doesn't support a fuckload of hardware out there, because they too only support what they want to. the difference is they they clearly *tell* people what they support, and what they don't. and they say "if it's not supported, don't come crying to us"
Azalyn: and yet apple manages to succeed on the desktop just because of that subtle difference in *marketing*
maligor: no, they sell rubbish simply by force of marketing
maligor: apple used to have fantastic hardware
ryan22: the problem is linux devs have a somewhat acceptence of half-working drivers
Modplan: the advantage apple has is in not trying to ape Windows in trying to be the "I'll run on everything". Apples position as a cobined software + hardware vendor give them an advantage in situations like this
ryan22: like the fglrx drivers, the atheros drivers are an goog example
ryan22: hardware support needs to be all or nithing
ryan22: users dont want to think about how their hardware is supported
maligor: what's half working with fglrx?
ryan22: they just want their hardware supported
Azalyn: ryan22: eh, the kernel devs don't really accept those at all.
ryan22: no xv support
Azalyn: it is distributions that accept them
NigeyUK: oh the fun i had with atheros drivers on my laptop..lol
maligor: fglrx has xv support
ryan22: it looks crap compared to the xv support in the radeon drivers
ryan22: litterally the output is staticy and washed out
ryan22: and theres no v-sync
christian_lappy: guys, i'm off, its avatar blue-ray time :-)
Azalyn: kernel devs are against binary blobs (firmware is acceptable, but that is a different story altogether)
maligor: I haven't seen any difference between fglrx and radeon with colours
NigeyUK: cya later christian_lappy :)
maligor: but I have a calibrated display and I don't use XV adjustments
ryan22: its their i tested it a couple of weeks ago
Azalyn: [13:55:01] cmon, think about it, if the main system packages were all the same, gfx, sound, etc then we'd get more chance of game companies writing stuff for linux cause theyre not gonna get hit with so many variants to support, its a dev knightmare for them
Azalyn: as for this...
Azalyn: i'm not sure where you get the impression that it's different.
ryan22: and the ati devs wont it as xv is not a prioriuty
Azalyn: they are already more or less the same. the biggest difference between the distros is packaging
Azalyn: and there *are* standardizations between the distros. it's called LSB.
Azalyn: Linux Standard Base
ryan22: i think debian is becoming closer to a standard for desktop distros and red hat/suse for eterprise ones
ryan22: awesome pic
maligor: debian is the only true vein
Azalyn: suse and redhat may both use rpm, but their stuff is still very different.
ryan22: i honestly think thats whats going to happen
ryan22: desktop linux will be debian-based
maligor: I imagine debian would be quite popular in enterprise also
ryan22: enterprise linux will be rpm based
ryan22: its not due to support reasons
Azalyn: package manager standardization is not nearly as important or relevant as you make it out to be...
Modplan: doesn't LSB define RPM as standard?
Azalyn: the way i see it, package managers are there for the distribution's own internal system management, as well as any package available in the repositories.
Azalyn: third party packages need their own installation method
maligor: last time I used fedora, I managed to quite easily make it erase itself automatically
maligor: without intending to do so
Azalyn: either by using their own installer.. or perhaps something like autopackage, which is universal and not distro-dependent.
maligor: or erase some 200 packages from the system
maligor: yum's just plain rubbish imo
Azalyn: honestly, i don't like the way ubuntu breaks up one package into several different packages.. not sure if debian does it too, but if they do, then i don't like them doing it either. heh
Azalyn: also don't like inconsistent naming with upstream.
Azalyn: some of the naming conventions just make no sense.
Azalyn: or do not use upstream versioning syntax.
Ivanovic: Azalyn: there are cases where you can't use upstream versioning
ryan22: having common packages is great for work reuse though
Modplan: Azalyn: info for you https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment#Packaging
Ivanovic: Azalyn: eg in portage (gentoo) there are sometimes cases where upstream does not follow clear package naming standards that are applyable to all packages
ryan22: it allows multiple communties to bug-testing using a common delievery mechasism and platform
Ivanovic: best example: packages that include a date
Ivanovic: in gentoo the ebuild name does determin if it is more recent or not
ryan22: which greatly simplifies things
Ivanovic: if there is a date in the forumat YYYYMMDD it can be used easily, since it will be a higher version number
Ivanovic: if the package name does consist of DDMMYYYY though, things will likely not work
ryan22: i really like the idea of PPAs though
Azalyn: well, maybe that's a sign that we shouldn't use the filename or package name for versioning info... i mean that is dirty, hacky, and unreliable to begin with, who the hell came up with that idea anyways?
Azalyn: there should be metadata for that.
Azalyn: this is exactly why "standardizing" a package manager for all distros is a bad idea. i mean if that had happened with any of the current ones, we'd be stuck with a bad design that needs to be changed, but can't because it's "standard"
ryan22: Azalan: debian breaks up programs into different packages as some files are architecture independant
Azalyn: at least now the way is open for innovation.
Azalyn: and since there is no standard, they don't have to be intimidated about breaking anything
ryan22: i really like this package manger
ryan22: "Conary updates only those specific files in packages which need to be updated; this behavior minimizes bandwidth and time requirements for updating software packages"
Azalyn: yes i've read about conary before.
ryan22: it uses diffs instead downloading an entire new package when updating
Modplan: the thing that should be standardised (and has been) is the format (.deb, .rpm)
Modplan: delta rpms do the same thing ryan22
Azalyn: it's an interesting concept, but it may need to be refined a bit.
ryan22: is the implementation of delta rpms standardized though
StaDeSase: Can someone help with the running on phoronix on windows 7 ? i can install the tests but they won`t run
ryan22: the main point of having a common package format is package reuse
Azalyn: autopackage aims to solve that problem
Azalyn: i don't think reuse is a good goal for the distro package manager.
ryan22: which is really hard to do with rpm but pretty easy with debian
ryan22: to backport a debian package to ubuntu you just change one file
ryan22: one line in that file really
maligor: yeah, and be clear.. it's backporting
Azalyn: changing no line would be better. heh
ryan22: well you need to change that line as debian builds against a spec
ryan22: using pbuilder
ryan22: all the dependices of the release youre building against are downloaded and installed in a chroot
ryan22: and then packaged and the chroot is deleted
ryan22: its like cellular respiration
ryan22: very clean
ryan22: well im a distro maintainer so i have to find this stuff interesting :P
Azalyn: which one?
ryan22: infinityOS, its a tiny one at the moment
StaDeSase: can someone help me with some tests ?
Azalyn: oh, one of the many that NigeyUK thinks should disappear because there are too many distros.
ryan22: well i just use ppas and the ubuntu repos
Modplan: BURN DEBIAN, BURN IT ALL
andar: ah, that's the one that includes deluge by default
andar: good good
ryan22: very little redundant work
Azalyn: ryan22: you're an ENEMY, admit it.
Azalyn: you just want to make everyone suffer.
ryan22: im a lazy bastard so i use other ppls work when ever possible
DonScott: why is that a bad thing
ryan22: and i try to contribute back to ubuntu
ryan22: like im trying to get a ppa setup with xfce 4.6.2 for both karmic and lucid
ryan22: so everyone does have to wait for maverick :p
ryan22: code and work use is a good thing ;)
ryan22: well g2g
The_Muh: !pacman -R dots
The_Muh: wrong channel
mastertheknife: linux pwns
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: i prefer this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d50LfiPWWM&feature=related
The_Muh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d50LfiPWWM okay, its from novell, but it rocks
The_Muh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDOL7_7DB7k awesome
mastertheknife: Ivanovic: there are actually 3 of those from Novell
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: i know
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: and personally i think that they are really well done
mastertheknife: Ivanovic: yeah :)
christian_lappy: damn, avatar is a great movie
christian_lappy: but my 42inhc is toooooooo small
MPX: Right well...after I saw it in theatres...I wasn't too sure if I had just witnessed the reincarnation of Pocahontas :P
christian_lappy: MPX: :P
christian_lappy: MPX: MUCH better than 2012
MPX: I haven't watched 2012 and have no interest to see it
MPX: I can't imagine it being any worse then transformers 2 though
Daekdroom: I haven't watched either.
christian_lappy: MPX: yeah, it isn't asworse as tf2 but nearly
dandel: hmm... working on a few patches for wine (adding a few of the unsupported render formats to wine)
mastertheknife: dandel: thats awesome :)
mastertheknife: dandel: to contribute to wine, is it needed to reverse engineer windows?
mastertheknife: but lets say i want to implement a windows function which is currently stub, i will have to know how the windows one works
mastertheknife: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE4zF36dPxE :/
MPX: dandel: Awesome :D:D
dandel: ati1n is simply luminance compression (strangely)
mastertheknife: dandel: I guess the patch you are working on is mostly to fix ATi issues?
mastertheknife: or nvidia too?
dandel: I'm doing patches that should work on both ati and nvidia
MPX: Please, focus on ati :)
MPX: Will the next wine release be out in 4 days or so?
The_Muh: gn8 folks
Kano: who is going to linuxtag?
LinuxDonald: maybe when you mean the linuxtag in berlin
LinuxDonald: live´s in berlin :)
Kano: sure it is in berlin
dandel: MPX, you know how to build and apply patches right?
Wicked: utorrent on linux?
Azerthoth: more torrent clients than you can beat with a restraining order
Wicked: yea. but last i had heard utorrent devs did not want too or have time..or something like that...but it seems it has now been accepted and work has started on porting it to linux.
Wicked: could be cool. could suck.
Rednaxela: Funny enough I already see a utorrent build...
Kano: ktorrent is fine for me
Azerthoth: yup, ktorrent is just fine
r4: utorrent on linux? i saw they put something on github
r4: but thats it
ryan22: deluge is nice
r4: i like ktorrent but i dont run kde so it brings in a ton of dependencies
ryan22: r4: try deluge. it has an awesome webinerface too
ryan22: better than utorrent's
Kano: r4: oh that will hurt ;)
Rednaxela: is pretty content with the nice and simple Transmission
ryan22: eh transmission is hard on my network
ryan22: the interface is nice though
Rednaxela: Hard on your network in what way?
r4: i tried deluge didnt care for it
Kano: its less cpu intensive than vuze
ryan22: it would bring down the ping time back time on my netowrk
Rednaxela: What *isn't* more cpu intensive than vuze?
r4: one feature that i demand is being able to rename the folders that a torrent uses and still be able to seed.
r4: very few clients can actually do that
ryan22: my rommate could tell by the lag when i was using trnasmission, even with it throttled with limted connections
Rednaxela: Heh, I'm rather annoyed with the internet connection I have, because even a single HTTP download brings packet loss over 10% and ping time over half a second
r4: and that are accepted on certain trackers
ryan22: transmission is a bit know for being aggresive
Rednaxela: Isn't upload/download limits sufficent for accounting for how agressive a client is?
ryan22: you need to be able to limit the number of connections and the number of slots
Rednaxela: Ahh yes, that
ryan22: if a client just sends out 3232243 connections, it will get nowhere and swap your network
Rednaxela: I've never used Transmissions on popular enough torrents for such to become an issue really
ryan22: i have it set to automatically download with RSS feeds, which often has 10000 leeches
ryan22: if i dont throttle back the client, bad things happen ;)
ryan22: man i love bittorrent with RSS feeds, it's like streaming video, but better :P
Rednaxela: As an aside, that reminds me of how I have from time to time wished I had a bittorrent client that allowed weak/loose preferences for "prefer start of of this file first" or similar
ryan22: yep deluge can do that
ryan22: well it has priorities
ryan22: im pretty sure transmission has them too, but they're a bit hidden from what ir emeber
Rednaxela: Well, I don't mean priorities between different files in the download ;)
Rednaxela: I mean gradiented priority within a file
Wicked: deluge reports bad data..so if you use private trackers....its not that great a client.
Wicked: i used deluge for about a year and a half...but then some of the trackers i use banned it and i was forced to use a new client.
Rednaxela: Deluge dulged them too much eh? :P
ryan22: might be something you turn off
ryan22: i think you can prioritize the begining and end of a file in deluge
ryan22: but i think transmission has that feature too
Rednaxela: Last I checked it didn't I'm pretty sure
Rednaxela: Nope, just checked. All it has is setting whole-file high/normal/low priorities
ryan22: ya theres a prference in both deluge and utorrent to give priority to the nds of files so you can preview them
Rednaxela: Here's one thing that I think might be neat: A feature to automatically increase priority of files that are closer to completed
Rednaxela: in other words, a preference for file completion
ryan22: i think bittorrent does the opposite of that through the protocol
ryan22: just to spread the load
Rednaxela: Somewhat, but it gives room to prioritize to some degree
Rednaxela: Really, it would in theory be possible for a bittorrent client to have a rule that forces in-order download
Rednaxela: Though that would be suicidal for performance
ryan22: ya bittorrent streaming will never take off due to logisitics
ryan22: its just not a real-time technology
Rednaxela: ryan22: Eh, well, one could have a hybrid system. Something closer to traditional streaming but when there is a significant buffer, soaking up extra bandwidth with bittorrent-like activity in the not-yet-downloaded regions
ryan22: Rednaxela: it could. but i think stuff downloading in the background, ready to be played the next day, is good enough
ryan22: bittorrent and rrs were made for each other :p
Rednaxela: For many purposes yes, but not the purposes for which people do stream things :P
ryan22: its great replacemnt for pvr and movie rentals. not so much live tv
ryan22: every good technology has to have a flaw i guess :P
Rednaxela: Ahh yeah